Willbender still needs a nerf [Merged]

[Daquan.2387]

I think the biggest things Ive seen playing the WB are:

1.  Rangers cant stand from 1800 and pew pew anymore without consequences
2. Thieves cant gank and then try to run away now without consequences
3. A WB can easily take down another WB (50/50)
4. Ele is still broken

I would also like to point out that the video(s) in question from DarkFlopy are more about superior gameplay and terrain abuse than anything else.   Bravo to you my good sir!

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, DarkFlopy.8197 said:

Well it's like a 50/50 gamble, if you manage to escape before they notice what is going on, mostly they notice the pet first and nuke It to orbit while I escape.

But the main reason I don't show the end of the engagements is because I try to sync the gameplay to the music and showing the entire engage might be way too long, won't fit the sync and mostly no one wants to see that (feedback from viewers over the year).

Well, I do main Ranger so no hate on the gameplay.

I'm just trying to add the general concessive that Willbender is OP at the moment. I guess I'm not hugely familiar with its skills and the Meta build hence not knowing it's not normal to run the shield.

[Mikhael.2391]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:23 AM, XenesisII.1540 said:

Willbenders have more mobility and defenses than all those classes, while also being able to burst. Mirage had Jaunt, 3 charges 20s cooldown, it was nerfed multiple times to 50% damage, 30s cooldown, and 2 charges in a year. I have yet to see any type of balance like that on Willbender almost two years in.

You play Willbender you get carried, just like everyone cried about Condi Mirage.

/taps watch, we're still waiting on Willbender and Harbinger balance.

You did not reply to what I asked, 

Dont reply and wine about WB and how OP it is again, EVERYONE knows this, just tell me and other guardians the magical build spec/gear for DH or Core that works to be AS effective for solo/roaming in WvW as either core guard or DH with the disengage and survival potential ALMOST on pair with the likes of thiefs mesmers rangers warrior mechanics etc etc??  

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, Daquan.2387 said:

I think the biggest things Ive seen playing the WB are:

1.  Rangers cant stand from 1800 and pew pew anymore without consequences
2. Thieves cant gank and then try to run away now without consequences
3. A WB can easily take down another WB (50/50)
4. Ele is still broken

I would also like to point out that the video(s) in question from DarkFlopy are more about superior gameplay and terrain abuse than anything else.   Bravo to you my good sir!

I will say kind of countering my own Willbender OP point but I'm no longer being one shot by an invisible Scrapper. We have come a long way from those days, I guess WB is the next elite on the chopping block since the "Sic em" Soulbeast pig Maul got nerfed (along with Smokescale too)

[XenesisII.1540]

38 minutes ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

You did not reply to what I asked, 

Dont reply and wine about WB and how OP it is again, EVERYONE knows this, just tell me and other guardians the magical build spec/gear for DH or Core that works to be AS effective for solo/roaming in WvW as either core guard or DH with the disengage and survival potential ALMOST on pair with the likes of thiefs mesmers rangers warrior mechanics etc etc??  

youtube.com

I'm not going to research builds for you.

Just because you think you personally can't roam on Core or Dragonhunter or Firebrand doesn't excuse that Willbender needs to be OP, every class has this problem, every class has also had OP specs, and every class has had their OP specs toned down over the years. Willbenders and Harbingers are next in line for a very long time now, it's been almost two years. You can't handle being criticized for playing Willbender, that's your problem, I'm not the only one that thinks they're broken OP. They should have never been given all that mobility with all those defenses and burst potential, period.

Insert your Willbender confused emotes -->

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Well, I do main Ranger so no hate on the gameplay.

I'm just trying to add the general concessive that Willbender is OP at the moment. I guess I'm not hugely familiar with its skills and the Meta build hence not knowing it's not normal to run the shield.

Best option is play it and then come back and review. You might see it in different ways. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Dont reply and wine about WB and how OP it is again, EVERYONE knows this

Hi! Welcome back. Everyone? What is your criteria here, you have my attention. I appreciate we didn't agree on one shots but you have once again made me question, "Everyone". Since you post various videos, which classes and builds are you are having the most issues with against Willies? I played Willie some to see what was what to help my various builds consider it. I have seen both good and bad ones, be that across all classes personally. 

1 hour ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

, just tell me and other guardians the magical build spec/gear for DH or Core that works to be AS effective for solo/roaming in WvW as either core guard or DH with the disengage and survival potential ALMOST on pair with the likes of thiefs mesmers rangers warrior mechanics etc etc??  

So the issue here is they ran away? Are you asking that all options to run away be nerfed? I admit I am terribad at thief since I agree. If I start a fight I think it needs to finish. That doesn't mean I played smart it means I didn't use the mechanics that were there. That also means when on builds that are meant to target run-aways I will stack options to catch. Willie is the the thief counter build that people have asked for. I disagree they are the be all end all on fast movers though and are death on wheels. I also disagree they dominate roaming. But if you want to build their ego please do since it will mean more to find while roaming on various builds.

[Mell.4873]

44 minutes ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Best option is play it and then come back and review. You might see it in different ways. 

I don't like Guardian. 

I only play Mesmer, Ranger and Revenant. I just get really good a select few classes and don't rely on the meta. Hense why you may have seen me with the duel main-hand Axes on Ranger in Gold 3. 

Edited January 2 by Mell.4873

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 minute ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't like Guardian. 

I only play Mesmer, Ranger and Revenant. I just get really good a select few classes and don't rely on the meta. Hense why you may have seen me with the duel main-hand Axes in Gold 3. 

All good, I don't play much sPvP now after they removed Amulets and removed sPvP as a WvW training ground. 

That to me was a bad idea as they promoted esports versus allowing it as an entry to WvW so players could create a build before they had to craft it.

sPvP used to allow players to pre-craft a build and practice rotations before they crafted it for WvW and use it there. Esports killed that option.

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't like Guardian. 

Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to counter it, personally I would still say play it so you can see it from the other side on what works and doesn't. Even if its with some guildmates in a Guild Hall arena to better understand it. Hope that helps.

[KrHome.1920]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Willie is the the thief counter build that people have asked for.

Even willbender fails against a deadeye that is competently played. Deadeye is apex predator in this game. I've seen duells of these specs where willbender looked incredibly pathetic.

That said: willbender just does what core guardian and dragonhunter did in the past in the playground that GW2 provided during these times. Jump in, burst hard, jump out. While doing so: cover the low health pool with blocks. Dragonhunter was a straight upgrade to core for that strategy and now willbender is a straight upgrade to dragonhunter. But if you learned how to beat these specs, then you will find counters to willbender pretty quickly.

• Don't play a marauder build unless you have tons of blocks yourself.
• Don't stand in its inital aoe stuff right after he jumped at you.
• Just run in circles until it finished placing its aoe stuff.
• Counterburst hard.
• The willbender will run out gas and try to disengage and come back when its burst skills are off cooldown.

[Aeolus.3615]

All silibenders should be using a bow. 

Type will bender bow in YouTube if u don't know it.

Edited January 2 by Aeolus.3615

[Mell.4873]

14 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

• The willbender will run out gas and try to disengage and come back when its burst skills are off cooldown.

This is how I fight them to but I always get annoyed since the engagement is on their terms so alot of the time they just run away and you just have to wait and pray the next burst does not get you. 

It feels somewhat similar to fighting Renegade in WvW. 

[apharma.3741]

On 12/27/2023 at 11:03 PM, Nanoir.2315 said:

Gotta love how nerf x class always ends up with people trying to make reaper look op or too good.

Not even going to bother trying to figure what point you're trying to make here.

This pretty much sums it up. Unless your opponent is constantly running away and you somehow keep lifeforce up, compared to everything else you won't keep up.

I think we've all realized reading isn't your forte.
I'm not making out that reaper is too good, pointing out it's as mobile as everything that isn't completely busted like thief, willbender, soulbeast/druid and a few other niche builds. Do not undervalue Z axis teleportation.
TrollingDemiGod argues everything is a slug compared to those, putting aside the hyperbole, I do not exclusively see the hypermobile builds and often do see engineers, ele's, other necro's (where mobility is almost 1:1, exception harbinger) revenants and very commonly non WB guardians which reaper competes with very well mobility wise.

Is Willbender broken in WvW? Yes, it has burst and sustained damage, good regen and is probably the highest X/Y movement speed there is while having great defences and boon access.I doubt it will be nerfed though as it's a class favoured by the best and the best are devs tend to win.

[Mikhael.2391]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:38 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Hi! Welcome back. Everyone? What is your criteria here, you have my attention. I appreciate we didn't agree on one shots but you have once again made me question, "Everyone". Since you post various videos, which classes and builds are you are having the most issues with against Willies? I played Willie some to see what was what to help my various builds consider it. I have seen both good and bad ones, be that across all classes personally. 

So the issue here is they ran away? Are you asking that all options to run away be nerfed? I admit I am terribad at thief since I agree. If I start a fight I think it needs to finish. That doesn't mean I played smart it means I didn't use the mechanics that were there. That also means when on builds that are meant to target run-aways I will stack options to catch. Willie is the the thief counter build that people have asked for. I disagree they are the be all end all on fast movers though and are death on wheels. I also disagree they dominate roaming. But if you want to build their ego please do since it will mean more to find while roaming on various builds.

Dude you are misreading or misunderstanding, read the whole debate from beggining, I think WB is op yes as everyone but it is OP the same as the other classes also have specs that outperform to the point of near broken, so, ALL of them need nerfing hard.

and this person is complaining more about wb so I was asking, what else do we guardians play as efectively as wb and all the other op broken things or if he just wants guardian players to be reduced to depending on everyone else to hit and run or survive.

[Mikhael.2391]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:23 AM, XenesisII.1540 said:

youtube.com

I'm not going to research builds for you.

Just because you think you personally can't roam on Core or Dragonhunter or Firebrand doesn't excuse that Willbender needs to be OP, every class has this problem, every class has also had OP specs, and every class has had their OP specs toned down over the years. Willbenders and Harbingers are next in line for a very long time now, it's been almost two years. You can't handle being criticized for playing Willbender, that's your problem, I'm not the only one that thinks they're broken OP. They should have never been given all that mobility with all those defenses and burst potential, period.

Insert your Willbender confused emotes -->

Ok, so please myself and other guardians are waiting on that special builds, if you like you can even see my videos on how OP I am on core and DH at oneshoting (meme builds that do not really work for roam seriously). 

I d say next 24h should be enough for you to show a proper build for core and dh that does not have a video showing beatting people that are terrible and barely move.

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Dude you are misreading or misunderstanding, read the whole debate from beggining, I think WB is op yes as everyone but it is OP the same as the other classes also have specs that outperform to the point of near broken, so, ALL of them need nerfing hard.

I don't think I misread your words as you did it again. 'Everyone' thinks its OP. Keep it less of a blanket statement and wouldn't be such of an issue. I enjoy the videos but I dislike how players assume afterwards and the content gives them groupthink issues. As others have stated, and I agree with, the Socratic method is better when approaching issues but these days Groupthink applies more, and with video content people just assume on what's provided. I don't agree there.

Hence my question to you since you have now said that twice. I understand you are also implying other builds might be OP, I get that. You stated yourself in other threads you build toward glass. So is this a glass versus glass issue? Hence why I raise the issue. I appreciate content creators but when its all about takedowns and not other fights, forum posters tend to use those shots as see we need nerfs. That's were I see issues. We all got the 2020 nerf due to too many people not considering their builds and all the glass on glass interactions and we ended up with the great 2020 nerf patch. We can't use glass on glass as balance nor can we use overskilled player versus average players when considering balance. We need apples to apples. I have seen great WBs that will tear players up and I have seen terribad WBs that die in 1 v 5s. If they were dominate though, we would have nothing but them. This is where we disagree. Though personally after these types of posts see more Willies so all the better since it makes killing them all the easier on various builds. 

 

Edited January 4 by TheGrimm.5624

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

Ok, so please myself and other guardians are waiting on that special builds, if you like you can even see my videos on how OP I am on core and DH at oneshoting (meme builds that do not really work for roam seriously). 

I d say next 24h should be enough for you to show a proper build for core and dh that does not have a video showing beatting people that are terrible and barely move.

lol, so are you having issues with old Willie or not? You are saying you are OP on core and on DH, yet you said Willie is OP. Are you asking for general Guard nerfs here? I already made the point above about all of our nerf bats due to the 2020 patch so not going to cover that again. So you want to clarify?

[CutesySylveon.8290]

I've been using Willy again since the hammer buffs and I think the only real issue is RF recharging all virtue CDs. This doesn't have nearly as much impact on core guardian or DH as it does Willy. This, imo, is the biggest culprit when it comes to the level of disengage Willy has because it's 4 skills you can cycle through that all move moderate to long distances, and 3 of them have defensive aspects to them with F2's evade (possible cleanse) and F3's stab and stun break. It also allows more time to let weapon mobility skills come off CD.

Does the spec do a lot of damage? Absolutely, I've done 20k+ with Mighty Blow - Banish - Mighty Blow alone, and Crashing Courage lets the Greatsword and Whirling Light builds sustain a lot more than you expect when they hop into a group, but I'd think twice about doing that if I couldn't just use 'Stand You're Ground'+ RF to zoom away if I don't kill anyone. 

Judges Intervention is a whole different story and isn't exclusive to Willy.

[Mikhael.2391]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:19 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I don't think I misread your words as you did it again. 'Everyone' thinks its OP. Keep it less of a blanket statement and wouldn't be such of an issue. I enjoy the videos but I dislike how players assume afterwards and the content gives them groupthink issues. As others have stated, and I agree with, the Socratic method is better when approaching issues but these days Groupthink applies more, and with video content people just assume on what's provided. I don't agree there.

Hence my question to you since you have now said that twice. I understand you are also implying other builds might be OP, I get that. You stated yourself in other threads you build toward glass. So is this a glass versus glass issue? Hence why I raise the issue. I appreciate content creators but when its all about takedowns and not other fights, forum posters tend to use those shots as see we need nerfs. That's were I see issues. We all got the 2020 nerf due to too many people not considering their builds and all the glass on glass interactions and we ended up with the great 2020 nerf patch. We can't use glass on glass as balance nor can we use overskilled player versus average players when considering balance. We need apples to apples. I have seen great WBs that will tear players up and I have seen terribad WBs that die in 1 v 5s. If they were dominate though, we would have nothing but them. This is where we disagree. Though personally after these types of posts see more Willies so all the better since it makes killing them all the easier on various builds. 

 

To simplify, imo WB is low risk high reward on almost any gear build used. Too much out of jail free cards with too much burst potential and tools. Basically has litle counters same as the other OP( imo again) classes/builds. No class should be able to junp into the midle of outnumbered 5+ and able to get a kill or more and still run away. Even if all 5 suck. (IMO again)

[Mikhael.2391]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:27 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

lol, so are you having issues with old Willie or not? You are saying you are OP on core and on DH, yet you said Willie is OP. Are you asking for general Guard nerfs here? I already made the point above about all of our nerf bats due to the 2020 patch so not going to cover that again. So you want to clarify?

Dude. My opinion is the same since beggining of this thread. I would prefer to solo roam as core and DH but due to everything outperforming these specs myself and most guardians are forced into WB. I like Wb but I like core and dh more. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

13 hours ago, Mikhael.2391 said:

To simplify, imo WB is low risk high reward on almost any gear build used. Too much out of jail free cards with too much burst potential and tools. Basically has litle counters same as the other OP( imo again) classes/builds. No class should be able to junp into the midle of outnumbered 5+ and able to get a kill or more and still run away. Even if all 5 suck. (IMO again)

I appreciate the reply and clarification. I am also not a fan of runaway builds either, it just encourages me to create more counters. Do I think Willie has counters, yes. But I can appreciate your point on risk versus reward in light of your replies. Based on the thread, would I call them BiS? Currently still no but we can agree to disagree there.  Thanks for sharing more details on your view point and I will wish you good hunting!

[Mikhael.2391]

9 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

I appreciate the reply and clarification. I am also not a fan of runaway builds either, it just encourages me to create more counters. Do I think Willie has counters, yes. But I can appreciate your point on risk versus reward in light of your replies. Based on the thread, would I call them BiS? Currently still no but we can agree to disagree there.  Thanks for sharing more details on your view point and I will wish you good hunting!

Glad I managed to clarify my intent and point. Thanks for the clean chat.

[ArchonWing.9480]

What's really going on is Anet has a tendency to nerf core classes instead of nerfing OP elites.

They actually did nerf guardian lately, but it was a core trait, and only used by some WB builds, and not the one people hate. I bet most don't even know what it is as a result.

It also hurt non WB builds too. So basically it did a whole lot of nothing but push people towards whatever the meta is.

Unfortunately they will always push people towards the newest elites because $$$. I mean that's inevitable but imo things have been very cynical lately.

Edited January 6 by ArchonWing.9480

[Grand Marshal.4098]

It's amazing how the builds used by WB get buffed and they receive things like, reduced aftercast and increased hitbox scaling on weapons. 

Meanwhile to give any of this on warrior, it must be an omega patch every half a decade and then it's still probably gonna be trash.

A willbender can deal 10 times the damage any warrior build can while being aggressive and not losing out on any defense, since blinds/blocks/stab/resi and perfect tagging port movement, allow you to do what another class has been struggling to do as it's defining mechanic since launch.

It's pretty evident how @Roy Marks.7689 and @Cal Cohen.2358love WB more than your average class.

[urd.8306]

So, the important question is:

What's the counter?