WvW are you supposed to just die???

[Firefly.5982]

Here's what I find works when we are 10v30:

Know what you are fighting. Is it a comped group? A cloud? Do they have a tag? What are they running? What are the counters to their comp? E.g. if they rely on killing in choke points, avoid choke points and lure them into the open to pick them off.

If you are facing a very tight group, stay away from the main group, period. If you are facing a cloud, focus down edge targets. Call target, take target, focus kill target.

Kill stragglers, runbacks, and the tail. Learn how to flank! Run a build that is made for this sort of fight (either comped or your individual build).

Have some of you bait and lure them away from their siege, the rest of you kills their siege - rinse and repeat. Build counter siege (ballistas are great for destroying siege). Make sure to stab, reflect, and heal/aegis/etc. for the people manning your siege!!! Also, you can hold objectives longer when one or two of you are in a golem...not something I personally enjoy doing but it's a worthy tactic.

If they breach an objective, lure them back out and repair the wall/gate to keep them out to gain more time. If you can split them by locking some out and some in, you can kill one half...pretty fun :3

Bait, lure, pretend to run away, then turn the second they turn and kill the tail. Rinse and repeat.

Use the environment to your advantage - glide where they can't, use line of sight, bait stragglers behind a corner where your 10 are waiting etc. Be creative! Positioning is super important in WvW and once you learn where to stand, how to move, etc. this will become a lot easier.

Learn how to not die during their push. Use dodge/evade/block/invulnerable/stab/stunbreak/blink/stealth etc. to move through them when they push, or sidestep, or move out of sight until they turn - the right movement makes all the difference!

Or, instead of defending, go on the offense. You can either go somewhere completely different, hit the other color, find undefended objectives...OR you can try to attack one of their objectives to force them to defend that instead of staying on the objective they are trying to take from you. Timing is everything in WvW - learn the patterns and you will learn how to predict where they will go next, learn to read the map, the swords, OJs, RI timers, etc. and you'll know where to go when...to defend and to attack. Takes a while to get the hang of this but it's worth it!

And most importantly: HAVE FUN!!! Go into a 10v30 not expecting to kill all 30 and defend the objective. Go in with the goal of killing as many as possible, delaying them as much as possible, making them mad, and enjoying yourself 😄

Edited February 26 by Firefly.5982

[TheGrimm.5624]

7 minutes ago, Firefly.5982 said:

Here's what I find works when we are 10v30:

Know what you are fighting. Is it a comped group? A cloud? Do they have a tag? What are they running? What are the counters to their comp? E.g. if they rely on killing in choke points, avoid choke points and lure them into the open to pick them off.

If you are facing a very tight group, stay away from the main group, period. If you are facing a cloud, focus down edge targets. Call target, take target, focus kill target.

Kill stragglers, runbacks, and the tail. Learn how to flank! Run a build that is made for this sort of fight (either comped or your individual build).

Have some of you bait and lure them away from their siege, the rest of you kills their siege - rinse and repeat. Build counter siege (ballistas are great for destroying siege). Make sure to stab, reflect, and heal/aegis/etc. for the people manning your siege!!! Also, you can hold objectives longer when one or two of you are in a golem...not something I personally enjoy doing but it's a worthy tactic.

If they breach an objective, lure them back out and repair the wall/gate to keep them out to gain more time. If you can split them by locking some out and some in, you can kill one half...pretty fun :3

Bait, lure, pretend to run away, then turn the second they turn and kill the tail. Rinse and repeat.

Use the environment to your advantage - glide where they can't, use line of sight, bait stragglers behind a corner where your 10 are waiting etc. Be creative! Positioning is super important in WvW and once you learn where to stand, how to move, etc. this will become a lot easier.

Learn how to not die during their push. Use dodge/evade/block/invulnerable/stab/stunbreak/blink/stealth etc. to move through them when they push, or sidestep, or move out of sight until they turn - the right movement makes all the difference!

Or, instead of defending, go on the offense. You can either go somewhere completely different, hit the other color, find undefended objectives...OR you can try to attack one of their objectives to force them to defend that instead of staying on the objective they are trying to take from you. Timing is everything in WvW - learn the patterns and you will learn how to predict where they will go next, learn to read the map, the swords, OJs, RI timers, etc. and you'll know where to go when...to defend and to attack. Takes a while to get the hang of this but it's worth it!

And most importantly: HAVE FUN!!! Go into a 10v30 not expecting to kill all 30 and defend the objective. Go in with the goal of killing as many as possible, delaying them as much as possible, making them mad, and enjoying yourself 😄

Quoting for good measure. +1

[Wolfofdivinity.6251]

Death is the last great adventure we have left. -- Cappin' Hook

[nosleepdemon.1368]

18 hours ago, prototypedragon.1406 said:

I mean they could just build a trebuchet to take out the arrowcarts right🤯? last I checked most towers have camps nearby to carry supply from?  Even quicker with the handy dandy warclaw🤔. And at least then there was a incentive to defend. And if a zerg dies to arrowcarts it's not on the zerg but the commander for making the decision to run into AOE without clearing siege? Isn't world versus world technically guild versus guild hence the name of the game? ( Granted wvw is split amongst various levels of game play zerging, roaming, scouting, havoc, f2p accounts pulling tactivators  on opposing teams side)Not to bash on roaming but I mean at least back then in terms of defending it has to be better then this boonball mess unless you counter boonball with equal boonball the roamers still shall get ran over anyway so it's not like it makes any difference still while against greater numbers your better off roleplaying a tower guard then actually fighting with no ability to counter or at least being able hold your ground for back up to arrive if it ever does?

Yeah there WAS a fair few more steps to taking a tower before, unlike now where you can just poop catapults onto the ground in visual range of the walls and smash a corner. Trebs used to get put up in easily defensible locations and slowly knock down enough carts to allow the attackers in. Murder ball tactics nowadays are ... ok, I suppose? I don't hate the current state of wvw but it certainly seemed more tactical in earlier iterations. Mind you, Warclaws also trivialized the mode greatly. My biggest issue with everyone clumping together is that the game has huge issues rendering all the clutter, SM 3 way battles become slideshows for me.

[Ashen.2907]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:38 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I think you're just slightly confused, because running is a nuanced topic in high level ZvZ/GVG, and you probably have one version of "running" in your head where as GVG people have different ideas of what running means. I'm going to explain the differences, and it will give you and others some insight into these tactics which will benefit everyone who reads this when they play ZvZ:

Context

The most optimal configuration in WvW is the Ball configuration. In order to maintain a ball configuration, requires synchronization of movement speed and support between players, and this synchronization makes the group slower to move in general. Good groups will be able to maintain high speeds, while staying in a ball configuration and i'll expand on that later. I'll also mention apriori that clouding =/= running. 

Full Retreating

The first thing is that running is almost always tantamount to full wiping because when you run away in full retreat you leave ball configuration and enter line configuration, which is probably the worst kind of configuration you can be in...the enemy will chase you and many of your people will die, and at a certain point there really is no "winning" the fight if you've lost too many people if you decide to fight back again. Line configuration occurs when 1) movement skills and support are staggered (by position) within the group, and 2) people respond to the commanders calls at different times, resulting in further staggering of player positions, and this accelerates the positional differences caused by point 1. 3) Finally folks are hit by a enemy players, keeps them in combat speed, rather than ooc speed, and then finally you are hit by a CC and eventually death as the zerg swallows you.

Fake Retreating

The idea of running away, creates a line configuration (a tail). But in a retreat, your zerg is not the only one that becomes a tail, so does the enemy. the nature of chasing is like the "inverse" version of retreating in that, "a chase" will turn the zerg from a ball to a line configuration for roughly the same reasons where 1) movement buffs, are staggered by position 2) people respond to the commanders calls at different times, leading to further staggering of positions, and further differentials of movement synchronization. organized groups will use this greed to do what's called a "reverse push" which is when the group fakes a retreat, and then reverses. Keep in mind that being in line configuration is equivalent to being in a choke, except worse, because at least in a choke, you can still be in a ball configuration to disperse damage, where as in a line you no longer have dispersal of damage with your team all spread out in this line. 

The way to tell the difference between a full retreat, and a fake retreat (which will inevitably be followed by a reverse push) is that a fake retreat will often not compromise their ball configuration, they will still be a tight ball while in "retreat." This mental game puts the other zerg into a position to enter line configuration, and when the enemy is spaghetti enough, boom reverse push and you collect your bags. 

That's why if you ever see a commander say "Don't chase" its usually for a darn good reason. Most pugs fail to listen to calls and its almost always 99% of the time followed by this reverse push and the wipe of said pugs. I honestly do get a huge laugh at this every time it happens because i will say it like 20 seconds before they do it because exp commanders and gvg players can tell the difference in behavior between an actual retreat and a fake retreat (as mentioned before, looking how balled up the group is running away, and observing how they might be funneling players into a confined choke area, with the so called "retreat").

The same "don't run" command is also for a pretty darn good reason too...like stated above, running away is the same as entering this line configuration which just leads to the death of everybody. A good tag will make the call to run away (full retreat) upon positioning themselves first to minimize the number of potential losses, and potential tail creation they might induce as a result...so for instance a commander that yells "run away" in the middle of the skirmish is a bad commander because most of the people in the fight are not going to immediately respond to the commanders call...it will create a tail and many people will die in that scenario. Where as a good commander will only yell a "run away" command after doing damage to a choke, zerg on the other side, to put as much distance between the zerg and them as possible, and telling your group to stick tight so that when you do full run, everybody is together and not staggered, here is a diagram example of that.

Lastly, if your commander is "too fast" compared to the group, your commander needs to slow down. i've seen this happen with some commanders...either just straight up running without stopping every now and again, or using leap skills and teleports, which is obviously bad because not every build is using a leap or movement skill. If your commander is playing in such a way that creates a tail all the time they will constantly lose, and its worth pointing this out to them. A good commander will take micro pauses every now and again.

Havoc

Havoc groups, take advantage of these tactics...naturally so, because they have less numbers than the enemy. Although Havocs don't have the numbers to reverse push, they can force zergs into greed mode for them to chase by "fake retreating"...allowing another force on the other side to eat their tail...or vise versa where the havoc eats the tail. This is definitely what Grimm is talking about in terms of playing mind games with the enemy to get them to behave in a way that disadvantages themselves, like entering line configuration. Keep in mind as well, that doing lots of AOE damage and preassure from a distance, is alsoa way to invoke commanders to take action and move...so HAVOC groups have many tools in the tool box to get zergs to react and behave in a way that can eventually lead to bags.

What Grimm is also alluding to here is that havoc and outnumbered fighting is a dying art because the game has made it harder and harder over time, for smaller groups of players to make large contributions to fights where small numbers can defeat larger numbers...that includes mounts (which makes it easier for new players to catch up to their zerg ooc), balance, target cap changes and the list goes on. 

Final Tip

How to chase without exposing a greed tail.

Usually a good commander, can read a fight a few moments before the next decision is made by the opposing zerg. If your commander runs forward (or just gives the command in coms) to run to an enemy portal or tower, he is preemptively compromising the escape route of the enemy zerg. When the zerg runs away, usually back to an objective that they own, the chase you would have done, has "already happened" and your tail, is ahead of the enemy zerg in some sense. Usually these commands will happen shortly after a sufficient amount of enemy downs are wiped out.

I hope this post was helpful in not just addressing this confusion you guys were having, but also in putting out generally good information about higher level tactics in the game mode. Feel free to add on to it. Cheers.

I play a lot of table top war games, everything from old Avalon Hill to Warhammer, and your post is on point for tactical play beyond just GW2.

[TheGrimm.5624]

On 2/25/2024 at 1:21 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

sometimes I pull the 40 to him. /throw popcorn at Grimmy. 🍿🤭

🙂 As I said before, anytime you save me time to make bad calls, I am game since we mark all of those that take a piece of the pie as attackers and all the more of our side get defense ticks. Plus I get a chance to resupply. Bonus and I come back grumpy at them and so more attacking but with sups at hand. Its a win-win-win in my book. So game-on!

[Aerthan.1907]

If it's 10 v 40, don't try to fight the head of the snake. Show yourselves up by the lord/somewhere interesting. When they come charging up, jump off, glide and take out their tail. With any luck you'll nab a couple slow ones, kill them and get your defense and move on.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 2/25/2024 at 6:53 AM, Zyreva.1078 said:

So learning PvP in WvW for a new player is indeed a nearly impossible task and the best way for them would be to go into sPvP (which is in a terrible state) for learning the combat, then transition into WvW later. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

The split skills and different gearing systems do complicate that at least a little though; for gaining experience of player combat as you say, yes it's a good training method.

For portability of the skills & builds, maybe not so much. 🤷‍♂️

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

The split skills and different gearing systems do complicate that at least a little though; for gaining experience of player combat as you say, yes it's a good training method.

For portability of the skills & builds, maybe not so much. 🤷‍♂️

I do think they should sync sPvP to WvW skills. And not WvW to sPvP rules. sPvP to regain players would be a good place to regain a role in a training ground for WvW and allow for players to practice rotations against other classes/elites with similar numbers. They would better be ready to face larger numbers and larger scale that WvW may provide but me more ready in their own rotations. But mileage varies. 

[Liu.4751]

Simple solution to main post. Outnumbered buff, it’s not actually an outnumbered buff it’s just more WXP and loot.

give the player 2x stats within an objective, doing high damage of two on enemy group with few others soon become useful.

[Chips.7968]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:26 AM, Quasidivine.2591 said:

So i am trying WvW, and certainly NOT for the first time. Me and about  10 other people ...

Just grab your ankles, and your wallet, then open that black lion trading menu item - pay for some lovely skins and... "stuff", and then grimace while playing. 

 

On a more serious note, the balance is absolutely all over the place. Everyone knows that, so if you're facing outnumbered fights you're going to lose unless you're seriously coordinated role driven boon balling. Get used to it. They've changed WvW from "everyone has a role" to "blob-play-for-the-win-only"

 

You can, of course, still get something out of it if you switch maps, times, and so on. But overall... ? Play if you enjoy it, log off if you're not. It's the only way. 

Edited February 28 by Chips.7968

[Gehenna.3625]

When you're up against an overwhelming force, just leave the objective and let them cap it. No point in giving them more points by fighting them. Imbalances happen in WvW but imo you also need to know when NOT to fight. Pick your battles. They'll get bored quickly and go to another map but if you try to defend even when it's pointless you make it fun for them. 

Is that a sad state of affairs? Yes, but it's still the best thing you can do in such a situation... again, imo.

Edited March 3 by Gehenna.3625

[Knighthonor.4061]

On 2/24/2024 at 8:13 AM, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Defending is a fool's errand; you get nothing for it therefore no one does it.

And there is the problem with WvW and the flawed designed that Offense/DPS is everything. its what killed the original hype during vanilla, and this mentality in the development of the game still lingers here in WvW

[Widebody.5071]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

And there is the problem with WvW and the flawed designed that Offense/DPS is everything. its what killed the original hype during vanilla, and this mentality in the development of the game still lingers here in WvW

Spot on... They pretty much drove the people that like to defend out of the structures and onto the battlefield and are still complaining.

[Dawdler.8521]

10 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

When you're up against an overwhelming force, just leave the objective and let them cap it. No point in giving them more points by fighting them. Imbalances happen in WvW but imo you also need to know when NOT to fight. Pick your battles. They'll get bored quickly and go to another map but if you try to defend even when it's pointless you make it fun for them. 

Is that a sad state of affairs? Yes, but it's still the best thing you can do in such a situation... again, imo.

Wait, wait... 

So when there is an enemy 50 man and an enemy 5 on the map and you got at least 10 peeps on your side, are you saying you are not supposed run in one by one into a tower attacked by the 50 man, but instead you should be going after the the 5 man which has been capping things at will despite being constantly scouted on exactly where they are going for the past 10 minutes because the 2-3 guys trying to stop them always loose due to being outnumbered?

Man, WvW is weird.

[Gehenna.3625]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Wait, wait... 

So when there is an enemy 50 man and an enemy 5 on the map and you got at least 10 peeps on your side, are you saying you are not supposed run in one by one into a tower attacked by the 50 man, but instead you should be going after the the 5 man which has been capping things at will despite being constantly scouted on exactly where they are going for the past 10 minutes because the 2-3 guys trying to stop them always loose due to being outnumbered?

Man, WvW is weird.

I know right, but maybe it's me who's weird 🤷‍♂️ I never can tell.

[Aerthan.1907]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:08 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

They'll get bored quickly and go to another map but if you try to defend even when it's pointless you make it fun for them. 

Is that a sad state of affairs? Yes, but it's still the best thing you can do in such a situation... again, imo.

It's been my experience they don't get bored. As an example we are currently in last place not just in last place in our tier, we have the lowest score out of anyone. This morning we were outnumbered and both green and blue attacked us and ignored each other. With no kind of actual buff for being outnumbered and no real penalty for them it is far easier for the two sides with the most people on to just attack the weakest. Why bother getting in real fights when you can take anything you want at any time and pip to your hearts content?

[Widebody.5071]

I'll like to add the match scheduling is all kittened up too. in the past 8 months I've yet been in a matchup where the server I was  on and a opposing server ganged up on another server. Prior to that it only opened once since returning back in 2021. It's seems my server is cursed to be forever outnumbered but all the complaints seems to be  coming from the servers doing the outnumbering.

Even the server everyone likes to complain about whom overwhelms everything in site, when I was  linked to them the same thing happened. They were ganged up on like all the other servers I been  linked to. I think the problem is a group of people intently jumping from server to server (or using alt accounts) on some type of vendetta and being all in the feelings instead of just enjoying the game. The cicumstances, behavior and comments points to it being nothing less then that.

[kash.9213]

On 3/2/2024 at 4:08 PM, Gehenna.3625 said:

When you're up against an overwhelming force, just leave the objective and let them cap it. No point in giving them more points by fighting them. Imbalances happen in WvW but imo you also need to know when NOT to fight. Pick your battles. They'll get bored quickly and go to another map but if you try to defend even when it's pointless you make it fun for them. 

Is that a sad state of affairs? Yes, but it's still the best thing you can do in such a situation... again, imo.

I wouldn't expect to be able to defend that but what else is there to do anywhere in WvW? I'll be catching bodies and poking that blob to scope it out before and after they take our tower like the other regular pugs because that's going on in WvW maps. Of course, some people are going to feed them but however good or bad either team is there, one side would end up sweeping the other anyway if it was a more even numbered fight. We have to find some stuff to do and we have to fill our bags a little. 

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Aerthan.1907 said:

It's been my experience they don't get bored. As an example we are currently in last place not just in last place in our tier, we have the lowest score out of anyone. This morning we were outnumbered and both green and blue attacked us and ignored each other. With no kind of actual buff for being outnumbered and no real penalty for them it is far easier for the two sides with the most people on to just attack the weakest. Why bother getting in real fights when you can take anything you want at any time and pip to your hearts content?

Consider adjusting PPK and/or loot drops to encourage people to fight larger sides, add kill quest bounties for 2nd and 3rd placed teams to encourage more 2&3 versus 1 versus 1&2 versus 3. I hear you though,  its even worse when your side making a dumb call allowing one side to grow stronger while going to the team that is down versus making the side in a stronger position have to decide lose A or lose B, you can't have them both.

[Gehenna.3625]

3 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

I wouldn't expect to be able to defend that but what else is there to do anywhere in WvW? I'll be catching bodies and poking that blob to scope it out before and after they take our tower like the other regular pugs because that's going on in WvW maps. Of course, some people are going to feed them but however good or bad either team is there, one side would end up sweeping the other anyway if it was a more even numbered fight. We have to find some stuff to do and we have to fill our bags a little. 

Just recap what you can. I mean I'm not talking all the time but when this happens I either recap stuff or just leave and come back later to see if it's changed. Like tonight I played and at some point there were 3 zergs on our hbl and we were at their mercy (outnumbered, but really outnumbered). Luckily 2 of the zergs were too busy fighting each other and so we only had 1 zerg capping our stuff but even that was too much (zerg of 30 and around 10 active defenders) We were lucky again that they didn't cap our garrison, so they did their round of camps towers and the other keeps and then we capped them back. It worked that way because they just wanted to cap stuff. So it was just cap and recap.

5 hours ago, Aerthan.1907 said:

It's been my experience they don't get bored. As an example we are currently in last place not just in last place in our tier, we have the lowest score out of anyone. This morning we were outnumbered and both green and blue attacked us and ignored each other. With no kind of actual buff for being outnumbered and no real penalty for them it is far easier for the two sides with the most people on to just attack the weakest. Why bother getting in real fights when you can take anything you want at any time and pip to your hearts content?

And this happens as well. It really depends on the server(s) you're up against, but in my experience most servers are not that way, at least on the EU side. But once they own everything on a map, what happens then? Just wait til they cap everything and then usually they go to another map because there are no defenders defending and nothing left to cap. But if they're being real assholes then I just quit playing for the evening. It's not worth the frustration.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Just recap what you can. I mean I'm not talking all the time but when this happens I either recap stuff or just leave and come back later to see if it's changed. Like tonight I played and at some point there were 3 zergs on our hbl and we were at their mercy (outnumbered, but really outnumbered). Luckily 2 of the zergs were too busy fighting each other and so we only had 1 zerg capping our stuff but even that was too much (zerg of 30 and around 10 active defenders) We were lucky again that they didn't cap our garrison, so they did their round of camps towers and the other keeps and then we capped them back. It worked that way because they just wanted to cap stuff. So it was just cap and recap.

And this happens as well. It really depends on the server(s) you're up against, but in my experience most servers are not that way, at least on the EU side. But once they own everything on a map, what happens then? Just wait til they cap everything and then usually they go to another map because there are no defenders defending and nothing left to cap. But if they're being real assholes then I just quit playing for the evening. It's not worth the frustration.

I hear you and appreciate the advice and it's the smart thing to do. I get like 20 minutes after work and a little more on the weekends to vibe with my build so if a part of a map is lit up with blobs and wild pugs I'm going to be there. If this were open world pvp without the WvW extended match structrue then I'd take my time like that and play the towards objectives more. I'd definitely like to but my log in time is also hit or miss with our prime time, and I lose steam when nothing is going on. 

Edited March 4 by kash.9213

[Riba.3271]

Siege and objective balance is pretty thrash right now. The developers are only focusing on skill balance.
If you aren't great player yet, you kind of need to be carried by your server. So I would consider transferring to whatever server is outmanning you at the timezone you prefer to play at. Unless super coordinated then there isn't much to do with 10 people vs 40.

Edited March 5 by Riba.3271

[DeceiverX.8361]

7 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Just recap what you can. I mean I'm not talking all the time but when this happens I either recap stuff or just leave and come back later to see if it's changed. Like tonight I played and at some point there were 3 zergs on our hbl and we were at their mercy (outnumbered, but really outnumbered). Luckily 2 of the zergs were too busy fighting each other and so we only had 1 zerg capping our stuff but even that was too much (zerg of 30 and around 10 active defenders) We were lucky again that they didn't cap our garrison, so they did their round of camps towers and the other keeps and then we capped them back. It worked that way because they just wanted to cap stuff. So it was just cap and recap.

Problem is if I wanted to play PvE I wouldn't have entered WvW.

There's just next to no content for smallscale and what is there is stupid stuff like 2 or more minstrel supports per damage dealer such that nobody dies.

Hard pass.

[Mabi black.1824]

4 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

There's just next to no content for smallscale and what is there is stupid

I do not agree with that. The content in this mode is pretty much ourselves. The content is the players, what they want to do, and how they want to do it. You want to wreak havoc with a small group of 10 friends. Tag it and do whatever you like and have fun the way you like. Of course, you can't expect how the enemy side responds to you. Will you find 10 defenders? Or will you find a group of 25 guilds? You can't know this and you can't have any demands. 

On the enemy side they are also real players, like you, and they too have the freedom to choose what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.