City/Settlement design critique - Why am i checking the map so often? (Pics)

[Invoker.5462]

Had a self-realization today visiting Rata Sum for the Super Adventure thing.
I needed to find the Bank for my boobles.  and there wasn't any way of visually identifying where to go!
Frustrated, i opened my map, to find i needed to examine a different "level" of the map to locate my destination! 🐷

But i'd been taking for granted for so long that i just.. Knew where to look for things in my frequently visited cities. Never paying any mind to it.
Did at no point in worldbuilding QA did someone mentioned "hey, lets make signs or visisual cues for popular hubs" 

Examples from other games, self explanitory landmark/signs

https://imgur.com/4q3agXm
https://imgur.com/G78riFb
https://imgur.com/ZRAYIcL
https://imgur.com/y7bE47e

guild wars 2 - where am i going?! (lol)
https://imgur.com/ysZxHtC (??)
https://imgur.com/HblyLy4 (??)
https://imgur.com/bFUdNik(GOOD)
https://imgur.com/3rGICWM (??)
 

[leila.7962]

Rata sum is by far the easiest city to navigate lol.. (compared to the other cities that is). The central WP takes you to where all the npcs you need. Around that wp level you have bank, guild bank, merchant, TP. On each corridor you will find 3 of each job's crafting stations. Rata sum is so great that I even made the Rata Sum Portal Scroll! I love it.

But yea, it can be hard to navigate on other cities, trying to find specific npcs.. they're usually spread out. It gives a better sense of a "city" but it objectively inconvenient... they sell on the gemstore a bunch of passkeys to give you that convenience though.

[DarcShriek.5829]

Heh heh... He said boobles.

I'm sorry.  I couldn't help myself.

[Danikat.8537]

Sure if you've already found the bank and are standing right beside it like in those screenshots you shared of other games then a sign post on a building helps confirm you've already found the right place (although in the last two I'm not sure what tells you that's a bank, but maybe that's because I've never played those games). But if you're round a corner (like in most of your GW2 screenshots) the fact that there's a sign on the building isn't going to help you. I don't see how that's any different between games.

I play Elder Scrolls Online too and I find the bank and other important services exactly the same way I do in all games (and in real life for that matter) - by looking at the map. (Although I don't go to Vivec City if I can help it because while it's better than in TESIII it's still a mess.)

I don't think adding signs all over the city pointing you to all the difference services would achieve much. It would be a lot of visual clutter and it would still be quicker to open the map and look for the icon showing where it is than follow a series of sign posts that will eventually lead you there.

Edited April 16 by Danikat.8537

[Invoker.5462]

1 minute ago, leila.7962 said:

It gives a better sense of a "city" 

Oh trust me, i'm one of those gamers who can just relax, turn off my UI and /walk around a well designed MMORPG city. I'd argue it's one of my favorate things to do in most MMO's.
But if i went purely based off immersion and tried to navigate a city in GW2, well, i wouldn't really know what i'm looking at unless a little icon appeared above the NPC head. Where's the fun in that? 

[Donari.5237]

The bank in a city is shown by a bag symbol.  It's true that a frequent question in Map from new players is "where is the bank?" to which several helpful sorts link the nearest wp and say to look for the bag.  But it's not actually that hard to learn where six cities keep their banks.

[Invoker.5462]

Just now, Donari.5237 said:

not actually that hard to learn  Research where six cities keep their banks.

Fixed that for you. Yes i've learned that GW2 happily encourages its players to put the game down and research every little aspect, even finding a popular hub in a main city.. Lol

[sanguigasm.1325]

I love rata sum cos you don't need to wait for loading when wp. I do agree It's visual cluster on mini map but you'll get used to it 

Edited April 16 by sanguigasm.1325

[Shuzuru.3651]

1 hour ago, Invoker.5462 said:

guild wars 2 - where am i going?! (lol)
https://imgur.com/ysZxHtC (??)
https://imgur.com/HblyLy4 (??)
https://imgur.com/bFUdNik(GOOD)
https://imgur.com/3rGICWM (??)

Well...

First screen, not the bank, so no bank icon, if you moved slightly to the left, you would notice the big crafting station display board

Second screen, not the bank again, I mean, there is a bank in there, but it's more a "private" bank, and when you got the access to this, not sign needed as every thing is in slight

Last screen, there are actually a bank sign, but you need to be a bit more on the center

I take notice you didn't note the actual Divinity Reach bank, who got a nice bank flag on the outside, not fitting your narrative? 😛

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Do you have the bank icons turned off on your Map legend, or something?  How did you manage to find the banks in your screenshots? 

[RoseofGilead.8907]

Doesn't every map have NPCS with "Directions" in their name that will mark where banks/TP/crafting stations are?

[Invoker.5462]

1 hour ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well...

First screen, not the bank, so no bank icon, if you moved slightly to the left, you would notice the big crafting station display board

Second screen, not the bank again, I mean, there is a bank in there, but it's more a "private" bank, and when you got the access to this, not sign needed as every thing is in slight

Last screen, there are actually a bank sign, but you need to be a bit more on the center

I take notice you didn't note the actual Divinity Reach bank, who got a nice bank flag on the outside, not fitting your narrative? 😛

When even the icons themselves have convoluted meanings with nothing more to (visually) represent them than an icon - i start to think we are playing a game of very low production value in the worldbuilding department. 

If a regular bank and a "Private bank" as you call it are two seperate entities, this would open an oppertunity to create thematic artwork tied to these NPC professions. A place that when i step into town, i see something about these hubs (Visual hints) and when i arrive at them (Visual identity)

Slapping an icon above an NPC or putting a sticker on the world map just seems somewhat egregious in these sense that the department designing the city has virtually no connection with the department designing the gameplay. 

Jumping puzzles might very well be the only area of the entire game where we see the two teams work together. 

If its easier to identify a jumping puzzle than an extremely important bank which serves an entire capital city, i have a problem with that.

But hey, to each their own If you prefer icons, you likely find the scenery to be annoying anyways. 

[RoseofGilead.8907]

15 minutes ago, Invoker.5462 said:

If a regular bank and a "Private bank" as you call it are two seperate entities, this would open an oppertunity to create thematic artwork tied to these NPC professions. A place that when i step into town, i see something about these hubs (Visual hints) and when i arrive at them (Visual identity)

The entrance to the "private bank" area you're referring to does have visual hints: a big shimmery thing in front of it, a Greeter NPC you can talk to, and you're pushed back and given a dialogue box when you try to go in without a pass to the lounge.

[Shuzuru.3651]

6 hours ago, Invoker.5462 said:

When even the icons themselves have convoluted meanings with nothing more to (visually) represent them than an icon - i start to think we are playing a game of very low production value in the worldbuilding department. 

And the screen you posted about other games are supposed to be better?

They are not. I didn't see what is supposed to be the bank in the third and fourth screen and the symbols on the first two are not better than the one we got.

I guess those game are also low on the worldbuilding department, then....

Edited April 17 by Shuzuru.3651

[willow.8209]

I think the banks are normally fine.

but when i can't tell where the road is based on my minimap and I have to open the big map every 5 steps just to stay on the road, that's where i feel it could have gone better

[Cuks.8241]

I liked in wow that you could ask npc guards for directions. Nothing gamebreaking but a nice touch.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I liked in wow that you could ask npc guards for directions. Nothing gamebreaking but a nice touch.

You can do the same in gw2

[costepj.5120]

1 hour ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I liked in wow that you could ask npc guards for directions. Nothing gamebreaking but a nice touch.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Directions

[evilcat.6817]

It is fair request for important services to have glowing, sparking signs HERE. WE HAVE ALL YOU NEED....

[Tinker.6924]

On 4/16/2024 at 3:41 PM, Invoker.5462 said:

self explanitory landmark/signs

only 2 out of those 4 were self explanatory, the others were really obscure especially the FF14 screenshot.

Try finding anything in Boston (with GPS!), you'll appreciate gw2's city layouts after that.

Edited April 17 by Tinker.6924

[Invoker.5462]

On 4/17/2024 at 6:04 PM, Tinker.6924 said:

only 2 out of those 4 were self explanatory, the others were really obscure especially the FF14 screenshot.

What? The FF11 screenshot showcases a main street with signs all over the place. To the right side you can see a weapon and item shop sign. In the distance there's a bank with signs on every side of the building lol 

Edited April 19 by Invoker.5462

[kiroho.4738]

Rata Sum - The waypoint "Accountancy" gives a decent hint what to find there.
Also Rata Sum is pretty compact. Once you reach mid level (which you pass when going to the bottom level) you automatically see all the symbols floating above the heads of the bank, merchant, trading post, makeover, bl exchange, bl weapon, bl statuette, armorsmith and guild bank NPCs. That's way clearer to see than any actual ingame sign.

Divinities Reach - There are clear ingame signs at the actual bank and TP as you can see here and here. Your screenshot shows the entrace of the Royal Terrace lounge, not the actual bank/TP.

Black Citadel - The crafting destrict is full of ingame signs. The bank building also does have some kind of a sign, it's just not the default one. However, since there are no levels, it's very easy to find this one via map symbols.

The Grove - You forgot the Grove, but they indeed also have a clear ingame sign.

As for your example screenshots of other games: Screenshot 1 and 2 are obvious, but I don't see any self explanitory signs in screenshot 3 and 4. 3 has literally no sign at all and 4 is... and empty street?
The way GW2 shows the symbols is much more self explanitory and easier to understand. Especially with the map symbols and symbols above NPC's heads.

Additional tipp for map levels: When symbols are highlighted, they are on the level you currently look at. When greyed out, they are on a different level.
By knowing this it's pretty easy to see where let's say the bank is and what WP is the nearest on the same level.

Edited April 19 by kiroho.4738

[Vayne.8563]

It is marked on the map. Do you know those little diamonds in the bottom right corner of your big map? Those change levels. What's on each level is show. Therefore, yiou can see what's on your level, and each level below you. Clicking on the second diamond from the bottom clearly shows the icons for both the tp and the bank.

[Chichimec.9364]

On 4/16/2024 at 3:02 PM, Danikat.8537 said:

Sure if you've already found the bank and are standing right beside it like in those screenshots you shared of other games then a sign post on a building helps confirm you've already found the right place (although in the last two I'm not sure what tells you that's a bank, but maybe that's because I've never played those games). But if you're round a corner (like in most of your GW2 screenshots) the fact that there's a sign on the building isn't going to help you. I don't see how that's any different between games.

I play Elder Scrolls Online too and I find the bank and other important services exactly the same way I do in all games (and in real life for that matter) - by looking at the map. (Although I don't go to Vivec City if I can help it because while it's better than in TESIII it's still a mess.)

I don't think adding signs all over the city pointing you to all the difference services would achieve much. It would be a lot of visual clutter and it would still be quicker to open the map and look for the icon showing where it is than follow a series of sign posts that will eventually lead you there.

One of the things I don't understand about the OP's post is why looking at a map is an issue. I drove a cab in the city I grew up in back before the days of GPS. I always kept a map in the glove compartment to use when I needed it. Right now I'm working on Nevermore and just did map completion on Dragon's Stand last night. Guess what - I looked at the map constantly to see where the next poi or vista was. Irl and ingame, if I don't know where something is, I'll use a map. It's not a big deal to me at all.

4 hours ago, kiroho.4738 said:

Rata Sum - The waypoint "Accountancy" gives a decent hint what to find there.
Also Rata Sum is pretty compact. Once you reach mid level (which you pass when going to the bottom level) you automatically see all the symbols floating above the heads of the bank, merchant, trading post, makeover, bl exchange, bl weapon, bl statuette, armorsmith and guild bank NPCs. That's way clearer to see than any actual ingame sign.

Divinities Reach - There are clear ingame signs at the actual bank and TP as you can see here and here. Your screenshot shows the entrace of the Royal Terrace lounge, not the actual bank/TP.

Black Citadel - The crafting destrict is full of ingame signs. The bank building also does have some kind of a sign, it's just not the default one. However, since there are no levels, it's very easy to find this one via map symbols.

The Grove - You forgot the Grove, but they indeed also have a clear ingame sign.

As for your example screenshots of other games: Screenshot 1 and 2 are obvious, but I don't see any self explanitory signs in screenshot 3 and 4. 3 has literally no sign at all and 4 is... and empty street?
The way GW2 shows the symbols is much more self explanitory and easier to understand. Especially with the map symbols and symbols above NPC's heads.

Additional tipp for map levels: When symbols are highlighted, they are on the level you currently look at. When greyed out, they are on a different level.
By knowing this it's pretty easy to see where let's say the bank is and what WP is the nearest on the same level.

Another thing I don't understand about the OP's post is their examples of signs in other games along with their claim that there are no such signs in GW2. Yes, there were signs in their first two examples but I also did not see any "self-explanatory" signs in their last two. And I wouldn't have bothered to post any screenshot links myself but yeah, I remember such signs in various Tyrian cities. So again, its not at all clear to me what the OP is talking about.