CELE IS GETTING NERFED

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I run celestial tempest. It works good enough. With this change I will be forced to run some catalyst stuff, a spec I hates or weaver, a spec I despise. Cele made tempest somewhat viable. Not anymore. At the same time harb, willbender run around unmolested,  which has been a disgrace since Eid, without any nerds.

 

This just shows anets bias or inability.

Edited Sunday at 02:13 PM by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

[oOCitadelOo.2381]

Disclaimer: By no means this is saying that Anet, with data collected (maybe), cele stats might be overperforming, but this exchange I had with a player is a demonstration that it isn't just "celestial" stats they take issue. It's primarily those may have an issue because they can't burst you in one go and actually have to fight to get a win versus small groups, or just your roamers.

I am running with combo stats of ritualist, trailblazer, and crusaders, because I am modifying my adjustments for upcoming patch in October.  I am a WB went against a Holosmth, the fight was long, but I did end up losing. No biggie. Then I get a DM from them saying "learn skill, leave cele" something to that affect. And I am like, really? So, now we are in a keyboard warrior battle. Back and forth we go, the main issue, "well you just have too much toughness". That's it? You're basically upset because you couldn't burst me fast enough, is that I had too much toughness to kill. I'm roaming and running a more bunker build incase I do get outnumbered, so I have a chance to win the encounter, or retreat. 

So, this is just an example that, if it isn't cele stats some players will complain about, it will be some other stat they aren't happy with. 

Edited Sunday at 02:31 PM by oOCitadelOo.2381

[schloumou.3982]

10 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

I have a friend who plays marauder harbinger. The number of "cele trash" whispers he gets makes me absolutely certain that the vast majority of WvW players have no idea what people are playing and default to blaming celestial because they heard it's "overpowered".

I mean sure but how is this relevant in deciding if its overperforming or not? Its rather tiring to always read this stuff when there are a lot of people fighting and testing in environments where they talk to opponents and know their exact builds.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Everyone that plays both celestial and some other(s) build know that cele is over the top.
Most of the time I play both glass power chrono and cele virtuoso, on glass a mistake and I'm dead even on 1vs1, on cele I can easily 1vs3+. Are you trying to convice me that I magically become a better player while playing cele? Or perhaps it's virt that is just so much better than chrono.

[bq pd.2148]

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

oof was that your attempt to sound smart for when i pointed out that reflecting deadeyes' malicious judgement is broken and does 140 damage (with any build, idk where you got support ele from but yeah) and you defended it as some kind of ~11000% multiplier... big oof... thanks for proving me right for everything though that was nice of you...

if you can extrapolate from a simple correction that not all your personally perceived issues with thieves are fixed, i can extrapolate some too.  for most of the modifiers that come into play there is simply those that the class has for any skills, so not even deadeye specific and yes you wanted ALL modifiers to apply.
I did point out there that the main reason that skill in particular dealing low damage is that on deadeye non marked targets recieve very low damage from DJ (even when you target them btw), so to have a reflect in the expected range you would need to allow DJ to deal normal damage to non marked targets (without the malice modifiers), as it was a while ago. yet you didnt want to hear any of that, because that would in some cases improve thief damage.

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

on topic: imho the stats that should have been removed are concentration and healing power idk why expertise had to get cut as it has nothing to do with the "oMg ImMoRtAl CeLe" if you cut the concentration to lower the boons and the healing power to lower the sustain and suddenly cele loses its sustain

now that i can agree would be a good change, for my main issue with cele is that fights drag on too long and potentially wont come to a conclusion. healing power does more for that than the expertise, people learned to pack a ton of cleanse anyway.
 

[Codename T.2847]

7 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Are we really pretending that this is the end of eles and eles didn't use cele before the 2 stats buff?

 

Also power ele isn't as big of an albatross on land as Arachnid here claims it to be... 

Edited Sunday at 03:45 PM by Codename T.2847

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

So after Oct 8 when you lose fights to players mixing armor stats, does that mean mixing gears will be garbage and has to go? Only one stat set for all armor pieces? Oh! Maybe an amulet that can do that for you. Where have I seen that before?

You cele people are like broken records. "But what will you do when you lose to not cele" "But but but muh celeeeeeee".

I do 2 things in wvw, when I'm in wvw at all. I duel and I AFK. I'm not "losing fights against XYZ"; I don't roam. Generally I dont care about the outcome of the duel either, as long as I've had fun dueling. Cele is not fun to duel in its current state, it has too much of everything. Plain and simple.

Will I complain about the next thing that takes 10 years to kill? No, I barely duel anymore. So be happy, cele nerfs is the only thing I've wanted and that was when I still cared. More importantly, stop telling me how I'll complain about XYZ. Do you have a crystal ball or something? Maybe you should play the lottery instead of inventing my future complaints.

[Jski.6180]

This is not going to be as big of an hit as ppl think its going to be if a skill was doing high dmg or an def skill was full counter dmg boon duration and condi duration was not making them do this in the first place but the skill them self where already doing to much with minimum stats.

There are skills that do to much for to little stat investment that was always the issues with cele and kind of all builds. There are classes that get too much free stats for being an given class but there skills dont require high stat investment.

The real fix would of been to take all of the 3 - 4 stat gear and buff them to the point where they have the same total stats as cele. On top of nerfing base hp / def to classes.

I am hoping this leads to us getting more spvp combos in wvw i want my sages! This also means we can see more stat splits in game types with out major updates.

Edited Sunday at 04:08 PM by Jski.6180

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

"Some defense in it" has to be the biggest understatement I've read about cele so far. It only has "some defense in it" the same way minstrel has "some support in it".

You deny that they removed pretty much all defense amulets in sPvP? That's an interesting take. 

Edited Sunday at 04:02 PM by TheGrimm.5624
spelling

[Kulvar.1239]

1 hour ago, schloumou.3982 said:

I mean sure but how is this relevant in deciding if its overperforming or not? Its rather tiring to always read this stuff when there are a lot of people fighting and testing in environments where they talk to opponents and know their exact builds.

It is relevant, we were talking about people knowing what the enemy's build is when they're not.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Codename T.2847 said:

Also power ele isn't as big of an albatross on land as Arachnid here claims it to be... 

Yup. A good power FA ele is amazing to behold.
Although I know how they work and can play it at some degree I always envy the skilled ones.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everyone that plays both celestial and some other(s) build know that cele is over the top.
Most of the time I play both glass power chrono and cele virtuoso, on glass a mistake and I'm dead even on 1vs1, on cele I can easily 1vs3+. Are you trying to convice me that I magically become a better player while playing cele? Or perhaps it's virt that is just so much better than chrono.

Nah, I play both marauder and cele builds. Marauder builds on the whole are far more efficient at roaming on most classes. Cele builds are only better when outnumbered, because the extra toughness helps you survive the combined initial burst/gank and recover.

Edited Sunday at 05:44 PM by Gaiawolf.8261

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

You deny that they removed pretty much all defense amulets in sPvP? That's an interesting take. 

I have to ask, where did you read that? I commented on "cele has some defense" (specifically the "some" part, since it actually has a shitton of defenses as a stat set, to call this "some" is delusional).

Do I care about spvp amulets? Not really. Do I care about removed stats in spvp? Not really either. In either mode you can easily duel for 10+ min, given the right conditions (similar skill level, similar enough build).

Personally I've moved from wvw to conquest; I was really hesitant at first, since its balancing is much different, to the point of feeling like a different game. But after getting used to it, I really have no wish to get back to waiting hours at duel spot for SOMEONE to show up, to have some action. I'd rather wait 2 min in a queue in the evening, then get 10 min of actual content.

I keep reading how conquest is a dead mode cause they removed stat sets and added amulets, I stopped wvw cause it got dead too. Why it died? Who knows. I dont really care. I had exactly 1 issue, and I've commented probably 100+ times on it and it was cele in its current form. That issue is getting resolved and so I'm happy. I'll go back to duel spot when I have time, maybe it revives a bit. If not, oh well.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

You cele people are like broken records. "But what will you do when you lose to not cele" "But but but muh celeeeeeee".

I do 2 things in wvw, when I'm in wvw at all. I duel and I AFK. I'm not "losing fights against XYZ"; I don't roam. Generally I dont care about the outcome of the duel either, as long as I've had fun dueling. Cele is not fun to duel in its current state, it has too much of everything. Plain and simple.

Will I complain about the next thing that takes 10 years to kill? No, I barely duel anymore. So be happy, cele nerfs is the only thing I've wanted and that was when I still cared. More importantly, stop telling me how I'll complain about XYZ. Do you have a crystal ball or something? Maybe you should play the lottery instead of inventing my future complaints.

Sure, there are a lot of things some players don't find fun in the game. I like thoughtful, strategic fights against well-rounded opponents on a similar build. Others like to gank fast against other glass cannons. No singular playstyle should have priority over the others. There is game design space for both. You just have to occasionally put up with players that have different play preferences than your own.

Edit; Honestly, if you just want to duel, you're probably better off with sPVP or the Armistice arena than WVW maps. Alpine maps are an option if you emote on the hill. WVW is designed around objective play and capping. Used to be a able to defend too, but that's mostly scuffed these days until they fix the defend objective.

Edited Sunday at 06:48 PM by Gaiawolf.8261

[Ubik.8315]

So when is willbender getting nerfed?

[CafPow.1542]

3 hours ago, oOCitadelOo.2381 said:

"well you just have too much toughness"

See that’s it hahahaaa

imagine being salty because someone wears a certain stat on his gear and imagine the audacity to call that „unfair“ or „bad gameplay“ rofl. That’s exactly what i mean. They can’t oneshot you thus they get salty. jfc.

[CafPow.1542]

2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I do 2 things in wvw, when I'm in wvw at all. I duel and I AFK. I'm not "losing fights against XYZ"; I don't roam. Generally I dont care about the outcome of the duel either, as long as I've had fun dueling. Cele is not fun to duel in its current state, it has too much of everything. Plain and simple.

>actually not playing wvw but still giving out some statements 

xD

[oOCitadelOo.2381]

6 minutes ago, CafPow.1542 said:

>actually not playing wvw but still giving out some statements 

xD

Very valid point. WVW isn't primarily a dueling arena. PVP side would be, one would argue to stay in that side and say they really don't have much merits to complain about celestats where WVW is a completely different mode. 

[Bleikopf.2491]

Just for fun, let me take a peek at my crystal ball:

Assumption: Some Zergs started using mainly Celestial builds. They care a lot about boon upkeep, and Celestial gives a lot of all around stats with those. Anet nerfed Celestial because of that. 

Celestial will only lose Concentration and Expertise. All those complains that Celestial is too tanky or do too much damage won't be massively challenged by that. Celestial still has Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power. Still has Condition Power, Power, Precision and Ferocity. 

Quote

But what about the free +42% Boon and Condi Duration? 

Expertise is not that strong when you fight against enough cleanses. You don't necessarily need +42% Boon Duration. You only need to hit a breakpoint to loop your boons. Those can be supplied with Runes that give +25% Boon Duration, Food and Relics. Or mix some Minstrel in for the really bratty ones. It will be a nerf to, but most likely won't delete, most Celestial builds. 

Quote

This is basically just a revert. Why will classes now play Celestial when they didn't do so before 2021?

Because classes changed. If they have enough incentive in their kits to dip into all stats, if they can keep their boon spam about their breakpoint they will have the same incentive. 

Prediction: This won't be the death of Celestial roamer. Anet now has a tool to trim the stats all around by 20%, which imo made more sense. But they will kill Cele in Zergs, and thus no longer care about roamers.

Thus, the tragedy is complete. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/15/2024 at 8:53 AM, Hotride.2187 said:

I do 2 things in wvw, when I'm in wvw at all. I duel and I AFK.

 

On 9/15/2024 at 8:53 AM, Hotride.2187 said:

I barely duel anymore.

Dang I didn't realize people wearing Cele makes it hard to AFK. Usually I find people running marauders or zerker makes it harder to afk in WvW.

Like sometimes I afk to post on the forums and someone attacks me in game. Definitely prefer a Cele attacker at that point.

Edited Monday at 09:00 PM by ArchonWing.9480

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 9/13/2024 at 5:03 PM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Mucking with gear sets is what turned a lot of us away from spvp. Toon skills, mucking with full gear sets.....personally that is a bad call in my book.

It is a bad call.

I can see doing -10% or even -15% to all cele stats, but straight removing conc/exp entirely, is essentially deleting the celestial line completely.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

17 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It is a bad call.

I can see doing -10% or even -15% to all cele stats, but straight removing conc/exp entirely, is essentially deleting the celestial line completely.

It won't delete cele from everyone. Mostly just support builds. They'll go back to minstrels, simultaneously doing less damage and giving even more healing. Everyone will become even more tanky from better support and while putting out less damage, cuz supports won't contribute to damage anymore. Turtleball for everyone!

So yeah, bad call. Lowering all stats would lower effectiveness but still keep it relevant for support builds.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Dang I didn't realize people wearing Cele makes it hard to AFK. Usually I find people running marauders or zerker makes it harder to afk in WvW.

Like sometimes I afk to post on the forums and someone attacks me in game. Definitely prefer a Cele attacker at that point.

And if I'm not wearing my cele gear, I might not survive long enough to go get a beer! 🙃 

[CafPow.1542]

13 hours ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Expertise is not that strong when you fight against enough cleanses. You don't necessarily need +42% Boon Duration. You only need to hit a breakpoint to loop your boons. Those can be supplied with Runes that give +25% Boon Duration, Food and Relics. Or mix some Minstrel in for the really bratty ones. It will be a nerf to, but most likely won't delete, most Celestial builds. 

I mean if you put it like that, the nerf wasn’t so bad and awful as one might think. 

[Lyralia.2945]

Cele nerf is good - I don't want build diversity to suffer though, as diversity and freedom of choice is part of why I like wvw. So avoid messing with other stuff for now, I'd say.

 

(Moved full post to own topic.)

Edited Tuesday at 10:19 AM by Lyralia.2945