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WvW also needs nerfs to passive traits


Zero.3871
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Hello anet balance team;I think the last Balance patch did a step in the right direction. Nerfing passive traits for supporting a more active playstyle and more skill needed. but the most patchnotes effected only pvp. the current pvp state of defy pain, stoneform and other traits like this should implemented asap to wvw too, because the Overall uptime for invuls are simply too high. finally its not funny to Play against a class that is 15 sec invul/block/dodging or what else to the beginning of an fight, as enemy you can only wait until it Ends, cause there is no counterplay to invuls...

have a nice day! cheers...

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NO! It doesn't need it! WvW is not a PvP where only the abilities of the individual are important, but also those of the masses and their interaction. Passive abilities make it easier for the player to pay attention to the already sufficient, unforgiving, fighting events.

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Wholeheartedly agree. Signet of Stone 3s / 40s cd change made me so happy. Give the same treatment to Stoneform/Lesser signet of stone. Passive autosaves should get save you more than 2-3s period. Across all the professions. This has been my most cherished patch. Enjoying roaming even more now that it's fairer. Keep going at it Anet. It was a bold move, keep at it. More recurrent balancing too.

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The nerfs to passive traits should absolutely not carry over to WvW. WvW is a far more chaotic environment than sPvP where fights may be found far more often against a far greater number of players. sPvP allows you to know what you're up against: needing the passive traits to have a chance to counter a gank thief or mesmer's burst from stealth won't happen as often in sPvP as it will in WvW.

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The people here arguing that the passives should remain as is in wvw are speaking in generalities. Fact of the matter is that you spend more time in combat in pvp (per minute) than you do in wvw.

If the devs saw fit to nerf passives in pvp where the passives are most helpful, then they shouldn't have reservations about nerfing passives in wvw where the passives are less helpful over time. Fights are over more quickly in wvw anyway since damage is higher.

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@Zero.3871 said:Hello anet balance team;I think the last Balance patch did a step in the right direction. Nerfing passive traits for supporting a more active playstyle and more skill needed. but the most patchnotes effected only pvp. the current pvp state of defy pain, stoneform and other traits like this should implemented asap to wvw too, because the Overall uptime for invuls are simply too high. finally its not funny to Play against a class that is 15 sec invul/block/dodging or what else to the beginning of an fight, as enemy you can only wait until it Ends, cause there is no counterplay to invuls...

have a nice day! cheers...

There's no counterplay to a lot of stealth one-shots, facerolled (or macro'd or super-skilled, whichever it is it's a long string of powers) combos or whatever. There is no escape from a class that's faster than yours, it's just silly to expect the game to be balanced now.

I have a sneaking suspicion that all the gankers just want people to be unable to survive against them and come here to lobby for the already OP classes. It's not clever because when people give up on WvW, you'll have no victims.

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@Shagaliscious.6281 said:Honestly, the only times I could see these nerfs making a difference is when you have someone playing a troll build perma-tapping your keep. In which case, even how it is now, you just need to gather 5 allies to chase them down and kill them. Rinse and repeat.

ganking is not the solution, its a Problem. :pensive:

but it make a big difference. usually when i fight in wvw it was like:->mesmer dodge,dodge invul, sword 2 invul, f4 invul....10+ sec invul-> endure pain, defy pain, shield block....10+ sec invul-> ranger, signet of Stone, stoneform....10+ sec invuland so on.latest signet of Stone Change make it better, but its still a Problem, because its simply not fun, imagine if 2 warriors stand next to each other and 10 seconds just waiting both invuls run out... thats not fighting, no skillrotation, just....waitntg....its boring. invuls should negate a spike, not negating every dmg perma that is incoming. a skilled Player can do with 2 sec Duration on endure pain the same like with 4 sec, because he predicts the coming spike and negate it. longer Durations just Support skillless and brainless spam of those skills.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@Zero.3871 said:Hello anet balance team;I think the last Balance patch did a step in the right direction. Nerfing passive traits for supporting a more active playstyle and more skill needed. but the most patchnotes effected only pvp. the current pvp state of defy pain, stoneform and other traits like this should implemented asap to wvw too, because the Overall uptime for invuls are simply too high. finally its not funny to Play against a class that is 15 sec invul/block/dodging or what else to the beginning of an fight, as enemy you can only wait until it Ends, cause there is no counterplay to invuls...

have a nice day! cheers...

There's no counterplay to a lot of stealth one-shots, facerolled (or macro'd or super-skilled, whichever it is it's a long string of powers) combos or whatever. There is no escape from a class that's faster than yours,

So, the current Meta of Primarily scourge and firebrand should suit you well.

Because the only way to 'balance' it based on this, is to have the same skills on all toons. Not gonna happen.

If you want 'balance' run with 5 or more

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@Zero.3871 said:

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:Honestly, the only times I could see these nerfs making a difference is when you have someone playing a troll build perma-tapping your keep. In which case, even how it is now, you just need to gather 5 allies to chase them down and kill them. Rinse and repeat.

ganking is not the solution, its a Problem. :pensive:

but it make a big difference. usually when i fight in wvw it was like:->mesmer dodge,dodge invul, sword 2 invul, f4 invul....10+ sec invul-> endure pain, defy pain, shield block....10+ sec invul-> ranger, signet of Stone, stoneform....10+ sec invuland so on.latest signet of Stone Change make it better, but its still a Problem, because its simply not fun, imagine if 2 warriors stand next to each other and 10 seconds just waiting both invuls run out... thats not fighting, no skillrotation, just....waitntg....its boring. invuls should negate a spike, not negating every dmg perma that is incoming. a skilled Player can do with 2 sec Duration on endure pain the same like with 4 sec, because he predicts the coming spike and negate it. longer Durations just Support skillless and brainless spam of those skills.

I would be happy that the nerfs to these traits came into WVW, I'm just not sure it would have the same impact as it does in PVP, with the exception of people that play tanky troll builds that rely completely on the timed rotation of their invulns/evades.

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@Arcaedus.7290 said:The people here arguing that the passives should remain as is in wvw are speaking in generalities. Fact of the matter is that you spend more time in combat in pvp (per minute) than you do in wvw.

If the devs saw fit to nerf passives in pvp where the passives are most helpful, then they shouldn't have reservations about nerfing passives in wvw where the passives are less helpful over time. Fights are over more quickly in wvw anyway since damage is higher.

Passives are of the most use when facing a high burst build where the tiniest delay in player reaction or a bit of lag will result in a player going from 100 to 0 without ever getting a single skill of their own off (most commonly seen against glass high stealth builds). sPvP limits the size of teams and you'll never see a team composed fully of such glassy builds as they'd never be able to hold anything. WvW doesn't have this limitation, and encountering one gank toon after another is entirely possible and even likely when roaming or in smallscale. With the traits as they currently are in WvW, if it's been at least 60 secs or so since the last thing tried to gank you, then the trait has a chance to proc again.

The cooldowns for passive traits should get extended only after burst damage from stealth has been toned down.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:The people here arguing that the passives should remain as is in wvw are speaking in generalities. Fact of the matter is that you spend more time in combat in pvp (per minute) than you do in wvw.

If the devs saw fit to nerf passives in pvp where the passives are most helpful, then they shouldn't have reservations about nerfing passives in wvw where the passives are less helpful over time. Fights are over more quickly in wvw anyway since damage is higher.

Passives are of the most use when facing a high burst build where the tiniest delay in player reaction or a bit of lag will result in a player going from 100 to 0 without ever getting a single skill of their own off (most commonly seen against glass high stealth builds). sPvP limits the size of teams and you'll never see a team composed fully of such glassy builds as they'd never be able to hold anything. WvW doesn't have this limitation, and encountering one gank toon after another is entirely possible and even likely when roaming or in smallscale. With the traits as they currently are in WvW, if it's been at least 60 secs or so since the last thing tried to gank you, then the trait has a chance to proc again.

The cooldowns for passive traits should get extended only after burst damage from stealth has been toned down.

in your burst scenario its not important if skill like defy pain last 2 sec or 4, burst get still negated. so there is no Problem in Shorter the Duration. but the Overall uptime of invuls get reduced. so e.g. the warrior cannot live 15+ sec just carried by invuls. and thats what i mean, negating spike is okay,. but with the current uptimes, invul using classes dont Need to react to enemies, they just yolo pushing without any risk, and thats brainless/skilless playstyle that Need to get nerfed.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Zero.3871 said:Hello anet balance team;I think the last Balance patch did a step in the right direction. Nerfing passive traits for supporting a more active playstyle and more skill needed. but the most patchnotes effected only pvp. the current pvp state of defy pain, stoneform and other traits like this should implemented asap to wvw too, because the Overall uptime for invuls are simply too high. finally its not funny to Play against a class that is 15 sec invul/block/dodging or what else to the beginning of an fight, as enemy you can only wait until it Ends, cause there is no counterplay to invuls...

have a nice day! cheers...

There's no counterplay to a lot of stealth one-shots, facerolled (or macro'd or super-skilled, whichever it is it's a long string of powers) combos or whatever. There is no escape from a class that's faster than yours,

So, the current Meta of Primarily scourge and firebrand should suit you well.

Because the only way to 'balance' it based on this, is to have the same skills on all toons. Not gonna happen.

If you want 'balance' run with 5 or more

OR we could all run thieves because all skills on one class makes utter sense.

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@Svarty.8019 said:

@Zero.3871 said:Hello anet balance team;I think the last Balance patch did a step in the right direction. Nerfing passive traits for supporting a more active playstyle and more skill needed. but the most patchnotes effected only pvp. the current pvp state of defy pain, stoneform and other traits like this should implemented asap to wvw too, because the Overall uptime for invuls are simply too high. finally its not funny to Play against a class that is 15 sec invul/block/dodging or what else to the beginning of an fight, as enemy you can only wait until it Ends, cause there is no counterplay to invuls...

have a nice day! cheers...

There's no counterplay to a lot of stealth one-shots, facerolled (or macro'd or super-skilled, whichever it is it's a long string of powers) combos or whatever. There is no escape from a class that's faster than yours,

So, the current Meta of Primarily scourge and firebrand should suit you well.

Because the only way to 'balance' it based on this, is to have the same skills on all toons. Not gonna happen.

If you want 'balance' run with 5 or more

OR we could all run thieves because all skills on one class makes utter sense.

Lol. Point taken.

I just feel strongly that balancing for 1v1 makes no sense in a large scale environment. From the start combos were one of the biggest part of the game. Which doesn't require yet strongly encourages running in packs. And groups of 3-6 can be highly effective. And variable.

Running solo? Yeah, thief, Mesmer, maybe some warrior and Druid.

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@Zero.3871 said:

@Arcaedus.7290 said:The people here arguing that the passives should remain as is in wvw are speaking in generalities. Fact of the matter is that you spend more time in combat in pvp (per minute) than you do in wvw.

If the devs saw fit to nerf passives in pvp where the passives are most helpful, then they shouldn't have reservations about nerfing passives in wvw where the passives are less helpful over time. Fights are over more quickly in wvw anyway since damage is higher.

Passives are of the most use when facing a high burst build where the tiniest delay in player reaction or a bit of lag will result in a player going from 100 to 0 without ever getting a single skill of their own off (most commonly seen against glass high stealth builds). sPvP limits the size of teams and you'll never see a team composed fully of such glassy builds as they'd never be able to hold anything. WvW doesn't have this limitation, and encountering one gank toon after another is entirely possible and even likely when roaming or in smallscale. With the traits as they currently are in WvW, if it's been at least 60 secs or so since the last thing tried to gank you, then the trait has a chance to proc again.

The cooldowns for passive traits should get extended only after burst damage from stealth has been toned down.

in your burst scenario its not important if skill like defy pain last 2 sec or 4, burst get still negated. so there is no Problem in Shorter the Duration. but the Overall uptime of invuls get reduced. so e.g. the warrior cannot live 15+ sec just carried by invuls. and thats what i mean, negating spike is okay,. but with the current uptimes, invul using classes dont Need to react to enemies, they just yolo pushing without any risk, and thats brainless/skilless playstyle that Need to get nerfed.

sPvP got a blanket treatment of most passive traits getting a 90 sec base cooldown. Duration of invulnerabilities was not touched this patch with the exception of Signet of Stone. These 90 sec cooldowns went to more than just invuln traits as passively procced stunbreaks or blocks got them as well, leading to a greater nerf to said stunbreaks and blocks than the actual invulns (example from engi: Reactive Lenses got a 50 sec increase whereas Self-Regulating Defenses only got a 15 sec increase).

The Signet of Stone change was a healthy one for rangers. It allows for more skilled use. The 90 sec cooldowns on passive traits would not be healthy in WvW where damage is higher, especially with traits that do not grant any kind of invuln (Arcane Shielding, Shared Anguish, Reactive Lenses, etc).

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@"Arcaedus.7290" said:The people here arguing that the passives should remain as is in wvw are speaking in generalities. Fact of the matter is that you spend more time in combat in pvp (per minute) than you do in wvw.

If the devs saw fit to nerf passives in pvp where the passives are most helpful, then they shouldn't have reservations about nerfing passives in wvw where the passives are less helpful over time. Fights are over more quickly in wvw anyway since damage is higher.

Passives are of the most use when facing a high burst build where the tiniest delay in player reaction or a bit of lag will result in a player going from 100 to 0 without ever getting a single skill of their own off (most commonly seen against glass high stealth builds). sPvP limits the size of teams and you'll never see a team composed fully of such glassy builds as they'd never be able to hold anything. WvW doesn't have this limitation, and encountering one gank toon after another is entirely possible and even likely when roaming or in smallscale. With the traits as they currently are in WvW, if it's been at least 60 secs or so since the last thing tried to gank you, then the trait has a chance to proc again.

The cooldowns for passive traits should get extended only after burst damage from stealth has been toned down.

in your burst scenario its not important if skill like defy pain last 2 sec or 4, burst get still negated. so there is no Problem in Shorter the Duration. but the Overall uptime of invuls get reduced. so e.g. the warrior cannot live 15+ sec just carried by invuls. and thats what i mean, negating spike is okay,. but with the current uptimes, invul using classes dont Need to react to enemies, they just yolo pushing without any risk, and thats brainless/skilless playstyle that Need to get nerfed.

sPvP got a blanket treatment of most passive traits getting a 90 sec base cooldown. Duration of invulnerabilities was not touched this patch with the exception of Signet of Stone. These 90 sec cooldowns went to more than just invuln traits as passively procced stunbreaks or blocks got them as well, leading to a greater nerf to said stunbreaks and blocks than the actual invulns (example from engi: Reactive Lenses got a 50 sec increase whereas Self-Regulating Defenses only got a 15 sec increase).

The Signet of Stone change was a healthy one for rangers. It allows for more skilled use. The 90 sec cooldowns on passive traits would not be healthy in WvW where damage is higher, especially with traits that do not grant any kind of invuln (Arcane Shielding, Shared Anguish, Reactive Lenses, etc).

passive traits should safe you if you failed to dodge, some sort of backup. it shouldnt carry you all the time, thats the reason its ever called lesser "anything". but where is lesser endure pain (from defy pain) lesser than endure pain? that are equal skills, but it shoudll be a weaker form of it. also because there is no counterplay to being invul, uptime for those invuls shouldnt be 50% of time in a fight. short Durations to negate spike if you predict it, thats good, but uptimes of 10 seconds or more by using twice of them is just OP. uptime Need to reduced, so higher cooldowns are the way to go. while i also would prefer e.g. pvp version of endure pain (30 sec cd, 2 sec Duration). good Players can do more with that Version, bad Players would die faster. more skilled base playstyle would be supported. thats really healthy to wvw.

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The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course). That's saying something given the current state of those professions in roaming.Invulns counter power spikes, not cc nor condi. If you can't play around those invulns, you should probably get off power and roll a condi build. Easier to let a faceroll build do the work for you instead of changing your rotations, right?

You can still CC a Warrior or Ranger in invuln. Engis are laughable easy to catch up to even after they proc both of their invulns.If these classes are hugging towers or keeps, just move on. You're not going to stomp them and they won't be contributing much for their world anyways.If you're blobbing and still can't kill one of these classes, give credit where it's due. It's more on the blob for not being able to damage/CC properly than it is on the other player being carried by his/her build.

Good mesmers pick better targets to burst. Better mesmers can change how they engage to kill those pesky invuln classes.Thieves complaining about Endure Pain? Sorry, warriors kind of counter thieves in general; changing that would change how counters work. Still, good thieves can beat bad warriors. If you're not beating a warrior as a thief, you can improve.If you're a Ranger, I can only suggest "learn to play". You have 1700 range, multiple access to stealth, and many gap closers/openers. I can count the number of good Rangers I've faced that can kite well on one hand.

Here's some tips on Warriors and Rangers (I don't play Engi so I can't help out there):If a Ranger is running passive Signet of Stone, it is probably running a group build focused on ranged poke, not the super fast escape Ranger/Soulbeast. You can catch up (granted you're not a Rev, Guard, or Necro) easily and CC them until the invulns run out. Druids are a little harder than Marksmanship core Ranger or Soulbeast, but it's still possible. If the Druid is running some tank/healing variant, you're likely not going to kill this class regardless of how many invulns it has. It's a trolly build based on not dying, and won't kill anyone remotely competent.If you see a Warrior running around alone, chances are he/she is running Berserker Stance and Endure Pain. That means the passive Balanced Stance is their only form of stability. If it's a bubblebot SpellBreaker, they only have one Endure Pain. If the warrior is running all three stances, that means they're not running Bull's Charge, and are much easier to catch up to (although I've never seen a Warrior run all three stances).

The only invuln class that is overtuned is Mirage, but everybody knows that. All we can do is wait for a future balance patch.

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@"nativity.3057" said:The only invuln class that is overtuned is Mirage, but everybody knows that. All we can do is wait for a future balance patch.Yet druids can outsustain them, spellbreakers roflstomp them and thieves outdamage them. Maybe its a "learn to play" thing?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"nativity.3057" said:The only invuln class that is overtuned is Mirage, but everybody knows that. All we can do is wait for a future balance patch.Yet druids can outsustain them, spellbreakers roflstomp them and thieves outdamage them. Maybe its a "learn to play" thing?

Joke all you want, but it's truth that the class is currently overtuned. Overtuned doesn't mean "omg i can't kill this class, too easy too strong Anet pls nerf", but means that the class does a bit of everything while still being a Mesmer. There's a reason why it's still the best PvP class.

Next time, instead of pinpointing on the last sentence, try to actively contribute to the conversation.

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The sPvP nerfs would be good on WvW too, but we are in dire need of some damage nerfs....having your 20K health pool oblitered in less then a sec is absurd...even more absurd is this profession that is able to do 20K damage being able to do it while invulnerable lol no serious devs would allow this to be a thing.

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@nativity.3057 said:The only players that can complain about passive invulns are roaming guards, revs, and necros (power of course).

I main Engi and I hate the passive S proc. It interrupts my skills (heal, stealth, etc), locks me out of cleans when condi bombed, is predictable in general and it makes outnumbered fights a lot harder and unfun if you play against it. Problem is, the other trait options are so utter garbage that its better to live with that than having basically nothing at all. Warri is in a simular spot even though EP is way stronger. We need strong active options that reward people who dont want to rely on passive procs. Until then Id gladly take the nerfs to those unfun traits in WvW.

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