EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

[Memoranda.9386]

There is a distinct lack of compassion from a dedicated group of individuals looking to keep pushing this narrative around.

JP reacted badly, clearly. Everyone understands that.

What should have happened is not what is happening, in that now 3 topics on these forums, as well a few related topics are currently kicking around the forums, not to mention Reddit and Twitter.

She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

The comments should have been addressed to ArenaNet directly and left at that. Everything else smacks of manufactured outrage to issue "justice" for her verbal slights.

[Raizel.8175]

@rrusse.7058 said:

@"Raizel.8175" said:

After all, the game is lacking in quality lately (Kourna was horrible gameplay-wise and ending the story abruptly by abusing a deus ex machina isn't all that great either) and ANet doesn't produce the impression that they actually care (not a single question of importance was answered in the latest AMA).

I dunno, previous episodes in Season 3 were not amazing either. I know I enjoyed 'A Crack in the Ice' even though so many in the community and on reddit say they felt that was the weakest of all episodes. We don't even know the total head count of devs that specifically worked on this last episode do we? If not then I don't know if it's that fair to say the quality and effort is bad. I don't know how many people they had at their disposal, how much time they had, how much money and so on.

They said that the teams producing LW-episodes got merged and that's one of the reasons for the delay of E3. So they at least got a lot more internal feedback on their work and ideas. So yeah, team size shouldn't matter, especially not if you consider the horrible implementation of E3.

Does the game need improvement? Sure, you're never at your best so you might as well try to improve. Has the quality dipped so low that its with dinosaur bones? I don't think we've hit that point and hope we never do.

The game has some fundamental flaws that they need to finally adress. The problem is that they just don't care - at all. The game is getting stale and a lot of people get bored. A lot of friends - even people who played the game since launch - just don't feel the love anymore. Sure, quality hasn't dropped that significantly low, but the game truly does suffer from "ubification". Content is simply too formulaic lately and fails to impress.

The most important thing is that we let Arenanet know that we just don't appreciate this sort of behavior. Regardless of stress and whether or not you are on holiday, treating anyone like this is not acceptable.

Agreed.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

@rrusse.7058 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:

After all, the game is lacking in quality lately (Kourna was horrible gameplay-wise and ending the story abruptly by abusing a deus ex machina isn't all that great either) and ANet doesn't produce the impression that they actually care (not a single question of importance was answered in the latest AMA).

I dunno, previous episodes in Season 3 were not amazing either. I know I enjoyed 'A Crack in the Ice' even though so many in the community and on reddit say they felt that was the weakest of all episodes. We don't even know the total head count of devs that specifically worked on this last episode do we? If not then I don't know if it's that fair to say the quality and effort is bad. I don't know how many people they had at their disposal, how much time they had, how much money and so on.

Does the game need improvement? Sure, you're never at your best so you might as well try to improve. Has the quality dipped so low that its with dinosaur bones? I don't think we've hit that point and hope we never do.

The most important thing is that we let Arenanet know that we just don't appreciate this sort of behavior. Regardless of stress and whether or not you are on holiday, treating anyone like this is not acceptable.

A Crack in the Ice was awesome. Bitterfrost is one of the prettiest maps, alongside Bloodstone fen. It makes me sad that a lot of the newer maps aren't as visually appealing, maybe 'cause it's assumed that we will go through them on mounts.

And yes, I hope ANET is listening to player feedback about this issue, though I am not sure how much listening will be able to help them. Honestly, I do feel for the company. I have worked doing marketing/PR type stuff enough in the past to feel for whoever has to deal with this. Luckily, none of my employers ever had to deal with something this big, but we did a case-study about some businesses at my business college who made some pretty bad mess-ups.

[Dreadshow.9320]

@rrusse.7058 said:@Dreadshow.9320Well I don't know if it has to go so far as to reach share holders. I imagine this is going to affect the company as a whole on how social media is handled for sure though. On the idea of an apology, I don't know. Do people even want one now?

Thing is management will probably won't do anything if share holders don't mention it in a meeting or golf game.

[Dashingsteel.3410]

Seems to me that this dev revels in her victim status as female game developer. I'd almost bet money that this victim status has been further enabled through company "sensitivity training" and corporate guidelines. She feels emboldened to wield her victim status as a weapon against any real or imagined foes. This doesn't surprise me a bit. This is simply the byproduct of pc culture.

I would be surprised if Anet does anything about this..... After all she was only discriminating against a man

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@castlemanic.3198 said:TL;DR: She reacted as any human being would to a response that was interpreted as the hatred she probably gets on a daily basis (as female game devs get far more online hatred than male game devs). However, I do believe her interpretations were off the mark. While I sympathise with her response, I won't justify it and don't condone it. But we do have to bring a measure of understanding and compassion to the table, especially in cases where it's known for a fact that someone can get a disproportionate amount of online hate.

An unwarranted lashing out like that will enrage some people that weren't invested in these gender politics before. She's perpetuating the cycle of hatred and she should not be excused.

[Swagger.1459]

@Vavume.8065 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

Wanna bet 10k gold thread gets shut down?

Clever, seeing as they will then shut it down for gambling...

Where did you come up with that lol? Show me where betting my gold vs someone else's gold is some type of offense...

[Ardid.7203]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> GoodExpert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

That is precisely why I added the 4th point:Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need. Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

[Gorden.5483]

@"castlemanic.3198" said:

1. Female game devs get a lot more hate than male devs. That's just a fact of life

Can you be sure of that though? There is a difference between female devs getting more hate than male devs and female devs expressing the hate they experience more than male devs do.I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying I don't know and I think neither do you or anybody for that matter.In my personal, very limited experience, I actually see more male devs being criticised in my twitter feed than female devs, but as I said, my personal experience is as limited as anybody else's.I'm sure some female devs do get more criticism than some male devs do, but also vice versa. It's a very difficult to generalize problem.

TL;DR: She reacted as any human being would to a response that was interpreted as the hatred she probably gets on a daily basis (as female game devs get far more online hatred than male game devs). However, I do believe her interpretations were off the mark. While I sympathise with her response, I won't justify it and don't condone it. But we do have to bring a measure of understanding and compassion to the table, especially in cases where it's known for a fact that someone can get a disproportionate amount of online hate.

See, the problem I have with this argument is, even if she get's criticised on a daily basis it doesn't automatically give her a free ticket to project this hate to anybody she wants.It's the basic principle of "don't let your anger out on some innocent bystander".Does she constantly get hate and criticism? I don't know, maybe. And if she does she should still stay calm and polite to anyone who has literally nothing to do with the criticism she receives.It seems to me, that she generally responds to criticism very poorly. To be honest, nobody likes personal criticism, but when it comes to professional criticism I think almost any criticism is of value. And if whatever criticism she received has already been discussed, either publicly or internally, she can just say so and state she doesn't want to discuss it again.

Losing your temper this badly and resorting to these kind of schemes to portray yourself in a victim-role shows a profound lack of social skills.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

@"Memoranda.9386" said:There is a distinct lack of compassion from a dedicated group of individuals looking to keep pushing this narrative around.

JP reacted badly, clearly. Everyone understands that.

What should have happened is not what is happening, in that now 3 topics on these forums, as well a few related topics are currently kicking around the forums, not to mention Reddit and Twitter.

She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

The comments should have been addressed to ArenaNet directly and left at that. Everything else smacks of manufactured outrage to issue "justice" for her verbal slights.

The fact that something fits your narrative, doesn't mean it's actually true. Besides, a certain male employer has been named several times as well, with the same conclusion drawn from his words as are drawn from hers. Everything gets dragged relentlessly throughout social media these days. You'd have to be born yesterday to not be aware of that. It doesn't mean, though, that all that's being said is invalid. Filter the trolls and focus on the valid arguments. That's how you deal with any discussion forum on the Internet, for years now.

[Jabari.7026]

I genuinely think she should be suspended, if not fired. This behavior should not be accepted by any means.The guy is the most chill guy on Twitch I’ve ever seen, much support to him!

[castlemanic.3198]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:An unwarranted lashing out like that will enrage some people that weren't invested in these gender politics before. She's perpetuating the cycle of hatred and she should not be excused.

Not saying she should be excused. I've mentioned multiple times that her actions are unjustified and I do not condone them. And I agree, this is a perpetuation of the cycle of hatred.

But there also needs to be compassion brought into this, to understand that game devs, and specifically female game devs, get far more hate than most realise, and coming to an understanding that, while the response is inexcusable, that there is a reason that point was reached, and to have the discussion around that. We cannot and should not stand by when the cycle of hatred is perpetuated by anyone, especially when that person is of some importance to the community we're in. We need to call it out. But we also need to be aware of the situation surrounding the outburst too.

This isn't a one note thing and reducing the complexity of the situation to a singular line does no good to anyone, and only further aggravates and perpetuates the cycle of hatred.

[Tolmos.8395]

@Memoranda.9386 said:She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

While I agree that she should not be dragged through mud, I do not agree that this should be let go. Simply overlooking toxic behavior does not help to address that behavior and its impact on the victims involved.

[Haishao.6851]

I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it. It was definitely bad PR for Anrenanet as a company, but most of the people at the office today must be in complete support to her.Anet will do what they have always done in such situation, they will let it die on its own and just go on as usual. Adding to it will just make them look worse one way or another. She's definitely not the first or only one with these opinions at anet, and most likely not the last and so far it has never made people stop spending money on the game.

[Tolmos.8395]

@Haishao.6851 said:I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it.

Do you mean game devs? Because, as a software developer, I can't think of any dev that feels that way about their users >_>.

I can imagine maybe game devs get burned out or overworked, though and could lash out.

[Vieux P.1238]

Keep doing what your doing someone someone. (wink wink)
There's no chance to lose a community that way, something something. (wink wink)

[Tolmos.8395]

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> GoodExpert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

That is precisely why I added the 4th point:Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need. Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

Well, the response answers the question of "whats wrong" with everyone. If we simply ignore people who put others into danger of physical harm, and dont call that behavior out, there is no incentive for the person to not do it again in the future.

[Ashantara.8731]

And this is why you should have private social media accounts for posting your private opinions when you are not respresenting the company you work for.

I don't understand how someone can turn a conversation into a hate-discussion just like that, completely unrelated to the topic. This is usually a sign of mental instability and should concern the employer.

(P.S. I hate mysoginy, not just because I am a woman, but because it makes no sense and no one choses the gender they are born into, therefore gender should not matter and equality will hopefully prevail. But that was not the topic, right, so drawing the mysoginy card in a discussion just like that is absolutely disgraceful and only fuels mysoginists' opinion on women.)

[Zalavaaris.5329]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it.

Do you mean game devs? Because, as a software developer, I can't think of any dev that feels that way about their users >_>.

I can imagine maybe game devs get burned out or overworked, though and could lash out.

I'm actually a systems analyst and I agree. If a user came to me with criticism on an enhancement we have designed I would be removed from my position immediately if I lashed out like she did.

[Vieux P.1238]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ardid.7203 said:Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> GoodExpert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

That is precisely why I added the 4th point:Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need.

Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

Well, the response answers the question of "whats wrong" with everyone. If we simply ignore people who put others into danger of physical harm, and dont call that behavior out, there is no incentive for the person to not do it again in the future.

That's the full point. There is no discussion with Anet. You are shut down if you criticize or hint to criticize them. It has been discussed before . So what ever kinda suits it!

[Memoranda.9386]

@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

@"Memoranda.9386" said:There is a distinct lack of compassion from a dedicated group of individuals looking to keep pushing this narrative around.

JP reacted badly, clearly. Everyone understands that.

What

should

have happened is not what

is

happening, in that now 3 topics on these forums, as well a few related topics are currently kicking around the forums, not to mention Reddit and Twitter.

She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

The comments should have been addressed to ArenaNet directly and left at that. Everything else smacks of manufactured outrage to issue "justice" for her verbal slights.

The fact that something fits your narrative, doesn't mean it's actually true. Besides, a certain male employer has been named several times as well, with the same conclusion drawn from his words as are drawn from hers. Everything gets dragged relentlessly throughout social media these days. You'd have to be born yesterday to not be aware of that. It doesn't mean, though, that all that's being said is invalid. Filter the trolls and focus on the valid arguments. That's how you deal with any discussion forum on the Internet, for years now.

The reason I use the word "narrative" is because across 7 topics on these forums, the same group of individuals have been posting and reposting the same things. Any dissenting views are immediately slammed with calls of "PC culture gone too far!!!" and "But the Dev disrespect! Think of the children"

I've already addressed her remarks. Gross over-reaction. Anywhere you go, they are. But in her experience, I'm sure she felt they were justified. And everything that's come after is bolstering the initial reaction.

All the valid arguments have been made, from what I've read. The fact that after each topic is closed and a new one springs up... Doesn't that make you think, just a little bit, that some people are grinding their axes for JP?

I'm merely stating that the whole outrage seemed relentlessly pushed and forced, until it actually caught on, justified or not. And now it's a huge thing.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Gorden.5483" said:Can you be sure of that though? There is a difference between female devs getting more hate than male devs and female devs expressing the hate they experience more than male devs do.I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying I don't know and I think neither do you or anybody for that matter.In my personal, very limited experience, I actually see more male devs being criticised in my twitter feed than female devs, but as I said, my personal experience is as limited as anybody else's.I'm sure some female devs do get more criticism than some male devs do, but also vice versa. It's a very difficult to generalize problem.

I mean, have you seen the hate in response to the primary figure on the new battlefield game being a woman?Women in games media has always been a sore point in the industry, and they do factually get more hatred on average than the average male in the games industry.It doesn't mean men are immune to hatred or can't get more hatred than a singular female game dev. But the averages really do point towards female devs getting far more hate than male game devs, and women in games media as a whole.

See, the problem I have with this argument is, even if she get's criticised on a daily basis it doesn't automatically give her a free ticket to project this hate to anybody she wants.It's the basic principle of "don't let your anger out on some innocent bystander".Does she constantly get hate and criticism? I don't know, maybe. And if she does she should still stay calm and polite to anyone who has literally nothing to do with the criticism she receives.It seems to me, that she generally responds to criticism very poorly. To be honest, nobody likes personal criticism, but when it comes to professional criticism I think almost any criticism is of value. And if whatever criticism she received has already been discussed, either publicly or internally, she can just say so and state she doesn't want to discuss it again.

Losing your temper this badly and resorting to these kind of schemes to portray yourself in a victim-role shows a profound lack of social skills.

Never said she gets a free ticket. In that quote I mention her response is unjustified and that I do not condone it. What I am saying is that when entering the discussion, we must be aware of all the circumstances surrounding the situation. People reach a limit when they get inundated by online hate, and any response that is perceived as hate after that limit has been reached/exceeded will get a nasty response because the people who throw hate at you will never approach you with civility or kindness.

Does that mean she can do better? Of course it does. We can always improve, even when we are in the most stressful of situations. But taking the high ground is nowhere near as easy as you make it seem. And there's a world of a difference between hate and criticism. Which I must stress is what she failed to make a distinction of.

She failed to see the distinction between criticism and hate.

She perceived criticism as hate. Because there are malicious people online who will use 'genuine' criticism and 'genuine' questions to open up a debate where the person on the receiving end becomes inundated with some of the most passive aggressive to hateful comments and questions they've ever received. These people really do exist, people who will abuse good will in order to exhaust, frustrate and anger their target.

That does not excuse her. That does not give her a green light to lash out at anyone who says anything negative to her. There's a reason for it, but a reason is not an excuse. A reason only says why something happened. A reason does not replace the need for an apology.

That's what I'm trying to get at. The situation is far more complicated than a single line or paragraph can state. There's much more going on behind closed doors than simply a misinterpretation of genuine criticism. She DID react badly, in a manner that cannot be excused or condoned. But we have to be aware of the reason behind it before we can have a genuine discussion of the situation.

I should maybe remove the TL;DR, it's been misinterpreted a couple of times already which is what happens when you TL;DR a complex situation.

[Raizel.8175]

She should just publicy apologize and get some basic lessons in general human decency, manners and social media.

[Tolmos.8395]

@Raizel.8175 said:She should just publicy apologize and get some basic lessons in general human decency, manners and social media.

I would think she should, but there's a chance they may have told her to stop talking about it entirely. I know I would, if I were her manager. So I wouldn't hold that against her.

(I haven't looked at her twitter since, so if she's still talking about it disregard what I just said)

[Haishao.6851]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it.

Do you mean game devs? Because, as a software developer, I can't think of any dev that feels that way about their users >_>.

I can imagine maybe game devs get burned out or overworked, though and could lash out.

Yes, I meant game developers.They receive a lot of love and praise because of the game they work on. It is rarely directed at them as individual, but they take it since it's their work that get praised. It often over inflate their ego and start seeing themselves as overly important. Same thing sometime happens with actors, comedians, musicians or other public figures that receive a lot of praise where they start to despise their fanbase.Gamers are also often portrayed as losers living in their parent basement so it reinforce the game dev's sentiment of superiority towards them.