Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[Countess Aire.9410]

The price of the Sigil of Nullification is to high for the return. ANET as usual catered to the money hungry power players and decided to leave the casual players to the mercy of those that can manipulate the market. This should have been addressed by Devs prior to releasing the requirements in the game. You end up having to create a create a character and boost it to the proper level get the sigil to drop of pay a market manipulator 360 gold for the for the three pants required to complete the achievement. This was very poor planning on Dev's part. This should be addressed. These collections are getting to expensive or so time consuming that it is taking all the fun out of playing the game. Grinding for gear is not a good way for a player to spend their time. The story is great and I can see doing events for parts of the armor. But when you hide everything behind parts that can be controlled by a select few. That takes the enjoyment of the game is lost and completing living stories are waste of time and money if you want the latest achievements. This is getting worse. The Dev's are punishing the casual players in favor of the hard core players. This should be addressed by the Devs before it gets to the point where the casual players start leaving the game.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Great, glad that after all this explanation you arrive exactly at what I stated: the initial flipped supply will have been used up or nearly used up by now(very unlikely that it's not used up).

Actually there is a very strong case to be made for pre patch supply having been used up since the risk of the price crashing, especially after the first 3 days and right before the first balance patch hit was quite high combined with the total amount of Sigils used on the armor and completion rate of the armor collection per day.

Given the very stable price of around 10-13 gold for an extended period of time with a rise on weekends, and the 15% tax which is required to be paid (which prevents restocking of Sigils for profit off flipping), it is quite reasonable to assume that the current price is where natural supply and demand would have brought it even without flippers. Rest assured, the initial flipping while pushing the price to equilibrium faster, which was stated by people myself included many pages back already, will have had no effect on the current price.

So again, unless you have concrete proof that people are flipping, you are complaining about other people selling a good at market value which you are unwilling to pay.

Perhaps you think we are on the same page, but i would not. You continue to assert a "very strong case" for prepatch supply being used up in the first 3 days. I doubt that the skilled flippers were doing more than dribble their stock back in that point. I look at the spike and drop on 5 Oct as clear evidence that flippers are still at play, and whether that is initial stock flip or later early investors flipping is really irrelevant since they are the same sigils being reintroduced in small bulk to the TP.

I am glad for you that you are confident that all that is left on the TP is from supply and demand, I do not share your confidence, and calling my lack of confidence "beyond silly" when 5 days ago they were still being flipped is reading the data very differently. However, you are set in your view and I am not going to change it and that is fine. You have your confidence, I have my concerns. Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money. At least with PoF & the elite spec weapons they had the courtesy to tell us ahead of time that they were going to cater to the TP investors and early adopters. But instead they announced upgradable armor as a major feature without any suggestion that it would be an "opportunity" to temper expectation on the part of the player base. And so they end up with 32 pages of angry invective as those of us who think this is wrong on many levels once again impotently voice our frustration. I say impotently because I doubt they will make any changes even were this to hit the same page/post count as some of the other responses to their missteps (mount skins).

[Obtena.7952]

@"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

[Dante.1763]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

Their negative interpretation is at least half accurate, and while announcing it wouldnt have made people happy, putting something like this armor /behind/ the trading post as one of the "content walls" you need to surpass to obtain it is just a terrible idea.

[Obtena.7952]

That doesn't make sense:

"WARNING: YOU MIGHT MAKE MONEY PLAYING THIS CONTENT"

???

It doesn't even make sense to 'warn' people they can buy something off the TP to do crafting; that's not exceptional, it's standard. There isn't anything terrible about getting crafting mats off the TP and paying market value for them ... it's the way the game works since forever.

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense:

"WARNING: YOU MIGHT MAKE MONEY PLAYING THIS CONTENT"

???

It doesn't even make sense to 'warn' people they can buy something off the TP to do crafting; that's not exceptional, it's standard. There isn't anything terrible about getting crafting mats off the TP and paying market value for them ... it's the way the game works since forever.

There has been plenty of comments on the vast distinction between these sigils and crafting mats.

I didn't say it is a surprise, I said that rather than announcing and setting expectations that everybody can get the armors as major features, they should have done what MO did with Path of Fire and give a heads up that some items were intended to have value. I don't remember his exact wording in the PoF video but that was the general gist, meaning that some would want them and some could sell them, but there would be limited supply.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

The fact that market manipulation might be intended doesn't in any way keep it from being manipulation. All you are saying is that Anet meant for it to be manipulated, which can be assumed but has yet to be established for certain since none of them have bothered to comment here. Their assumed intention does not negate its character.

Leaving aside your attempts to drag real world politics into the discussion, forewarning would not have made folks any happier now, but it might have gone a ways to help set expectations that they intended for some things to be suddenly expensive, without tipping their hand as to what. But instead you see the vocal minority here on the forums and reddit who want this armor, who thought they would be able to earn this armor, but find the way it has been handled morally reprehensible, cost prohibitive or both.

[Gop.8713]

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense:

"WARNING: YOU MIGHT MAKE MONEY PLAYING THIS CONTENT"

???

It doesn't even make sense to 'warn' people they can buy something off the TP to do crafting; that's not exceptional, it's standard. There isn't anything terrible about getting crafting mats off the TP and paying market value for them ... it's the way the game works since forever.

There has been plenty of comments on the vast distinction between these sigils and crafting mats.

I didn't say it is a surprise, I said that rather than announcing and setting expectations that everybody can get the armors as major features, they should have done what MO did with Path of Fire and give a heads up that some items were intended to have value. I don't remember his exact wording in the PoF video but that was the general gist, meaning that some would want them and some could sell them, but there would be limited supply.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

The fact that market manipulation might be intended doesn't in any way keep it from being manipulation. All you are saying is that Anet meant for it to be manipulated, which can be assumed but has yet to be established for certain since none of them have bothered to comment here. Their assumed intention does not negate its character.

Leaving aside your attempts to drag real world politics into the discussion, forewarning would not have made folks any happier now, but it might have gone a ways to help set expectations that they intended for some things to be suddenly expensive, without tipping their hand as to what. But instead you see the vocal minority here on the forums and reddit who want this armor, who thought they would be able to earn this armor, but find the way it has been handled morally reprehensible, cost prohibitive or both.

I'm just a big fan of communication generally. Even now some comment as to whether this was or wasn't anticipated would go a long way towards ending the frustration. Refraining from comment seems an odd choice . . .

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense:

"WARNING: YOU MIGHT MAKE MONEY PLAYING THIS CONTENT"

???

It doesn't even make sense to 'warn' people they can buy something off the TP to do crafting; that's not exceptional, it's standard. There isn't anything terrible about getting crafting mats off the TP and paying market value for them ... it's the way the game works since forever.

There has been plenty of comments on the vast distinction between these sigils and crafting mats.

I didn't say it is a surprise, I said that rather than announcing and setting expectations that everybody can get the armors as major features, they should have done what MO did with Path of Fire and give a heads up that some items were intended to have value. I don't remember his exact wording in the PoF video but that was the general gist, meaning that some would want them and some could sell them, but there would be limited supply.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

The fact that market manipulation might be intended doesn't in any way keep it from being manipulation. All you are saying is that Anet meant for it to be manipulated, which can be assumed but has yet to be established for certain since none of them have bothered to comment here. Their assumed intention does not negate its character.

Leaving aside your attempts to drag real world politics into the discussion, forewarning would not have made folks any happier now, but it might have gone a ways to help set expectations that they intended for some things to be suddenly expensive, without tipping their hand as to what. But instead you see the vocal minority here on the forums and reddit who want this armor, who thought they would be able to earn this armor, but find the way it has been handled morally reprehensible, cost prohibitive or both.

I'm just a big fan of communication generally. Even now some comment as to whether this was or wasn't anticipated would go a long way towards ending the frustration. Refraining from comment seems an odd choice . . .

Keeping silent is almost never the good choice, but it's quite often a reasonable choice for a company like Anet.Currently, there's grumbling in this thread. A few people are voicing negative opinions.A statement, any statement, is likely to piss off more people and draw more attention to the subject, which whether or not Anet considers it a problem is definitely inflamed!

[Qaju.2058]

If a Tome of Knowledge is one level gained or a spirit shard gained on a level 80 character, why doesn't Arenanet allow the reverse?

Let players use their pool of spirit shards to buy back Tomes of Knowledge with their shards, allowing us to use our surplus of shards to get to lvl64 multiple times to get the Sigil of Nullification.

[Gop.8713]

@Tanner Blackfeather.6509 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't make sense:

"WARNING: YOU MIGHT MAKE MONEY PLAYING THIS CONTENT"

???

It doesn't even make sense to 'warn' people they can buy something off the TP to do crafting; that's not exceptional, it's standard. There isn't anything terrible about getting crafting mats off the TP and paying market value for them ... it's the way the game works since forever.

There has been plenty of comments on the vast distinction between these sigils and crafting mats.

I didn't say it is a surprise, I said that rather than announcing and setting expectations that everybody can get the armors as major features, they should have done what MO did with Path of Fire and give a heads up that some items were intended to have value. I don't remember his exact wording in the PoF video but that was the general gist, meaning that some would want them and some could sell them, but there would be limited supply.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Moira Shalaar.5620 said:Either way, I still think that this is a design failure on the part of Anet. Either they failed to anticipate the dual parts of market manipulation, which would be insanely stupid on their part since it happens every time they create an opportunity, or they failed to announce that their intent is for these collections are and "opportunity" for players to make money.

That's a really negative interpretation, considering there isn't anything exceptional about how Anet implemented this. The market 'manipulation' can only be intended, as it's the only way for prices to re-normalize when game conditions change. It also doesn't make sense to announce new content might result in players making mone These effects are commonplace for new content and game condition changes; no one that has been paying attention to how the game works should be alarmed that this happened. Let's not be proposition 65 here and pretend that labeling this would have made the complainers happy.

The fact that market manipulation might be intended doesn't in any way keep it from being manipulation. All you are saying is that Anet meant for it to be manipulated, which can be assumed but has yet to be established for certain since none of them have bothered to comment here. Their assumed intention does not negate its character.

Leaving aside your attempts to drag real world politics into the discussion, forewarning would not have made folks any happier now, but it might have gone a ways to help set expectations that they intended for some things to be suddenly expensive, without tipping their hand as to what. But instead you see the vocal minority here on the forums and reddit who want this armor, who thought they would be able to earn this armor, but find the way it has been handled morally reprehensible, cost prohibitive or both.

I'm just a big fan of communication generally. Even now some comment as to whether this was or wasn't anticipated would go a long way towards ending the frustration. Refraining from comment seems an odd choice . . .

Keeping silent is almost never the

good

choice, but it's quite often a

reasonable

choice for a company like Anet.Currently, there's grumbling in this thread. A few people are voicing negative opinions.A statement,

any

statement, is likely to kitten off more people

and

draw more attention to the subject, which whether or not Anet considers it a problem is definitely inflamed!

Yeah, that's true. It's fair to say there are reasons not to comment as well I suppose. Just leaving it out there flopping around like an exposed nerve in the meantime has consequences also . . .

It's not the same thing at all but the experience is similar to when the sunken chests were bugged for some ppl. It was probably only about a week between when the issue arose and anet commented on it but that time felt like forever, with some ppl complaining about the bug, some ppl not experiencing the bug and therefore insisting it didn't really exist, etc. Rationally everyone had to know that anet was aware of the problem and working to fix it, which they did and everything was resolved no harm no foul. But the lasting impression for me is from the time between the problem and the communication. Same thing here, it doesn't really matter that much whether they introduce new supply at this point, the lasting impression will be from the first few weeks when we were left rudderless . . .

[Bazs.1470]

@Lambent.6375 said:

@"Bazs.1470" said:The fact that no developer touched the forum thread sends a clear message that the devs do not care about this problem. Every time they had an intention to fix something, someone from the devs come and left at least a single sentecte that "We're working on the fix" or something like that.

Not fixing this mess is not that bad on their side: they had one more sigil that have value in the game, they have something that people can farm and sink their gold into while they can't drop new content for another 3-4 months, they can tell that the game have more "prestigious rewards" for dedicated players. After all, people will eventually move on and forget that a

bunch of exotic armor skins are more expensive than a full set of ascended armor

. The only shame is the game fell this low on what is considered to be interesting long-term content: farm gold, that is not even connected to any of the new content, because you run raid, fractal or other stuff to get money, not running around the new map.

If this will be the method of giving the playerbase interesting rewards is the future, then the game might have some issues.

Working as intended it, fits the "grind for skins, not stats" ideal.

People didn't want vertical progression, so they replace the grind with skins instead, trying to appeal to the mmo players that prefer the grind, and now people even want to get rid of even that. :/

You totally miss my point.I do not want to get rid of the grind, I know it's an essential part of an endgame of the MMOs, but I be happy to see if the grind is connected to the new content, not to the ones I saw a thousand of times before (the ones are actually profitable to do). Especially because they somehow manage to not screw this up before with the armor set you can buy on the Silverwastes. I happily poured my hours into that, because I actually did the new content of that time and I wasn't forced to go back grind simple gold. That is my main problem, not that you need to grind for the armor.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@aleron.1438 said:If a Tome of Knowledge is one level gained or a spirit shard gained on a level 80 character, why doesn't Arenanet allow the reverse?

Let players use their pool of spirit shards to buy back Tomes of Knowledge with their shards, allowing us to use our surplus of shards to get to lvl64 multiple times to get the Sigil of Nullification.

Because spirit shards are earned from other sources too. It’ll also undermine leveling new characters as you can essentially “farm experience” on existing ones.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.

[Deimos.4263]

Intentionally high-priced or not, we may never know. I feel sorry for whoever worked so hard to make this armor set that will rarely be seen. Good job, whoever you are.

[Gop.8713]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.

Aw, that's mean. I really doubt that's it. I imagine the failure to fix it stems from either a reluctance to introduce a fix after the problem has gone on long enough to affect so many ppl, or just a general apathy/lack of time type thing, too busy with the next thing to mess with something that's already out there. Remember, this just sucks, it's not actually game-breaking . . .

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.Also this, yes. Anet never, ever admits it made a mistake, no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. To the point that they'll come up with convoluted "solutions" to problems

they

caused rather than just undoing the original change.

See also: basically everything related to leather prices over the last year or two.

[MachineManXX.9746]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.

Aw, that's mean. I really doubt that's it. I imagine the failure to fix it stems from either a reluctance to introduce a fix after the problem has gone on long enough to affect so many ppl, or just a general apathy/lack of time type thing, too busy with the next thing to mess with something that's already out there. Remember, this just sucks, it's not actually game-breaking . . .

Or, as many have said, there is nothing to "fix" ... (Fix implies something is not working as intended).

[Astralporing.1957]

@MachineManXX.9746 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.

Aw, that's mean. I really doubt that's it. I imagine the failure to fix it stems from either a reluctance to introduce a fix after the problem has gone on long enough to affect so many ppl, or just a general apathy/lack of time type thing, too busy with the next thing to mess with something that's already out there. Remember, this just sucks, it's not actually game-breaking . . .

Or, as many have said, there is nothing to "fix" ... (Fix implies something is not working as intended).Well, if that end result was something they really intended to happen, that would be even worse, actually.

[phandaria.4891]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.Also this, yes. Anet never, ever admits it made a mistake, no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. To the point that they'll come up with convoluted "solutions" to problems

they

caused rather than just undoing the original change.

See also: basically everything related to leather prices over the last year or two.

Anet did make leather price more convoluted, sadly. The solution is clear, is to "stimulate" market instead of leaving it to hoarders/TP barons to inflate the price, similar to what govt/central banks have done. The idea is not to pump more sigil to the market, but forcing those hoarders to release their asset by introducing slow but sure other way to get the sigil.

[Obtena.7952]

@phandaria.4891 said:

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I feel like if they were going to fix it it would have been last Tuesday. Once Halloween comes ppl will forget about this and move on to the next thing . . .

Maybe it’s more complex then we realize.

Yes. Fixing it would mean admitting to being wrong.Also this, yes. Anet never, ever admits it made a mistake, no matter how obvious it is to everyone else. To the point that they'll come up with convoluted "solutions" to problems

they

caused rather than just undoing the original change.

See also: basically everything related to leather prices over the last year or two.

Anet did make leather price more convoluted, sadly. The solution is clear, is to "stimulate" market instead of leaving it to hoarders/TP barons to inflate the price, similar to what govt/central banks have done. The idea is not to pump more sigil to the market, but forcing those hoarders to release their asset by introducing slow but sure other way to get the sigil.

Yup ... this nails it. It's not about 'admitting mistakes' because there isn't a rulebook Anet has to follow. IF they decide to do anything, it's likely going to be a market correction ... done with some ingame activity, like they did with leather and Doric Lake. Frankly, I don't think it's a big enough deal to do something so specialized for this, so the chances are low.

[KhryzisOP.1069]

The price will begin dropping hours or 1-2 days after it has peaked. Probably within 1 week.

No, the price will not reach 2s any time soon, but that is not a health place for a Sigil te be in any way.

It is about getting the shiny now. Price insensitive buyers are willing to purchase their Sigils now not willing to wait until prices drop. Over an entire market this causes a massive spike.

hmmmm. seems to have quadrupled, and not dropped. good call. feel free to grind to level 64 25 times to get the sigils to replenish the supply.

[Linken.6345]

@KhryzisOP.1069 said:

The price will begin dropping hours or 1-2 days after it has peaked. Probably within 1 week.

No, the price will not reach 2s any time soon, but that is not a health place for a Sigil te be in any way.

It is about getting the shiny now. Price insensitive buyers are willing to purchase their Sigils now not willing to wait until prices drop. Over an entire market this causes a massive spike.

hmmmm. seems to have quadrupled, and not dropped. good call. feel free to grind to level 64 25 times to get the sigils to replenish the supply.

Well it was 15-16 gold and down to 12 now so seem to be going down slowly.

[KhryzisOP.1069]

I personally have not seen it at 15, I saw it at 10, then 12 yesterday, and 13 today.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@"KhryzisOP.1069" said:I personally have not seen it at 15, I saw it at 10, then 12 yesterday, and 13 today.

Several sites offer TP history, such as tjis one: https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/24572-Superior-Sigil-of-Nullification

[Carighan.6758]

Honestly given the state of the economy something taking excess materials off the market in thousands is really good.

Buuuuut, it shouldn't only target something which is already rare to begin with, especially because frankly no one needs/wants these sigils. If it were any superior sigil but we'd need many many many more, that'd be good.