Stop Complaining About Scrapper, It Isn't OP - Now With Video Proof

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Yeah, welcome to the forums where reason matters little and whine wins. You want to know where the Scrapper is OP comes from? Players who are not playing the class disliking playing against it.

Scrapper is going to see the same treatment as Mirage, especially if it becomes more popular. Welcome to the other end of the nerf whines.

In this instance I think the saying "you reap what you sow" comes to mind. I'm still waiting to see how it plays out at the upper level but there's no doubt scrapper right now is incredibly easy to play and very rewarding.

Also lol at weaver damage potential being A- while scrapper being C at best, such bias.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Cyninja.2954Dunno man. I would see on average 3 to 4 Condi Mirages a game. This was not unusual before the patch.

If we assume Mirage was as represented as you say (not going to agree or disagree since it is beside the point I am trying to convey), if Scrapper has taken its place representation wise, wouldn't common logic dictate that something needs to be done? Just going by simple numbers of activity which are a lot more unbiased than individuals reasoning and comparing classes and skills?

@apharma.3741 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Yeah, welcome to the forums where reason matters little and whine wins. You want to know where the Scrapper is OP comes from? Players who are not playing the class disliking playing against it.

Scrapper is going to see the same treatment as Mirage, especially if it becomes more popular. Welcome to the other end of the nerf whines.

In this instance I think the saying "you reap what you sow" comes to mind. I'm still waiting to see how it plays out at the upper level but there's no doubt scrapper right now is incredibly easy to play and very rewarding.

Also lol at weaver damage potential being A- while scrapper being C at best, such bias.

Oh absolutely. Hence why I personally do not care a lot about all this "class xyz needs adjusting so class abc gets better" (unless something can absolutely not get countered in a competitive field). You are bound to end up on the receiving end, guaranteed. Any players who are actually interested in mastering a game mode (no difference if it's pve, spvp or wvw) will adapt to the meta anyway and play builds and classes which excel at that point in time. People who decide to stick to 1 or 2 classes and demand those are competitive are already fighting themselves and their inefficiency.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:It pushes

a little

into weaver's only halfway proper role though, a tanky side noder with few damage and surpasses it with group support and stuff like ress power and stealth. Meh.

Dont undersell it, they offer healing, barrier, condi conversion (this is incredibly strong, removal is one thing, another very different beast is to turn those debilitating condis into advantages, thats why boon conversion is stronger than condi removal and why scourages are still very, very relevant specially when paired with a support that can keep them alive). Stealth is also very important, imagine a mobile shadow refuge that does not penalize for leaving early, and that can be further extended by blasting the field, it allows resses/stomps, the ones that can be hard to deny with a revive signet, and thats not counting that the person revived and the scrapper themselves get superspeed and barrier after each revive, and if the field is on top of them, things get messier. Weavers can stall too, but have nowhere near that level of team support.

I think this goes just beyond numbers, Im not saying they are the do-it-all-be-all powerful beasts that completely changes the game, but they are in a far stronger position that many people are willing to give them credit for. Not everyone needs to be a burst machine, sometimes all you need is a support to keep those damage dealers alive through it all, and my experience in videogames playing supports is that our job often goes unnoticed because we dont get BIG RED NUMBERS so in the mind of most DPS focused players (majority of people in any game I have ever played, and why it is so hard to get a darn second support in OW) it is all about the damage and nothing else, except those they cant kill with that damage, which is why there is so much complain about scrappers now (and mesmers, they are hard to kill, if at all), except that scrappers can now make it so it is harder to kill their teammates too.

It has been long since eles have had a viable damage build (3+ years to be exact), last time we were relevant was when HoT dropped, and not because of our strength, but because we were giving chronobunkers the sustain they needed to survive the downtime on some abilities which would otherwise prevent them from keeping a cap, and when the chronobunker went away, so did tempest (after we got more nerfs to our sustain, because of chronobunkers, but we were never compensated back after they nerfed what was causing tempest to shine; chronobunkers). This was about 2 years+ ago now. We have no proper damage and no proper support build, only the self-healing-far-stall-troll weaver builds, which had core ele further nerfed (staff nerfs thanks to weaver damage in PvE, air traits in several aspects not just the electric aura on stun).

It is the weaver nobody/everybody has been asking for. :wink:

It is what weaver could have been. But I still think these builds are kind of boring and unhealthy, I would like weaver to become more holo/spellbreakerish, not more tanky. Same goes for scrapper. We will see how they handle it, I just think it is not as bad as people thought.

Now I am just mad because another class/spec got a rework before ele.

Weaver is already like holo/spellbreaker, the "sustain" offered by sword barely keep up with the them and I don't get how people would expect weaver to be like holo/spellbreaker by buffing dmg and nerfing sword sustain , anything that hopes to be considered viable these days must have level of sustain in line with 2019 powercreep..no with the old idea of balance pre-Hot...

it simply wouldn't never work

Holosmith still has : stealth -perma boon - easy stab and chainable CC...on top of superior dmg thx to perma might stacks and greater dmg coefficient and how exactly would you plan to turn ele into that by starting nerfing the very thing which makes weaver relevant at all in the first place?

Right now weaver has more sustain than spellbreaker and holosmith. Which is why it can hold points so well.

I never asked for nerfs to sustain (except when talking about general reduction in condi spam, then the cleanses need nerfs) in the current state. I asked for buffs to damage, not to its sustain. When you land a nice dual skill combo of Gale Strike and Pyro Vortex and the enemy doesn't even need to use a stun break or a dodge... that is what feels very unsatisfying.

Increase ranges and radii first (e.g. Pyro Vortex like rev sword 4 Shackling Wave). Usually I would say stick to this change first, but since Anet likes to ignore any ele input and significant changes, I'll add increase damage coefficients (not base damage) to give incentive for more offensive amulets (like avatar's for a start, maybe demolisher) and buff the weaver vitality bonus and give it to other weapons too immediately.

Team support would be nice too, but that would require a rework of ele and we all know mesmer, ranger, thief, necro, rev, guard and warrior will get one before ele. Oh, and engi, I guess, has a "me before ele" card left too. So just stick to changing numbers. Boy, I am deeply disappointed. :lol:

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"apharma.3741" said:Also lol at weaver damage potential being A- while scrapper being C at best, such bias.

It's true though. Couple examples of what I mean:

1. I get on node vs. Grimjack on weaver, and that shit deals damage to me. I get on node vs. Matthias testing a full dps burst build utilizing sneak gyro for ganks, and he can barely land the burst or any follow up dps due to how ridiculously telegraphed everything is on scrapper. Resulting in a situation where a weaver running sage's or something, is dealing significantly more damage than a scrapper running berserker.
2. My full dps berserker soulbeast is becoming something I can log into and play in even ranked matches much more often again, when circumstances are right to play it. The reason is because scrapper damage methods are so easy to avoid and deal so little damage, that the full dps berserker soulbeast can get real aggressive with the scrapper and not worry about dying, while it counters the scrapper hard with 20k mauls and worldy impacts "these it cannot reflect". This is mainly for two reasons: (a) Scrapper damage is easy to avoid close range and it is low damage (b) Even when low on health and running, the scrapper can't seal the deal on a kill when you kite to reset. If you were to try and get ON-NODE with a berserker LB soulbeast vs. any of the other side noders, Weaver/Other Rangers/Spellbreakers/Chronobunkers you'd be dead in seconds, and if you tried to run while low, they can actually chase you and seal the deal on kills.

That grade for "Damage Potential" was to incorporate a mixture of raw damage potential and ability to actually land practical damage. This is why Weaver was graded as only slightly lower than Spellbreaker for Spellbreaker's normal damage routines outside of Rampage which is graded S+ for its duration, and why Scrapper is graded C, because it can't land its damage to kill anything unless its opponent is a potato.

@Mathias.9657 Indeed @Lincolnbeard.1735 is correct.

@"Swagg.9236" said:You can't refresh anything if you have rogue elements running around as invulnerable, regenerating, stability tanks which are also DPS classes. If you have multiple classes which do everything that one can do in the video game (despite the game supposedly working under a class-based paradigm), you've outright broken it. You can't design a mode which would work if you have a handful of classes which effectively function as if the players have cheat engine running.

Nerfing or buffing doesn't solve anything here. The only real solution would be to drastically cull, compact and re-work until you end up with unique roles rather than 9 of the same class which are just arbitrarily more or less invulnerable than each other while they are attacking. However, since anet dug their own grave with ncsoft, you can expect this game to never get the open-heart surgery that it would need to ever be remotely good.

The bolded is really where I'd like to see the conversation in this thread go. I'm not sure if Arenanet quite realizes how bad this has gotten competitively. We have lost the dynamic flavor of most classes at this point. The only classes left that feel distinct or "feel like the classes they are supposed to be" whether you play them or play against them, are Thieves/Mesmers/Revs, and that's because their class mechanics function so uniquely, that the flavor is hanging on. All of the other classes are exactly what you said: "invulnerable, regenerating, stability tanks which are also DPS classes." They all do the exact same thing now, same job roles, just while using different animations to do it.

I don't think players looking at the game from a pve standpoint realize how bad this complete class transparency has gotten, because they're just focused on the raid boss right. They worry about dps level and how much party sustain is present. But competitive mode players are most certainly feeling the "loss of class flavor" whether they are playing as or playing against a class.

To much power creep. Anet needs to gut out this "Everything can do everything, spit every conition and every boon" philosophy. Certain specializations should be good at certain things, and bad at others things, if they want to maintain class flavor.

@Cyninja.2954 I played for like 4 hours last night, and I honestly was not seeing as many Scrappers in my games as people are claiming they are seeing. I seeing on average 1 on my team, 1 on the other team. I think there was maybe 1 game I played last night in unranked that had 4 Scrappers in the game, and I must have ran 15+ games last night. Honestly I'm seeing more Spellbreakers now. The over representation of Spellbreaker is becoming a worse problem than Scrapper. I was often seeing 3 to 4 of them in a game, and I assume this is because with the disappearance of DEs/Condi Mirage/Core Guard and the Boonbeast nerf, these full DPS Spellbreakers are having a strong meta now. They can bully the absolute shit out of just about everything in play as of last night.

If we want to worry about over represented classes, we can start worrying about Spellbreaker right now.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic, but gladly I found the haters.Scrapper is fine, mirage needs more nerfs - nice one.

[zoopop.5630]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s.

With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

Spellbreaker

• Damage Potential: A "or a sudden S+ for the duration of rampage"
• 1v1 Sustain: A
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"
• Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

Boonbeast or Druid

• Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"
• 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"
• 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"
• Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both
• Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

Chronobunker

• Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"
• 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations
• 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"
• Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"
• Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

Weaver

"I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

• Damage Potential: A-
• 1v1 Sustain: A+
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ at best
• Team Fight Potential: B+
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

Scrapper

• Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"
• 1v1 Sustain: S+
• 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"
• Mobility: B at best
• Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again.

It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.

Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

@"Phantaram.4816" said:

most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

His thread was titled "SIDE NODING ISN'T FUN" and he's right, it isn't right now. But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper. Because even if they deleted Scrapper tomorrow, there will still be Tanky Rangers/Weavers/Chronobunkers/Spellbreakers. The problem is within design & balance theory intra-class wide. It is not within Scrapper as an individual class. Stop bullying Scrappers.

You can throw all the estimated stats for each build around. At the end of the day if you're

. Simple as that.

Even then, yes absolute tons of aspects of Scrapper in it's current for are overtuned and other aspects are extremely unfair to fight against. Stealth Gyro in it's current tuning is 1,000%

completely indefensible

.

1. All Gyros need longer activation wind ups with the possibility for fast reacting players to interrupt them especially the Medic Gyro and the Stealth Gyro
   .
2. All gyros need cooldowns increased, some of them extremely dramatically given their current power level. Medic Gyro with it's current tuning should be bumped up to 25s, Purge Gyro should be bumped up to 35-40 seconds to be comparable with other similar skills like Well of Power. Bulwark Gyro with it's current tuning seriously deserves a 75s cooldown and
   Sneak Gyro at it's current Tuning deserves a 240 second cooldown that's how out of line it is with other group stealth skills like Mass Invisibility (Mass Invisibility is 2 Second activation, 5 seconds of group stealth, 90 second cooldown) now that it doesn't have a tell
   . In it's current for it is a better, less skilled, more spammable way to "portal lock" people like with pre-nerf mesmer Portal while also having amazing ability to both peel for and revive allies in team fights.
3. All gyros need bigger and more obvious animation tells as the sprites are too small to see in the heat of combat as well as active effects on the players status bars similar to Soulbeast and Warrior stances, or the Troll Unguent and False Oasis healing skills so we can clearly understand what effects are active and respond in kind.
4. Bulwark should not pulse out barrier to the degree it does while the scrapper is alone 1vXing.
5. Sneak Gyro's field needs to be visible and it's stealth duration needs to be brought in line with other similar skills like Mass Invisibility. If the field is visible it justifies a higher duration of stealth but with no field it is completely and unjustifiably out of line.
6. Hammer 2-4 should have their damage nerfed and rolled into the auto attack chain. Right now in a PvP match hammers 2 and 3 are going to be DPS increases (4 isn't a boost but isn't that much of a loss) as well as providing excellent defense leading to hammer's weapon kit being skilllessly spammed on cooldown rather than reacting appropriately to or correctly predicting incoming threats. Scrapper is far too easy of a spec for how survivable it is and how much sustain it has due to the spammyness of hammer and it's gyros.
7. Adaptive Armor shouldn't reduce incoming condition damage. Traits like this and Second Skin defeat the purpose of condition damage as a unique damage archetype that bypasses defenses but can be negated through cleanse.
8. For years both Alchemy on it's own and especially Alchemy+Inventions combo have been over powered, providing too much effortless sustain and defense against both physical and condition attacks allowing Holosmith, a spec designed to be such a high risk high reward glass cannon it's in danger of blowing itself up, be far far too self sufficient and with far too much ability to resustain for having top tier damage on top of it as well as allowing Prot Holo to side node too effectively given the mission statement of the Holosmith as a specialization. Combined with Scrapper it makes a build that competently played literally cannot die 1v1, and will only die 1v2 to extremely high power pressure and CC. Alchemy+Inventions combo is at least 50% of the reason Scrapper is so over the top. Holosmith's sustain and self sufficiency should be akin to Glint+Shiro and scourge where it really needs the support to shine and Scrapper's defensive capabilities should be about where Prot-Holo currently is, maybe a bit higher with a bit more kill potential on the Hammer Auto attack chain but without the free top tier damage of Photon Forge. It's time to seriously nerf Alchemy and Inventions.

Also the idea that scrapper was completely dead is factually untrue when friends of mine like Cuilan have been chilling in the top 30 playing exclusively Scrapper all season long before the Gyro rework. Scrappers seeing low usage was

never

about

Scrapper's

performance in and of itself. Scrapper's problem was that between Holosmith's free top tier damage from Photon Forge, Heal Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game, as well as Alchemy and the Alchemy+Inventions combo giving Holosmith gave Holosmith all the resustain and self sufficiency it ever needed while still having top tier damage. SS Tier Damage+A Tier Resustain is going to be more attractive than C Tier Damage and SS Tier resustain, and by a huge amount because a majority of people in every game gravitate more towards damage over tanking unless it's completely insane like post rework Scrapper.

Holosmith has always been too efficient in too many areas of ranked and Alchemy and Alchemy+Inventions (And Healing Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game) combo are the reason why. It's great on the side nodes because it's ability to resustain so heavily makes it completely self sufficient. It's great in the team fights because of it's AoE CC and high pressure. It's also good in team fights regardless if your team has support unlike Scourge because of this self sufficiency. It's great rotating into fights and +1ing. Prot Holo is as defensively orientated as we should want Scrapper to be just through Inventions+Alchemy Combo while still having immense pressure in Photon Forge. It's too good in too many areas at once and it should be forced to be more specialized in damage similar to Shiro+Glint Rev and Scourge where it needs that support to really shine. If that was the desireability of Scrapper for both team support as well as side noding would have skyrocketed.

yikes on the amount of nerfs you are looking to see lmfaooooooo. Just make them unplayable again by all means lmfao nerf on hammer 2-4 :astonished:

[Vagrant.7206]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic, but gladly I found the haters.Scrapper is fine, mirage needs more nerfs - nice one.

Oh, they knew you were being sarcastic. :smile:

Mesmer is still quite strong despite all the complaints. I don't have as many issues right now, but I think that's just because I'm seeing fewer of them, as the FOTM has shifted to scrapper and spellbreaker, at least temporarily.

[mortrialus.3062]

@zoopop.5630 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s.

With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

Spellbreaker

• Damage Potential: A "or a sudden S+ for the duration of rampage"
• 1v1 Sustain: A
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"
• Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

Boonbeast or Druid

• Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"
• 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"
• 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"
• Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both
• Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

Chronobunker

• Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"
• 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations
• 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"
• Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"
• Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

Weaver

"I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

• Damage Potential: A-
• 1v1 Sustain: A+
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ at best
• Team Fight Potential: B+
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

Scrapper

• Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"
• 1v1 Sustain: S+
• 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"
• Mobility: B at best
• Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again.

It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.

Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

@"Phantaram.4816" said:

most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

His thread was titled "SIDE NODING ISN'T FUN" and he's right, it isn't right now. But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper. Because even if they deleted Scrapper tomorrow, there will still be Tanky Rangers/Weavers/Chronobunkers/Spellbreakers. The problem is within design & balance theory intra-class wide. It is not within Scrapper as an individual class. Stop bullying Scrappers.

You can throw all the estimated stats for each build around. At the end of the day if you're

. Simple as that.

Even then, yes absolute tons of aspects of Scrapper in it's current for are overtuned and other aspects are extremely unfair to fight against. Stealth Gyro in it's current tuning is 1,000%

completely indefensible

.

1. All Gyros need longer activation wind ups with the possibility for fast reacting players to interrupt them especially the Medic Gyro and the Stealth Gyro
   .
2. All gyros need cooldowns increased, some of them extremely dramatically given their current power level. Medic Gyro with it's current tuning should be bumped up to 25s, Purge Gyro should be bumped up to 35-40 seconds to be comparable with other similar skills like Well of Power. Bulwark Gyro with it's current tuning seriously deserves a 75s cooldown and
   Sneak Gyro at it's current Tuning deserves a 240 second cooldown that's how out of line it is with other group stealth skills like Mass Invisibility (Mass Invisibility is 2 Second activation, 5 seconds of group stealth, 90 second cooldown) now that it doesn't have a tell
   . In it's current for it is a better, less skilled, more spammable way to "portal lock" people like with pre-nerf mesmer Portal while also having amazing ability to both peel for and revive allies in team fights.
3. All gyros need bigger and more obvious animation tells as the sprites are too small to see in the heat of combat as well as active effects on the players status bars similar to Soulbeast and Warrior stances, or the Troll Unguent and False Oasis healing skills so we can clearly understand what effects are active and respond in kind.
4. Bulwark should not pulse out barrier to the degree it does while the scrapper is alone 1vXing.
5. Sneak Gyro's field needs to be visible and it's stealth duration needs to be brought in line with other similar skills like Mass Invisibility. If the field is visible it justifies a higher duration of stealth but with no field it is completely and unjustifiably out of line.
6. Hammer 2-4 should have their damage nerfed and rolled into the auto attack chain. Right now in a PvP match hammers 2 and 3 are going to be DPS increases (4 isn't a boost but isn't that much of a loss) as well as providing excellent defense leading to hammer's weapon kit being skilllessly spammed on cooldown rather than reacting appropriately to or correctly predicting incoming threats. Scrapper is far too easy of a spec for how survivable it is and how much sustain it has due to the spammyness of hammer and it's gyros.
7. Adaptive Armor shouldn't reduce incoming condition damage. Traits like this and Second Skin defeat the purpose of condition damage as a unique damage archetype that bypasses defenses but can be negated through cleanse.
8. For years both Alchemy on it's own and especially Alchemy+Inventions combo have been over powered, providing too much effortless sustain and defense against both physical and condition attacks allowing Holosmith, a spec designed to be such a high risk high reward glass cannon it's in danger of blowing itself up, be far far too self sufficient and with far too much ability to resustain for having top tier damage on top of it as well as allowing Prot Holo to side node too effectively given the mission statement of the Holosmith as a specialization. Combined with Scrapper it makes a build that competently played literally cannot die 1v1, and will only die 1v2 to extremely high power pressure and CC. Alchemy+Inventions combo is at least 50% of the reason Scrapper is so over the top. Holosmith's sustain and self sufficiency should be akin to Glint+Shiro and scourge where it really needs the support to shine and Scrapper's defensive capabilities should be about where Prot-Holo currently is, maybe a bit higher with a bit more kill potential on the Hammer Auto attack chain but without the free top tier damage of Photon Forge. It's time to seriously nerf Alchemy and Inventions.

Also the idea that scrapper was completely dead is factually untrue when friends of mine like Cuilan have been chilling in the top 30 playing exclusively Scrapper all season long before the Gyro rework. Scrappers seeing low usage was

never

about

Scrapper's

performance in and of itself. Scrapper's problem was that between Holosmith's free top tier damage from Photon Forge, Heal Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game, as well as Alchemy and the Alchemy+Inventions combo giving Holosmith gave Holosmith all the resustain and self sufficiency it ever needed while still having top tier damage. SS Tier Damage+A Tier Resustain is going to be more attractive than C Tier Damage and SS Tier resustain, and by a huge amount because a majority of people in every game gravitate more towards damage over tanking unless it's completely insane like post rework Scrapper.

Holosmith has always been too efficient in too many areas of ranked and Alchemy and Alchemy+Inventions (And Healing Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game) combo are the reason why. It's great on the side nodes because it's ability to resustain so heavily makes it completely self sufficient. It's great in the team fights because of it's AoE CC and high pressure. It's also good in team fights regardless if your team has support unlike Scourge because of this self sufficiency. It's great rotating into fights and +1ing. Prot Holo is as defensively orientated as we should want Scrapper to be just through Inventions+Alchemy Combo while still having immense pressure in Photon Forge. It's too good in too many areas at once and it should be forced to be more specialized in damage similar to Shiro+Glint Rev and Scourge where it needs that support to really shine. If that was the desireability of Scrapper for both team support as well as side noding would have skyrocketed.

yikes on the amount of nerfs you are looking to see lmfaooooooo. Just make them unplayable again by all means lmfao nerf on hammer 2-4 :astonished:

Scrapper was never unplayable. The main thing that held it back was Holosmith having complete self sufficiency due to Heal Turret being the most overloaded heal in the game since Core GW2, Elixirs Traitline and the Elixir+Invention combo making them far too sustainy than a glass cannon spec ever should have been. If Holosmith was in a place similar to Glint+Shiro revs as a truly high risk high reward spec that really benefits from having a dedicated support to get the most out of it Scrappers would have been considerably more prevalent.

I like how you ignore me saying I'd want to see the damage rolled into hammer 1 so that the defensive weapon skills 2-4 reward fast reaction and correct predictions rather than just facerolling through the entire kit. Like I'm just throwing that out randomly and not explaining my reasoning.

[Murmaider.1805]

What I will say about the scrapper changes is that I'm finding more and more games will finish before 500 points is reached. And I actually kind of enjoy it. I main Deadeye and I usually don't have a problem vs them if I'm running S/D or S/P, but that's me.

At the same time, fighting a team with 2 or more scrappers makes winning near impossible. When you can't clear a node because there's 2 enemy scrappers posted up indefinitely on 2 different nodes, it's hard to cap.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Also lol at weaver damage potential being A- while scrapper being C at best, such bias.

It's true though. Couple examples of what I mean:

1. I get on node vs. Grimjack on weaver, and that kitten deals damage to me. I get on node vs. Matthias testing a full dps burst build utilizing sneak gyro for ganks, and he can barely land the burst or any follow up dps due to how ridiculously telegraphed everything is on scrapper. Resulting in a situation where a weaver running sage's or something, is dealing significantly more damage than a scrapper running berserker.
2. My full dps berserker soulbeast is becoming something I can log into and play in even ranked matches much more often again, when circumstances are right to play it. The reason is because scrapper damage methods are so easy to avoid and deal so little damage, that the full dps berserker soulbeast can get real aggressive with the scrapper and not worry about dying, while it counters the scrapper hard with 20k mauls and worldy impacts "these it cannot reflect". This is mainly for two reasons: (a) Scrapper damage is easy to avoid close range and it is low damage (b) Even when low on health and running, the scrapper can't seal the deal on a kill when you kite to reset. If you were to try and get ON-NODE with a berserker LB soulbeast vs. any of the other side noders, Weaver/Other Rangers/Spellbreakers/Chronobunkers you'd be dead in seconds, and if you tried to run while low, they can actually chase you and seal the deal on kills.

That grade for "Damage Potential" was to incorporate a mixture of raw damage potential and ability to actually land practical damage. This is why Weaver was graded as only slightly lower than Spellbreaker for Spellbreaker's normal damage routines outside of Rampage which is graded S+ for its duration, and why Scrapper is graded C, because it can't land its damage to kill anything unless its opponent is a potato.

(...)

The problem is more the relation between scrapper, weaver and spellbreaker and boonbeast. Noone (I hope) argues with weaver doing more damage than scrapper. But it deals significantly less damage than both spellbreaker and boonbeast.

If you get hit by Gale Storm, you usually just shrug it off and go on, maybe heal afterwards. If you get hit by Bull's Charge (which is much easier to land) and don't have a stunbreak at hand, you are often dead. Even as a weaver, that can happen.

But that is a little off-topic, I do agree scrapper probably will be okay and not even meta. Even though there are some builds that are extremely strong and easy to play, the lack of damage might make it okay or FBish. We'll see, tweaks might be needed for some things (like the stealth gyro), but nothing too serious.

(Speaking from current experience and not knowing what some theorycrafters will come up with for scrapper. :tongue: )

[apharma.3741]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:Also lol at weaver damage potential being A- while scrapper being C at best, such bias.

It's true though. Couple examples of what I mean:

1. I get on node vs. Grimjack on weaver, and that kitten deals damage to me. I get on node vs. Matthias testing a full dps burst build utilizing sneak gyro for ganks, and he can barely land the burst or any follow up dps due to how ridiculously telegraphed everything is on scrapper. Resulting in a situation where a weaver running sage's or something, is dealing significantly more damage than a scrapper running berserker.
2. My full dps berserker soulbeast is becoming something I can log into and play in even ranked matches much more often again, when circumstances are right to play it. The reason is because scrapper damage methods are so easy to avoid and deal so little damage, that the full dps berserker soulbeast can get real aggressive with the scrapper and not worry about dying, while it counters the scrapper hard with 20k mauls and worldy impacts "these it cannot reflect". This is mainly for two reasons: (a) Scrapper damage is easy to avoid close range and it is low damage (b) Even when low on health and running, the scrapper can't seal the deal on a kill when you kite to reset. If you were to try and get ON-NODE with a berserker LB soulbeast vs. any of the other side noders, Weaver/Other Rangers/Spellbreakers/Chronobunkers you'd be dead in seconds, and if you tried to run while low, they can actually chase you and seal the deal on kills.

That grade for "Damage Potential" was to incorporate a mixture of raw damage potential and ability to actually land practical damage. This is why Weaver was graded as only slightly lower than Spellbreaker for Spellbreaker's normal damage routines outside of Rampage which is graded S+ for its duration, and why Scrapper is graded C, because it can't land its damage to kill anything unless its opponent is a potato.

The problem with your analysis is that it's extremely biased. Look at sword weaver attacks, seriously look at them, anything remotely dangerous has a 3/4s cast or is very easily avoided. The only 2 skills that are dangerous below a 3/4s cast is Shearing Edge and Pyro Vortex with the latter requiring you to stand in the vortex afterwards to get anything decent for damage.

The coefficients on scrapper hammer alone blow most weaver weapons out of the water, they're channelled but you can can usually get the same damage out as the weaver would get. When you factor in RNG rampage and it's multiple high coefficient skills which also CC you will realise that saying scrapper in damage is this far above weaver is just plain bias.

The menders bunker weaver is on par with scrapper for damage, perhaps more with dagger offhand but it then gets less defence and dies easier to a +1 while having less set up via gale.

Sources:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scrapperhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weaverhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage

Edit: It's worth pointing out weaver is almost entirely melee so saying it's ability to land hits is below scrapper makes me question if you've put serious hours onto sword weaver to understand it is so easily kited.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Not even Mirage saw this amount of representation before the last nerf...that's just cuz engi is way more fun to play!

[DaShi.1368]

So many engy mains out to defend their OP class.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

Just an observation.

Today, i tested scrapper on 6 differents accounts (Na, EU), some low tier, some higher (the higher one plat2) 20 games.

I can say that scrapper is shining in low tier, every and i say EVERY game, i have at least the 4 better stats (also better damage XD i play a non meta build)

https://imgur.com/a/vPST9Ms

But in higher tier, i just ....disapear, in higher tier ppl know how to focus and who focus 1st, every time i've been the last one been focused and my mates dies too fast to rez them.... i come-back to my protection holo :)

Take your conclusions.

[BreakneckJack.7684]

@DaShi.1368 said:So many engy mains out to defend their OP class.

Do you have any idea how long we scrapper mains have been lurking in the dark. Clawing up at the slippery meta pillar, in a desperate attempt to get any grip. forever fighting under the shadow of an array of other specs? You don't have a clue, do you?

We deserve this.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper-

True enough. It isn't the scrapper's fault. It's just the most recent on the stack, we still have boonbeasts and to a lesser extent spellbreakers to deal with in terms of survivibility.

Bunker meta approacheth

[Mathias.9657]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic

You don't say???? lmao

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Mathias.9657 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic

You don't say???? lmao

Seeing as both you and Trevor have an history of complaining about mes, I dunno.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Mathias.9657 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic

You don't say???? lmao

Seeing as both you and Trevor have an history of complaining about mes, I dunno.

And who doesn't have a history of complaining about Mirage?

Mesmer main spotted.

[Solori.6025]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Mathias.9657 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic

You don't say???? lmao

Seeing as both you and Trevor have an history of complaining about mes, I dunno.

Mesmer main spotted.

Can we start using "Scrapper main" for everyone that defends scrapper so every wall of text they write is automatically invalidated like it was for mes?

[Shao.7236]

Defending this mess? How can you do that? This patch is overkill, it always take at least 2 people to kill 1 scrapper because they are such damage sponges you might as well give up the point while there is constantly Acid Bomb and Thunderclap to pressure anything that goes by it. They don't even have to kite or LoS anymore, they have no weakness or exploits, it's impossible to win a duel against them without wasting 10 minutes into the game even if you were to constantly outplay their decisions.

There's too much cheese, it's awful.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Mathias.9657 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:@Mathias.9657 @Trevor Boyer.6524I was being sarcastic

You don't say???? lmao

Seeing as both you and Trevor have an history of complaining about mes, I dunno.

Mesmer main spotted.

Can we start using "Scrapper main" for everyone that defends scrapper so every wall of text they write is automatically invalidated like it was for mes?

Another Mesmer main, spotted.

[Twigifire.8379]

Scrapper is too good and too easy at the moment. The problem I see is bulwark gyro. There's a few things busted about it:

--> It's instant cast: This is probably the biggest problem. Add any sort of cast time and that'll fix a lot of reasons why it seems unstoppable to kill even without much stability and only a few stunbreaks. You can literally survive any burst every 25 seconds without needing to dodge or block.--> It gives too much barrier: The initial barrier is probably ok if a cast time is added, but pulsing over 1000 is too much. Cut it back to 500ish

The other debatable issue is sneak gyro as it's cooldown is simply way too low and it's even better than it used to be. Make it at least 120 second CD just so we can't see impossible to stop resses for every fight.

I think if simple changes like these are made then scrapper survivability will be heaps more in line with that of FB. Scrapper was not in the best of spots before the gyro change when literally the exact same spec with the exact same utilities was being used. I'm confused why people are suddenly targeting AA and other unaltered scrapper traits when it's always been there as it is without causing any issues.

[Swagg.9236]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:You can't refresh anything if you have rogue elements running around as invulnerable, regenerating, stability tanks which are also DPS classes. If you have multiple classes which do everything that one can do in the video game (despite the game supposedly working under a class-based paradigm), you've outright broken it. You can't design a mode which would work if you have a handful of classes which effectively function as if the players have cheat engine running.

Nerfing or buffing doesn't solve anything here.

The only real solution would be to drastically cull, compact and re-work until you end up with unique roles rather than 9 of the same class which are just arbitrarily more or less invulnerable than each other while they are attacking.

However, since anet dug their own grave with ncsoft, you can expect this game to never get the open-heart surgery that it would need to ever be remotely good.

The bolded is really where I'd like to see the conversation in this thread go. I'm not sure if Arenanet quite realizes how bad this has gotten competitively. We have lost the dynamic flavor of most classes at this point. The only classes left that feel distinct or "feel like the classes they are supposed to be" whether you play them or play against them, are Thieves/Mesmers/Revs, and that's because their class mechanics function so uniquely, that the flavor is hanging on. All of the other classes are exactly what you said: "invulnerable, regenerating, stability tanks which are also DPS classes." They all do the exact same thing now, same job roles, just while using different animations to do it.

I don't think players looking at the game from a pve standpoint realize how bad this complete class transparency has gotten, because they're just focused on the raid boss right. They worry about dps level and how much party sustain is present. But competitive mode players are most certainly feeling the "loss of class flavor" whether they are playing as or playing against a class.

To much power creep. Anet needs to gut out this "Everything can do everything, spit every conition and every boon" philosophy. Certain specializations should be good at certain things, and bad at others things, if they want to maintain class flavor.

• Less weapon bar slots would be a good start. I'd personally recommend 1 auto-attack and 2 weapon-based skill (with autos now homogenized across all weapon types--that is to say that every sword would have the same autoattack, same for rifle, staff, etc). Make weapons about straight damage and maybe some movement rather than conditions or hard CC (move the latter into utility slots). With less total skill slots, it would be easy to open up the fixed weapon skills to multiple ammo charges and lower overall cooldowns (this would give each weapon a distinct feeling rather than just 5, long-CD buttons that people often mindlessly throw at any given called target).
• Remove all "Riposte" style and protracted block duration skills from the weapon bar.
• Delete worthless weapons which never see use, salvage the good from the un-used or entirely never-used and compress them into the "acceptable" weapon options while also weeding out extra bloat damage skills. Whatever movement-based, control or movement-based skills which don't fit onto re-worked weapon bars still exist, just move them into the utility pool.
• Expand the utility bar from 3 to 5-6 slots and re-work/re-balance elites so that they can fit into the "utility skill" subtype; remove the "elite" skill slot (or rather just fold it into the utility bar).
• Homogenize healing skills across all classes until everyone basically just gets Dark Souls estus with a little option variance for more team-centric, movement-centric and straight, no-frills self-healing (each with appropriate drawbacks depending on their circumstantial benefits).

I remember making a condition overhaul at one point. It's probably sprinkled with inconsistencies due to changes over time (and some parts of it might just be outright busted a bit), but the top chunk sort of gets across a more streamlined and role-based condition system that isn't just the uninspired "not-really-just-another-untyped-damage-I-promise" sort of paradigm which has basically defined GW2 conditions since launch: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/24578/a-condition-overhaul-all-modes.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Twigifire.8379 As you can see from my OP statement, in no way do I think Scrapper in general is OP. But I do have to agree that Sneak Gyro in particular is kind of crazy right now for many reasons. There is way too much utility in that skill for it's low CD. It isn't even just the stealthing, it's also the pulsing smoke fields with blinding finishers. If done correctly, a team in a team fight with their Scrapper present, is too powerful in a couple situations:

1. One of the Scrapper's team mates goes down in a 4v4. The Scrapper lays Sneak Gyro on top of his downed team mate not only to stealth him, but to also create the blinding smoke fields. So anyone who spins to win in that smoke field spams blinding bolts all over the place, so the opponents cannot cleave the downed team mate, and they can't stop either due the guy on the ground being stealthed. Upon this, we also have Function Gyro going to work. It's too much res power.
2. An enemy gets downed in a 4v4. Normally when a team goes in to stomp or cleave, the opposing team will cleave trap them, making the stomp or cleave risky. But with Sneak Gyro, you can just stealth every one of your team mates for enhanced stomping, with Function Gyro, or simply spin to win in smoke fields, to blind the hell out of the opponent's cleave trap. Again, its' too much power & utility in one skill that has such a low CD.

Sneak Gyro needs to be on at least a 90s CD for what it currently offers.