Anet let us have the ability to equip tree specific weapons at any time once the tree is unlocked!

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:It's not the players' fault that Anet can't find a way to properly balance their own game. It's not players' fault that enjoyability must be sacrificed for the sake of an idealized "balanced state" that has never come to fruition.It's not "anyone's" fault. The game is far better balanced than it would be if some of the ideas that players love were to be implemented. Balancing is theoretically complicated and it's made more so because it is impossible to predict all the different synergies that might exist and that will get discovered by players working non-stop to take advantage.

That GW1 and GW2 suffer the same same problems with two drastically distinct skill systems is proof that the systems are not to blame.Indeed. And yet some people keep advocating to make it more complicated by asking for things that offer more benefits while reducing the sacrifice of trade-offs.

This topic keeps coming up because players love the idea, and it will keep coming up as long as players keep loving the idea. It's that simple.And players loving an idea doesn't mean that its implementation will be good for the game. That is also a simple concept.

[Skyroar.2974]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:And players loving an idea doesn't mean that its implementation will be good for the game. That is also a simple concept.And developers opting for simpler and bland mechanics to keep it balanced doesn't means that the implementation of said mechanics will be good for the game either. We're all dealing with simple concepts here, it seems. It's a risky concept on a surface level that can potentially pay off - but it never did.

I'm not saying that ideas loved by players are automatically good ideas, btw. But they reveal something about the community: that they feel the current systems are not good enough as they are.

[Klowdy.3126]

@Zephire.8049 said:Nope. It would make balancing an issue and one of the reasons why skills were locked to weapons in the first place was to cut down on balance issues. Weapons are also one of the selling points of elite specs and synergizes with their new function skills and trait line, as well as having different lore reasons explaining why not all in a broad profession can use certain weapons.

To use your example of firebrand, firebrands study the past and are magic users who fight close combat and also use their skills and knowledge to protect allies. Dragonhunters, on the other hand, came about as a profession due to the dragon menace and they're essentially a magical huntsman who uses bows. It makes no sense for someone used to books to know how to use a longbow, nor for a hunter to know how to conjure magic from books.

The Commander is skilled at many things but being a prodigy that can learn all is not one of them.

But again, leaving all lore reasons aside, it would be an utter nightmare to balance and certain weapons would have to get modified skills because they add/use resources that only the elite spec has access to. Either they have to be changed/buff to work without, say, malice, or nothing is changed so they're not worth using outside of roleplaying (and then you can just switch your third trait as needed).

Guild Wars 1 had 1319 skills that could all interact with each other and it was an utter nightmare to balance. What you're asking for isn't so large, but it's still 80 skills that were only supposed to interact with 2 non-elite traits at a time.

I agree mostly (gave a helpful on this one), but it doesn't really make sense that your character forgets how to use things. My guardian learned both books/axe and LB. How does he forget how to use thses things based on using something else? It makes sense in lore, until you think about the same person learning multiple things in their lifetime. Again, I'm not for the change suggested by the OP, but your reasoning is a little off.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:I'm not saying that ideas loved by players are automatically good ideas, btw. But they reveal something about the community: that they feel the current systems are not good enough as they are.That might be reason to act upon if it was a universal feeling across the whole community. This thread alone shows that there are players that prefer the system as it is, with restrictions on combinations and opportunity costs to using this weapon or that (or this espec or that). Just because some people repeatedly ask for a change doesn't mean everyone wants that change.

[Skyroar.2974]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:I'm not saying that ideas loved by players are automatically good ideas, btw. But they reveal something about the community: that they feel the current systems are not good enough as they are.That might be reason to act upon if it was a universal feeling across the whole community. This thread alone shows that there are players that prefer the system as it is, with restrictions on combinations and opportunity costs to using this weapon or that (or this espec or that). Just because some people repeatedly ask for a change doesn't mean everyone wants that change.

I'm all for restrictions and opportunity costs as well, but those can still be preserved as long as weapon-specific traits are still locked behind elite specs. This way, Anet can funnel some of their power into elite spec traits. For example: Dragonhunter has a minor trait that boosts their damage at range, and another one that specifically improves Longbow. So if you had the option to pick Longbow outside of DH spec, you could potentially find new, strong combos, but you would also lose access to those traits. Yes, some weapons and some traits would need to receive a new balance pass before Anet could implement this change, and yes, this would add extra workload to the Skills & Balance Team. But would the effort be worth it? That's the question Anet would need to weight in. For us players who would love for GW2 to offer more combination diversity than it currently does, it would be worth it in theory (and I know well that what seems great in theory doesn't always works well in practice).

"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

this would have been a cool idea if they designed the game to suit this, but there are too many problems that would arise if implemented now.

[Rasimir.6239]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.It's not just the weapon itself being overpowered, but the combination of weapon and elite spec. For example take the chronomancer shield that offers a couple of extra blocks as well as some decent buffs, and combine that with the mirage's evade ability. By themselves both the shield skills and the mirage evade are good, but in combination they are exponentially more powerful. You'd need to nerf them badly to make the combination manageable, which would leave them a lot less useful stand-alone.

[DaFishBob.6518]

^That is making me think of core traits getting nerfed because of how they interact with elite spec traits and mechanics.

[Arzurag.7506]

I dunno. I figure, tree-specific weapons would be kinda heavy and only of wood-quality.

[Leo G.4501]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:I'm not saying that ideas loved by players are automatically good ideas, btw. But they reveal something about the community: that they feel the current systems are not good enough as they are.That might be reason to act upon if it was a universal feeling across the whole community. This thread alone shows that there are players that prefer the system as it is, with restrictions on combinations and opportunity costs to using this weapon or that (or this espec or that). Just because some people repeatedly ask for a change doesn't mean everyone wants that change.

Many players preferred the trait system before traitline locking was implemented.

Many players preferred their Phantasm Mesmers.

Practically all players don't care about Spirit Weapons then and now but some players preferred them as static "pets".

But for some reason, people will bend over backwards to defend changes made that alienate some while in the same breath shooting down suggestions that don't. It's bizarre to witness. I don't particularly like the OP's suggestion but balance seems like it'd be the least of the issues. I mean, a Warrior using daggers without Sun and Moon Style would, at best, be underwhelming.

I'd advocate for NOT doing the OP's idea because system limitations are what makes creating a build interesting. If you can just put every skill on everything in any combination, people will gravitate to only the good skills/traits...kind of like how weapons themselves are sets of skills. Limits have to start somewhere.

[Leo G.4501]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.It's not just the weapon itself being overpowered, but the combination of weapon and elite spec. For example take the chronomancer shield that offers a couple of extra blocks as well as some decent buffs, and combine that with the mirage's evade ability. By themselves both the shield skills and the mirage evade are good, but in combination they are exponentially more powerful. You'd need to nerf them badly to make the combination manageable, which would leave them a lot less useful stand-alone.

Mirage has blocks...

[mortrialus.3062]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.It's not just the weapon itself being overpowered, but the combination of weapon and elite spec. For example take the chronomancer shield that offers a couple of extra blocks as well as some decent buffs, and combine that with the mirage's evade ability. By themselves both the shield skills and the mirage evade are good, but in combination they are exponentially more powerful. You'd need to nerf them badly to make the combination manageable, which would leave them a lot less useful stand-alone.

Mirage has blocks...

Scepter and Sword Offhand blocks only block one attack before they are consumed. They aren't channeled stances the way the Echo of Memory is.

[Leo G.4501]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.It's not just the weapon itself being overpowered, but the combination of weapon and elite spec. For example take the chronomancer shield that offers a couple of extra blocks as well as some decent buffs, and combine that with the mirage's evade ability. By themselves both the shield skills and the mirage evade are good, but in combination they are exponentially more powerful. You'd need to nerf them badly to make the combination manageable, which would leave them a lot less useful stand-alone.

Mirage has blocks...

Scepter and Sword Offhand blocks only block one attack before they are consumed. They aren't channeled stances the way the Echo of Memory is.

That's merely a different method of blocking. You cannot act while channeling Echo of Memory. Are we stating, for certainty, that Mirage Cloak + a 1.5sec block channel is overpowered?

[Westenev.5289]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:"But some weapons are so overpowered!" doesn't seems that good of an argument against it, because if they are overpowered, then that is a problem that needs to be fixed, with or without this change.It's not just the weapon itself being overpowered, but the combination of weapon and elite spec. For example take the chronomancer shield that offers a couple of extra blocks as well as some decent buffs, and combine that with the mirage's evade ability. By themselves both the shield skills and the mirage evade are good, but in combination they are exponentially more powerful. You'd need to nerf them badly to make the combination manageable, which would leave them a lot less useful stand-alone.

Mirage has blocks...

Which is why people think e-spec weapons can't work with another spec. Adding a chrono shield to a mirage does nothing to hinder its already considerable distortion or evade uptime (quite the opposite, giving them 2x phantasm blocks on a 30sec(?) Cooldown + stun utility). This direct upgrade to mirage would probably lead to shield nerfs, base mesmer nerfs, or both, so people can actually hit a mesmer.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if they could somehow bring all the op stuff down to sane levels I could get behind this.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Scepter and Sword Offhand blocks only block one attack before they are consumed. They aren't channeled stances the way the Echo of Memory is.

they have 1/2 sec evades after the block.

[Teratus.2859]

Fun fact but if you only unlock the Scourge trait Minor Proficiency and leave the rest of the traits locked you can equip the Scourge traitline and equip a torch on your Necromancer but retain your core Necro Death Shroud.

I once toyed with a build based around that as I really don't like the Shades and giving up the shroud to be a to big a tradeoff.It's a fun idea but giving up a whole traitline is a lot for a gimmick build.

So I get where you're coming from OP.. I do like the idea myself as it would expand the limited number of weapons available to some classes while opening up some new combos such as Axe/Shield for Mesmer and Sword/Warhorn for ElementalistBut people are right when they say it would cause more balancing issues.. although in all honesty I'd rather deal with more balancing issues if it means more build diversity.I'd even be fine with this being exclusively a PvE thing.

[ROMANG.1903]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:Maybe they could, but if you don’t have the tree equipped then you shouldn’t get any of the perks. That would mean it’s basic and underpowered.

I'd actually say, what if you could equip a second elite spec, but it would only give you access to the weapon (and perhaps utility skills?) and wouldn't change anything else? That way you have to sacrifice an entire traitline just to benefit from that weapon

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:Maybe they could, but if you don’t have the tree equipped then you shouldn’t get any of the perks. That would mean it’s basic and underpowered.

I'd actually say, what if you could equip a second elite spec, but it would only give you access to the weapon (and perhaps utility skills?) and wouldn't change anything else? That way you have to sacrifice an entire traitline just to benefit from that weapon

And I’d ask how many would bother to use this system if you have to sacrifice an entire traitline and lose all benefits from it (giving you two active traitlines where everyone else has 3) just to equip a weapon with no traits?

Edit: perhaps you’re asking for ANet to add a 4th place in which to put in a an elite spec which would have no effect other than to allow a weapon to be used? A place to put in an elite spec trait line where the traits are inactive? I suspect that would be very confusing to many people. I foresee many forum threads complaining about it and having to have it explained.

[Rasimir.6239]

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:Edit: perhaps you’re asking for ANet to add a 4th place in which to put in a an elite spec which would have no effect other than to allow a weapon to be used? A place to put in an elite spec trait line where the traits are inactive? I suspect that would be very confusing to many people. I foresee many forum threads complaining about it and having to have it explained.And it would get even more confusing if a 3rd elite spec with yet another weapon is added. What if I want to play an axe/shield + longbow mirage?