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What's holding you back of changing how downed state works ?


Caedmon.6798

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I am a defender of having downstate as I consider it a core gameplay function that makes GW2 combat unique and far more fluent than many other MMOs (which is the same type of thing literally every game with revives show, because thats how we got revives to begin with) however even I recognize that there are some easy changes possible that make me wonder why Anet doesnt tweak it, at least in part. Most notably:

1:1 ressingFully aligns with previous nerfs (1:1 rally) and maintains all of the tactical gameplay surrounding downstate regardless of roaming/zerging while at the same time reducing the effectivness of having a numerical advantage

Downed penalty timer an actual penaltyIts currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charmRemove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:I know it's all about blob play and everything being done is evolving around that concept but downed state is no issue there anyway

And that's the problem with these forums. We have people like the OP, a proclaimed roamer, talking about how downed state "is no issue" for zergs, but feels like they know enough to propose sweeping changes.

Downed state "is no issue" for zergs? The only person who says this is someone who has either never played in a zerg, or doesn't understand the mechanics of how zergs work - either way, hardly someone informed enough on the game to have credibility on changing game mechanics

Downed state_ does _hold issues for zergs:
:rolleyes:

Downed state is no issue in zergs since theres 50 more people able to cleave that downed guy instantly full dead. The same does not apply in roaming.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

That happens when you can't read. For the third time,i Do not ask for the removal of downed state and here you are.

Except that I disagree with the idea that roaming needs anything given.

I was addressing your constant bringing up your 34 up votes as argument while at the same time giving one of the main reasons as to why and how downed state is balanced and implemented. I'll try to be clearer in the future since you seem to have a hard time extrapolating relevant information.

I have to bring that up because clearly people have have reading issues. I even gave examples as how to change it yet people keep yelling "I want downed state to stay".

"That can be the ress speed,hp% in downed state,not being able to get up 4x in one minute etc. There are multiple ways to adress this"

Something i also need to keep repeating.

All of which I am fully aware of. Have you also addressed the vastly reduced ttk compared to vanilla?

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

What are people going to do that disagree ? I think thats pretty clear isnt it ?
  • So given ttk is a lot lower since vanilla.
  • Given that no downed state week clearly shows that there are severe issues with this game mode when downed state is temoprarily removed.
  • Given that there is builds and abilities directly added into the game by Arenanet to get people faster out of downed state.

You can't connect the dots?

Here let me help:Arenanet use downed state to balance and add a tactical element to the main design and gameplay component in WvW: huge group fights. They have added abilities and runes to specifically allow downed state management. They added a no downed state week to test how the game would work without downed state but have not expanded on that concept. I'm not sure how much clearer their design around downed state can be.

EDIT: don't gimme that bs. Overall ttk is way down from vanilla. If you disagree with that, fine, I don't care. But expect people to put up resistance who do agree that ttk in WvW is way down (same as spvp by the way).

It's comical how patronising you are, while unironically promoting downstate as a solution to the powercreep problem, people discuss since the April 2014 Feature Pack, instead of adressing the underlying problems. Insta revives as answer to 7k autoattacks is infact the way that led us here.

When did I promote the power creep? That's you reading in something which I did not state.

I do not agree with changing the downed state given the power creep though.

Those two things are not the same.

I think they actually are, since downed state in his current environment is part of the creep.

Insignificant compared to the power creep which happened on all levels of which directly affects ttk in WvW:
  • access to boons
  • pure damage output of classes (which basically trippled compared to vanilla)
  • movement skills and map traversal (swiftness is basically baseline now for all classes even before the mount was added)
  • access to stealth (more blasts, more smoke fields)
  • new attribute combinations

But we are getting off topic. If you want to discuss power creep, make a new topic. I'm sure a lot of people will join in.

I'm discussing it with you because you brought it up as your main argument to leave DS as it is. So following your logic, all those things only affecting ttk, you are actually saying DS is much weaker now than it was pre 2014?

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@schloumou.3982 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

That happens when you can't read. For the third time,i Do not ask for the removal of downed state and here you are.

Except that I disagree with the idea that roaming needs anything given.

I was addressing your constant bringing up your 34 up votes as argument while at the same time giving one of the main reasons as to why and how downed state is balanced and implemented. I'll try to be clearer in the future since you seem to have a hard time extrapolating relevant information.

I have to bring that up because clearly people have have reading issues. I even gave examples as how to change it yet people keep yelling "I want downed state to stay".

"That can be the ress speed,hp% in downed state,not being able to get up 4x in one minute etc. There are multiple ways to adress this"

Something i also need to keep repeating.

All of which I am fully aware of. Have you also addressed the vastly reduced ttk compared to vanilla?

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

What are people going to do that disagree ? I think thats pretty clear isnt it ?
  • So given ttk is a lot lower since vanilla.
  • Given that no downed state week clearly shows that there are severe issues with this game mode when downed state is temoprarily removed.
  • Given that there is builds and abilities directly added into the game by Arenanet to get people faster out of downed state.

You can't connect the dots?

Here let me help:Arenanet use downed state to balance and add a tactical element to the main design and gameplay component in WvW: huge group fights. They have added abilities and runes to specifically allow downed state management. They added a no downed state week to test how the game would work without downed state but have not expanded on that concept. I'm not sure how much clearer their design around downed state can be.

EDIT: don't gimme that bs. Overall ttk is way down from vanilla. If you disagree with that, fine, I don't care. But expect people to put up resistance who do agree that ttk in WvW is way down (same as spvp by the way).

It's comical how patronising you are, while unironically promoting downstate as a solution to the powercreep problem, people discuss since the April 2014 Feature Pack, instead of adressing the underlying problems. Insta revives as answer to 7k autoattacks is infact the way that led us here.

When did I promote the power creep? That's you reading in something which I did not state.

I do not agree with changing the downed state given the power creep though.

Those two things are not the same.

I think they actually are, since downed state in his current environment is part of the creep.

Insignificant compared to the power creep which happened on all levels of which directly affects ttk in WvW:
  • access to boons
  • pure damage output of classes (which basically trippled compared to vanilla)
  • movement skills and map traversal (swiftness is basically baseline now for all classes even before the mount was added)
  • access to stealth (more blasts, more smoke fields)
  • new attribute combinations

But we are getting off topic. If you want to discuss power creep, make a new topic. I'm sure a lot of people will join in.

I'm discussing it with you because you brought it up as your main argument to leave DS as it is. So following your logic, all those things only affecting ttk, you are actually saying DS is much weaker now than it was pre 2014?

Then go re-read what I wrote since you first made the claim that I was in support of the power creep which has happened over the years, which I am not and never stated as such.

Then go read what I wrote to you misunderstanding what I wrote initially, which is that given the current power creep and its causes, I disagree with changing the way downed state works.

Now you can disagree that any of those power creep factors are more relevant than downed state, just like I disagree that downed state has been buffed in WvW. Until then I will again refere you to my: you are going of topic of this thread.

As to downed state itsself, it is of more consequence and importance compared to vanilla BECAUSE of the shorter ttk. Given how Arenanet have balanced and the abilities they have added, they seem aware of the problem. I find it a bandaid fix to the greater problem of short ttk, but as mentioned am unwilling to give up that bandaid fix until a change to ttk is made.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Downed penalty timer an actual penaltyIts currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charmRemove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Just like "remove desert bl" type threads, its apparently the minority. This is only confirmed with every (obviously biased) poll as well.

So yeah, believe harder I guess?

Im not sure what youre getting at. I linked the page to my previous post with 4 pages where i got 34 upvotes,maybe read through that.Comparing this to "remove desert bl" doesnt make sense in the slighest bit,im not asking for the removal of anything. Im asking for a change. Roamers are obviously the minority,thats no guess,i think i was clear about that without having to spell it out.

34 upvotes... thousands upon thousands of players.That alone reinforces his minority comment.

Haha that's not many. There is an enormous silent majority that gets shit decisions imposed on them because a vocal minority manipulates the developers right here on the forum.

The developers are giving us what this tiny minority (The 34) wants.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

That happens when you can't read. For the third time,i Do not ask for the removal of downed state and here you are.

Except that I disagree with the idea that roaming needs anything given.

I was addressing your constant bringing up your 34 up votes as argument while at the same time giving one of the main reasons as to why and how downed state is balanced and implemented. I'll try to be clearer in the future since you seem to have a hard time extrapolating relevant information.

I have to bring that up because clearly people have have reading issues. I even gave examples as how to change it yet people keep yelling "I want downed state to stay".

"That can be the ress speed,hp% in downed state,not being able to get up 4x in one minute etc. There are multiple ways to adress this"

Something i also need to keep repeating.

All of which I am fully aware of. Have you also addressed the vastly reduced ttk compared to vanilla?

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

What are people going to do that disagree ? I think thats pretty clear isnt it ?
  • So given ttk is a lot lower since vanilla.
  • Given that no downed state week clearly shows that there are severe issues with this game mode when downed state is temoprarily removed.
  • Given that there is builds and abilities directly added into the game by Arenanet to get people faster out of downed state.

You can't connect the dots?

Here let me help:Arenanet use downed state to balance and add a tactical element to the main design and gameplay component in WvW: huge group fights. They have added abilities and runes to specifically allow downed state management. They added a no downed state week to test how the game would work without downed state but have not expanded on that concept. I'm not sure how much clearer their design around downed state can be.

EDIT: don't gimme that bs. Overall ttk is way down from vanilla. If you disagree with that, fine, I don't care. But expect people to put up resistance who do agree that ttk in WvW is way down (same as spvp by the way).

It's comical how patronising you are, while unironically promoting downstate as a solution to the powercreep problem, people discuss since the April 2014 Feature Pack, instead of adressing the underlying problems. Insta revives as answer to 7k autoattacks is infact the way that led us here.

When did I promote the power creep? That's you reading in something which I did not state.

I do not agree with changing the downed state given the power creep though.

Those two things are not the same.

I think they actually are, since downed state in his current environment is part of the creep.

Insignificant compared to the power creep which happened on all levels of which directly affects ttk in WvW:
  • access to boons
  • pure damage output of classes (which basically trippled compared to vanilla)
  • movement skills and map traversal (swiftness is basically baseline now for all classes even before the mount was added)
  • access to stealth (more blasts, more smoke fields)
  • new attribute combinations

But we are getting off topic. If you want to discuss power creep, make a new topic. I'm sure a lot of people will join in.

I'm discussing it with you because you brought it up as your main argument to leave DS as it is. So following your logic, all those things only affecting ttk, you are actually saying DS is much weaker now than it was pre 2014?

Then go re-read what I wrote since you first made the claim that I was in support of the power creep which has happened over the years, which I am not and never stated as such.

Then go read what I wrote to you misunderstanding what I wrote initially, which is that given the current power creep and its causes, I disagree with changing the way downed state works.

Now you can disagree that any of those power creep factors are more relevant than downed state, just like I disagree that downed state has been buffed in WvW. Until then I will again refere you to my: you are going of topic of this thread.

As to downed state itsself, it is of more consequence and importance compared to vanilla BECAUSE of the shorter ttk. Given how Arenanet have balanced and the abilities they have added, they seem aware of the problem. I find it a bandaid fix to the greater problem of short ttk, but as mentioned am unwilling to give up that bandaid fix until a change to ttk is made.

That doesn't really answer my question. How is it off topic, to find out how downed state is performing, in let's say 1vx, 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, 30vx, 50v50 in the current environment, compared to the past? If what you claim was true, and ttk got buffed like crazy ,while DS stayed mostly unbuffed, it would underperform hard in all these szenarios.

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@schloumou.3982 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

That happens when you can't read. For the third time,i Do not ask for the removal of downed state and here you are.

Except that I disagree with the idea that roaming needs anything given.

I was addressing your constant bringing up your 34 up votes as argument while at the same time giving one of the main reasons as to why and how downed state is balanced and implemented. I'll try to be clearer in the future since you seem to have a hard time extrapolating relevant information.

I have to bring that up because clearly people have have reading issues. I even gave examples as how to change it yet people keep yelling "I want downed state to stay".

"That can be the ress speed,hp% in downed state,not being able to get up 4x in one minute etc. There are multiple ways to adress this"

Something i also need to keep repeating.

All of which I am fully aware of. Have you also addressed the vastly reduced ttk compared to vanilla?

@Cyninja.2954 said:First off, your 34 upvotes are near meaningless. You gave no ability for people to contradict you or disagree. That's like making a poll with only YES as an answer. Obviously people who agree will upvote your comment, what exactly are people who disagree going to do? Exactly, nothing.

Second, most forum useres migrate to threads they find interesting to them. People who have no issue with downed state works might not even look at your thread or just skim through it. Forums have a tendacy to amplify any opinion or topic in one of two directions (eihter draw a lot of positiv feedback or the exact opposite).

Finally, no downed state week clearly shows what the issues of no downed state are: everybody goes full burst and just tries to pick off as many players as possible. The ttk in this game is designed with downed state in mind. If you were to remove the downed state, expect severe rebalance in survivability. That in turn would absolutely kill roaming.

What are people going to do that disagree ? I think thats pretty clear isnt it ?
  • So given ttk is a lot lower since vanilla.
  • Given that no downed state week clearly shows that there are severe issues with this game mode when downed state is temoprarily removed.
  • Given that there is builds and abilities directly added into the game by Arenanet to get people faster out of downed state.

You can't connect the dots?

Here let me help:Arenanet use downed state to balance and add a tactical element to the main design and gameplay component in WvW: huge group fights. They have added abilities and runes to specifically allow downed state management. They added a no downed state week to test how the game would work without downed state but have not expanded on that concept. I'm not sure how much clearer their design around downed state can be.

EDIT: don't gimme that bs. Overall ttk is way down from vanilla. If you disagree with that, fine, I don't care. But expect people to put up resistance who do agree that ttk in WvW is way down (same as spvp by the way).

It's comical how patronising you are, while unironically promoting downstate as a solution to the powercreep problem, people discuss since the April 2014 Feature Pack, instead of adressing the underlying problems. Insta revives as answer to 7k autoattacks is infact the way that led us here.

When did I promote the power creep? That's you reading in something which I did not state.

I do not agree with changing the downed state given the power creep though.

Those two things are not the same.

I think they actually are, since downed state in his current environment is part of the creep.

Insignificant compared to the power creep which happened on all levels of which directly affects ttk in WvW:
  • access to boons
  • pure damage output of classes (which basically trippled compared to vanilla)
  • movement skills and map traversal (swiftness is basically baseline now for all classes even before the mount was added)
  • access to stealth (more blasts, more smoke fields)
  • new attribute combinations

But we are getting off topic. If you want to discuss power creep, make a new topic. I'm sure a lot of people will join in.

I'm discussing it with you because you brought it up as your main argument to leave DS as it is. So following your logic, all those things only affecting ttk, you are actually saying DS is much weaker now than it was pre 2014?

Then go re-read what I wrote since you first made the claim that I was in support of the power creep which has happened over the years, which I am not and never stated as such.

Then go read what I wrote to you misunderstanding what I wrote initially, which is that given the current power creep and its causes, I disagree with changing the way downed state works.

Now you can disagree that any of those power creep factors are more relevant than downed state, just like I disagree that downed state has been buffed in WvW. Until then I will again refere you to my: you are going of topic of this thread.

As to downed state itsself, it is of more consequence and importance compared to vanilla BECAUSE of the shorter ttk. Given how Arenanet have balanced and the abilities they have added, they seem aware of the problem. I find it a bandaid fix to the greater problem of short ttk, but as mentioned am unwilling to give up that bandaid fix until a change to ttk is made.

That doesn't really answer my question. How is it off topic, to find out how downed state is performing, in let's say 1vx, 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, 30vx, 50v50 in the current environment, compared to the past? If what you claim was true, and ttk got buffed like crazy ,while DS stayed mostly unbuffed, it would underperform hard in all these szenarios.

No, ttk was not buffed but reduced (as in made shorter, I'll assume that is what you meant). DS stayed unbuffed and more mechanics were introduced to make use of Downed State to compensate for the shorter ttk.

As such yes, Downed State has become more important to big blob fights, guild versus guild fights and WvW overall. The only aspect of the game which is negatively affected is ganking and to a smaller extent serious roaming. I'm making the distinctions because serious roaming and duelling in WvW often gets ignored by decent publics and most definately by static groups, unless roamers start poking. Ganking is of little worth in WvW in my personal opinion, though good roamers have my respect.

Also you were not asking how downed state is performing. You literally called me patronizing and in favor of power creep.

TL;DR:Downed State is currently performing as a band aid fix to the severe power creep WvW has experienced. The fact that it performs stronger than or is more important than during vanilla is a direct result of this.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:
Downed penalty timer an actual penalty
Its currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charm
Remove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

And this my friend is you not understanding... “Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group”...

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:
Downed penalty timer an actual penalty
Its currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charm
Remove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

And this my friend is you not understanding... “Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group”...

@Swagger.1459 said:Downed state benefits any size group,

My apologies then for misunderstanding you, I assumed that this statement was implying that downstate benefits any size group both large and small equally. Which as we can now both agree couldn't be more wrong.

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@Caedmon.6798 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Just like "remove desert bl" type threads, its apparently the minority. This is only confirmed with every (obviously biased) poll as well.

So yeah, believe harder I guess?

Im not sure what youre getting at. I linked the page to my previous post with 4 pages where i got 34 upvotes,maybe read through that.Comparing this to "remove desert bl" doesnt make sense in the slighest bit,im not asking for the removal of anything. Im asking for a change. Roamers are obviously the minority,thats no guess,i think i was clear about that without having to spell it out.

Happy players don't typically come to forums to vote, so any "change" vote is, by nature, biased.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:
Downed penalty timer an actual penalty
Its currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charm
Remove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

And this my friend is you not understanding... “Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group”...

@Swagger.1459 said:Downed state benefits any size group,

My apologies then for misunderstanding you, I assumed that this statement was implying that downstate benefits any size group both large and small equally. Which as we can now both agree couldn't be more wrong.

Everyone benefits from downed mechanics.

Are you new to wvw or something? Never seen, or been part of, a smaller group that rez downed members?

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@"TheBravery.9615" said:There's too many mechanics integrated with downed state, finishers, ressurects etc. Some skills would just become useless. (e.g. scrapper's mechanics)

There could be adjustments made to the downed state mechanic so it wouldn't render the existing mechanics useless though.

Easy way around that is add a new rune set where the 6th bonus is "downed state". If a player wants down state, use the runes. Don't use the runes, no down state for you. That way the downed mechanics around some classes aren't entirely useless because some people will still probably use them.

Depending on how zerg battles progress we may see a serious drop in downed players, or perhaps many players, just to stay alive, will need them basically providing no real change. If however players do make the change to downed state runes, it should filter out in the battle by the removal of some other bonuses on their previous rune set they were relying on.

If it comes to a point that people forego downstate, the classes that have mechanics built around it will have to pick another set of traits or trait line. To be honest, I've never seen any zerg or group anywhere ever require a player to trait themselves around downstate mechanics, so I really don't think it will be that big of a deal.

One thing I noticed too, the last downed state event, there was a dramatic increase in players throughout the week.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Can’t believe some are having this much of a tough time with the current downed mechanics...

What can we say, some of us like taking fights where the numbers are not in our favour. Something downstate apologists wouldn't really understand.

Downed state benefits any size group, and of course it’s tougher when solo against more than 1... As it should be because this is an unpredictable “open world” RvR mode not a 1v1 designed mode...

And I roam most of the time in wvw, and don’t see what the hubbub is all about... Sometimes you win, sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you get the stomp or kill, sometimes you don’t. And that’s how it goes, so we can deal with it or not.

There were plenty of times I didn’t get the kill, but I didn’t run to the forums complaining and asking to change game mechanics because I couldn’t handle it.

Edit- And seriously, what do some want next? The devs to change the mechanics in SPvP so you can have the possibility to win a match 1v5?

Well firstly I wouldn't say I'm complaining I'd say I 'm criticizing. I'm trying to contribute ideas as to why I think downstate is unbalanced and how it could be improved. Complaining is if I just said downstate is bad boo hoo without explaining myself.

Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group, it specifically benefits the larger group at all times. It is much much harder for a smaller group to cleave down a target when the larger group is reviving and cleaving. Fighting outnumbered is already an uphill battle as you stated. Downstate makes what is already a very steep hill into a mountain.

All I'm saying is that the larger group already has the advantage of more people. I Think in its current state if the outnumbered force manages to down one of the enemy players on the opposing and numerically superior team, then I think i think the advantage when it comes to finishing that player should be given to the outnumbered force. But in its current state the pendulum swings very much in favour of those who are reviving over those who are finishing.

@"Dawdler.8521" said:
Downed penalty timer an actual penalty
Its currently sits at a measly 60 seconds. This means that if you go down, get ressed, then survive for a minute (kind of easy in a slugfest among tanks), you loose that penalty. Increase this to at least 180s.

Third times the charm
Remove one downed penalty stage. Instead of 75%/50%/25%/dead make it go 66%/33%/dead.

Nothing in this really requires any "balance" considerations, any changes to skills or any major coding done (the last suggestion being the "worst"). I consider all this perfectly acceptable both for PvE and sPvP as well. PvErs cant really argue anything, they say PvE is too easy anyway. Dont think sPvPers often encounter the WvW issues with power ressing and repeated downing.

And that is really all I will say on this subject, because downed state threads always end up a mess with uncompromising cries to delete it.

I would be more than happy for these changes to be implemented. Sure I hate downstate, but I'd be more than happy for any compromise such as the changes you suggested.

And this my friend is you not understanding... “Secondly, downstate does not benefit any sized group”...

@Swagger.1459 said:Downed state benefits any size group,

My apologies then for misunderstanding you, I assumed that this statement was implying that downstate benefits any size group both large and small equally. Which as we can now both agree couldn't be more wrong.

Everyone benefits from downed mechanics.

Are you new to wvw or something? Never seen, or been part of, a smaller group that rez downed members?

Of course I have, however reviving downed players when you are outnumbered is significaly more difficult than it is reviving when you have numbers on your side. An analogy would be like saying that a penalty kick in football (soccer in the USA) is balanced equally between the kicker and the goalkeeper simply because we've seen the goal keepers save it sometimes. So yes I have revived my team mates in outnumbered fights before, but I was still extremely disadvantaged by downstate due to being outnumbered. Sometimes the goal keeper can save it, but to then use that as your logic to build an argument stating that penalty kicks favour both the attack and defense equally is ridiculous. Much the same way that stating you've revived allies before when you've been outnumbered means downstate benefits both groups equally is ridiculous.

Are you new to fighting outnumbered or something?

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@"Caedmon.6798" said:After all the people making threads about downed state,and ive made several myself aswell usually with good responses and a few not being so positive, but the majority did. And you finally realize about a year back that downed state do is an issue and introducing "No downed state week" to keep the few happy. What about actually adressing issues related to this carrying factor from which you know about already ? I know it's all about blob play and everything being done is evolving around that concept but downed state is no issue there anyway so a nerf to it wouldn't matter in that scenario. Give something to roamers already, which you've been neglecting for far too long while adding mechanics to make it harder for them. It's time to take off the extra 2 wheels because you already added 4 when you introduced mounts.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54785/downed-state-nerf-it/p1

Will a change to downed state change the skill balance of the classes? NOWill a change of the downed state change the population imbalance? NOWill a change of downed state change the actual flaws of the pairing system of the servers? NOWill a change in the downed state correct the reward values in WvW? NOWill a change in the downed state solve the bugs allowing to enter a structure without destroying the walls/doors? NOWill a change in the downed state solve the LoS bugs and "no valid path to target" bugs? NOWill a change in the downed state remove the WarCat from WvW? - I doubt.

So, I think you figured out why the downed state will be not reworked. It is not its time. Without solving the real problems (the players wait for the Alliance system) the WvW may become a dead mode. And with or without downed state, dead means dead. AAA - and with the mount they indeed introduced 4. Not wheels, but legs. And you know, we already have 2 legs (as players). Another 4 are as useful as the fifth wheel to a chariot.

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Popular consensus is not always right. For every person who wants downed state to be removed, I can imagine they'll come back to complain about being one-shot later on. A multitude of reasons has been posted explaining why this would not be easy to implement. Yet another poorly thought-out post. But by all means, remove it. WvW is beyond help anyway.

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You know whats broken? Scrapper barrier and sustain, warrior passives procs passive heals passive everything with INCREDIBLE damage and sustain, huge powercreep allowing oneshots, soulbeast damage modifiers, holo damage modifiers, to name a few on top of my head.Edit: in case you forgot previous no downed state events, loads of ppl rerolled into cheese oneshot builds. But, I know, that says nothing, eh

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Caedmon.6798" said:After all the people making threads about downed state,and ive made several myself aswell usually with good responses and a few not being so positive, but the majority did. And you finally realize about a year back that downed state do is an issue and introducing "No downed state week" to keep the few happy. What about actually adressing issues related to this carrying factor from which you know about already ? I know it's all about blob play and everything being done is evolving around that concept but downed state is no issue there anyway so a nerf to it wouldn't matter in that scenario. Give something to roamers already, which you've been neglecting for far too long while adding mechanics to make it harder for them. It's time to take off the extra 2 wheels because you already added 4 when you introduced mounts.

Will a change to downed state change the skill balance of the classes? NOWill a change of the downed state change the population imbalance? NOWill a change of downed state change the actual flaws of the pairing system of the servers? NOWill a change in the downed state correct the reward values in WvW? NOWill a change in the downed state solve the bugs allowing to enter a structure without destroying the walls/doors? NOWill a change in the downed state solve the LoS bugs and "no valid path to target" bugs? NO
Will a change in the downed state remove the WarCat from WvW?
- I doubt.

So, I think you figured out why the downed state will be not reworked. It is not its time. Without solving the real problems (the players wait for the Alliance system) the WvW may become a dead mode. And with or without downed state, dead means dead. AAA - and with the mount they indeed introduced 4. Not wheels, but legs. And you know, we already have 2 legs (as players). Another 4 are as useful as the fifth wheel to a chariot.

The thing is though all those problems you just listed would take quite a bit of time and effort to solve. It would take very little effort to change downstate revive speed to be 10-50% (TBD) slower. Or for players who have been revived once to be instantly finished upon their second downing in the same fight. Or for players to start with 50% downed health etc. Any one of these alterations would be a good place to start and see how things go.

@Usagi.4835 said:Popular consensus is not always right. For every person who wants downed state to be removed, I can imagine they'll come back to complain about being one-shot later on. A multitude of reasons has been posted explaining why this would not be easy to implement. Yet another poorly thought-out post. But by all means, remove it. WvW is beyond help anyway.

Again, it doesn't need to be one extreme or the other. Remove or keep downstate. I'm sure Anet can simply make alterations to downstate to make it more balanced.

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