Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP

[Sigmoid.7082]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@"aelska.4609" said:Also consider removing

sigil of energy

. Some classes are transformed into dodgemachines, there is no reason for a sigil to be that impactful on the game... especially when paired with dodge traits.

so this work with weaver? is that a bug or intended? maybe that's what make them perma evade

Swapping elements counts as weapon swap for the purpose of weapon swapping sigils.

[Jeran.6850]

I feel i have to add, that of course sigil of energy keeps its 9 sec cooldown, so weaver do not gain more benefit by using this sigil through attunement swap than every other class by weapon swap... ok, weapon swap in general takes 10 sec, so maybe a slight advantage.

But since ele do not have a second weapon set, and almost every build shown on metabattle for other classes (with the exception of engineer of course) shows the use/combination of 4 sigils, while ele only can use 2 sigils... maybe makes the already questionable advantage of "on swap"-sigils, in this case, not that relevant.

I like to add a personal note: this ist my first post here, and my last english lesson had been about 30 years in the past. So, please be kind if i make mistakes with my wording.Thanks.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Nice and reasonable changes overall!

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Can we please stop with the "Let's remove everything from the game" mentality?

If you guys want everything to be the same, maybe go pick up an Atari 2600 and try some Pong.

And about Sigil of Energy being removed: This is literally "The worst idea I've ever heard suggested in this forum." I don't feel like I need to go too deep into explaining why. Anyone who knows GW2 competitive modes at all, would know why this is not only unnecessary, but just plainly a bad idea that would begin taking us down a road of removing healthy "active, not passive" counter play. That is NOT something that is going to help this game. And upon this, the game has been being balanced around Sigil of Energy since day one. Removing the sigil would have such overwhelming detrimental effects on the intra-class dynamic, that it would require a massive overhaul to every class to rearrange the game's balance after the removal of the sigil. IE: Removing Sigil of Energy wouldn't be removing much counter play from Mirage or Daredevil, but it would be removing an enormous amount of counter play from a Necromancer.

I assume that the people advocating the removal of Sigil of Energy, are probably imagining that it would be this fair baseline trim to the game's power creep concerning defensive play. But I can assure you that if you stop and actually estimate how this is going to effect the game, not only balance wise, but also how the game feels to play, this suggestion would render wide spread balance issues and a more "flat-footed" feeling of play, which I imagine player's aren't going to like after getting used to the standard of how things feel now, contrary to what they may believe.

And upon all of this, you guys have got to understand that this is an MMORPG that is supposed to have diverse gear options. There will always be some particular sigil or rune, that happens to jive well on most classes, and lots of people are going to use it, if not due to sheer statistical value, it will be due to preference. Taking this trending approach of "Remove it from the game!" will inevitably result in some pattern like this:

• Sigils of Energy is removed from the game.
• Builds that once used Energy, start filling slots with Revocation or Annulment or maybe Absorption, if they already didn't have these sigils.
• Straight boon removal becomes the next universal option that just works well and most builds begin employing it in heavy doses.
• A new bandwagon begins because someone notices lots of builds are running these sigils. Remove it from the game!
• Boon removal sigils are removed from the game.
• The next best set of sigils are identified that work well in competitive modes. Some mixtures of Escape & Cleansing for defensive sides, and Intelligence & Courage for offensive sides.
• A bandwagon starts because well, I guess it's a fun thing to do. Remove those sigils from the game! Too many people are using them.
• So on and so forth until we have only the 4 bottom sigils left to choose from, things that most people don't ever touch now. And even then, players will evaluate the usage of those sigils and discover that 1 or 2 of them were clearly better options than the others.
• Now with much fewer sigils left, all classes/builds are even further pigeonholed into having to use the same sigils as everyone else, because there aren't any options left!

I feel like, the moral of the story is 2x things here:

1. In attempts to diversify build options by removing options from the game, it will indirectly pigeonhole everyone into a more narrow selection of options, that naturally will result in more players, more frequently, using the same options as other players because there aren't many other options, resulting in the problem of overused options actually becoming worse over time, the less options there are to chose from.
2. If you want better balance, balance something, don't remove it from the game unless it is absolutely necessary. This is because removing something from a game entirely, often comes with more balance issues in other places that are larger and more difficult to deal with, than the original problem to begin with. And no matter how many OP things you remove from the game, and no matter how good the balance actually is between different options, there will always be an option or two that players view as the best or better. This is just what happens, how it works, in every game of this genre before it, and it will be the same in every game after it.

[Arheundel.6451]

We have to understand that humans are fundamentally selfish creatures , players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what thief, mesmer and...warrior are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about stealth and chainable instant CC?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above, they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Returnhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrowhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain , they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @Cal Cohen.3527 , let's not forget that Thief-mesmer and warrior have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after the cream on the top and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go also after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to Stealth or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

[bravan.3876]

Agree to @Trevor Boyer.6524 here, look at all the passive sustain before you even think about removing energy sigil. It was already nerfed by 50%: The only thing could be considered is to remove any ability to stack this boni with a rune like Adventure. So the rune (even if also already nerfed by 50%) could just get another 6. boni.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:We have to understand that humans are fundamentally selfish creatures , players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what thief, mesmer and...warrior are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about stealth and chainable instant CC?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above, they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Returnhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrowhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain , they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @Cal Cohen.3527 , let's not forget that Thief-mesmer and warrior have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after the cream on the top and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go also after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to Stealth or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

Lol u literally speak out against the devs listening to players due to their biased nature then follow up with an obvious bias nerf i dont like thief,mesmer and warrior post.Typical lol.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:We have to understand that

humans are fundamentally selfish creatures

, players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what

thief, mesmer and...warrior

are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about

stealth and chainable instant CC

?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above,

they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth

when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Return

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide

huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain

, they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @"Cal Cohen.3527" , let's not forget that

Thief-mesmer and warrior

have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after

the cream on the top

and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go

also

after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to

Stealth

or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

Lol u literally speak out against the devs listening to players due to their biased nature then follow up with an obvious bias nerf i dont like thief,mesmer and warrior post.Typical lol.

What part of my post is bias? I have spoken in pretty simple technical terms :

Thief - Mesmer and Warrior "don't have" access to the same type of sustain mentioned frequently during Powercreep talk.....same type that's it, they still have their own type of sustain with stealth/teleport and adrenaline usage, things which are conveniently left out of the picture when coming on the forum...am I right...dear thief main?

I would be pretty happy if the devs would reset everything to Pre-HoT launch...I would be pretty damn happy

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:We have to understand that

humans are fundamentally selfish creatures

, players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what

thief, mesmer and...warrior

are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about

stealth and chainable instant CC

?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above,

they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth

when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Return

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide

huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain

, they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @"Cal Cohen.3527" , let's not forget that

Thief-mesmer and warrior

have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after

the cream on the top

and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go

also

after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to

Stealth

or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

Lol u literally speak out against the devs listening to players due to their biased nature then follow up with an obvious bias nerf i dont like thief,mesmer and warrior post.Typical lol.

What part of my post is bias? I have spoken in pretty simple technical terms :

Thief - Mesmer and Warrior "don't have" access to the same type of sustain mentioned frequently during Powercreep talk.....same type that's it,

they still have their own type of sustain

with stealth/teleport and adrenaline usage, things which are conveniently left out of the picture when coming on the forum...am I right...dear thief main?

I would be pretty happy if the devs would reset everything to Pre-HoT launch...I would be pretty kitten happy

So would a lot of people. I'd gladly take a time where d/p thief wasn't ruined as well as having mobility and evades being enough for sustain unlike these days were most classes have great mobility, evade uptime, blocks, invulnerability etc etc on top almost all classes that can't be one shot due to innate tankyness unless built for dps to the extreme can still have one shot builds themselves or close to. Games way out of wack balance wise and I'm sure most would love a pre hot return. Until it's there class getting shaves.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:We have to understand that

humans are fundamentally selfish creatures

, players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what

thief, mesmer and...warrior

are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about

stealth and chainable instant CC

?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above,

they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth

when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Return

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide

huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain

, they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @"Cal Cohen.3527" , let's not forget that

Thief-mesmer and warrior

have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after

the cream on the top

and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go

also

after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to

Stealth

or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

Lol u literally speak out against the devs listening to players due to their biased nature then follow up with an obvious bias nerf i dont like thief,mesmer and warrior post.Typical lol.

What part of my post is bias? I have spoken in pretty simple technical terms :

Thief - Mesmer and Warrior "don't have" access to the same type of sustain mentioned frequently during Powercreep talk.....same type that's it,

they still have their own type of sustain

with stealth/teleport and adrenaline usage, things which are conveniently left out of the picture when coming on the forum...am I right...dear thief main?

I would be pretty happy if the devs would reset everything to Pre-HoT launch...I would be pretty kitten happy

So would a lot of people. I'd gladly take a time where d/p thief wasn't ruined as well as having mobility and evades being enough for sustain unlike these days were most classes have great mobility, evade uptime, blocks, invulnerability etc etc on top almost all classes that can't be one shot due to innate tankyness unless built for dps to the extreme can still have one shot builds themselves or close to. Games way out of wack balance wise and I'm sure most would love a pre hot return. Until it's there class getting shaves.

High mobility and evade spam are on par with other sustain forms you complain about...only with your bias you can't see the forest from the trees, you want to nerf other form of sustain while keeping your ability to reset at will with stealth or run away miles in a split second...even better than resetting the game to pre-HoT levels they should just delete all professions save thief.....doesn't sound great does it?

You should be able to start and end fights whenever you want...and while forcing people to invest in tanky stats in order to stand a chance against attacks from stealth out of nowhere...you come here complaining about that very stat investment I do.

This brings me back to GW2 launch period when thieves were suggesting people to go more tanky to avoud dieing instantly to their HS spam...7 years later and still the same story xd

[Fueki.4753]

Stealth and teleporting/shadow-stepping needs to be nerfed hard.Stealth could easily be nerfed by replacing it with some kind of shadow or smoke form that retains all benefits from stealth (and its traits), except it's still visible and can be targetted.teleport/shadow-stepping is harder to nerf though. It's either reduce the range into uselessness or increase the CD to multiple minutes.They also need to change shadow steps that they require available paths.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:We have to understand that

humans are fundamentally selfish creatures

, players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.

At first I was on board with the new devs as they were going after specific elements without taking out the sledge hammer but now...they started talking about removing that and that , people don't seem to realize that everything is chained to each other at this point, I mean : " D exists because of C which is a consequence of B....".

They keep talking about shaving defensive options but do they know what

thief, mesmer and...warrior

are capable of if left unchecked and with no real soft counter? They're going after the most obvious defensive options in game like : Heal and Boons...but what about

stealth and chainable instant CC

?

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above,

they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth

when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.

Sustain Powercreep is not only heal and boons as people on this forum want us to believe , things like :

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Return

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infiltrator%27s_Arrow

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Return

Skills like the ones linked above don't provide Heal or Boon like in the most classical meaning but they still provide

huge amounts of seemingly uncounterable sustain

, they remove the risk of playing an assassin class , truth be told GW2 thief is not really an assassin...it's more like a brawler with added stealth and immense mobility.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.

Dear @"Cal Cohen.3527" , let's not forget that

Thief-mesmer and warrior

have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game and if you're serious about balance I believe it's time to stop going only after

the cream on the top

and instead take a huge bite at the cake underneath , in a way or another classes like thief have been shaping the meta since launch, builds were being considered viable or not based on their ability to withstand thieves, mesmers or necros condi bursts.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go

also

after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW since launch..and not only the classes that constantly must find a new way to adapt to the preying of the usual Apex predators who have a too gratuitous access to

Stealth

or innate resilience (warrior and necro)

Lol u literally speak out against the devs listening to players due to their biased nature then follow up with an obvious bias nerf i dont like thief,mesmer and warrior post.Typical lol.

What part of my post is bias? I have spoken in pretty simple technical terms :

Thief - Mesmer and Warrior "don't have" access to the same type of sustain mentioned frequently during Powercreep talk.....same type that's it,

they still have their own type of sustain

with stealth/teleport and adrenaline usage, things which are conveniently left out of the picture when coming on the forum...am I right...dear thief main?

I would be pretty happy if the devs would reset everything to Pre-HoT launch...I would be pretty kitten happy

So would a lot of people. I'd gladly take a time where d/p thief wasn't ruined as well as having mobility and evades being enough for sustain unlike these days were most classes have great mobility, evade uptime, blocks, invulnerability etc etc on top almost all classes that can't be one shot due to innate tankyness unless built for dps to the extreme can still have one shot builds themselves or close to. Games way out of wack balance wise and I'm sure most would love a pre hot return. Until it's there class getting shaves.

High mobility and evade spam are on par with other sustain forms you complain about...only with your bias you can't see the forest from the trees, you want to nerf other form of sustain while keeping your ability to reset at will with stealth or run away miles in a split second...even better than resetting the game to pre-HoT levels they should just delete all professions save thief.....doesn't sound great does it?

You should be able to start and end fights whenever you want...and while forcing people to invest in tanky stats in order to stand a chance against attacks from stealth out of nowhere...you come here complaining about that very stat investment I do.

This brings me back to GW2 launch period when thieves were

suggesting

people to go more tanky to avoud dieing instantly to their HS spam...7 years later and still the same story xd

Sure the are cuz classes like ranger,warrior,holo and more etc have lower mobility to compensate for their high sustain lol as well as other drawbacks right? Take wvw for example now with mounts 3 people on a mount most definitely can keep up with thief so wheres the mobility advantage? In fight mobility if u actually think about it most classes these days also have amazing in fight mobility even reaper but not great chasing or disengage mobility but that's what mounts are for right? So know every class can get to where they want or chase anyone down in small groups with the speed of a thief which is fine as thief still has stealth as ITS advantage but now players want that nerfed more without de powercreeping mobility etc in other classes so a thief with little stealth access or less evade access in today's game would mean death of the class.Everyone goes on about how toxic it is that a thief can if specifically built to one or two shot non sustainy build yet it's fine that all classes that build for dps can one or two shot the thief lol and these classes are dueler specs that are meant to sustain longer IN fight, so next time a thief disengage and engages maybe consider that :)

[rharmy.1970]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@rharmy.1970 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

It is, good thing its impossible, you described 2 invulns.so signet of illusion.reflect? dome of reflect then. ( unless you mean refect trait on evade. )blinds? signet of midnightlong evade ?????stealth, so signet of midnight ( 2s )repeat? 60s signet of illy, 50s disort, 30s midnight.20 stacks of confusion????? im assuming you mean fully traited f2 shatter?not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage.its like calling soulbeast that deals 20k rapidfire but he also is very tanky.its like calling fb, never die, but also heal everyone to full in 1-2s but also burn for 30-40k dmg in 3s.

you combined several builds into 1. taking stuff out of your ass is not the way to balance game.

[viquing.8254]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:We have to understand that humans are fundamentally selfish creatures , players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.False there is some masochists too.

The ones shouting the loudest on the forum are those using at least one of the classes I have mentioned above, they keep putting emphasy on Heal and Boons...no mention of Stealth when they talk about "powercreep" , like it's fine to be oneshotted from stealth or allow players to reset indefinitely draining your CD ...piece by piece.Agreed, that's why mesmer is overnerfed and end with passive gameplay, that's also why mesmers start to be loud because of random nerfs thanks to casual forum whiners.

The new devs keep talking about powercreep sustain as being only heal and boons..but things like stealth/evades/mobility count for sustain too in my book , the ability to sustain does not only include the ability to recover from dmg but also the tools to avoid dmg and reset the fight till more favourable conditions are met.Note that the ability to resustain is more usefull in a cap/anticap game if put at the same level of teleport/stealth sustain.Dear @Cal Cohen.3527 , let's not forget that Thief-mesmer and warrior have been meta everywhere in different ways since the launch of the game.What ?There was only one mesmer in vanilla who can play mesmer in tournaments thanks to hugde teamplay help for his sustain.There was only few mesmers who performs well during HoT because of portal/moa niches and we can count them on leaderboard because they were inexistants apart 2,3 who duoQ teamplay.Only during PoF and chronotanks periods you see mesmers.The most meta class globally are GWENR classes.Mesmer wasn't in a winning tournament team since a long time now, same for global leaderboard representation.

If you really want to balance the game...you must go also after the classes that have been shaping the meta of the PvP/WvW.Totally, then nerf :Gardian,War,Elem,Necro,Rev,Because talking about WvW meta, any GWENr class gain more XPM/game impact/reward than my 4 years WvW mesmers when I was doing WvW.

So

We have to understand that

humans are fundamentally selfish creatures

, players will only ever give suggestions or have demands that in the end will benefit them somehow , the devs by listening zealously to the forum feedback will make the game even worst than now.Yeah that's just what you are doing with zero argument other than personnale feelings.

Now if you are serious, start doing some math, give me a heal/sec, damage/clics, count the number of 3 on 1 effetcs on buttons, go into vigor uptime, invulnerability uptime, block uptime and so one on class you want to nerf before coming here putting biased casual like view please, so you can argue about nerf with more than wind arguments.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

It is, good thing its impossible, you described 2 invulns.so signet of illusion.reflect? dome of reflect then. ( unless you mean refect trait on evade. )blinds? signet of midnightlong evade ?????stealth, so signet of midnight ( 2s )repeat? 60s signet of illy, 50s disort, 30s midnight.20 stacks of confusion????? im assuming you mean fully traited f2 shatter?not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage.its like calling soulbeast that deals 20k rapidfire but he also is very tanky.its like calling fb, never die, but also heal everyone to full in 1-2s but also burn for 30-40k dmg in 3s.

you combined several builds into 1. taking stuff out of your kitten is not the way to balance game.

@rharmy.1970 is literally just referencing one of the staff sc/p meta builds for mirage which has everything he listed.

1. As a mirage, a full 3 clone distort gives 4 seconds of invun + 2.25s of evasion by walking over the Mirage Mirrors that spawn from Desert Distortion x2 with Signet of Illusions can give the mesmer a 12.5s long period of time that you literally cannot touch them.
2. Illusionary Counter's 2nd part of the ability, Counterspell, also applies blind.
3. Jaunt also applies blind coupled with Rune of the Nightmare.
4. Also, as for 20 stacks of confusion, that can be achieved through any combination of:
   • Confusing Images (sc3)
   • Magic Bullet (p5 which can also blind on the 3rd bounce)
   • Ether Barrage (sc ambush)
   • Cry of Frustration (f2 which also blinds when traited with Blinding Dissipation).

"not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage."lol no... you just don't have a very good understanding of your own class which doesn't surprise me seeing as how you're a self-admitted hard-stuck gold tier (for months!) mesmer main

[FalsePromises.6398]

The issue with condi thief’s burst isn’t spider venom, because that’s a utility just as much as assassin signet or binding shadow. The issue is deadly ambition. Free three poison on any hit every 8 seconds. Remove that, rework it into something more static instead of bursty, and their burst goes down, but stays relevant.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

It is, good thing its impossible, you described 2 invulns.so signet of illusion.reflect? dome of reflect then. ( unless you mean refect trait on evade. )blinds? signet of midnightlong evade ?????stealth, so signet of midnight ( 2s )repeat? 60s signet of illy, 50s disort, 30s midnight.20 stacks of confusion????? im assuming you mean fully traited f2 shatter?not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage.its like calling soulbeast that deals 20k rapidfire but he also is very tanky.its like calling fb, never die, but also heal everyone to full in 1-2s but also burn for 30-40k dmg in 3s.

you combined several builds into 1. taking stuff out of your kitten is not the way to balance game.

@rharmy.1970 is literally just referencing one of the

staff sc/p meta builds for mirage

which has

everything

he listed.

1. As a mirage, a full 3 clone distort gives 4 seconds of invun + 2.25s of evasion by walking over the Mirage Mirrors that spawn from Desert Distortion x2 with Signet of Illusions can give the mesmer a 12.5s long period of time that you literally
   cannot
   touch them.
2. Illusionary Counter's 2nd part of the ability, Counterspell, also applies blind.
3. Jaunt also applies blind coupled with Rune of the Nightmare.
4. Also, as for 20 stacks of confusion, that can be achieved through any combination of:
   • Confusing Images (sc3)
   • Magic Bullet (p5 which can
     also
     blind on the 3rd bounce)
   • Ether Barrage (sc ambush)
   • Cry of Frustration (f2 which
     also
     blinds when traited with Blinding Dissipation).

"not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage."lol no... you just don't have a very good understanding of your own class which doesn't surprise me seeing as how you're a

self-admitted hard-stuck gold tier (for months!) mesmer main

knew you would pop here to comment this "technically correct" but 100% wrong statements.using scept 2 for blind is like using rampage to cleave clones, technically you can do it but its retarded.gl applying 20 stacks of confusion bruh, combined with 12 torment ( remember you use scept 2 for blind :D )you just posted flawed build that has literally 1 cleanse, on jaunt.

hey ill take stuff out of context too!https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring heals for 30k on 30s cd, broken heal.

you just listed bunch of shit that nobody uses to say that you have them, no you dont confuse with p5 AND blind with it, no you dont torment with sc2 AND blind with it.no you dont shatter f2, only for vigor before combat or to get 200 dmg.Jaunts blind from nightmare gets wasted for mobility 99% of the timeevading attack with jaunt > using it for potential blind and 200 dmg.

calling sc2 a blind is like calling thiefs sword 2 a no cooldown cleanse, yes 5 ini for 1 cleanse.what else, soon peeps start saying that mirage spams poison with their RnG chaosstorm and 1 sigil of DoOm.

ps there are better versions of this build, with more mobility and better cleansing, in turn you lose some invuln frames, you can use mobility to avoid attacks AND move areound that map, who would have thought!gl against condi with that shitty build, 0,2s flip from condi thief and you better disort -> signet -> disort to lose only 50% of your hp.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

It is, good thing its impossible, you described 2 invulns.so signet of illusion.reflect? dome of reflect then. ( unless you mean refect trait on evade. )blinds? signet of midnightlong evade ?????stealth, so signet of midnight ( 2s )repeat? 60s signet of illy, 50s disort, 30s midnight.20 stacks of confusion????? im assuming you mean fully traited f2 shatter?not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage.its like calling soulbeast that deals 20k rapidfire but he also is very tanky.its like calling fb, never die, but also heal everyone to full in 1-2s but also burn for 30-40k dmg in 3s.

you combined several builds into 1. taking stuff out of your kitten is not the way to balance game.

@rharmy.1970 is literally just referencing one of the

staff sc/p meta builds for mirage

which has

everything

he listed.

1. As a mirage, a full 3 clone distort gives 4 seconds of invun + 2.25s of evasion by walking over the Mirage Mirrors that spawn from Desert Distortion x2 with Signet of Illusions can give the mesmer a 12.5s long period of time that you literally
   cannot
   touch them.
2. Illusionary Counter's 2nd part of the ability, Counterspell, also applies blind.
3. Jaunt also applies blind coupled with Rune of the Nightmare.
4. Also, as for 20 stacks of confusion, that can be achieved through any combination of:
   • Confusing Images (sc3)
   • Magic Bullet (p5 which can
     also
     blind on the 3rd bounce)
   • Ether Barrage (sc ambush)
   • Cry of Frustration (f2 which
     also
     blinds when traited with Blinding Dissipation).

"not a single build will have all things you described. you described 3 different variation of mirage."lol no... you just don't have a very good understanding of your own class which doesn't surprise me seeing as how you're a

self-admitted hard-stuck gold tier (for months!) mesmer main

knew you would pop here to comment this "technically correct" but 100% wrong statements.using scept 2 for blind is like using rampage to cleave clones, technically you can do it but its kitten.gl applying 20 stacks of confusion bruh, combined with 12 torment ( remember you use scept 2 for blind :D )you just posted flawed build that has literally 1 cleanse, on jaunt.

hey ill take stuff out of context too!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Spring

heals for 30k on 30s cd, broken heal.

you just listed bunch of kitten that nobody uses to say that you have them, no you dont confuse with p5 AND blind with it, no you dont torment with sc2 AND blind with it.no you dont shatter f2, only for vigor before combat or to get 200 dmg.Jaunts blind from nightmare gets wasted for mobility 99% of the timeevading attack with jaunt > using it for potential blind and 200 dmg.

calling sc2 a blind is like calling thiefs sword 2 a no cooldown cleanse, yes 5 ini for 1 cleanse.what else, soon peeps start saying that mirage spams poison with their RnG chaosstorm and 1 sigil of DoOm.

ps there are better versions of this build, with more mobility and better cleansing, in turn you lose some invuln frames, you can use mobility to avoid attacks AND move areound that map, who would have thought!gl against condi with that kitten build, 0,2s flip from condi thief and you better disort -> signet -> disort to lose only 50% of your hp.

Yes, gold player. Please lecture me on how to play this game! /s

Saying my "technically correct" statements are "100% wrong" is... can you guess? Wrong.

1. Good players will stow their weapons into your sc2 so they don't have to blow a defensive cooldown/dodge on the Counter. However, a blind on Counterspell means you STILL get value by forcing them to dodge the blind or make them miss their next attack. So, no. Using it for the blind is a very effective tactic that should be utilized EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. the enemy does not hit the Illusionary Counter.
2. I don't have the time to make a video right now but imagine thinking it's hard to stack 20 confusion and 12 torment on a condi mirage. lol
3. Your claim about Healing Spring is irrelevant and doesn't do anything to help your argument. In fact, it does the opposite.
4. I don't know what class @rharmy.1970 plays but if he runs ranger you can actually land both the confusion and blind on the same person IF you target him, it bounces to his pet, and then hits him again.
5. If you choose to blow your Cry of Frustration before you enter combat (to start regening your dodge bar even though you haven't used any dodges yet) that is entirely your fault and seemingly another reason why you're in gold.
6. Calling sc2 a blind is like calling GS4 on ranger pre-patch a knockback OR a cripple. Which, is entirely correct and is exactly how the skill(s) function. Calling s2 on thief a no-cooldown cleanse is false.

Again, you need to understand the fact that you've been hard-stuck in gold tier for months can be attributed to 1-3 reasons (or any combination of them):

1. You are not strong mechanically.
2. You are not strong rotationally.
3. You do not understand the classes you are playing as and fighting against.

In your case, #1 and #3 DEFINITELY apply.

Oh and here's a mirage build with more cleanses that still checks the boxes on everything @rharmy.1970 said.

[aelska.4609]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

And about Sigil of Energy being removed: This is literally "The worst idea I've ever heard suggested in this forum." [...] Removing the sigil would have such overwhelming detrimental effects on the intra-class dynamic, that it would require a massive overhaul to every class to rearrange the game's balance after the removal of the sigil.

That is exactly what I was meaning. The sigil is doing too much :)Give it a flat vigor bonus if you don't want to see it disappear from the game.Dodge mechanic is very powerful when used properly, with this sigil it allows bad players to dodge more, which basically brings more spam.People should be able to punish players that time their dodge badly. That should be one of the things that distinguish the good players from the bad ones.Of course this sigil is not the only cause of the current situation.

I assume that the people advocating the removal of Sigil of Energy, are probably imagining that it would be this fair baseline trim to the game's power creep concerning defensive play. But I can assure you that if you stop and actually estimate how this is going to effect the game, not only balance wise, but also how the game feels to play, this suggestion would render wide spread balance issues and a more "flat-footed" feeling of play, which I imagine player's aren't going to like after getting used to the standard of how things feel now, contrary to what they may believe.

Same comment.

And upon all of this, you guys have got to understand that this is an MMORPG that is supposed to have diverse gear options. There will always be some particular sigil or rune, that happens to jive well on most classes, and lots of people are going to use it, if not due to sheer statistical value, it will be due to preference. Taking this trending approach of "Remove it from the game!" will inevitably result in some pattern like this:

• Sigils of Energy is removed from the game.
• Builds that once used Energy, start filling slots with Revocation or Annulment or maybe Absorption, if they already didn't have these sigils.
• Straight boon removal becomes the next universal option that just works well and most builds begin employing it in heavy doses.
• A new bandwagon begins because someone notices lots of builds are running these sigils. Remove it from the game!
• Boon removal sigils are removed from the game.
• The next best set of sigils are identified that work well in competitive modes. Some mixtures of Escape & Cleansing for defensive sides, and Intelligence & Courage for offensive sides.
• A bandwagon starts because well, I guess it's a fun thing to do. Remove those sigils from the game! Too many people are using them.
• So on and so forth until we have only the 4 bottom sigils left to choose from, things that most people don't ever touch now. And even then, players will evaluate the usage of those sigils and discover that 1 or 2 of them were clearly better options than the others.
• Now with much fewer sigils left, all classes/builds are even further pigeonholed into having to use the same sigils as everyone else, because there aren't any options left!

You are being extreme there. Yet paradoxal. You talk about build diversity around sigils yet you agree on the existence of sigil of energy as a must have sigil. Which totally prevents the other sigils to be chosen, which destroys the build diversity.

I feel like, the moral of the story is 2x things here:

1. In attempts to diversify build options by removing options from the game, it will indirectly pigeonhole everyone into a more narrow selection of options, that naturally will result in more players, more frequently, using the same options as other players because there aren't many other options, resulting in the problem of overused options actually becoming worse over time, the less options there are to chose from.
2. If you want better balance, balance something, don't remove it from the game unless it is absolutely necessary. This is because removing something from a game entirely, often comes with more balance issues in other places that are larger and more difficult to deal with, than the original problem to begin with. And no matter how many OP things you remove from the game, and no matter how good the balance actually is between different options, there will always be an option or two that players view as the best or better. This is just what happens, how it works, in every game of this genre before it, and it will be the same in every game after it.

Although I would agree with you, one important thing is missing from your moral:

If one build option is massively overused, there might be a good reason to tune it down, for the sake of build diversity. And that's the case with sigil of agility and sigil of energy.

[bravan.3876]

@aelska.4609 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

And about Sigil of Energy being removed: This is literally "The worst idea I've ever heard suggested in this forum." [...] Removing the sigil would have such overwhelming detrimental effects on the intra-class dynamic, that it would require a massive overhaul to every class to rearrange the game's balance after the removal of the sigil.

That is exactly what I was meaning. The sigil is doing too much :)Give it a flat vigor bonus if you don't want to see it disappear from the game.Dodge mechanic is very powerful when used properly, with this sigil it allows bad players to dodge more, which basically brings more spam.People should be able to punish players that time their dodge badly. That should be one of the things that distinguish the good players from the bad ones.Of course this sigil is not the only cause of the current situation.

I assume that the people advocating the removal of Sigil of Energy, are probably imagining that it would be this fair baseline trim to the game's power creep concerning defensive play. But I can assure you that if you stop and actually estimate how this is going to effect the game, not only balance wise, but also how the game feels to play, this suggestion would render wide spread balance issues and a more "flat-footed" feeling of play, which I imagine player's aren't going to like after getting used to the standard of how things feel now, contrary to what they may believe.

Same comment.

And upon all of this, you guys have got to understand that this is an MMORPG that is supposed to have diverse gear options. There will always be some particular sigil or rune, that happens to jive well on most classes, and lots of people are going to use it, if not due to sheer statistical value, it will be due to preference. Taking this trending approach of "Remove it from the game!" will inevitably result in some pattern like this:

• Sigils of Energy is removed from the game.
• Builds that once used Energy, start filling slots with Revocation or Annulment or maybe Absorption, if they already didn't have these sigils.
• Straight boon removal becomes the next universal option that just works well and most builds begin employing it in heavy doses.
• A new bandwagon begins because someone notices lots of builds are running these sigils. Remove it from the game!
• Boon removal sigils are removed from the game.
• The next best set of sigils are identified that work well in competitive modes. Some mixtures of Escape & Cleansing for defensive sides, and Intelligence & Courage for offensive sides.
• A bandwagon starts because well, I guess it's a fun thing to do. Remove those sigils from the game! Too many people are using them.
• So on and so forth until we have only the 4 bottom sigils left to choose from, things that most people don't ever touch now. And even then, players will evaluate the usage of those sigils and discover that 1 or 2 of them were clearly better options than the others.
• Now with much fewer sigils left, all classes/builds are even further pigeonholed into having to use the same sigils as everyone else, because there aren't any options left!

You are being extreme there. Yet paradoxal. You talk about build diversity around sigils yet you agree on the existence of sigil of energy as a must have sigil. Which totally prevents the other sigils to be chosen, which destroys the build diversity.

I feel like, the moral of the story is 2x things here:

1. In attempts to diversify build options by removing options from the game, it will indirectly pigeonhole everyone into a more narrow selection of options, that naturally will result in more players, more frequently, using the same options as other players because there aren't many other options, resulting in the problem of overused options actually becoming worse over time, the less options there are to chose from.
2. If you want better balance, balance something, don't remove it from the game unless it is absolutely necessary. This is because removing something from a game entirely, often comes with more balance issues in other places that are larger and more difficult to deal with, than the original problem to begin with. And no matter how many OP things you remove from the game, and no matter how good the balance actually is between different options, there will always be an option or two that players view as the best or better. This is just what happens, how it works, in every game of this genre before it, and it will be the same in every game after it.

Although I would agree with you, one important thing is missing from your moral:

If one build option is massively overused, there might be a good reason to tune it down, for the sake of build diversity.

And that's the case with sigil of agility and sigil of energy.

Bad players who time their dodges wrong or random dodge will not be saved for long by half a dodge every 18+ secs (barely anyone weaponsswaps on cd except Eles) or every 9+ secs when using it on both weapons sets what only Mirages do because they have to do dmg with their dodges by spec design. What will save bad players for much longer is passive facetank sustain. That needs to get removed first, after that we can talk about too spammable active defense if the remaining active defense even still is a problem after removing all the passive first. And just like with Agility it makes sense to look at classes first who are overperforming in active defense by traits and weaponskills anyway instead starting with the one and only resource of extra endurence some build only have who lack in vigor and endurance traits and dodges on weapons (like Necro). I am a big fan of higher cooldowns on skills (or at least remove traits which lower cds) to reduce the brainless spamfeast where no one rly gets punished for skill wastes. Holo is top example for that no cds-no punishment for spam-issue. Like no weapon needs to have an extra dodge as skill with less than 10 or 12 or even 15 secs cd (but as said if that is needed we can wait after removing the passive stuff first).

Lol @shadowpass.4236 havent seen you any higher than low plat too after a significant amount of games (not just lucky placements), if you want to take rank as indicator for gameknowledge you are not the first i would ask either. So to say, i haven't seen a single Condimirage in Plat3/ Legend or in At tryhard teams using Signet of Illusions until now.

[Equinox.1463]

@rharmy.1970 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@rharmy.1970 said:1> while nerfing mirage condi dmg and output, lowering theyre invuln time needs to happen as well1 -> they dont have more evasion/blocks/invulns then other specs, been proven before.

That's probably due to the YEARS long complain about Mirage Cloak, which many consider too potent.That's but that's an Evasion not an invul.

following this logic we can remove everything from anyone.¬ I could ask the same about guards, they have too much blocks!

• they dont have more evades/blocks/invulns then other classes¬ but more blocks with aegis and blue shields, its annoying and im too lazy to wait for it to wear off, remove it, nerf it!

proven is bs, while fighting a condi mirage today, the rotation goes , invuln > evade > invuln > evade > reflect > long evade > evade > stealth > repeat (lets not forget blinds every now and then)all while being able to apply 20 stacks of confusion and even more bleeds with at least 12 stacks of torment. please tell me how this is not overpowered.

Did you ever think about dodging when they went for their bIk BuRsT 2o CoNfUsIoN, 2o+ bLeEdS aNd i2 t0rMeNts?

Jokes aside, what shadowpass commented as a build is actually just bad. Considering a decent player knows to cleanse, dodge, stunbreak, all that stuff, and also considering the fact a Mirage will usually not be able to cap fully through that much invulnerability uptime, you literally just have to... walk away from the node and wait for their "burst" to be used up to not die to their combo wombo (20 stacks of confsions means sc ambush + sc 3 + sc ambush + pistol 5, bleeds mean sc ambush + pistol 5 + pistol 4, torment means sc ambush only, really). Just dodge that, my man. Or stunbreak/dodge. That'll help you a crap ton!

And to learn the counterplay, play a glassy version of the build - it's a good way to learn how to counter it while also getting better! http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAYtrlRwuYJMJmJWOXtPLA-z5YXGZmC9WBuOA

All here for better overall PvP population instead of a few G3 heroes thinking they're the best because they can one-trick poney (right, shadowpass?).

/coming from a multi-classer that learnt thief and mirage as first classes and can play all classes with a certainly decent level of success/

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:Lol @"shadowpass.4236" havent seen you any higher than low plat too after a significant amount of games (not just lucky placements), if you want to take rank as indicator for gameknowledge you are not the first i would ask either. So to say, i haven't seen a single Condimirage in Plat3/ Legend or in At tryhard teams using Signet of Illusions until now.

https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS

I started playing a lot less after this season. Last season I played a bunch of matches on EU cause I was recording core mantra mesmer games but I'd say the past 6 or so seasons I haven't played enough to show up on the leaderboards.

Anyone who has played scrims/tournies/ATs/is high rated on NA knows who I am so it doesn't really matter what you say.

If I wanted to this season I could go plat 3 on condi mirage but I just don't feel like playing this game anymore. The last MAT on NA double condi mirage won against Team USA so that's a pretty good indicator of how strong it still is.

Also, there are a LOT of good players that no longer play the game/don't play enough to qualify for the leaderboards. Look at Zeromis for example. He barely plays but he'd dumpster 99.9% of the population even with very little practice.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@aelska.4609 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

And about Sigil of Energy being removed: This is literally "The worst idea I've ever heard suggested in this forum." [...] Removing the sigil would have such overwhelming detrimental effects on the intra-class dynamic, that it would require a massive overhaul to every class to rearrange the game's balance after the removal of the sigil.

That is exactly what I was meaning. The sigil is doing too much :)Give it a flat vigor bonus if you don't want to see it disappear from the game.Dodge mechanic is very powerful when used properly, with this sigil it allows bad players to dodge more, which basically brings more spam.People should be able to punish players that time their dodge badly. That should be one of the things that distinguish the good players from the bad ones.Of course this sigil is not the only cause of the current situation.

• It may be doing too much on some classes, but it isn't doing enough on others, which is why many swap sides or builds don't use it at all. It's not that Energy is so OP, it's that when a side has really nothing else useful to take, Energy is a default choice to use rather than some sigil that isn't doing anything for the build at all. We need "go to" options like this, otherwise you're taking DPS options on some defensive weapon side, that aren't helping you at all.
• Agreed, a flat vigor bonus may suffice. But on many builds that already propagate much vigor, it would make Energy useless. Again, these are the types of actual causes & effects that people don't stop to think about before tossing suggestions.
• It lets bad players spam dodge rolls? Bad players spamming dodge rolls is what makes them a bad player. You've got to understand here the actual cause & effect that would happen if Energy was sudden removed from the game. You mention that "People should be able to punish players that time their dodges badly." <- This has been a thing since day one. This already happens. But if you were to sudden remove Energy from the game, even good players on something like a Necro, would not have enough dodge rolling to play around something with even a moderate to light amount of CC. Seriously, you would immediately lose if any class approached you that had 2 or 3 CCs. The 2 dodge rolls from the natural endurance bar is just not enough to play around things like LB Power Ranger, Engis with Rifle, Warrior CCs, well... pretty much anything & everything in the game. When the Necro has 2x Energy on each side, it balances juuuuuust enough frequency of dodge roll paired with his own CC play, to be able to have some realistic chance to counter play. If they were to remove Energy, certain classes/builds would receive this gap in their defensive cycle, where endurance was bottomed out and defensive skills were taking longer to recover CDs, than the opponent's offensive CCs. You've got to understand that universally lowering the amount of active counter play in this game right now, will result in a meta where the first person who tags the first CC, is going to be the person who wins. It's almost already like that with the power creep. But with less endurance gain game wide, it's going to heavily tip towards whoever gets the first CC play is going to lead the rest of the combat. Because there wouldn't be enough counter play for even good players to recover from such a blind side.

I assume that the people advocating the removal of Sigil of Energy, are probably imagining that it would be this fair baseline trim to the game's power creep concerning defensive play. But I can assure you that if you stop and actually estimate how this is going to effect the game, not only balance wise, but also how the game feels to play, this suggestion would render wide spread balance issues and a more "flat-footed" feeling of play, which I imagine player's aren't going to like after getting used to the standard of how things feel now, contrary to what they may believe.

Same comment.

• It's not the same comment or discussion. This part is stressing for the reader to recognize that when a game slows down its standard of mobility/evasion, it rarely works out well. When players get used to a certain "pace" of speed or movement, it feels bad when it is taken away. It feels like the game is being dumbed down, or as I said "Feels flat-footed". Now when you turn down the power creep with the numbers, this is different. But when you take away movement or speed or evasion, this typically yields negative reactions from player base in other games that I've seen. It's kind of like if you're used to racing on 150cc Mario Kart, but then 150cc was removed and now everyone can only race on 100cc. That's not like a feeling of balance, it's more of a feeling of being watered down. Designers need to be careful when they diminish mechanics tied to mobility/speed/evasion. I'm not saying that it's never a good idea, I'm just saying that it really needs to be dealt with carefully.

And upon all of this, you guys have got to understand that this is an MMORPG that is supposed to have diverse gear options. There will always be some particular sigil or rune, that happens to jive well on most classes, and lots of people are going to use it, if not due to sheer statistical value, it will be due to preference. Taking this trending approach of "Remove it from the game!" will inevitably result in some pattern like this:

• Sigils of Energy is removed from the game.
• Builds that once used Energy, start filling slots with Revocation or Annulment or maybe Absorption, if they already didn't have these sigils.
• Straight boon removal becomes the next universal option that just works well and most builds begin employing it in heavy doses.
• A new bandwagon begins because someone notices lots of builds are running these sigils. Remove it from the game!
• Boon removal sigils are removed from the game.
• The next best set of sigils are identified that work well in competitive modes. Some mixtures of Escape & Cleansing for defensive sides, and Intelligence & Courage for offensive sides.
• A bandwagon starts because well, I guess it's a fun thing to do. Remove those sigils from the game! Too many people are using them.
• So on and so forth until we have only the 4 bottom sigils left to choose from, things that most people don't ever touch now. And even then, players will evaluate the usage of those sigils and discover that 1 or 2 of them were clearly better options than the others.
• Now with much fewer sigils left, all classes/builds are even further pigeonholed into having to use the same sigils as everyone else, because there aren't any options left!

You are being extreme there. Yet paradoxal. You talk about build diversity around sigils yet you agree on the existence of sigil of energy as a must have sigil. Which totally prevents the other sigils to be chosen, which destroys the build diversity.

• No no no. I didn't say anything about Energy being "a must have sigil." It was the removal advocates who said that. I pointed out how if we were to remove it, players would identify the next new preferred sigil combo, and then everyone would start using that. And that this isn't necessarily because something is statistically overpowered or mandatory, but sometimes it's just a popular preference. And that if even those sigils were to be removed, the same thing would happen again when whatever sigils were left afterwards. You know, people claiming something is OP, because many builds use it. The point of this bullet list was not for the reader to look past the literal point made and attempt to dig up counter arguments based on what they want to see. It was to simply demonstrate how the "Remove it from the game!" mind frame, will never bring balance because of how player psychology works, and that it will only remove diversity from the game in the long run, which ultimately will narrow available choices, which mathematically will equate to more players using the same things, which is what the "Remove it from the game!" advocacy was trying to avoid to begin with. So incase you didn't notice the point made the first time around, "Remove it from the game!" mind frame, is actually completely counter productive, contrary to what it wanted to achieve. That's not being extreme. that's just me relaying my 24 years of experience playing various online games, and having seen what happens when different companies have tried different things over the years. And that definitely includes my almost 8 years of experience very specifically watching the historical causes & effects of patch changes in Guild Wars 2.

I feel like, the moral of the story is 2x things here:

1. In attempts to diversify build options by removing options from the game, it will indirectly pigeonhole everyone into a more narrow selection of options, that naturally will result in more players, more frequently, using the same options as other players because there aren't many other options, resulting in the problem of overused options actually becoming worse over time, the less options there are to chose from.
2. If you want better balance, balance something, don't remove it from the game unless it is absolutely necessary. This is because removing something from a game entirely, often comes with more balance issues in other places that are larger and more difficult to deal with, than the original problem to begin with. And no matter how many OP things you remove from the game, and no matter how good the balance actually is between different options, there will always be an option or two that players view as the best or better. This is just what happens, how it works, in every game of this genre before it, and it will be the same in every game after it.

Although I would agree with you, one important thing is missing from your moral:

If one build option is massively overused, there might be a good reason to tune it down, for the sake of build diversity.

And that's the case with sigil of agility and sigil of energy.

• Hey I'm not arguing with you at all on that.

• But what I am saying and have been saying about Agility and now Energy, is that "You cannot just sudden remove or greatly alter these two sigils right now." The current state of the game is not ready to receive such a rug being pulled out from under it. The consequences would come with larger problems than they would be fixing. If players seriously want these types of changes, they need to start thinking deeper and more realistically about the game engine, the intra-class dynamic, and realistic cause & effect. This way their suggestions can be a sound plan, rather than some potential hazard to the game dynamic.

[shadowpass.4236]

I hopped on for a

. I didn't even run signet of midnight or arcane thievery lol

Feedback + null field give all of your sword clones chaos armor when they sword ambush through the ethereal field. ie) every time someone hits you or your clones with CA, they'll hit themselves with a combination of weakness, confusion, and cripple.

https://imgur.com/a/q3Ty9E5

Any other mesmer builds you guys claim are weak?