Melech.4308 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Based on reading latest patch notes, I could not help but notice that it seems to be "feelings" based.Case in point: (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98085/upcoming-balance-notes)Guardian:"We've rolled the control effect into the skill itself and increased its casting time to ensure that it feels reasonable. "Mesmer:"Finally, we're changing the mirage's Elusive Mind trait to no longer break stuns as we feel that the necessity of including exhaustion as a balancing factor has made it too binary as a choice."Revenant:"In exchange, we've added a few new powerful traits with drawbacks as we feel this is in line with the spirit of Mallyx and skills like Pain Absorption."This made me curious and tried to look to the previous balance patches to attempt to determine what is considered 'fair' for devs; that is, what is the basis for nerfing or buffing a particular skill. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying they're misguided how to buff/nerf skills, but I wish devs would share what their guidelines are for buffing / nerfing skills during balance patch notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konrad Curze.5130 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Its hard to say without being inside their minds, but if we go by empirical evidence, when guardians are the absolute best at everything, they feel its fair, but when other profession is great at anything, they feel the unfairness and nerfs start piling up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulSin.5682 Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Mind me. This game can't really be placed in an excel table for balance changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melech.4308 Posted February 25, 2020 Author Share Posted February 25, 2020 @SoulSin.5682 said:Mind me. This game can't really be placed in an excel table for balance changes.I agree but I certainly don't think feelings is the right way to go either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobber.6348 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 They don't feel anything.They don't care about this game.This is just one of the random curveballs they throw every 6 months and decide what to nerf next.If they cared they would have talked to us more.Heck, they would have a Public Test Realm to draw feedback.Nope.They hide behind community managers, throw random balance changes, leave several bugs still in the game, go silent for another 6 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quaniesan.8497 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 They don't. It is all random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Issette.3248 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 In general it's not bad to trust your feelings when you have a lot of experience. But even then it helps a lot to use tables and and reference values (as they did with 2.0 and 0.01). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exalted Quality.8534 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 in general, they listen to what people are wingeing the most about on forums (squeaky wheel gets the grease). for this update, they went super lazy and just pained a broad stroke over anything that heals or ccs not considering how useless certain skills already were (did you really need to nerf renegade shortbow..smh)also, the fact that dh/fb doesn’t yet have a tradeoff is ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 26, 2020 Share Posted February 26, 2020 To be honest up till now i want to assume there probably was no real main factor they looked at what was over or under performing and tried to make it so that they could be either bought down or up while also keeping them strong in pve but now just recently anet chose to do pvp and pve splits which allows them to start making a standard.I would say this patch was not so much to balance but to get to a starting point where balance could be achieved in the future with ease. IT will also make getting data on things easier now that they for the most part dont need to consider how changing one skills damage or a traits effects could out right kill a profession in end game pve. Overall though its likely gonna be based on the percentage of players playing a certain build or profession. If after patch a bit shift to firebrand happens for example expect it to be culled down some to balance the spread back out. A large number of players believe it or not like to play flavor of the month or patch and just jump to what ever is the easiest thing to win with. I would also guess that was part of their balancing strat in the past. The game gets very boring once a certain percentage is just playing the same build on the same profession. Even more so when you have people demanding their hard counters be nerfed (and then anet actually nerfs them)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edu.6984 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 They probably gather data from pvp, wvw, spvp. Most used classes, builds, weapons, stats, combinations, skills, etc. Seems unreasonable that they would be taking directions without any metrics supporting. Saying "we feel ..." in patch notes is ok. We are not expecting them to write a thesis explaining the technical details that lead to the change.That said, not everything can be measured. They probably also account for players feedback, fun, etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 @"Melech.4308" said:Based on reading latest patch notes, I could not help but notice that it seems to be "feelings" based.Case in point: (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98085/upcoming-balance-notes)Guardian:"We've rolled the control effect into the skill itself and increased its casting time to ensure that it feels reasonable. "Mesmer:"Finally, we're changing the mirage's Elusive Mind trait to no longer break stuns as we feel that the necessity of including exhaustion as a balancing factor has made it too binary as a choice."Revenant:"In exchange, we've added a few new powerful traits with drawbacks as we feel this is in line with the spirit of Mallyx and skills like Pain Absorption."This made me curious and tried to look to the previous balance patches to attempt to determine what is considered 'fair' for devs; that is, what is the basis for nerfing or buffing a particular skill. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying they're misguided how to buff/nerf skills, but I wish devs would share what their guidelines are for buffing / nerfing skills during balance patch notes.It's not based on fairness ... and there isn't any reason anyone should think it ever was or will be. But it's not random either, like some people would like you to think. Based on observing the game and the language used when they release patches, I believe what they change and how much they change it is based simply on class theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepwalker.1398 Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 They skim thru the forums and see which class ppl whine about the most.They then go to the board and start throwing darts.I have a feeling either 1 of them has very good accuracy at hitting mesmer or mesmer covers most of the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerrule.8739 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 It’s partial experimentation based on feedback via the forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diak Atoli.2085 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 @Exalted Quality.8534 said:in general, they listen to what people are wingeing the most about on forums (squeaky wheel gets the grease). for this update, they went super lazy and just pained a broad stroke over anything that heals or ccs not considering how useless certain skills already were (did you really need to nerf renegade shortbow..smh)also, the fact that dh/fb doesn’t yet have a tradeoff is ludicrous.If it was based on the forums, every class would deal 10~ dps and have 50 health... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 a combination of AT representation, the obvious, forum complaints, their feels and bias, and whatever their internal testers tell them (if they even exist). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downstate.4697 Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 They made changes to necro fb and ranger in the last month based on forum complaints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moradorin.6217 Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 @Diak Atoli.2085 said:@Exalted Quality.8534 said:in general, they listen to what people are wingeing the most about on forums (squeaky wheel gets the grease). for this update, they went super lazy and just pained a broad stroke over anything that heals or ccs not considering how useless certain skills already were (did you really need to nerf renegade shortbow..smh)also, the fact that dh/fb doesn’t yet have a tradeoff is ludicrous.If it was based on the forums, every class would deal 10~ dps and have 50 health...No no, then everything WOULD be perfectly balanced! =) Really that's part of the issue. Perfect balance = zero diversityPractical applicable balance IMO means build diversity, class diversity and each class has an equally viable roll for each mode, but not always the same role. This IMO leads to certain classes always seeming OP to certain other classes while at the same time feeling under-powered vs certain other classes. Then if/when they balance based on bias feelings from people who don't like being countered or beaten or that each class even their has a weakness complaints sourced from this perspective it seems easy to imagine how they could end up making so many apparent mistakes with balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 that's not the only issue. Sure you got class mechanics, but also different armor and traits and some classes have it easier reaching the ideal position for their builds while other classes don't get enough from traits and have to get their stats from somewhereelse. For condi for example. If you got trailblazer's with tempest runes on a rev. it is gonna have 100% condi duration. but for ele you won't be able to reach the 100% unless you eat buff food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug.4930 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 @FrownyClown.8402 said:They made changes to necro fb and ranger in the last month based on forum complaints. I'm not sure about that.Personally I think a lot of it would be metric based. The more powerful a class/build is the more people would be playing it. For instance, FB and Scourge dominated WvW. Easily 75% of the player base were running either a FB or a scourge. Whilst Specific builds like boon Holosmith dominated small scale/roaming.Forums are a good place for discussion but the majority of those discussion are feelings based. I hate this part of the game so its toxic. I hate mesmer clone spam, I hate stealth, I hate passive invulns, I hate condi spam etc etc. But if the numbers aren't there to support those complaints then Its best to just ignore them. There's often a huge divide between what people hate fighting, and whats actually overpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 @Doug.4930 said:@"FrownyClown.8402" said:They made changes to necro fb and ranger in the last month based on forum complaints. I'm not sure about that.Personally I think a lot of it would be metric based. The more powerful a class/build is the more people would be playing it. For instance, FB and Scourge dominated WvW. Easily 75% of the player base were running either a FB or a scourge. Whilst Specific builds like boon Holosmith dominated small scale/roaming.Forums are a good place for discussion but the majority of those discussion are feelings based. I hate this part of the game so its toxic. I hate mesmer clone spam, I hate stealth, I hate passive invulns, I hate condi spam etc etc. But if the numbers aren't there to support those complaints then Its best to just ignore them. There's often a huge divide between what people hate fighting, and whats actually overpowered. True, people that claim nerfs are just based on the forum seem to intentionally(?) disregard the fact that the boards are consistently "carpet bombed" by complaints. The moment something mentioned on the boards gets addressed, they're automatically claiming "anet blindly follows the forums". But the fact that 20 other complaints/changes were not impletemented? Naaah, that means nothing.I think that claim is simply insane and with the amount of data available to the devs it's highly improbable they just follow their (or the forum users') "feelings". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantasylife.7981 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 devs only care for high condition damage, power damange got insanely nerf in pvp, while condition damage remain almost untouch. big yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug.4930 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 @Fantasylife.7981 said:devs only care for high condition damage, power damange got insanely nerf in pvp, while condition damage remain almost untouch. big yikes.aCondi dmg does need toning down for sure, but lets be fair here, power was insane before the patch. Game is far more balanced post patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lare.5129 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 how it do? take "why not", add "it can be fun", also not forget part "is it something new" and you got recipe to any balance patch.Take it as weather, ans season change .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinker.6924 Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 @"Melech.4308" said:Based on reading latest patch notes, I could not help but notice that it seems to be "feelings" based.The language is intended to hide the actual decision making process and shutdown debate. They use "feelings" because you can't argue with "feelings". You can try but it becomes a very short argument. No one can say "your feelings are wrong" because everyone knows that feelings are always wrong and right at the same time and subject to change, without notice.Now if they said, "according to our metrics" (or philosophy or whatever thing of substance) the debate gets extended to the additional thing. And worse the next time a nerf or tweak of any kind is done in the future, the spectre of those previously mentioned metrics/philosophy/whatever will get reintroduced into the debate. And if Anet says that changed the metrics/philosophy/whatever then that reasoning gets debated too!The person who crafted those patch notes had language Kung Fu that is very good. Yours... you barely are a grasshopper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily.1935 Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 No idea. Seems random at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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