Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw?

[RlyOsim.2497]

Title.

Also, for discussion, acceptable?

[God.2708]

No. At least not in the way Anet does them.

They can be a form of content, for some, if the balance patch forces a re-look at class dynamics and fight approaches. But, balance patches do not really bring in new players, bring people back, or give players anything new to do.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Balance patches are the refreshments, rewards shall be the content (whatever they may be as in the fun of playing, actual reward rewards, etc) :DHowever, I could see how one would perceive balance patches as "content", especially if they enjoy multiclassing, theorycrafting, and using every class, every possible power/hybrid/condi build, every weaponset, every rune and sigil, etc. I do somewhat fall in that category.So all in all I'd say balance patches are considered by some players (maybe only a meager few) as content, whilst the majority of others will consider it an autonomous part of WvW and not actual content.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1000% yes.

Lets look at dragonbash. Thats like 15min of content each day for the daily.

Just the QQ after a patch alone is more entertaining for me.

Add Buildcrafting, new enemy builds to fight, discussion etc.

[Sovereign.1093]

No. :3 nerfs and buffs simply makes us adjust to a new meta. Else, things would be so stale. But new content = new mechanics

[lodjur.1284]

Yes, you're correct. WvW doesn't need more "content" in the traditional way. It needs a lot of things, but new keeps, new siege or w/e is not what it needs.

Alliances wouldn't be any more or less content than balance patches fyi.

New balance patches are basically small content patches.

New elite specs are big content patches.

[LetoII.3782]

They're the content becaus it's that or nothing

[Baldrick.8967]

No. Balance patches are attempts at fixing problems in current content.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

Balance patches are just proof that the balance team is doing something. Not good things most of the time, but something.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

at a glance, yes. in practice, no.

[vier.1327]

And the mounts, and also the repair hammer and the portable cannons...

And who can forget..... Yeah baby, you know what is coming.

Just a little more...

Almost there

WvW Alliances.

[hunkamania.7561]

They're just cleaning up their own mess with these things it's not content but they got a long ways to go. It's not enough

[McPero.3287]

Balance patches are content for WvW and PvP when they improve the balance. If you are a true PvP/WvW player you don't care about new Warclaw skin, new siege weapons, that a tree is of different colour now.

[subversiontwo.7501]

No, balance patches are not content, they are balance. It's in the name.

Nore are they development, they are maintenence. That's an even more important observation relative this thread topic.

Balance passes is something you should expect after new content (like new classes) that affects balance.

Content in PvP modes involves things like abilities, maps and most importantly but often overlooked: rulesets.

Let's say you made a GvG map, then making the map is rather simple as you only need a realtively small flat surface, there may be specific abilities added like something like the Aurene skills in the stories, then that's an ability that changes how something plays, but everything else is governed by rules in a ruleset. Who gets to be there? How do you win? How, where, when do things start and stop? Look at Conquest (sPvP), what is it? Well, it's a queued 5v5 CTF mode in a race towards a point total awarded by set capture points (often in an uneven numbered home + contested setup), kills and spawn bonuses. No matter how maps change, those are the core rules. A TDM mode, a Moba, a full sandbox (like EVE; which can have perpetual or seasonal resetting variations) or attack/defend modes (like CS or WoT's frontline) has different rules etc.

With that in mind: Alliances is content (even linking is content, just not very sustainable content), changing scoring is content (so skirmishes was content but rather toothless content), even Stronghold, EotM and DBL was content (just not very good or appreciated content), 2v2's and Swiss was content and the 20v20 stuff worked on is content and so on. The ticket and track systems was content, one of the few universally appreacited content updates.

[Blocki.4931]

They ARE the content, but that doesn't mean the foundation of a mode should remain unchanged forever. Adjustments to map or mechanics should happen somewhat regularly, honestly I'd say every 6 months would be fine if they happened at all. Stuff like changing some terrain around for example. Giving an objective multiple capture points or something.

[Henry.5713]

The balance patch is our content. The whining on the forums is their content.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"Henry.5713" said:The balance patch is our content. The whining on the forums is their content.The funny thing is, the official forums (ed. the WvW subforum i mean) these days are probably smaller than, say, the GotM discord.The people who post with somewhat regularity is down to something as low as 20-30 players or something. There's 7-8 of them in this thread.The people who read, lurk or contribute on and off is likely to be larger but not enough to suggest more activity between discussion posted and read.The only value this forum has left is that it is a forum so comments are better saved and found and it still is "official" even with Reddit's dominance.

[Custodio.6134]

Is it fair to say the balance patches are the 'content' for wvw?

Absolutely no. Balancing in a competetive game/mode is mandatory for healthy gameplay. Content is anything that goes beyond what is absolutely necessary.For example: no downstate-event or call of war could be considered "content", although it is still basically nothing compared to what is considered "content" in PvE.The problem is: how do you even want to create more content for a game mode, that is focused on competetive play?

Let´s move away from Guild Wars 2 a bit, comparing on how other games deliver content. Let´s just take League of Legends as an example. A new champion released is kind of content, that also will result in a change of game balance and meta. But the "normal" game mode itself (5v5´s on Summoners Rift or ARAM´s) doesnt change. But this game uses rotating game modes and usually missions related to them or new champion releases to create content. They frequently add (or at least re-use rebalanced) new game-modes with new interpretations of the game mechanics. For example, currently Nexus Blitz is live on the servers, that is basically an altered map based on the removed 3v3-map, using new mechanics (double Junglers) alongside of old known stuff or things that got removed in the past (old items basically). Within this game mode, they also introduced new mechanics to the gameplay (different events happening on the map, with the outcome changing advantages for the winning team either temporary or permanently). THIS is content.

Here comes the problem: how do you want to do something similar in Guild Wars 2 WvW? You can´t just adapt the way content gets delivered in other games, because GW2-WvW works totally different.

Now, my opinion on that: I don´t really think WvW needs more content in its current state. There are bigger issues to address:Server stabilityClient stabilityBalancing (both, player population and classes)short- and long-term rewards, that are heavily focused on WvWjust to name a few

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

There is a scale with two plates having one pile of pebbles on each. One side is lower than the other. You remove a pebble from the lower side, and add it to the higher plate. The scale shifts, and both plates are now closer to the same elevation.

Did you increase the total amount of pebbles on the scale?

D:

[Overgeared.2439]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:There is a scale with two plates having one pile of pebbles on each. One side is lower than the other. You remove a pebble from the lower side, and add it to the higher plate. The scale shifts, and both plates are now closer to the same elevation.

Did you increase the total amount of pebbles on the scale?

D:

Yes. I changed the plate with a coconut.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Since this thread got bumped now, reading back on what was said and how the questions were phrased you could also say that ArenaNet may hope for the new balance initiative to be the "content" WvW gets until Alliances can ship. That is very possible and a way to interprete the question even if I won't take back the more theoretical stuff I mentioned before in this thread.

It's still not acceptable or healthy though and may not be sufficient to keep things afloat should Alliances continue to drag on further with little to nothing else in the pipeline. However could we say that it is so now, because ArenaNet treats it as such? That balance is the only attention to expect? Very possibly.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Yes. The patches change combat and open build diversity to create new combat experiences.Combat experiences and replayability through diversity are the only reason people play PvP games in general, as those encounters are the intended content.So balance creates content with the changes it introduces, like any other game.

The issue is the content quality and availability of a healthy metagame allowing the continuous enabling of new player-driven content through builds and diversity is at the mercy of the game being balanced and having efforts being made against it. If there's imbalance and stagnation, that diversity dies and there's subsequently no real new content to be had because fights essentially stay the same for months (or years) on end with ANet's balancing cadence.

[Blackarps.1974]

No. Content is considered something new being created and added to the game. Balance is just adjusting the way the game is already played.

[Obtena.7952]

I think that's a pretty reasonable way to look at it. After all, balance patches DO affect how people play and experience different aspects of WvW. If that's not JUST as effective to hold the interest of players as new maps, etc ... then that appetite for content can't satiated anyways.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Best "content" is when a balance patch is applied to pvp only and WvW players are left scratching their heads.