The "Dynamic level scaling" is a joke!

[frareanselm.1925]

I'm leveling a guardian and decided to get a bunch of experience points by doing the twilight arbor dungeon.I'm level 57 with green gear with no trinkets, and in the group there was another like me, a newbie 59 warrior with green gear.The rest of players werer reves and a daredevil, all of them grown, with tons of dominion points and good gear (exotic or ascended).I had the arcdps on, and the warrior and me were who made more Dps even with bad cheap gear!!Also in most bosses most of the players got downed, yes a herald downed in multiple bosses. I had to solo one boss with green gear because the other mates were downed or dead!It was humiliating for them. And for me overwhelming to carry them, while I didnt wear jewelry.

Theres something wrong in scaling, because 80 chars with top gear should perform way better than low levels.

[Tiilimon.6094]

You just met some very bad players, gear and levels don't mean much without skills to utilize them.__It's common for me to outdps some folks in fractals as well and I'm only wearing healing power, concentration and toughness gear and playing the support bot, but still it happens way too often xD

[anduriell.6280]

@frareanselm.1925 said:I'm leveling a guardian and decided to get a bunch of experience points by doing the twilight arbor dungeon.I'm level 57 with green gear with no trinkets, and in the group there was another like me, a newbie 59 warrior with green gear.The rest of players werer reves and a daredevil, all of them grown, with tons of dominion points and good gear (exotic or ascended).I had the arcdps on, and the warrior and me were who made more Dps even with bad cheap gear!!Also in most bosses most of the players got downed, yes a herald downed in multiple bosses. I had to solo one boss with green gear because the other mates were downed or dead!It was humiliating for them. And for me overwhelming to carry them, while I didnt wear jewelry.

Theres something wrong in scaling, because 80 chars with top gear should perform way better than low levels.

That's the definition of scaling what you saw is what is supposed to happen.Other than that you were playing with bots and carrying those bots.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

In this game, skill matter more than gear (even if it's better to aim for better gear for end-game content).

People with max level can perform poorly due to a lot of reasons (personal skill, random build, bad understanding of meca, just auto-attack, others...).

[Randulf.7614]

This has zero to do with scaling. It’s related to player skill and builds. Scaling is working correctly

[Danikat.8537]

I agree with everyone else. This isn't a game where you can simply grind out levels and gear and expect it to carry you through any content in the game and anyone who tries to take that approach is in for a nasty surprise sooner or later (usually, but not always, when they attempt expansion content).

Also to highlight one specific point you raised - you mentioned they had "tons of dominion points". I assume you mean mastery points (the gold number that replaces a players level once they get to level 80, if they have HoT or PoF and start earning mastery points). Those do absolutely nothing to make your character stronger. All masteries unlock specific abilities and the vast majority of those are non-combat. For example all PoF masteries are mount related - they give your mounts new abilities or enhance the ones they already have but aside from the one engage skill those make no different at all in combat, so if you were to compare a brand new level 80 to one with an identical build and gear who had all the PoF masteries fully trained their skills and stats would be identical.

All of this (especially the mastery points not helping in combat) is by design. GW2 was always intended to have very little vertical progression so it's relatively easy to get a character who is as powerful as they can possibly be and after that (or even before, if you want to) the focus is on horizontal progression. That can mean everything from getting masteries which give you new options but usually don't help in combat to getting new skins to make your character look the way you want or experimenting with different builds and learning how to play them so you do get better at the game, but because of your skill as a player rather than your stats. Level scaling does tie into that, in that it helps ensure you never out-level parts of the world and the entire game is always open to you, but it's not directly related and certainly not the reason there's huge variation between ability in level 80 players.

(Finally, in future if you find yourself in a similar situation rather than simply assuming it must be humiliating for your team mates it would be very nice if you could give them some feedback so they can learn from the experience. A lot of players do get confused by this system because they expect GW2 to be just like whatever MMO they played last, including assuming that a level 80 character in a low level area will not need to put any effort into combat. Or they may have levelled by grinding XP somewhere or using a boost and never actually learned how to play their character in the first place. A few tips from someone with a better understanding of the combat system can make a huge difference, and has the added benefit for you that you get a better experience playing with those people because instead of having to suffer through carrying them you can teach them to play well alongside you.)

[frareanselm.1925]

@Randulf.7614 said:This has zero to do with scaling. It’s related to player skill and builds. Scaling is working correctly

Build? The 3rd traitline unlocks at 71 this means I was playing with just 2 traitlines and without trinkets. The next time I'll go nude just with a greatsword, if I do the same or more damage than my mates they should go mad or unistall the game. This is not right.

[Danikat.8537]

Once again: the number of skills, traits, levels, attribute points etc. you have is not the deciding factor in how your character performs. It helps, but it's not as simple as higher levels and better gear mean you'll win. What is important is what you do with them: choosing skills, traits and attributes that work well together, understanding how they work and how to use them effectively, and how to use universal tools like dodging.

For example if you take a traitline which gives lots of extra effects on critical hits, then use equipment with no precision so you very rarely get critical hits you may as well not have those traits because they are doing nothing. Similarly if someone has a full set of ascended equipment with Dire stats (condition damage, toughness and vitality) but is using weapons and skills that don't cause conditions they will actually do less damage than someone with lower tier equipment that has stats which match their build. They could literally run naked and their damage would be the same because their equipment is contributing nothing to it. (But they would die a lot quicker, because they would lose a lot of armour and health by not having the toughness and vitality.)

Of course we don't know what the other players in your group were using, so it's impossible to say exactly why they were doing less damage than you. But even so I think it's well worth taking the time to understand how builds and stats work in this game or sooner or later you're going to run into the same problem if you get to level 80 and expect your level and gear to carry you just because it's the top tier available.

[Naxos.2503]

Alternatively, if those players were like me, they potentially pulled their punches to avoid ruining the experience. Level 80s decked in exotic/ascended can two man such dungeons.

It isn't uncommon for me to use a support only character that mostly heals and buff, or focuses on CC to let the younger ones be the heroes. It isn't leeching, as it requires a lot of attention Not to roll over dungeon content with a finished character. It would be nefarious if that caused you to fail the dungeon, but from what you're saying, that wasn't the case.

Did they use mostly normal attacks ? A lot of crowd control but stayed relatively far back ?

[AliamRationem.5172]

That's just how this game is. You can't outgear challenges, but with no trinity in place it's possible for a skilled player to solo challenges that wipe groups of less-skilled players. This includes soloing entire dungeons, fractals, legendary open world bosses, etc. There are even videos of players soloing T4 fractal challenge mode bosses.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

@frareanselm.1925 said:Build? The 3rd traitline unlocks at 71 this means I was playing with just 2 traitlines and without trinkets. The next time I'll go nude just with a greatsword, if I do the same or more damage than my mates they should go mad or unistall the game. This is not right.

Lowlevel Dungeon. The fact that you actually ran ArcDPS in a place like that is just ridiculous.Try Fractals and Raids, especially the LFGs which contain LI and KP. There you meet people of your required level of skill and experience. Dungeons are still free-for-all. You can meet farmers, newbies, veterans and even people who try out a new class/build. You are also free to open your own Dungeon party with your own LFG requirements. No one forces you to join a random group.

[Khisanth.2948]

What you saw was just the massive spread in player skill that exist. Maybe you can appreciate the challenge the developers have to face when making content. They have to make stuff that can be done by people like the ones you played with but also remain relevant for people who could have solo'ed it in their sleep.

@Danikat.8537 said:Of course we don't know what the other players in your group were using, so it's impossible to say exactly why they were doing less damage than you.

Since OP is using arc that shouldn't actually be all that difficult to determine. For example you can see what they were using to deal their damage and what they were being hit by.

@HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

@frareanselm.1925 said:Build? The 3rd traitline unlocks at 71 this means I was playing with just 2 traitlines and without trinkets. The next time I'll go nude just with a greatsword, if I do the same or more damage than my mates they should go mad or unistall the game. This is not right.

Lowlevel Dungeon. The fact that you actually ran ArcDPS in a place like that is just ridiculous.Try Fractals and Raids, especially the LFGs which contain LI and KP. There you meet people of your required level of skill and experience. Dungeons are still free-for-all. You can meet farmers, newbies, veterans and even people who try out a new class/build. You are also free to open your own Dungeon party with your own LFG requirements. No one forces you to join a random group.

Uh ... people who use arc is just going to leave it on. I don't think anyone bothers to turn it on an off depending on content. That is just a waste of time.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

players with the correct gear and knows how to do rotations do 10X the damage of average players.

[sorudo.9054]

i know ill not be top DPS but i can do better DPS, notice the better instead of more?

[Linken.6345]

@sorudo.9054 said:i know ill not be top DPS but i can do better DPS, notice the better instead of more?

Better then what?If your better then the banner warrior your ok.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Linken.6345 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:i know ill not be top DPS but i can do better DPS, notice the better instead of more?

Better then what?If your better then the banner warrior your ok.

but not if the healer has higher DPS than you ...

although sometimes as a group is it better to go a bit theorectically lower DPS

the groups that wants to do Cold War with less healing seems to take longer on average

[Skotlex.7580]

I totally expected this thread to state the opposite: level scaling is a joke because 80/fully decked characters just faceroll through lower level content. Dungeons, when it's daily time (only time I do them, with a "all welcome" lfg post), are awfully easy, when they used to pose a challenge.

At lower level maps, stuff dies so fast that it's really apparent the scaling down is not aggressive enough.

I am somewhat relieved to hear there's at least one experience out there where a lower level character doesn't feel that outclassed by the level 80 party.

If you want the other side of the coin, why not try upscaled content and see how you deck up against the rest (go with your level 60 to tier 1 fractals and see how you do when upscaled in max level content).

Perhaps scaling needs some further tuning, but in my experience that means more aggressive downscaling, the opposite of what op states.

[Zzik.5873]

Its a dungeon, not everybody go in try hard mode in dungeon. XD

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Skotlex.7580" said:I totally expected this thread to state the opposite: level scaling is a joke because 80/fully decked characters just faceroll through lower level content. Dungeons, when it's daily time (only time I do them, with a "all welcome" lfg post), are awfully easy, when they used to pose a challenge.

At lower level maps, stuff dies so fast that it's really apparent the scaling down is not aggressive enough.

I am somewhat relieved to hear there's at least one experience out there where a lower level character doesn't feel that outclassed by the level 80 party.

If you want the other side of the coin, why not try upscaled content and see how you deck up against the rest (go with your level 60 to tier 1 fractals and see how you do when upscaled in max level content).

Perhaps scaling needs some further tuning, but in my experience that means more aggressive downscaling, the opposite of what op states.

I guess you missed the previous thread of the person complaining that they couldn't survive in Queensdale using ascended gear.

[Obtena.7952]

@frareanselm.1925 said:I'm leveling a guardian and decided to get a bunch of experience points by doing the twilight arbor dungeon.I'm level 57 with green gear with no trinkets, and in the group there was another like me, a newbie 59 warrior with green gear.The rest of players werer reves and a daredevil, all of them grown, with tons of dominion points and good gear (exotic or ascended).I had the arcdps on, and the warrior and me were who made more Dps even with bad cheap gear!!Also in most bosses most of the players got downed, yes a herald downed in multiple bosses. I had to solo one boss with green gear because the other mates were downed or dead!It was humiliating for them. And for me overwhelming to carry them, while I didnt wear jewelry.

Theres something wrong in scaling, because 80 chars with top gear should perform way better than low levels.

Interesting ... I love how you completely ignored the primary thing that determines a player's performance ... HINT it's not their level or gear. I also love how your assessment leads you to conclude scaling is bad. I also love how you proceed to argue with every single person that tells you these things because you think you know better than all of them.

Scaling is bad? Not sure ... but if it is, your example is not evidence of that.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its hard to say what the cause is, but keep in mind if this was a PUG group its usually policy of high level, well-geared and experienced players to not go "all-in" because then the newbies have a hard time getting credit. Raid DPS can clear dungeon bosses in seconds, and its not uncommon for just a few players like this to solo or two-man these dungeons (except for ones which block progress, like CoF).

People usually join PUG groups with the intention of helping, not of getting rewards. That's easier in Fractals etc. And if they're going for dungeon tokens they'll just party up with a guildmate instead of bothering with a group.

If anything downscaling makes you too powerful, so I still wouldn't call it "working as intended".

[Treacy.4067]

@frareanselm.1925 said:The rest of players werer reves and a daredevil, all of them grown, with tons of dominion points and good gear (exotic or ascended).

How do you know what gear they have or care? It's a dungeon not a raid. Also, ArcDPS doesn't give the full story with regards to party contribution both in terms of dps, healing, CC, etc. Maybe you're not aware of that. If anything you're proving that scaling works. Ultimately though, this isn't about scaling. This game has more of an emphasis on skills and ability rather than gear. I wouldn't be surprised if they were taking it easy so as not to faceroll and ruin the experience for you new players. For you to be upset by this, sounds like maybe you're the one that wanted the carry because apparently your run wasn't fast enough.