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Are grenades ever going to be toned down?


mrauls.6519

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Just letting you guys know, Core Engi can roll around with 25 might, Berserker amulet and get big Grenade Barrages. The reason why its not good is because you are utter food, food without Heat Therapy, Prismatic Converter, Holo Leap & Superspeed. Holo is like a high damage core build with added survivability :joy:

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@Chaith.8256 said:Just letting you guys know, Core Engi can roll around with 25 might, Berserker amulet and get big Grenade Barrages. The reason why its not good is because you are utter food, food without Heat Therapy, Prismatic Converter, Holo Leap & Superspeed. Holo is like a high damage core build with added survivability :joy:

Scrapper can do hella damage too and has just as much sustain. I think people just run it less because it requires a little bit more skill than popping photon forge, spamming every ability, popping some elixirs, and tossing grenades in between dodges.

If Holo wasn't the easier route for the same damage, I'm sure we'd see more scrappers rolling grenades.

But you're right. If they buff something to make core engi better, Holo is going to abuse it tenfold because Holo is the problem. It seems like it's always the first two traits that are taken, prismatic converter and barrier every meta.

Admittedly I don't play engi that much, but it feels like those have been the consistent choices.

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@Chaith.8256 said:Just letting you guys know, Core Engi can roll around with 25 might, Berserker amulet and get big Grenade Barrages. The reason why its not good is because you are utter food, food without Heat Therapy, Prismatic Converter, Holo Leap & Superspeed. Holo is like a high damage core build with added survivability :joy:

and holo will deal more dmg with barrage due to lasers edge, while remaining tanky as one heall AND having other different hard hitters like corona or sword skills

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@zoopop.5630 said:so ahhhh Forum Mods and Devs are 100% active they just refuse to say a single thing about whats going on or what they got plan @"mes.4607" . Alt account got banned asap after yesterday lmfaoooo so yea :) it's just radio silence for another 3-6 months !

devs and mods are 2 very different things

both work for the company and both have power in the forums. If their able to delete and clean up anything that seems to point them in the wrong outlook to the public they'll get that done asap but wont respond to anyone post or make a single mention about anything.

To me personally it isn't two "different" things. Clearly their lurking around and reading up on stuff but refuse to respond to anything. It's called Lack of communication and Lack of being held accountable for being MIA.

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@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Glad at least a few people get it.

If a build is overperforming, you determine the root of the issue. Nades are not overperforming. Nades are the hardest hitting component of an over performing build.Nerf Holo's might gen and/or damage multipliers and you nerf their nade dps.

Nades will continue to be balanced on both Core and Scrapper.

Nerf nades and you leave the core issue behind. Holo will most likely find some other way (prybar) to melt your face off.

You do realize more than one thing can be overperforming at once, right? Just because something is core and not on an elite doesn't mean it can't be too strong, I'm sick of seeing this defense. The moment someone says something is strong that isn't on an elite spec, people freak out because omg leave core alone when sometimes something in the core class is still too strong, it being made much worse by another overperforming thing like an elite just compounds it.

By what metric would you determine whether both factors (in this instance nades AND holo) are overperforming and not one factor?

We can toss around blanket statements all day, but when it comes to balance, we need data. What the data shows is that neither core or scrapper are overperforming with nades. In fact, i'd say that core engi is currently underperforming even with nades. It simply lacks the mobility, damage modifiers, boons, and defensive utility that holosmith provides.

What we've done here is identified a problem. Asked ourselves which factor or factors the problem stems from. We've removed one of the factors (Holosmith) to determine how the other (grenades) performs on it's own. What we see is that grenades do not overperform. Grenades are getting buffed by holo's might gen and damage modifiers. Running grenades in a utility slot comes with the trade-off of giving up cleanses and stunbreaks. Holosmith has the tools to offset that weakness. Core does not.

In summary. Core does less damage than holo with grenades because it does not generate might as efficiently and lacks lazer's edge. Core does not have the defensive tools to manage the defensive trade-off of running nades. Even if they were a bit strong damage wise, there would be a healthy dynamic here. Core engi lacks defense and has to build for it, giving up a utility slot purely for dps means that core engi has to give up something valuable to access that damage.

Nades are fine.`

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@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Glad at least a few people get it.

If a build is overperforming, you determine the root of the issue. Nades are not overperforming. Nades are the hardest hitting component of an over performing build.Nerf Holo's might gen and/or damage multipliers and you nerf their nade dps.

Nades will continue to be balanced on both Core and Scrapper.

Nerf nades and you leave the core issue behind. Holo will most likely find some other way (prybar) to melt your face off.

You do realize more than one thing can be overperforming at once, right? Just because something is core and not on an elite doesn't mean it can't be too strong, I'm sick of seeing this defense. The moment someone says something is strong that isn't on an elite spec, people freak out because omg leave core alone when sometimes something in the core class is still too strong, it being made much worse by another overperforming thing like an elite just compounds it.

Yeah, that could be correct, but if you read through this thread, it is filled with people who figured out what the problem is: permanent high might, good mobility, and increased sustain, all coming from holo. Nerfing nade again would simply treat the symptoms, but not dealing with the cause of the problem. But I assume that isn't convincing enough, so I invite you to a little brainstorming, what happens if nade gets destroyed, but the core issue remains:

Granade gets nerfed even more, so holos will just drop it, in favor of something better. Toolkit has CC, block, and a skill with a really high coeff. Holos will jump on it, then threads appear, saying: OMG, this spec has double block on low CD, and hits like a truck. So Toolkits get nerfed. Then people realise that there are still stuff around, like Acid Bomb... sure, it is hard to hit with, but you can just put it on the point... the kit also includes small healing, condi cleanse, weakness, swiftness, stunbreak... so Elixir Gun gets nerfed...In the end, you nerfed everything that holo has access to, so they'll just use their forge AA and sword AA to deal damage, they might have became balanced in the process... in the meantime core becomes unplayable, Scrapper will have to rely on hammer and wells, since core didn't have access to those, those won't be nerfed.

Or you could bring the Holosmith traitline down to an avarage Engineer traitlines level, and you get something that plays different from a core engi, but isn't good in everything. This could be achieved in a lot of ways:

  • Holo Leap is still on 2 seconds cooldown, despite a lot of people asking for nerfs to it.
  • Prismatic Converter is the best condi cleansing trait the whole Engineer profession has access to. On a "high risk, high reward" spec
  • Heat Therapy still exists, if the sustain is high, you can hit it again.
  • Constant high might coming from HGH+Corona Burst+Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit. Although once you nerf sustain, the spec might become truly high risk-high reward, so you might want to keep its damage output.
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Anet needs to finally update holographic shockwave a bit - it still has the 'always crits' tag. They could easily move the vuln stacks from corona burst to HS - 19 vuln stacks from one skill that also gives might is possibly a bit overboard. Moving them to HS would retain some of the power while cutting down on the...mindlessness of it and rewarding landing the CC.

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@Curennos.9307 said:Anet needs to finally update holographic shockwave a bit - it still has the 'always crits' tag. They could easily move the vuln stacks from corona burst to HS - 19 vuln stacks from one skill that also gives might is possibly a bit overboard. Moving them to HS would retain some of the power while cutting down on the...mindlessness of it and rewarding landing the CC.

what do you meanlow cd pulsing aoethat has insane dmgmighthealbarriervulnerabilityis fine

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Grenade barrage got a nerf which was the main op skill. The problem is that holo can effortlessly still get 20-25 might, which makes every one of their skills capable of dealing significant damage. But what am I saying, obviously passive 25 might is working as intended. If it wasnt it would have been fixed by now.

I take back what i said, nades are dumb.

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Holo needs a massive Nerf. Corona bursts hitting for 4k crits on my ele with base toughness when it has a CD of 6 secs??? I need to pick up a berserkers amulet on an ele which leaves me at laugable 11k HP to deal similar amounts of damage! Holosmith does that with more sustain and on easier CDs. Like.. Lightning whips range was reduced for God knows what reason. Why are Holo skills still running around with massive range? Is it fair that greatswords (GREATSWORDS. GIANT ASS POLE LIKE SIZED WEAPONS) have smaller range and clunkier hitboxes than holosmith weapons when the holo is running a sword shield??????? Warrior Greatsword has a pisspoor range of 130 while a Holo on sword/shield goes holo mode and BAM baby, 240 range on autos. Its not just Holo traits alone. Its the synergy with explosive entrance. Fresh Air weavers were nerfed into oblivion and is borderline unplayable. Holos are hitting the same levels of bursts with more tanky builds, free blinds, survival to boot and all they got was a minor nerf on grenades when its the overwhelming synergy between explosions and holosmith traits that are to blame. Like, please explain to me how Elementalists get a cooldown of 8 secs on the blind they inflict with burning on a Fire grandmaster, but Explosive entrance blinds can be chained with dodges, not to mention the daze over 90% health? Some classes do get better treatment. Things are not balanced.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Nades are fine. Holo needs to be toned down.

Idk, grenade barrage seems to murder health bars on every spec, not just Holo.

Grenade barrage is one of engineer's hardest hitting skills, of course it will deal a good burst of damage.But in PvP, the total power scaling of the ability
if
all grenades hit is 2,4. Before the last patch, it hit for 3,0, they nerfed the damage of the ability by 20% already.

How much more do you want it to get nerfed exactly? Grenade barrage is supposed to be one of engineer's burstier skills, considering that it does nothing else but damage.

High heat Sword 2? Holo 1234? Rampage 13? Oh and there are other grenade skills.... You have many burst skills, so each of them should be tuned down.

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Holo damage is really good. I hate being caught in roads against them, but if they don’t get the kill on node and you are playing well- they will be forced off node to resustain or die. It’s just they do so much so fast that many don’t see them forced off node as much as they should be

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@Crozame.4098 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Nades are fine. Holo needs to be toned down.

Idk, grenade barrage seems to murder health bars on every spec, not just Holo.

Grenade barrage is one of engineer's hardest hitting skills, of course it will deal a good burst of damage.But in PvP, the total power scaling of the ability
if
all grenades hit is 2,4. Before the last patch, it hit for 3,0, they nerfed the damage of the ability by 20% already.

How much more do you want it to get nerfed exactly? Grenade barrage is supposed to be one of engineer's burstier skills, considering that it does nothing else but damage.

High heat Sword 2? Holo 1234? Rampage 13? Oh and there are other grenade skills.... You have many burst skills, so each of them should be tuned down.

None of those are burst (and Holo 4 is outright bad).

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Nades are fine. Holo needs to be toned down.

Idk, grenade barrage seems to murder health bars on every spec, not just Holo.

Grenade barrage is one of engineer's hardest hitting skills, of course it will deal a good burst of damage.But in PvP, the total power scaling of the ability
if
all grenades hit is 2,4. Before the last patch, it hit for 3,0, they nerfed the damage of the ability by 20% already.

How much more do you want it to get nerfed exactly? Grenade barrage is supposed to be one of engineer's burstier skills, considering that it does nothing else but damage.

High heat Sword 2? Holo 1234? Rampage 13? Oh and there are other grenade skills.... You have many burst skills, so each of them should be tuned down.

None of those are burst (and Holo 4 is outright
bad
).

all of them are burst tho..that's why super speed is now meta instead of barrier, because holo will constantly bursting you and he will kill you before his sustain runs out.specially paired with explosive entrance

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In my opinion, one of the biggest issues with holosmith right now is actually the access to basically limitless superspeed. I think it would be a positive change if the trait that granted superspeed on holo leap only granted it if you land an attack. Similarly, sword 3 should only grant quickness if it lands.

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@Solaerin.8635 said:In my opinion, one of the biggest issues with holosmith right now is actually the access to basically limitless superspeed. I think it would be a positive change if the trait that granted superspeed on holo leap only granted it if you land an attack. Similarly, sword 3 should only grant quickness if it lands.

Even a ride the lightning treatment on holo leap would still make it good :/

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Nades are fine. Holo needs to be toned down.

Idk, grenade barrage seems to murder health bars on every spec, not just Holo.

Grenade barrage is one of engineer's hardest hitting skills, of course it will deal a good burst of damage.But in PvP, the total power scaling of the ability
if
all grenades hit is 2,4. Before the last patch, it hit for 3,0, they nerfed the damage of the ability by 20% already.

How much more do you want it to get nerfed exactly? Grenade barrage is supposed to be one of engineer's burstier skills, considering that it does nothing else but damage.

High heat Sword 2? Holo 1234? Rampage 13? Oh and there are other grenade skills.... You have many burst skills, so each of them should be tuned down.

None of those are burst (and Holo 4 is outright
bad
).

None of those are burst. LMAO

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@felix.2386 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Nades are fine. Holo needs to be toned down.

Idk, grenade barrage seems to murder health bars on every spec, not just Holo.

Grenade barrage is one of engineer's hardest hitting skills, of course it will deal a good burst of damage.But in PvP, the total power scaling of the ability
if
all grenades hit is 2,4. Before the last patch, it hit for 3,0, they nerfed the damage of the ability by 20% already.

How much more do you want it to get nerfed exactly? Grenade barrage is supposed to be one of engineer's burstier skills, considering that it does nothing else but damage.

High heat Sword 2? Holo 1234? Rampage 13? Oh and there are other grenade skills.... You have many burst skills, so each of them should be tuned down.

None of those are burst (and Holo 4 is outright
bad
).

all of them are burst tho..that's why super speed is now meta instead of barrier, because holo will constantly bursting you and he will kill you before his sustain runs out.specially paired with explosive entrance

Have we ... have we changed the meaning of "burst" to mean "any damage at all"? What, are autoattacks burst now? Thats not "bursting". Thats "doing damage".

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