NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[JorKadeen.3846]

I cant comprehend how people are whishing that downstate should go away. its the same like saying in X-battle royal game should not have the "revive" mechanic.It is the Game.

And EVERY mechanic helps the Outnumberd. cause ... its outnumberd. it multiplys everything. lel.you are not supposed to win outnumberd. if the skillgap is high enought you can. yesIf you complain about it. its just that you are not good enougth. You didnt planned your resources. You played like a **** and blown all your cooldwons.

And if you again say "but it favours the many" -> thats how it should be

like... CC favours the many, Damage favours the many, Sustain favours the many, every fuking thing favours the many...and it doesnt "favours" the many more than any of the other parts in gw2. the few can also really. the can even really more ...

so you could also say. the CC favours the many. remove it. ... you see where you going?

And btw ntelligent and good downstategameplay also helps "Havoc/ZergBomb groups" heavily. If you dont know why, watch some good footage of good downstatemanagement and what effect it can have on fights. i will not write a manual cause no one reads threw posts that are longer than "dont like downstate. favours the many, remove it"

The thing that anet probably did wrong that they didnt "nerved" it according to the general damage reduction. BUT the downed skills or downstate in general got nearly never touched since release. so it didnt had the powercreep run as everything else had. so its kinda ok it didnt got changed. Downstate is since february more like it was in the old days.aaand in the old days people knew how to manage it.

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:you could be very low on health upon downing the enemy. or you had to use some key stab ability to win the fight and you don't have anything to finish the downed without problem.yes on paper you have lots of different ways to deal with a finisher. but in reality, how many time you couldn't finish your target properly due to skill in cd or downed pressure or a +1 coming to help the downed? i often see players just dps the downed instead of taking the risk of performing a finisher. simply pressing F on a downed in a team fight, even with some stab, could mean death without a psecific skill to let you perform the finisher without taking too much risk.yes it is a hassle to have and deal with a new HP bar you can't CC that may potentially revive when you already made effort (debatable but you get the idea) to down you opponent when you tried to kill him.. especially with a support class/build nearby...

you descripe just that you arnt able do manage your cooldwons accordingly to make the kill. infight you only think about getting players into downstate and not that you have to finish em off.if you cant save your cooldwons for it. YOU SHOULD NOT WIN. YOU DID NOT GOOD ENOUGHT. (And if you say downstate skills are nobrainers. just 1111 on nec and ez. still didnt planned your resource well enought... still not good enougth)

(it works wonders if you pick the easy target, getting him down with good cooldown management and than bait them into rezzing and BOOOM em. ez 3 kills)(Works also in other scales. like zerg bombing. spike 5 dudes, down em. disengage, idiots rezz and you have your bomb on em and get 15 kills)

In Openfield fights there never should be a thing like: The many should get a disatvantege blablabala. Thats not how combat is.The outnumberd players can get a advantage when they have structures and buffs. Probably they arnt good designed. But structure where always the help for the outnumberd (even in the history of humen) ( Or better weapons, but thats more like -> if have better build/op build i win. not few vs. many)

No downstate would ONLY support oneshot/onebomb meme and the counterpart total tank. All inbetween will not be viable (why? all inbetween gets oneshot by Oneshotbuilds and they cant win vs tanks because they have not enougth damage)

[Dawdler.8521]

@JorKadeen.3846 said:And EVERY mechanic helps the Outnumberd. cause ... its outnumberd. it multiplys everything. lel.Except conditions. So almost.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

the skill gap for managing downed while outnumbered is too high compared to simply have more player to your side to snowball them.1v1 is hard enough when you face a decent player with a good build. so when you managed to down him you should be rewarded, not punished.

the rest has nothing to do with downstate.CC is evadable or breakstunable, same for anything really... but you can't pass over downstate. you must either deal with it or be big enough to just spam a few AOE on the downed for him to die.it is funny that you say i should not win my 1v2 because i had to use my special finisher helper skill in the battle.

but your argument about full tank vs full damage is irrelevent since it is already used with downstate. so the only thing it will change is making the bunker maybe less effective as they will not be able to revive downed.here a counter argument:in a zerg vs zerg fight, why would you need to have a balanced meta if you can revive downed easily and still tank the damage?but with no downstate you can't go full bunker because you will lack the burst to kill fast. you ll get a balanced comp with a bit of everything so you will survive but also deal enough damage to kill your opponent fast. when zerg fight are getting too big it doesn't even matter anymore. but in like 25vs25 you really feel the difference.

you are too accosumed to downstate. so much that you don't see all the strategy possibilities from a no donwstate perspective.

also downstate in other games doesn't turn you into a DPS/CC turret.

[JorKadeen.3846]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@"JorKadeen.3846" said:

the skill gap for managing downed while outnumbered is too high compared to simply have more player to your side to snowball them.1v1 is hard enough when you face a decent player with a good build. so when you managed to down him you should be rewarded, not punished.

you dont get it are you?You get the REWARD when you Kill him. cause thats the game. until than the fight isnt over. You dont get punished if you down him. You seem just unbale to deal with downstate.

the rest has nothing to do with downstate.CC is evadable or breakstunable, same for anything really... but you can't pass over downstate. you must either deal with it or be big enough to just spam a few AOE on the downed for him to die.it is funny that you say i should not win my 1v2 because i had to use my special finisher helper skill in the battle.

What? you cant evade downstate skills? what are you on about. to you listen to the glibberish you say?

i did never said "use my special finisher helper" or that glibberishi say you should not win a 2v1. cause douple the ressource > one ressource. You can kill noobs in 2v1. and. many many builds with classes support "Save stomps"i would even say you dont know what people mean with "save stomps"...

but your argument about full tank vs full damage is irrelevent since it is already used with downstate. so the only thing it will change is making the bunker maybe less effective as they will not be able to revive downed.

what????

here a counter argument:in a zerg vs zerg fight, why would you need to have a balanced meta if you can revive downed easily and still tank the damage?

vs a good guild with good players every revive attempt will get punished. and you cant "tank" it. thats why all good guilds run "Revive" mechanics for your instant rezzes you love so much

but with no downstate you can't go full bunker because you will lack the burst to kill fast. you ll get a balanced comp with a bit of everything so you will survive but also deal enough damage to kill your opponent fast. when zerg fight are getting too big it doesn't even matter anymore. but in like 25vs25 you really feel the difference.

doesnt we have that right now? we have full support. we have full damage. we have hyprid kind builds? but everything will be much more susceptible for meme stealth one bomb shit. Things that have no "real counterplay". THings that are totally not "skill based".Stealth meme bomb isnt skill based. Stealth onbeshot isnt skill based. and the counterplay to that is downstate and revive.

you are too accosumed to downstate. so much that you don't see all the strategy possibilities from a no donwstate perspective.

i played in every no downstate event for a good amaount of time. i know what effect it has. CAuse i know how easy it is to "Stealth + Buff + Onebomb" is. you can to that to twice the amount of players you are. and it is NOT skillfull in anyway. YOU would support NON skillfull gameplay. Buttonsmashers with no brain for managment of cooldwons

also downstate in other games doesn't turn you into a DPS/CC turret.

downstate isnt a DPS/CC turret. First not all have a cc and most dont even make damage.There are some outliners. They can be balanced

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Naxos.2503 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Yeah standardizing health and perhaps downed state skills wouldn't be a bad idea. There should also be a tangible reward for stomping too like recharging skills to some degree.

I think I'd want to keep some semblance of "class identity" in downed state, tbh. But the inconsistent effectiveness should probably be addressed somehow. Enforcing consistent character stats once downed (kinda like how everyone has the same hp/armor/damage when mounted) might be a good idea, too -- it would get us away from stuff like "this condi build does a lot of damage when downed / this condi build does almost no damage when downed" or the tedium of trying to cleave down enemies with 3.5k armor.

Your idea for some small reward for finishing enemies is also a good one, imo.

How about if you finish them, they have to respawn, no being revived until they do respawn. That way there is a risk and reward for going the extra bit? Would say standardize health but factor in vitality/tough.

That makes more sense and seems more fair.

I'm also in favor of giving a little extra to players who do finish their kills. Revive speed could also be hampered to further balance it out.

On the flip side, I do think that some skills who revive players should likely stay so as to not further narrow down build potentials. The last thing anyone want are extreme builds where it's all offense, or all defense. Support is nice too, and someone who uses the right skill at the right time shouldn't be penalized, not to mention such skills often have a long cooldown.

If we would go with a 1 to 1 revive then would prefer that people have options to craft builds that help them get teammates back up while downed. Someone specing out to be support would be potentially penalizing their own output which would be a reasonable trade-off.

I could see giving extra to players that defeat and finish a target as well since it was potentially the most challenging way to do it.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@jsp.6912 said:i imagine this guy who thinks he is skilled because he played a glass canon build and os a guy during the no downstate event.

He plays a warrior actually lmao I'm sure that doesn't change your mind at all though.

Imagine defending a mechanic where you don't really die after you die ;)

Also since February, specializing into glass cannon has had the worst return on investment of all time in GW2. No idea what you're complaining about.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Baldrick.8967 said:By 'who are skilled' did he mean using a macro on a thief is now classed as 'skilled'? oops failed to down that player in .3 of a second I'd better reset the fight now poof into stealth and hope my other two thief brothers and the mes and engi manage to finish him off....

I love how this thief QQ turned into random getting outnumbered QQ lol. Very coherent

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

the skill gap for managing downed while outnumbered is too high compared to simply have more player to your side to snowball them.1v1 is hard enough when you face a decent player with a good build. so when you managed to down him you should be rewarded, not punished.

you dont get it are you?You get the REWARD when you Kill him. cause thats the game. until than the fight isnt over. You dont get punished if you down him. You seem just unbale to deal with downstate.

you.. don't get it. downedstate is another full HP bar with new skills with some CC or/and heavy dps depending on the build. i worked hard (or not but meh) to down my target. what now? i have to deal him the downed while his friend is hitting me. but if i get downed, it is over.same goes in a 2v2. one get downed and killed? well the lonely one is as good as dead. often will you see people hiting the downed instead of taking the risk to finish him with a stomp.

the rest has nothing to do with downstate.CC is evadable or breakstunable, same for anything really... but you can't pass over downstate. you must either deal with it or be big enough to just spam a few AOE on the downed for him to die.it is funny that you say i should not win my 1v2 because i had to use my special finisher helper skill in the battle.

What? you cant evade downstate skills? what are you on about. to you listen to the glibberish you say?

go and evade necro, guard, elem or mesmer downstate autoattack.

i did never said "use my special finisher helper" or that glibberishi say you should not win a 2v1. cause douple the ressource > one ressource. You can kill noobs in 2v1. and. many many builds with classes support "Save stomps"i would even say you dont know what people mean with "save stomps"...

i don't quite get what you are trying to say here.but if i should not win a 1v2 then this fall into the category of punishing effort with numbers and PvE mechanic such as downstate.

but your argument about full tank vs full damage is irrelevent since it is already used with downstate. so the only thing it will change is making the bunker maybe less effective as they will not be able to revive downed.

what????

there is already stupid full bunker zergs or guild raid with full damage comp. at least no downstate kinda nerf full bunkers as they can't easily revive their downed mate you made effort to take down.

here a counter argument:in a zerg vs zerg fight, why would you need to have a balanced meta if you can revive downed easily and still tank the damage?

vs a good guild with good players every revive attempt will get punished. and you cant "tank" it. thats why all good guilds run "Revive" mechanics for your instant rezzes you love so much

yeah, they will just bomb the downed to oblivion instead of bombing the enemy group. then use the downed as a rally point instead of being free to move as you wish without the need to focus on downed. players are like chicken that doesn't know what to focus until they find some grain on the floor aka the downed.

but with no downstate you can't go full bunker because you will lack the burst to kill fast. you ll get a balanced comp with a bit of everything so you will survive but also deal enough damage to kill your opponent fast. when zerg fight are getting too big it doesn't even matter anymore. but in like 25vs25 you really feel the difference.

doesnt we have that right now? we have full support. we have full damage. we have hyprid kind builds? but everything will be much more susceptible for meme stealth one bomb kitten. Things that have no "real counterplay". THings that are totally not "skill based".Stealth meme bomb isnt skill based. Stealth onbeshot isnt skill based. and the counterplay to that is downstate and revive.

sure, it can be a problem. but it is funny that an assassin can't assassinate just because there is too many players around the target... of course meme bomb is still effective in 1vX scenario when the X players don't even know what they are doing.nearly any class can kill in less than one second with the right build. even mesmer has a build to one shot a 3000+ armor 20kHP soulbeast. (i was running toward a fight with my stupid soulbeast tank condi, suddenly i saw mesmer clones and i was downed. not even the time to react.)i am sure that mesmer didn't just used one button but a chain of specific skills with the right build to perform that.yes it is a problem. but downed state does not fix that problem. it is just a merely first aid bandage.

you are too accosumed to downstate. so much that you don't see all the strategy possibilities from a no donwstate perspective.

i played in every no downstate event for a good amaount of time. i know what effect it has. CAuse i know how easy it is to "Stealth + Buff + Onebomb" is. you can to that to twice the amount of players you are. and it is NOT skillfull in anyway. YOU would support NON skillfull gameplay. Buttonsmashers with no brain for managment of cooldwons

they either nerf downstate hard enough to make it fair. or just get rid of it. the current state of downstate is frustrating.no downstate will need so class balance which will be easier to do anyway because you wont have the downstate to save your ass.maybe if players wouldn't rely on elem mist form whlie downed arenanet would have already did something instead of "meh, they have a good downstate to compensate"lol.the problem with no downstate event is that it is an event. it should last longer so player can accomodate to it and develop nbew strategy instead of still playing like before and complaining it doesn't work but don't mind it anyway since it is just an event...

also downstate in other games doesn't turn you into a DPS/CC turret.

downstate isnt a DPS/CC turret. First not all have a cc and most dont even make damage.There are some outliners. They can be balanced

balanced like underwater weapons right? maybe in a few years?

i can destroy any power build while downed with my power necro. or put unbelievable pressure with condi thief, mesmer or druide. this should be balanced. and i can't even get CC outside of a bump which is a rare CC.

[Baldrick.8967]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:By 'who are skilled' did he mean using a macro on a thief is now classed as 'skilled'? oops failed to down that player in .3 of a second I'd better reset the fight now poof into stealth and hope my other two thief brothers and the mes and engi manage to finish him off....

I love how this thief QQ turned into random getting outnumbered QQ lol. Very coherent

Thanks for adding to the debate. Not.

If you thought for a moment you'd realise that the statement was relevant to downstate given that you can be in a party of any size and people can exploit broken mechanics to pick players off: it wasn't about being outnumbered at all.

Because of the bad game design and bad balance, removing downstate just highlighted more of the many issues that exist in GW2 pvp and especially wvw. Such as stealth and one shot builds and being able to use a macro on no delay between skills char types, etc.

It no wonder most of us left a while ago, maybe pop our head ingame every now and again and ghost on the forums as we died waiting for alliances to come out....

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Baldrick.8967 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:By 'who are skilled' did he mean using a macro on a thief is now classed as 'skilled'? oops failed to down that player in .3 of a second I'd better reset the fight now poof into stealth and hope my other two thief brothers and the mes and engi manage to finish him off....

I love how this thief QQ turned into random getting outnumbered QQ lol. Very coherent

Thanks for adding to the debate. Not.

If you thought for a moment you'd realise that the statement was relevant to downstate given that you can be in a party of any size and people can exploit broken mechanics to pick players off: it wasn't about being outnumbered at all.

Because of the bad game design and bad balance, removing downstate just highlighted more of the many issues that exist in GW2 pvp and especially wvw. Such as stealth and one shot builds and being able to use a macro on no delay between skills char types, etc.

It no wonder most of us left a while ago, maybe pop our head ingame every now and again and ghost on the forums as we died waiting for alliances to come out....

If you think a build type that maybe <5 people run on any given map at a time is the reason WVW is broken, well I just don't know what to say to you.

[Hadi.6025]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@phreeak.1023 said:Permanent no downstate.. Oh lord, i see literally dozen of one shot warriors who snipe the people out of a zerg with 18k crits.

No thanks. Very skillful.

well no. some tried warrior with rifle but it wasn't as effective as you would imagine. dragon hunter on the other hand...

@"Hadi.6025" said:If it's one thing that "No Downstate Week" showed me is that it really show's you who needs downstate to play the game mode; who are skilled and who abuses broken builds that get over looked for years. This is why i urge Arena Net to implement the same rules from PVP to WvW game mode; the fact that literally all power damage nerfed should show you how frustrating it is to end fights (I.E lack of cleave damage on downed players) when players go down, not to mention how overpowered Downstate skills are especially for necro being able to literally zap all your health in seconds if they're running a power build. Their traits like Spinal shivers still activates even after the player is already "Defeated" So not only do you have to fight through basically a second health bar of that same player (Not to forget it changes depending on the build so some down players have 20-30k health) you have to fight off all their damage that you can't really interrupt, it gives them too much advantage when they should have already lost. IF Anet implemented the same rules such as no invulnerability after going down it would make the fights go by much more smoothly, since cleave damage is lacking due to power coefficients nerfed.

What i would suggest to completely balance Downstate is to make

EVERYONES

health the same when they go down. keep the same skills fine but some of the downstate skills need their power coefficients reduced . There's no reason i should be getting hit AS hard if not HARDER by a player that is on the ground defeated, that virtually makes no sense. These same rules should apply for underwater combat as well. They tried to nerf underwater pets for Ranger but they still hit entirely too hard and can still power ress players within seconds of using the skill. It shouldn't be this frustrating and the fights need to go by faster instead of dragging on for so long due to over looked balance changes.

=> no rally bot.=> heavily nerf downed state power/condi damage auto attack for all class. make it useless .=> only one can revive a downed player. make specific builds to revive faster shine. if not being hit, one player reviving the odwned + the downed healing himslef is fast enough.=>nerf downed state % of hp depending on vitaity stat. (or give the same health for each class depending on the class. like all necro would share the same downed hp but it would be higher than elem shared hp for example.)

Where does the OP say they want permanent downstate? Why argue over something not mentioned?

D:

They read one line and come up with a predetermined statement.

[kash.9213]

I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

[JorKadeen.3846]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:you.. don't get it. downedstate is another full HP bar with new skills with some CC or/and heavy dps depending on the build. i worked hard (or not but meh) to down my target. what now? i have to deal him the downed while his friend is hitting me. but if i get downed, it is over.same goes in a 2v2. one get downed and killed? well the lonely one is as good as dead. often will you see people hiting the downed instead of taking the risk to finish him with a stomp.

when you cant get the kill on the downstate in the scenario. you wouldnt win the 2v1 @ no downstate.if you say dowstate is such a dps machine why you cant kill all of your enemys with it? lel logic -> go downstate = unbeatable

if you play vs players that are more effective in downstate and work hard to kill them, its probably a l2p issue?

go and evade necro, guard, elem or mesmer downstate autoattack.

a full berserker ele hits for max 3k crit. But you can cleave him prolly faster thatn you can stomp. cause he has no HP at all.guard does damge in downstate?necro does damage. still no oneshot. and dodgeable. lel msemer? you mean condi?

i don't quite get what you are trying to say here.but if i should not win a 1v2 then this fall into the category of punishing effort with numbers and PvE mechanic such as downstate.

dowstate isnt a "PvE" mechanic.And yeah. its also a "group/team" game. Why would you have specific roles. so why shouldnt you die if you are outnumberd? You punish yourself if you seek outnumberd fights. Nothing wrong with that. I always search for that.

there is already stupid full bunker zergs or guild raid with full damage comp. at least no downstate kinda nerf full bunkers as they can't easily revive their downed mate you made effort to take down.

bunker zerg with full damage comp? iam confused. You mad yause you cant have a effect alone on 15+ players. sad man. should get also a group and coordinate your bomb

yeah, they will just bomb the downed to oblivion instead of bombing the enemy group. then use the downed as a rally point instead of being free to move as you wish without the need to focus on downed. players are like chicken that doesn't know what to focus until they find some grain on the floor aka the downed.its called. downstatemanagement ..... its a whole extra level of tactic. Not just. kill that and over next.how did they went down before if they dont know how to fokus. How can good guilds fight heavliy outnumberd and win? Why cant other guils to the same?

easy awnser. they are not good enought.

sure, it can be a problem. but it is funny that an assassin can't assassinate just because there is too many players around the target... of course meme bomb is still effective in 1vX scenario when the X players don't even know what they are doing.nearly any class can kill in less than one second with the right build. even mesmer has a build to one shot a 3000+ armor 20kHP soulbeast. (i was running toward a fight with my stupid soulbeast tank condi, suddenly i saw mesmer clones and i was downed. not even the time to react.)i am sure that mesmer didn't just used one button but a chain of specific skills with the right build to perform that.yes it is a problem. but downed state does not fix that problem. it is just a merely first aid bandage.

its no assassin ;) and most of the time when they "many enemys" dont see it coming u still can stomp it with thief ez. (shadowstep OP btw)if you want to have stealth in the game this kinda of one spike will always exist.

they either nerf downstate hard enough to make it fair. or just get rid of it. the current state of downstate is frustrating.no downstate will need so class balance which will be easier to do anyway because you wont have the downstate to save your kitten.maybe if players wouldn't rely on elem mist form whlie downed arenanet would have already did something instead of "meh, they have a good downstate to compensate"lol.the problem with no downstate event is that it is an event. it should last longer so player can accomodate to it and develop nbew strategy instead of still playing like before and complaining it doesn't work but don't mind it anyway since it is just an event...

I dont get how it is so frustrating. You are blinded in the fact that you think you won a fight when you get someone to downstate.Elem dont relay on dust form that it can be viable. thats just bullshit.

events are fun and should only be for a short duration. all the people play the game for a reason. Not cause they want to change the whole compat system.

balanced like underwater weapons right? maybe in a few years?

mate thats a complete different story. and i never did say that anet does a good job at balancing. i said removing something "uniqe", and game descriping is the wrong way.

i can destroy any power build while downed with my power necro. or put unbelievable pressure with condi thief, mesmer or druide. this should be balanced. and i can't even get CC outside of a bump which is a rare CC.

i want to see that. how you to that. destroy something in dwonstate.

probably in a "dowstate duell" some have a good advantage. but you cant destroy people in downstate. (Probably "noobs")

If you say you like the combat system more without downstate thats your opinion. And iam ok with that.

BUT i cant accept that you say that it is an unfair mechanic. Because beenig"outnumberd" already is the defenition of disadvantage. and as i said before you can say this about every mechanic ingame. thats just.... More stuff is more .... More weight is heavier ... i dont know... dont get why ýou make a problem out of this.

its like... 2 guys transporting some shit some stairways up. and you to the same. and than complain that they have an advantage. lets take away everyones tools to lift it easier.

[Baldrick.8967]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Baldrick.8967 said:By 'who are skilled' did he mean using a macro on a thief is now classed as 'skilled'? oops failed to down that player in .3 of a second I'd better reset the fight now poof into stealth and hope my other two thief brothers and the mes and engi manage to finish him off....

I love how this thief QQ turned into random getting outnumbered QQ lol. Very coherent

Thanks for adding to the debate. Not.

If you thought for a moment you'd realise that the statement was relevant to downstate given that you can be in a party of any size and people can exploit broken mechanics to pick players off: it wasn't about being outnumbered at all.

Because of the bad game design and bad balance, removing downstate just highlighted more of the many issues that exist in GW2 pvp and especially wvw. Such as stealth and one shot builds and being able to use a macro on no delay between skills char types, etc.

It no wonder most of us left a while ago, maybe pop our head ingame every now and again and ghost on the forums as we died waiting for alliances to come out....

If you think a build type that maybe <5 people run on any given map at a time is the reason WVW is broken, well I just don't know what to say to you.

Again, you missed the point. It didn't say that it is the only reason wvw is broken- I don't have time to list everything that is broken in it (and it's pointless as there are no devs working on wvw anyway).

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

the argument i have with you is pointless. you are just trying to counter argue everything i say without putting much thoughts into it for the sake of not having the same opinion as me about donwstate.

and yeah, in the case of gw2, downedstate is a PvE mechanic that didn't got rebalanced enough for WvW. by memory, all they did was reduce the number of rally bot to 1 instead of 5 (and made rally bot ineffective against some npc. the one from the camps i tihnk?) and nerf necro fear skill so that it target only one enemy. the rest is pretty much the same as when the game launched. they made original downed skill for all class because they found it to be cool, not for practical use. heck, you can't even stomp a downed underwater... (because he can move. but you could have an immobilisation on the downed while the stomp is used.)

as for how i would destroy a power build with my necro downstate, easy. i press 1. and if the passive chill attack( with the bonus damage for each boon the target has) i can hit hard enough to down him. also in a duel of downed, ranger always win unless facing a thief. else necro is king. so much for the downstate balance.as arenanet have trouble to balance correctly downedstate id prefer getting rid of it until they give us the balanced downstate we need.

[Hadi.6025]

@kash.9213 said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

[JorKadeen.3846]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@"JorKadeen.3846" said:

the argument i have with you is pointless. you are just trying to counter argue everything i say without putting much thoughts into it for the sake of not having the same opinion as me about donwstate.

When i can't agree with everything you say i counterargument everything.I think i put enought thought into this topic.I don't want to talk you out of your opinion and that you like no downstate. i want to discuss the fact that in my opinion the "mechanic downstate" is not the reason why you lose outnumberd fights.

and yeah, in the case of gw2, downedstate is a PvE mechanic that didn't got rebalanced enough for WvW. by memory, all they did was reduce the number of rally bot to 1 instead of 5 (and made rally bot ineffective against some npc. the one from the camps i tihnk?) and nerf necro fear skill so that it target only one enemy. the rest is pretty much the same as when the game launched. they made original downed skill for all class because they found it to be cool, not for practical use. heck, you can't even stomp a downed underwater... (because he can move. but you could have an immobilisation on the downed while the stomp is used.)

Can you give me a reason why it is a PvE mechabic? not just: it is not.Cause in my knowing it got implemented in every gamemode at every point and time of the game. even the beta tests. Its important in pvp. Its important in WvW.

Some utilitys and skills that interact with downstate only find use in this competitve modes.

as for how i would destroy a power build with my necro downstate, easy. i press 1. and if the passive chill attack( with the bonus damage for each boon the target has) i can hit hard enough to down him. also in a duel of downed, ranger always win unless facing a thief. else necro is king. so much for the downstate balance.

if you lose to that. it sucks. but you were not good enought. you didn''t do well. thats why you lost. Not cause downstate exists.

as arenanet have trouble to balance correctly downedstate id prefer getting rid of it until they give us the balanced downstate we need.

Removing it is overkill. it isnt opressive in any form. Otherwise you would see everywhere in high lvl gameplay people complain about it. Or you would see people dieing permanantly to it.

I dont disagree that some skills in downstate need balancing. I already did say that.But downstate should stay unique. In my opinion. Because it adds more tactical gameplay. More depth to the Game.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@JorKadeen.3846 said:

the argument i have with you is pointless. you are just trying to counter argue everything i say without putting much thoughts into it for the sake of not having the same opinion as me about donwstate.

When i can't agree with everything you say i counterargument everything.I think i put enought thought into this topic.I don't want to talk you out of your opinion and that you like no downstate. i want to discuss the fact that in my opinion the "mechanic downstate" is not the reason why you lose outnumberd fights.

i don't want to continue this conversation but since you asked a few question and are not insulting and condescendant like one other dude i had a similar conversation with... lets keep it short.

downstate is the main reason why outnumbered is so difficult.no downstate just proved that. some players going 1v3 and easily won the engagement they would have never won with downstate. i experienced that first hand too. it completely change the flow of the battle. denying that isn't going to help you argument against no downstate.

and yeah, in the case of gw2, downedstate is a PvE mechanic that didn't got rebalanced enough for WvW. by memory, all they did was reduce the number of rally bot to 1 instead of 5 (and made rally bot ineffective against some npc. the one from the camps i tihnk?) and nerf necro fear skill so that it target only one enemy. the rest is pretty much the same as when the game launched. they made original downed skill for all class because they found it to be cool, not for practical use. heck, you can't even stomp a downed underwater... (because he can move. but you could have an immobilisation on the downed while the stomp is used.)

Can you give me a reason why it is a PvE mechabic? not just: it is not.Cause in my knowing it got implemented in every gamemode at every point and time of the game. even the beta tests. Its important in pvp. Its important in WvW.

Some utilitys and skills that interact with downstate only find use in this competitve modes.

i already said it. they gave downstate skills per class becasue it looked cool and thematic.also gw2 is a friendly mmorpg at its core with a gameplay focusing on players helping each other. that is also why there is no duels in PvE (official statement from arenanet) in contrary of most other mmorpg.we all know how pvp and wvw needed their own balance separated from pve. well, that is the same for downed state. but it was never really balanced aside from a few change in WvW. (but that's not enough.)pvp and wvw was never arenanet focus anyway.

as for how i would destroy a power build with my necro downstate, easy. i press 1. and if the passive chill attack( with the bonus damage for each boon the target has) i can hit hard enough to down him. also in a duel of downed, ranger always win unless facing a thief. else necro is king. so much for the downstate balance.

if you lose to that. it sucks. but you were not good enought. you didn''t do well. thats why you lost. Not cause downstate exists.

no you didn't understood. i was the one playing necro. but that can also happens to anyone.downstate necro autoattack is not evadable. if you try to stomp him while you don't have a tanky build or a special skill to easily stomp you can get screwed hard.funny how i was good enough to down him but then choose to try and stomp him (since it is the normal way to kill a downed) but get punished for that.this is not a good PvP feature. it woks in sPvP because of the small scale and the point ontrol gamemode. but for pure PvP where the goal is to kill, it sucks.

as arenanet have trouble to balance correctly downedstate id prefer getting rid of it until they give us the balanced downstate we need.

Removing it is overkill. it isnt opressive in any form. Otherwise you would see everywhere in high lvl gameplay people complain about it. Or you would see people dieing permanantly to it.

I dont disagree that some skills in downstate need balancing. I already did say that.But downstate should stay unique. In my opinion. Because it adds more tactical gameplay. More depth to the Game.

more depth is not neccessarly a good thing. it can also create great unbalance.downstate as a whole need to be rebalanced. not just a few skills.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Hadi.6025 said:

@kash.9213 said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

I play all classes, could agree here. Down is down, I could see all classes having the same skills while down. Move the skills that increase downstate abilities to do other things, and standardize health pools (potentially with adjustments for vit/tough) . Playing all classes I would side on the aspect that some are much better than others while down. I am not sure I would say those that are better have higher odds of being downed either so stronger downstate abilities for those classes doesn't make sense in that aspect either.

[Dawdler.8521]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:

@kash.9213 said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

I play all classes, could agree here. Down is down, I could see all classes having the same skills while down. Move the skills that increase downstate abilities to do other things, and standardize health pools (potentially with adjustments for vit/tough) . Playing all classes I would side on the aspect that some are much better than others while down. I am not sure I would say those that are better have higher odds of being downed either so stronger downstate abilities for those classes doesn't make sense in that aspect either.Going further, you could also make all classes have the exact same skills, gear and build with no options to change it. Then no one can ever complain about

anything

again.

Wait no, people would still complain.

[Celsith.2753]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing needs to have fun too or they won't play the game. I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in crap tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

[Jeran.6850]

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

i hate when players use the elem downstate as (...)

It is still an argument that has to be taken seriously, even though i agree with you: its more a balance problem, than a downstate (or not) problem.

Why do i think so? Because a rework of the ele class, especially for (p) staff weaver, one that will make it possible to not loose its (already questionable) impact, but enhancing its (staff, this is about staff) survivability overall, will, by a very high chance, lead to high damage "super bunker" builds on other weapon sets, like d/d, or d/f.

The rework of the staff abilities (which seem to be the only logical thing to do, to prevent high damage bunker builds for weaver/ele) is an ever ongoing topic in the ele subforum, since PoF, and even before. Arenanet doesnt listen to us, not at all.

I doubt they can handle the "abnormity" they created, the weaver, in the case the downstate will be removed, instead they will make things even worse for us,or maybe even, and not very unlikely, for "you people".

As this is not a weaver/ele talk thing, but a downstate topic (and with the things i said above): i made an example of why we better keep the downstate. I do main ele, but to various degrees, i also do play every other class except mesmer, in very different aspect of the gamemode, from "roaming" to (small) guild group runs, to largescale.

I do NOT only largescale with a staff weaver- the reasons i am against the removal of the downstate are not based on my ability to perform good on staff weaver alone(and i do not PvE, just in case someones crawling out of the wood now...).

But... i am getting a little bit tired to repeat every agument ever made in the many, many topics made up about the "no downstate", in the sense of why it would be better to keep it.

Thanks for your reply.

[Jilora.9524]

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Hi are you the 30 mag "roamers" that are always lurking around SMC. I mean that's the same if you always fighting together. Or are you not on of the 8 guilds? I just say it was easier for little organized groups with no ds vs pugs then normally. I mean organization beats pugs pretty consistently unless the pugs are a group of roamers all used to isolating and picking off from that group which is rare but happens or the pugs severely outnumber the group but still you will see a bunch pugs die first. I'm in no way a fan of big or small guild groups as I'm a pug myself and pick off tails all day and try and force those groups out of objectives.Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.I've also been zerged by Mag many times so it's not exactly an outnumbered server esp in t4 where somehow you guys are.And yes support is supposed to rescue you before you go down and that's discord and grouped that helps that. Other pugs who can't see my health will only rez me not save me from being downed most times.

[Jeran.6850]

have to add: keep it, but adjust it. Equalize the hp, the skills (yes, even vapor form^^). make rezzing only possible on a 1/1 basis. remove the KITTEN rally mechanic in every aspect. I think, then we will be fine.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Jeran.6850 said:have to add: keep it, but adjust it. Equalize the hp, the skills (yes, even vapor form^^). make rezzing only possible on a 1/1 basis. remove the KITTEN rally mechanic in every aspect. I think, then we will be fine.

that's the deal. if no downstate stays an event, at least make downstate balanced and enjoyable.