NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.

If that's true, and it's true that downstate favors more numbers (duh how can you rez without more), why does the bigger side need another advantage?

:#

[Jeran.6850]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@Jeran.6850 said:have to add: keep it, but adjust it. Equalize the hp, the skills (yes, even vapor form^^). make rezzing only possible on a 1/1 basis. remove the

KITTEN

rally mechanic in every aspect. I think, then we will be fine.

that's the deal. if no downstate stays an event, at least make downstate balanced and enjoyable.

Thumbs up to you! :.)

[Jilora.9524]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.

If that's true, and it's true that downstate favors more numbers (duh how can you rez without more), why does the bigger side need another advantage?

:#

Be the bigger side then. If you like to engage when outnumbered everytime then that's a choice and we can't start removing stuff so the outnumbered side starts winning way more often because why should that happen? Why should some classes with stealth and mobility and evades or clones or immunes or w/e consistanly jump into an outnumbered situation and escape with a kill which is what happens all the time on no ds week. And unless they change a whole lot of things you can't just remove ds as it creates an even more uneven playing field. I know why you want it. I get it. Still don't get why never dieing and picking off some weak link all day isn't enough.

[Shroud.2307]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Hi are you the 30 mag "roamers" that are always lurking around SMC. I mean that's the same if you always fighting together. Or are you not on of the 8 guilds? I just say it was easier for little organized groups with no ds vs pugs then normally. I mean organization beats pugs pretty consistently unless the pugs are a group of roamers all used to isolating and picking off from that group which is rare but happens or the pugs severely outnumber the group but still you will see a bunch pugs die first. I'm in no way a fan of big or small guild groups as I'm a pug myself and pick off tails all day and try and force those groups out of objectives.Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.I've also been zerged by Mag many times so it's not exactly an outnumbered server esp in t4 where somehow you guys are.And yes support is supposed to rescue you before you go down and that's discord and grouped that helps that. Other pugs who can't see my health will only rez me not save me from being downed most times.

I just want to chime in here on one little detail. I love how common it is for people to label a Mag cloud as roamers. I think that's a compliment and a testament to the ability of many (not all) on the server. No one is zerging and calling it roaming, it's everyone else that sees us as such because we frequently manage to pick apart larger, and often times organized groups despite being tagless. We have a hive mentality and we communicate. Every server is this way to some degree, but I think Mag does it a bit better than most because not only do we communicate with each other, we're capable of carrying out pushes, bombs and snipes.

It is a very ganky server, no one's denying that. But it comes from the communication that a lot of servers lack. Many of us have friends that we party or squad with and all of us co-operate to get things done. If something is happening anywhere on the map there's a good chance everyone knows exactly what it is be it via Discord or chat.

[Jilora.9524]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Hi are you the 30 mag "roamers" that are always lurking around SMC. I mean that's the same if you always fighting together. Or are you not on of the 8 guilds? I just say it was easier for little organized groups with no ds vs pugs then normally. I mean organization beats pugs pretty consistently unless the pugs are a group of roamers all used to isolating and picking off from that group which is rare but happens or the pugs severely outnumber the group but still you will see a bunch pugs die first. I'm in no way a fan of big or small guild groups as I'm a pug myself and pick off tails all day and try and force those groups out of objectives.Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.I've also been zerged by Mag many times so it's not exactly an outnumbered server esp in t4 where somehow you guys are.And yes support is supposed to rescue you before you go down and that's discord and grouped that helps that. Other pugs who can't see my health will only rez me not save me from being downed most times.

I just want to chime in here on one little detail. I love how common it is for people to label a Mag cloud as roamers. I think that's a compliment and a testament to the ability of many (not all) on the server. No one is zerging and calling it roaming, it's everyone else that sees us as such because we frequently manage to pick apart larger, and often times organized groups despite being tagless. We have a hive mentality and we communicate. Every server is this way to some degree, but I think Mag does it a bit better than most because not only do we communicate with each other, we're capable of carrying out pushes, bombs and snipes.

It is a very ganky server, no one's denying that. But it comes from the communication that a lot of servers lack. Many of us have friends that we party or squad with and all of us co-operate to get things done. If something is happening anywhere on the map there's a good chance everyone knows exactly what it is be it via Discord or chat.

Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their shit in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:

@"kash.9213" said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

I play all classes, could agree here. Down is down, I could see all classes having the same skills while down. Move the skills that increase downstate abilities to do other things, and standardize health pools (potentially with adjustments for vit/tough) . Playing all classes I would side on the aspect that some are much better than others while down. I am not sure I would say those that are better have higher odds of being downed either so stronger downstate abilities for those classes doesn't make sense in that aspect either.Going further, you could also make all classes have the exact same skills, gear and build with no options to change it. Then no one can ever complain about

anything

again.

Wait no, people would still complain.

Class identity should not be a relevant consideration for a character that has been put into a downed or "partially defeated" state. I would argue that Class Identity is important for the active gameplay aspect of a game, meaning during actual combat while they are still considered to be alive. If you are downed, you are downed, not "active", you are in a state of being wounded or grievously wounded.

Don't conflate that one thing with the other, thats what could be considered an "irrelevant conclusion" as to how you have apparently discerned the direction or intent behind the discussion, but it is also potentially a red herring as it looks as though you would be trying to draw the discussion into a different direction. No one is saying, or implying, that "active" class gameplay should be homogenized or "normalized" in such a way.

Imagine, for a moment, if for instance Apex Legends had different abilities per character while they were downed (outside of the Knockdown Shield available as equipment in the game). Imagine if, say, Wraith had a downed skill that still allowed her to use her "Into the Void" ability and easily reposition herself while being completely safe from any damage or effects (its a 4 second invulnerable state with a 30% speed boost). This would instantly make her one of the most desired characters to even bother using or having on a team because of how much easier and safer it would be for her to get picked back up by teammates or to use the self revive equipment should they have it. Same thing with Lifeline as an example, if her (hypothetical) downed state ability was her Heal Drone and it started healing her when activated while she is downed, she would just need to crawl away from the firefight and revive herself without even the need of the Legendary Knockdown Shield that does so, which if she did have that then they would have two ways to self revive.

Any of that would severely mess up the gameplay flow and balance in that game, yet that is what GW2 has had for 8 years and nothing has been done to improve or change it. Admittedly, yes, they are two vastly different genres of game, however this is being discussed in the context of the competitive modes and downstate does need to see changes, not be removed...but it needs to see changes.

[Dawdler.8521]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:

@"kash.9213" said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

I play all classes, could agree here. Down is down, I could see all classes having the same skills while down. Move the skills that increase downstate abilities to do other things, and standardize health pools (potentially with adjustments for vit/tough) . Playing all classes I would side on the aspect that some are much better than others while down. I am not sure I would say those that are better have higher odds of being downed either so stronger downstate abilities for those classes doesn't make sense in that aspect either.Going further, you could also make all classes have the exact same skills, gear and build with no options to change it. Then no one can ever complain about

anything

again.

Wait no, people would still complain.

Class identity should not be a relevant consideration for a character that has been put into a

downed

or "partially defeated" state. I would argue that Class Identity is important for the active gameplay aspect of a game, meaning during actual

combat

while they are still considered to be

alive

. If you are downed, you are

downed

, not "active", you are in a state of being

wounded

or grievously wounded.And that's exactly how the point of view on the entire concept of GW2 combat mechanics differ.

Someone being downed is still active. It's just another phase of ongoing combat. They arent "partially defeated" at all. There's no such thing as partially defeated. They are either in combat and still a threat or they are defeated.

Which is why the different downed skills is just part of the class combat mechanics just as much as normal skills or weapons are.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:

@"kash.9213" said:I think everyone should have the same skills while downed and those should really be just a basic hit to help whoever is rescuing you chip away at the bad guy and then maybe a slow crawl skill and friendly G key slow drag skill so if you're downed and neglected you can get someplace out of the way or someone can pull you a little while your health builds back up. You should have to secure a kill instead of being able to load up a killer burst opener and ducking out in large scale fights but your own side also needs to have good security. Rally and Mount Stomp can go away, or mounts need even less health.

Yea i agree, to add complete balance i think everyone should have the same skill, but not everyone thinks like us so they think their class is unique and should have separate downed skills. I think in pvp game modes though (especially since Gw2 is the only MMORPG i know with a down and rally mechanic) it should be general base health and general downed skills; IN PVP ONLY.

I play all classes, could agree here. Down is down, I could see all classes having the same skills while down. Move the skills that increase downstate abilities to do other things, and standardize health pools (potentially with adjustments for vit/tough) . Playing all classes I would side on the aspect that some are much better than others while down. I am not sure I would say those that are better have higher odds of being downed either so stronger downstate abilities for those classes doesn't make sense in that aspect either.Going further, you could also make all classes have the exact same skills, gear and build with no options to change it. Then no one can ever complain about

anything

again.

Wait no, people would still complain.

Class identity should not be a relevant consideration for a character that has been put into a

downed

or "partially defeated" state. I would argue that Class Identity is important for the active gameplay aspect of a game, meaning during actual

combat

while they are still considered to be

alive

. If you are downed, you are

downed

, not "active", you are in a state of being

wounded

or grievously wounded.And that's exactly how the point of view on the entire concept of GW2 combat mechanics differ.

Someone being downed is still active. It's just another phase of ongoing combat. They arent "partially defeated" at all. There's no such thing as partially defeated. They are either in combat and still a threat or they are defeated.

Which is why the different downed skills is just part of the class combat mechanics just as much as normal skills or weapons are.

Sure, but you could make the argument that the way those skills work and were constructed have been contributors to issues in the game, especially considering how tanky Downstate still is (3x class base health) and with the reductions in power damage making that quite a lot of health to chip through. You also have classes that still deal a lot of damage while downed, can siphon health, can become invulnerable, invisible, etc and the ones that can't do those things and they typically go down much easier and way more simply than the ones that have access to such things.

And again the comparison comes up between the two games because despite being in two different genres I would argue that they put equal importance on "character" or "class" identity in gameplay. The hypothetical I presented with Apex Legends still presents the issue that creating "identity" per character while they are downed would create issues within the balance and gameplay flow/experience because of how improperly weighted particular possible skills would be within that context.

So let me posit this to you for a moment; Say ANet normalizes skills between the classes while in downed state, say they give them 1) Basic Attack Skill 2) Self Bandage 3) Class flavored mobility skill (nothing that is an invuln, but for example Warrior might get a "roll out" skill that would allow them to at least reposition themselves a short distance away).

• Basic Attack skill between all classes would have the same coefficients and deal the same amount of damage without it being too high.
• Self Bandage just remains as the way the one we currently have works.
• The mobility skill is flavored to the class, but they all work the same way. Just a short distance reposition skill, nothing that is an invuln or provides stealth, or CCs, or heals, nothing.
• And also downstate health between classes is all made the same. I'd argue that 25,000 to maybe 30,000 health is just fine and this is accounting for smaller scale fights and zerg vs zerg since if you end up in downstate during ZvZ you're either immediately rallied anyway, or melted in half a second anyway because of all of the AoE likely still being dropped around your body.
• Also...revive speed I think needs to get toned down, likely to the extent that the revive related traits in the game would increase revive speed to what is currently possible without said traits equipped.

So...what is the problem there? Sure, class "identity" while downed is removed but...why is that bad? Downstate would still perform the function it was designed for while keeping it from allowing only certain classes benefits that others just do not gain access to. The only thing the different classes all have in common between them is downstate, outside of downstate they all have their own identity and their own mechanics and their own unique flavors and themes. So why should that carry over as heavily as it does into the one mechanic they all share? Because people still consider being downed "active" gameplay? I'd say thats...really not how that should be perceived. "Oh no I got downed, but don't worry I can still fear them/stun them/knock them down/knock them back/stealth myself/evade/invuln out of the way". And then all it takes is one person to get them back up within a really short span of time, probably while completely safe. Downstate in GW2 is probably the safest thing in the game for some classes, and I'd say thats arguably not okay considering, again, it is the one thing all classes have in common and share.

[Celsith.2753]

@Jilora.9524 said:Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their kitten in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

Why would you want to ninja something? You avoid ebg because you are low pop in NA time zone on ebg. So, why bother trying because the bigger force has every advantage against you right? Hence things such as mount stomp or no down state would aid you to maybe hang on to some of your stuff or at least have fun killing some of the people.

As far as population, coverage in an already low population time zone just gets worse and worse because people get frustrated and either move to a server more populated in t heir tz, or quit playing. So we end up with servers like SOS that have a map queue pveing everything in sea or ocx, (sorry I dont exactly know when these TZ start and end), with no NA. Other servers are all NA and no other tz. The game needs to help out the random pugs trying their best against a compd, discord using blob. Down state hurts everyone except a badly skilled blob.

[Jilora.9524]

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their kitten in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

Why would you want to ninja something? You avoid ebg because you are low pop in NA time zone on ebg. So, why bother trying because the bigger force has every advantage against you right? Hence things such as mount stomp or no down state would aid you to maybe hang on to some of your stuff or at least have fun killing some of the people.

As far as population, coverage in an already low population time zone just gets worse and worse because people get frustrated and either move to a server more populated in t heir tz, or quit playing. So we end up with servers like SOS that have a map queue pveing everything in sea or ocx, (sorry I dont exactly know when these TZ start and end), with no NA. Other servers are all NA and no other tz. The game needs to help out the random pugs trying their best against a compd, discord using blob. Down state hurts everyone except a badly skilled blob.

I mean ninja by any server not sos like hey we or 3rd team attack garry of Mags and Mag responds leaving SMC temp unattended then they lose SMC to said team because they got tied up in garry. Or a t3 tower but only other servers experience this because Mag don't move lol. Oh Mags attacking something lets attack Mags t3 bay and pull them off. No effect. Yeah I tell players avoid ebg and only defend like keep and t3 back towers maybe and take Mags BL and that beats you guys but SoS so dead at that time. Of course they flip overnight and how they stay in matches so it evens out.

[Celsith.2753]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their kitten in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

Why would you want to ninja something? You avoid ebg because you are low pop in NA time zone on ebg. So, why bother trying because the bigger force has every advantage against you right? Hence things such as mount stomp or no down state would aid you to maybe hang on to some of your stuff or at least have fun killing some of the people.

As far as population, coverage in an already low population time zone just gets worse and worse because people get frustrated and either move to a server more populated in t heir tz, or quit playing. So we end up with servers like SOS that have a map queue pveing everything in sea or ocx, (sorry I dont exactly know when these TZ start and end), with no NA. Other servers are all NA and no other tz. The game needs to help out the random pugs trying their best against a compd, discord using blob. Down state hurts everyone except a badly skilled blob.

I mean ninja by any server not sos like hey we or 3rd team attack garry of Mags and Mag responds leaving SMC temp unattended then they lose SMC to said team because they got tied up in garry. Or a t3 tower but only other servers experience this because Mag don't move lol. Oh Mags attacking something lets attack Mags t3 bay and pull them off. No effect. Yeah I tell players avoid ebg and only defend like keep and t3 back towers maybe and take Mags BL and that beats you guys but SoS so dead at that time. Of course they flip overnight and how they stay in matches so it evens out.

Well that's not really ninja, you want to be seen. And I was speaking generically, not about your server in particular.When you have no tag, no squad in comms and just randoms running round, it's probably best to have them on one map where they can help each other. With Mag it's usually ebg. With many other servers it seems to be, afk anywhere or just log out. Personally I'd rather be on the server where people will at least try without a tag.

[ASP.8093]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their kitten in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

Why would you want to ninja something? You avoid ebg because you are low pop in NA time zone on ebg. So, why bother trying because the bigger force has every advantage against you right? Hence things such as mount stomp or no down state would aid you to maybe hang on to some of your stuff or at least have fun killing some of the people.

As far as population, coverage in an already low population time zone just gets worse and worse because people get frustrated and either move to a server more populated in t heir tz, or quit playing. So we end up with servers like SOS that have a map queue pveing everything in sea or ocx, (sorry I dont exactly know when these TZ start and end), with no NA. Other servers are all NA and no other tz. The game needs to help out the random pugs trying their best against a compd, discord using blob. Down state hurts everyone except a badly skilled blob.

I mean ninja by any server not sos like hey we or 3rd team attack garry of Mags and Mag responds leaving SMC temp unattended then they lose SMC to said team because they got tied up in garry. Or a t3 tower but only other servers experience this because Mag don't move lol. Oh Mags attacking something lets attack Mags t3 bay and pull them off. No effect. Yeah I tell players avoid ebg and only defend like keep and t3 back towers maybe and take Mags BL and that beats you guys but SoS so dead at that time. Of course they flip overnight and how they stay in matches so it evens out.

I have a very different view on this.

WvW is a week-long 24/7 mass-play game mode. That scale is part of what makes it fun, but it also means that WvW in ultiamte-hardcore-PPT-mode is horrible: it's late-night ktrains, it's timezone stacking, it's buying transfers, it's guild jabbering at each other in constant stupid "war councils," it's Discord "spies," it's scouting and driving both being reduced to a chore wheel. Just a big ol' engine of burnout and exhaustion. A far better way to play is to view the scoreboards and objectives as guideposts for where the activity is, but not valuable in and of themselves. (And to just log off for the night when you feel sleepy.)

In this light, just turning SMC into a big activity magnet is fine. It's no different from obsessing about home BL garri or north camp. It's a bit unusual, maybe, but that's the whole design of the map: "Hey, everyone, come have a big messy lag-fest fight in SMC!" Leaning into that isn't really that weird, imo. Especially if you make a point to be lazy slobs about it, so your SMC has broken outer walls and isn't bristling with 50 pieces of siege.

I'm sure it can be frustrating to play against sometimes, but:

1. So can anything.
2. The default "drop everything and run back to garri!!" playstyle gets super stale, too.
3. I honestly find it much more oppressive when a more PPT-oriented group grabs SMC, because it turns the whole center map into this big dead zone.

[Jilora.9524]

@ASP.8093 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:Never said what you guys do is bad but lets be honest most servers gaf about their BL and defend it or go take stuff on other BL's. You guys don't so there's never a chace to go and ninja something in EBG because you guys are always there. Now this week you have but that's more sos being so dead you own their kitten in ebg then I'm sure NSP puts up a little more fight but they don't have nothing to stop you in EBG. I mean only CTH and CL ever anywhere else every other week. You got multiple lil griefy type guilds like snac and hunt and the same 15-30 roamers in EBG all night. No one can touch it because you just want K/D. That is life no matter how often you sit in t4. If you go and play a mode differently then almost everyone else you can do what you guys do.

Why would you want to ninja something? You avoid ebg because you are low pop in NA time zone on ebg. So, why bother trying because the bigger force has every advantage against you right? Hence things such as mount stomp or no down state would aid you to maybe hang on to some of your stuff or at least have fun killing some of the people.

As far as population, coverage in an already low population time zone just gets worse and worse because people get frustrated and either move to a server more populated in t heir tz, or quit playing. So we end up with servers like SOS that have a map queue pveing everything in sea or ocx, (sorry I dont exactly know when these TZ start and end), with no NA. Other servers are all NA and no other tz. The game needs to help out the random pugs trying their best against a compd, discord using blob. Down state hurts everyone except a badly skilled blob.

I mean ninja by any server not sos like hey we or 3rd team attack garry of Mags and Mag responds leaving SMC temp unattended then they lose SMC to said team because they got tied up in garry. Or a t3 tower but only other servers experience this because Mag don't move lol. Oh Mags attacking something lets attack Mags t3 bay and pull them off. No effect. Yeah I tell players avoid ebg and only defend like keep and t3 back towers maybe and take Mags BL and that beats you guys but SoS so dead at that time. Of course they flip overnight and how they stay in matches so it evens out.

I have a very different view on this.

WvW is a week-long 24/7 mass-play game mode. That scale is part of what makes it fun, but it also means that WvW in ultiamte-hardcore-PPT-mode is horrible: it's late-night ktrains, it's timezone stacking, it's buying transfers, it's guild jabbering at each other in constant stupid "war councils," it's Discord "spies," it's scouting and driving both being reduced to a chore wheel. Just a big ol' engine of burnout and exhaustion. A far better way to play is to view the scoreboards and objectives as guideposts for where the

activity

is, but not valuable in and of themselves. (And to just log off for the night when you feel sleepy.)

In this light, just turning SMC into a big activity magnet is fine. It's no different from obsessing about home BL garri or north camp. It's a bit

unusual

, maybe, but that's the whole design of the map: "Hey, everyone, come have a big messy lag-fest fight in SMC!" Leaning into that isn't really that weird, imo. Especially if you make a point to be lazy slobs about it, so your SMC has broken outer walls and isn't bristling with 50 pieces of siege.

I'm sure it can be frustrating to play against sometimes, but:

1. So can anything.
2. The default "drop everything and run back to garri!!" playstyle gets super stale, too.
3. I honestly find it much more oppressive when a more PPT-oriented group grabs SMC, because it turns the whole center map into this big dead zone.

Yeah EBG is more fun if SMC not t3 being controlled by 1 side all night. I don't mean drop everything and go def garry or bay but at least defend it which Mag will sit in EBG no matter what someone on their BL tells them is under attack while half the time they just flipping the outer towers of the other 2 teams. This thread is kinda derailed because some Mag players and me did that unintentionally. I personally get bored fighting between SMC and a keep after about 20-30m and rather flip/defend stuff. Most fun is when 2 sides att my BL at once but everyones diff I guess.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Celsith.2753 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:There's already like a half dozen threads on this subject. Including all these arguments being shot down, repeatedly.

The consensus I see the most is that no downstate actually carries bad builds because it favors quickly defeating players and not having to come up with any kind of strategy for dealing with them once they're downed. It made going "all in" alot less risky because there's less chance of failure since you need to do significantly less damage and use less tactics overall.

Downstate is, among other things, part of a player's effective health and affects cooldown management.

And yet, that isn't how it played out. The 30 constantly pushing 5-10 during normal playtimes, were clearly being carried by pure numbers. Because, during no downstate, they didn't push as deep, and when they did, died. We were able to, time and time again, slowly kill off the larger groups, because they didn't have the insta-res that they normally have. The skilled players didn't die as often, and the "we only have numbers" crowd, died, a lot. Even TC, the constantly outnumbered carebear server we are, played at, or above, 1.0 kdr all week. Where the largest server in our matchup, who normally has a 1.5 kdr or higher, stayed right at 1.0 also.

Ya if you try and go oh 30 pugs pushed into our 10 man guild and some died sure. But a 30 man guild pushing into a 10 man guild wouldn't be the same results. You are confusing skill with being an organized guild group in discord all specced to support each other. Organization with or w/o ds will beat a bunch of pugs.

Umm. Hi I'm on Maguuma. We most definitely are not an organized guild group in discord all specced to w key over pugs with max efficiency. Why do guilds do that by the way? Do you really need 3 support per party to run over people without a tag? Does it feel good? lol Anyway, no down state and mount stomp were both very good at helping pugs v a compd group. Now I have some sympathy with the whole, they got organized so they deserve to win mentality. But as the game goes on and population dwindles, more and more servers find themselves with less and less organized coverage. Which means that organized blobs are fighting random pugs more and more often. If you don't give those pugs tools to use and at least a chance to win with those tools and decent skill levels, the organized group ends up fighting no one, because they log. That isn't good for the game. What we often fail to consider is that the side currently losing

needs to have fun too or they won't play the game.

I personally don't care if we have 7 people with the outmanned buff against 30+ as long as I can punish the players who lag behind or don't dodge or think standing in the middle of their blob means they can watch youtube on their other monitor. But I'm going to log out when it's no fun at all. Which is more and more often in this meta, with the typical players mentality of blob blob blob, complain on the forums every time you don't dodge some damage and blobmanders whining in the dev discord to get the small group tools nerfed.

Power is nerfed so badly now that no matter how experienced and generally skillful a bunch of randoms is, all they see time and time again is that when you punish a zergling for getting out of position, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop the 5 minstrel wearing gamers standing in kitten tons of aoe to rez them. And half the time it's a near instant rez and they're back up with full hp. Now call me weird, but I expect support to be supporting BEFORE the player goes down, not rescuing them after.

What we find on our server is that down state heavily favours the side with larger numbers. If one of us goes down, its not very often anyone can rez with 80 slobbering nerds rushing at them. No down state made the blobs think twice, made it possible to punish players for mistakes, made fights feel better paced, (I'm 45 this year and I get bored as heck with the slow pace of fights, I can't imagine how any of you young'uns don't fall asleep playing this game mode) AND made it quicker to get back to a fight if defeated.

Hi are you the 30 mag "roamers" that are always lurking around SMC. I mean that's the same if you always fighting together. Or are you not on of the 8 guilds? I just say it was easier for little organized groups with no ds vs pugs then normally. I mean organization beats pugs pretty consistently unless the pugs are a group of roamers all used to isolating and picking off from that group which is rare but happens or the pugs severely outnumber the group but still you will see a bunch pugs die first. I'm in no way a fan of big or small guild groups as I'm a pug myself and pick off tails all day and try and force those groups out of objectives.Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.I've also been zerged by Mag many times so it's not exactly an outnumbered server esp in t4 where somehow you guys are.And yes support is supposed to rescue you before you go down and that's discord and grouped that helps that. Other pugs who can't see my health will only rez me not save me from being downed most times.

I just want to chime in here on one little detail. I love how common it is for people to label a Mag cloud as roamers. I think that's a compliment and a testament to the ability of many (not all) on the server. No one is zerging and calling it roaming, it's everyone else that sees us as such because we frequently manage to pick apart larger, and often times organized groups despite being tagless. We have a hive mentality and we communicate. Every server is this way to some degree, but I think Mag does it a bit better than most because not only do we communicate with each other, we're capable of carrying out pushes, bombs and snipes.

It is a very ganky server, no one's denying that. But it comes from the communication that a lot of servers lack. Many of us have friends that we party or squad with and all of us co-operate to get things done. If something is happening anywhere on the map there's a good chance everyone knows exactly what it is be it via Discord or chat.

Yeah, not sure anyone argues that Mag isn't good at what they do, or that they lack skill. Individually, they are more aware than a lot of what I see on TC. But, every time we face Mag it's always the same (and to be fair, FA and AR are doing the same thing). We have 10-30 Mag hanging out at one of our sentries, picking off people who have no awareness (we have 5-15). If we push them back, they double the number of people. If the numbers and fights are equal, they move to the other side of SMC to push the other server. It's the reason that people have the opinion of Mag that they do. It isn't people thinking they are "bad" or unskilled, it's that we can never get an even fight. Every 1v1 becomes a 1v5 as soon as the fight starts. And we never see the skirmishes or sieging of structures, unless they have twice our numbers.

[LetoII.3782]

Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

[Antioche.7034]

@Mauzi.5892 said:

@Antioche.7034 said:

@Mauzi.5892 said:

@"jpsssss.7530" said:I bet you play a cancer one-shot/nuke build. There are some builds with little to no counterplay options (

cough

thief and ranger *cough) and they always come out of the woodwork on no downstate weeks

this is just wrong. I see ranger and thieves ALL THE TIME. It's only during no-downstate-week, that you realize how much you suck, because you can't rally off of some random scrub.

I love the no downstate. Maybe people start playing with more caution and brain instead of going full zerk when they have no skill.

Imagine believing randomly getting oneshot by someone from stealth is being bad at the game. If that's what you call "Playing with more brain", no thanks.

Peh - leaaaase... WHO exactly is ONESHOTTING you from stealth?!Whait what do you say? There are thieves in WvW? Must be new...MAYBE dont play full glass-cannon and use some of those other gazllion attribute combinations the game offers. Like Soldiers maybe...It's EXACTLY people like you that run around with their META kitten build and in full zerk gear and then complain when they get outplayed by everybody and who rely on rally to be able to play. Adapt to the situation and get better at the game instead of being a sheep and complaining about change.

FACT: downed state is something that favors bad players more.

Imagine saying there are no thieves in no downstate week, to start with. Put more thoughts into your answers if you want to sounds credible.

I don't play full zerk, I play some equivalent of sage/menderbrand from sPvP lately, or DH sometimes. I also rarely get oneshot because I'm reactive enough to press my stunbreaks, dodges or aegis, and because most people playing those builds are terrible players. It's still incredible boring and stupid that they try to oneshot, fail miserably, stealth and port away, just to retry oneshotting you 15 seconds later. That's what I call retarded gameplay.

Btw, I have all of sPvP's top 250 titles if you're worried I don't know how to play and get outplayed by everybody. Not that it's impressive at all, but I don't usually run into much troubles in WvWs 1v1 or reasonnable 1vXs.

P.S : What an incredible surprise that you mention below you are playing some full zerk Deadeye builds. Read irony ofc.

[Antioche.7034]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@"jsp.6912" said:i imagine this guy who thinks he is skilled because he played a glass canon build and os a guy during the no downstate event.

He plays a warrior actually lmao I'm sure that doesn't change your mind at all though.

Imagine defending a mechanic where you don't really die after you die ;)

Also since February, specializing into glass cannon has had the worst return on investment of all time in GW2. No idea what you're complaining about.

Imagine wanting downstate to be permanant, so that people are encouraged to play annoying and stupid glass-cannon builds or annoying and stupid bunker builds. Even if it's easy to counter or avoid it would still be incredibly stupid and boring.

Maybe in WvW it has had the worst return on investment, and if that is the case, I see nothing wrong with it, aslong as it does not devolve into bunker meta. In sPvP though going full zerk has certainly had return on investment (See nades holo or reaper, Prev etc).

Also I don't think we should look at the balance of stuff with arguments like "This dude plays warrior so no oneshot problem". And I'm sure there are some people running full zerk axe warrior builds that can OS and get OS too.

[Jilora.9524]

@LetoII.3782 said:Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

You always chime in with some toxic hide on BL or stop complaining while you hug t3 SMC. Now which diamond hunt ranger are you? There's 3 but only one is in a constant state of backpeddle always staying exactly 1650 range away even when you outnumber and always ready to retreat into SMC. Most like to play all aspects of the mode not just hump SMC all day

[TheGrimm.5624]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.

If that's true, and it's true that downstate favors more numbers (duh how can you rez without more), why does the bigger side need another advantage?

:#

Be the bigger side then. If you like to engage when outnumbered everytime then that's a choice and we can't start removing stuff so the outnumbered side starts winning way more often because why should that happen? Why should some classes with stealth and mobility and evades or clones or immunes or w/e consistanly jump into an outnumbered situation and escape with a kill which is what happens all the time on no ds week. And unless they change a whole lot of things you can't just remove ds as it creates an even more uneven playing field. I know why you want it. I get it. Still don't get why never dieing and picking off some weak link all day isn't enough.

Can we agree there are multiple stages to the fight?

The first state is both sides are looking to down the other side. This first stage numbers should play more of a role. You brought more, it makes sense you have an edge.

The second stage is you have people downed and that's a fight to get them up. At this stage numbers still play an edge since the larger side will have more to still attack and get people up. Here is where some of us question should they still have so much of an edge? I think most would agree some edge makes sense, but does it have to be so steep?

The third stage is defeated. If defeated, a side with less has to respawn. Why should the larger side get an advantage here? Their player was also defeated. Why does only one side have to respawn? The third stage of the fight is also questionable. Shouldn't both have to respawn? A lot us seem to agree that downstate allows for more tactical play, but those tactics come into play in stage 2, at stage 3 they don't. No to mention as stated elsewhere shouldn't finishing them have more tactical play to it as well outside of bonus warscore?

Personally, pay people for downing people in stage 1, grants the feel of some accomplishment by being able to drop someone.

Reduce the advantage of numbers in stage 2 by reducing and standardizing health pools with considerations to glass vs tank, consider down abilities to either balance or standardize, and move rezing to 1 v1 to reduce impact of just numbers to do things but still give a slight edge to the side with more since they succeeded in bringing more to the fight. 'Do I rez or do I fight?' should be a decision that leads to more tactical play. Drop the squishy to force them into rez mode is not a new gameplay concept. Warband leader, havoc group, do you send in everyone or leave some to help downs? By going 1 to 1 we still keep the tactic of drawing people in to try to rez so you can drop more, but we reduce the advantage that the side with more gets by speed rezzing the downed. The side with numbers still hold an edge here since they can both attack and revive but the more the smaller side can drop the more resources it will require of the larger side.

Reward players again for defeating the other side in stage 3, and further reward them for finishing versus cleaving since it's higher risk/reward. If you don't require a respawn of all defeated then at least require finished players to have to respawn. You need a way for a smaller side to widdle away a larger one, which again allows for more tactical play. They have much more than us, how to we thin them out and make headway here? Having the hope to thin them out is what encourages people to come back to the fight versus just walk away. And I would hope most of us prefer fights versus just taking empty structures, so the more that encourages fights the better.

So the question is what encourages people to fight? I would say is it fun, is it impactful and will make a difference, is it worth the time, and does it reward. When discussing downstate it's about all 4 of those aspects. But, each player will be different, the question here can we all make our own points to better understand the other side? A subject wouldn't draw so many threads and discussions if it was just one way or another. And I don't think this is a EU vs NA, nor a roamer vs havoc vs warband vs zerg thing either. Personally I think it's about everyone having fun and how does the game meet that requirement while winning and losing?

Just my 2 cents. Good hunting.

[Jilora.9524]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

Again everything basically favors the side with more numbers not just ds.

If that's true, and it's true that downstate favors more numbers (duh how can you rez without more), why does the bigger side need another advantage?

:#

Be the bigger side then. If you like to engage when outnumbered everytime then that's a choice and we can't start removing stuff so the outnumbered side starts winning way more often because why should that happen? Why should some classes with stealth and mobility and evades or clones or immunes or w/e consistanly jump into an outnumbered situation and escape with a kill which is what happens all the time on no ds week. And unless they change a whole lot of things you can't just remove ds as it creates an even more uneven playing field. I know why you want it. I get it. Still don't get why never dieing and picking off some weak link all day isn't enough.

Can we agree there are multiple stages to the fight?

The first state is both sides are looking to down the other side. This first stage numbers should play more of a role. You brought more, it makes sense you have an edge.

The second stage is you have people downed and that's a fight to get them up. At this stage numbers still play an edge since the larger side will have more to still attack and get people up. Here is where some of us question should they still have so much of an edge? I think most would agree some edge makes sense, but does it have to be so steep?

The third stage is defeated. If defeated, a side with less has to respawn. Why should the larger side get an advantage here? Their player was also defeated. Why does only one side have to respawn? The third stage of the fight is also questionable. Shouldn't both have to respawn? A lot us seem to agree that downstate allows for more tactical play, but those tactics come into play in stage 2, at stage 3 they don't. No to mention as stated elsewhere shouldn't finishing them have more tactical play to it as well outside of bonus warscore?

Personally, pay people for downing people in stage 1, grants the feel of some accomplishment by being able to drop someone.

Reduce the advantage of numbers in stage 2 by reducing and standardizing health pools with considerations to glass vs tank, consider down abilities to either balance or standardize, and move rezing to 1 v1 to reduce impact of just numbers to do things but still give a slight edge to the side with more since they succeeded in bringing more to the fight. 'Do I rez or do I fight?' should be a decision that leads to more tactical play. Drop the squishy to force them into rez mode is not a new gameplay concept. Warband leader, havoc group, do you send in everyone or leave some to help downs? By going 1 to 1 we still keep the tactic of drawing people in to try to rez so you can drop more, but we reduce the advantage that the side with more gets by speed rezzing the downed. The side with numbers still hold an edge here since they can both attack and revive but the more the smaller side can drop the more resources it will require of the larger side.

Reward players again for defeating the other side in stage 3, and further reward them for finishing versus cleaving since it's higher risk/reward. If you don't require a respawn of all defeated then at least require finished players to have to respawn. You need a way for a smaller side to widdle away a larger one, which again allows for more tactical play. They have much more than us, how to we thin them out and make headway here? Having the hope to thin them out is what encourages people to come back to the fight versus just walk away. And I would hope most of us prefer fights versus just taking empty structures, so the more that encourages fights the better.

So the question is what encourages people to fight? I would say is it fun, is it impactful and will make a difference, is it worth the time, and does it reward. When discussing downstate it's about all 4 of those aspects. But, each player will be different, the question here can we all make our own points to better understand the other side? A subject wouldn't draw so many threads and discussions if it was just one way or another. And I don't think this is a EU vs NA, nor a roamer vs havoc vs warband vs zerg thing either. Personally I think it's about everyone having fun and how does the game meet that requirement while winning and losing?

Just my 2 cents. Good hunting.

I'm outnumbered often because I defend stuff. I'm not a zerger advocating to keep ds so I keep these advantages. You have to separate isolate down then cleave. Both sides have to wp. I mean unless you outnumbered 50-15 you keep the zerg in combat and cloud and they can't rez full dead either. This is harder when fighting a big guild but you start by picking off the pugs locking then in the keep and w/e it takes to get them to leave killing siege picking a few off till more come to reinforce you. All these threads are eliminate ds w/o changing everything which will result in some classes running rampant like you saw all week.

Now Ds needs to stay. I would be fine with standardized skills. All classes get 1 att one heal 1 interrupt maybe one 900 range port and the same health pool. Get rid of instant rez downed or auto finish skills like banner and gyro or signet. Slow rez speeds or limit to 1 rezzer. Eliminate rally. In a perfect world eliminate the other unfair advantages like stealth finish invulnerable finish mini engie finish thief start finish port away w/o interrupting type things that already allow classes to bypass ds

[LetoII.3782]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

You always chime in with some toxic hide on BL or stop complaining while you hug t3 SMC. Now which diamond hunt ranger are you? There's 3 but only one is in a constant state of backpeddle always staying exactly 1650 range away even when you outnumber and always ready to retreat into SMC. Most like to play all aspects of the mode not just hump SMC all day

Funny how smc has expended all the way to your spawn over the years. Dont pick on our pet boomer he's like 70

[Jilora.9524]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

You always chime in with some toxic hide on BL or stop complaining while you hug t3 SMC. Now which diamond hunt ranger are you? There's 3 but only one is in a constant state of backpeddle always staying exactly 1650 range away even when you outnumber and always ready to retreat into SMC. Most like to play all aspects of the mode not just hump SMC all day

Funny how smc has expended all the way to your spawn over the years. Dont pick on our pet boomer he's like 70

I'm not sos if that was a ref to this week. I'm not trying to pick on anyone. You just always make a comment I can't resist responding too

[LetoII.3782]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

You always chime in with some toxic hide on BL or stop complaining while you hug t3 SMC. Now which diamond hunt ranger are you? There's 3 but only one is in a constant state of backpeddle always staying exactly 1650 range away even when you outnumber and always ready to retreat into SMC. Most like to play all aspects of the mode not just hump SMC all day

Funny how smc has expended all the way to your spawn over the years. Dont pick on our pet boomer he's like 70

I'm not sos if that was a ref to this week. I'm not trying to pick on anyone. You just always make a comment I can't resist responding too

We've had your keep as well. I knew you were nsp because the text isnt upside down

[Jilora.9524]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:Years of shadowplay and still the same bs.No, youre not outnumbered, youre outgunned. Now go hide on a borderland

You always chime in with some toxic hide on BL or stop complaining while you hug t3 SMC. Now which diamond hunt ranger are you? There's 3 but only one is in a constant state of backpeddle always staying exactly 1650 range away even when you outnumber and always ready to retreat into SMC. Most like to play all aspects of the mode not just hump SMC all day

Funny how smc has expended all the way to your spawn over the years. Dont pick on our pet boomer he's like 70

I'm not sos if that was a ref to this week. I'm not trying to pick on anyone. You just always make a comment I can't resist responding too

We've had your keep as well. I knew you were nsp because the text isnt upside down

This account is JQ but do have accounts on AR and NSP but dont play as much on those. They more to see scores and ques and do dailys

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Antioche.7034 said:

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

@jsp.6912 said:i imagine this guy who thinks he is skilled because he played a glass canon build and os a guy during the no downstate event.

He plays a warrior actually lmao I'm sure that doesn't change your mind at all though.

Imagine defending a mechanic where you don't really die after you die ;)

Also since February, specializing into glass cannon has had the worst return on investment of all time in GW2. No idea what you're complaining about.

Imagine wanting downstate to be permanant, so that people are encouraged to play annoying and stupid glass-cannon builds or annoying and stupid bunker builds. Even if it's easy to counter or avoid it would still be incredibly stupid and boring.

Maybe in WvW it has had the worst return on investment, and if that is the case, I see nothing wrong with it, aslong as it does not devolve into bunker meta. In sPvP though going full zerk has certainly had return on investment (See nades holo or reaper, Prev etc).

4/6 meta builds are Minstrel. It is too late to save the game from devolving into that, because when players go down their 3.5k armor buddies can pick them up and heal them to 100%, maybe even give full barrier and stealth. You say you dislike both high damage high risk builds and bunker builds, but you're clearly OK with letting one of those two run rampant.

This is the WVW forums, save PVP problems for PVP. Did you figure maybe everyone is going full zerk because there's a lot less amulets to try these days? And because Marauder damage is garbage ever since February? We have to deal with this stat called TOUGHNESS in WVW. And these runes called DURABILITY. They're pretty annoying.