NO Downstate should STAY permanently. - [Merged]

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Jeran.6850" said:

Its amazing how you deny the reality of the recent event, which is that at any time the opposing group is bigger, it makes the enemy not even try.

i saw the complete opposite. players charging in to their death trying to be a hero.

Are there some people that does? Are there some guild that (with the help of steath abuse) manage to win outnumbered? Yes, could have happended. Somewhere.

i pushed back with a band of players a bus 3 time larger several times. lots of hit and run. when they charged in our bus came from the side and the fight was as messy as it was glorious.

Overall, what i see is that any strategy is completely dumbstered in favor of numbers, roaming was even more "dead", class diversity was even more restricted, hiding behind "accs" was more common than even before.

tons of new build possibility without the need to secure downstate. no need to spam aoe like crazy to secure downstate.roaming was less a thing indeed. but as this was a short event alot of player was having fun fighting other bus or creating hunting parties.i did one, hunting for several minutes inside a lost stonemist. roamers becomes hunters, running around larger groups or killing at spawn.

The wish for removing the downstate by a certain type of playerbase (which is still a minority by the way), will completely backfire, IF the downstate will be removed...i really wonder how these people can not already see it?

downstate has always been a PvE mechanic in gw2. it never was balanced excpet for the number of rally bot per downed reduced to one...so because there is too many downstate lovers in WvW, making no downstate a permanent thing would empty WvW even more?i don't know if i agree or disagree. too many players already quit WvW who would be very much for no downstate.i knew alot of fighting guild just stop because blobs are getting stronger and stronger after each patch. roaming died too for a reason.

you may disagree but no downstate is fun for alot of players too. and the fact that they have experienced that will leave a bad taste in their mouth now that they know how much more enjoyable WvW is with no downstate.

@"Mokk.2397" said:

AGAIN. If your going to run into a battle where your outnumbered 2 to 1 it makes no difference if theirs a down state or not . PICK YOUR BATTLES!!!If are roaming and encounter 2 or more opponents of equal skill as you , it would not matter if there is a downstate or not. Now assuming you can take down all the opponents of equal skill when there is a no down state then we need to look at why your class and skills are over performing and not looking to change the the aspects of the game to serve a minority.

i want an opportunity to win fight outnumbered or deal significant damage instead of hiding , waiting to become a bigger group.i am sick of running around to find a "balanced" or advantageous fight.of course downstate has a major influence in winning a 1v2 or not. it downstate is a chore to deal with and i am sick of having to play very specific skills to deal with that.

[Jeran.6850]

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:

you may disagree but no downstate is fun for alot of players too. and the fact that they have experienced that will leave a bad taste in their mouth now that they know how much more enjoyable WvW is with no downstate.

i cant disagree on this. There are people enyoing the event, there is no doubt.

i did have a short conversation with one my guild members about the event. His argument why he likes it, was, that the "rallybots" are erased from the equation... i tried to explain, how it will be literaly impossible to play a large scale damage based staff weaver without the downstate, telling him about the traits i have to pick, the rotation (and why), and the stats...knowing, that he is a "part time" elementalist to.He was SO amazed about my low HP (14k) so impressed by my average "damage number" (which is, all in all, around 4k power.... and there is my 80% crit change,100 % with fury, too, which is a boon easy to achieve), or my about 260% ferocity when attuned to air....

i ask him, what class he plays during the " no downstate"-event, and his reply was - he likes to play his mesmer, his ele isnt worth the trouble.

[Jaruselka.5943]

@Justine.6351 said:Yeah standardizing health and perhaps downed state skills wouldn't be a bad idea. There should also be a tangible reward for stomping too like recharging skills to some degree.

Agreed. Downed state skills should be normalized across classes. Right now there are MAJOR imbalances between DS skills with certain one’s being utterly worthless (i.e. Engineer DS skills especially in WvW).

[Svarty.8019]

SKILL is not necessarily desirable.

I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".

If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

[Svarty.8019]

@Hadi.6025 said:There's no reason i should be getting hit AS hard if not HARDER by a player that is on the ground defeated, that virtually makes no sense.What doesn't make sense about it?

[DeceiverX.8361]

@"Svarty.8019" said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

[Svarty.8019]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

This is not a sport, it is a passtime, a hobby, something you don't do as a job. It's deceitful to compare it to a "ProFESSIONAL" sportsperson, where their livelyhood depends on the outcome.

I like strawmen as much as the next strawman, but meh, nice try. I guess your name is appropriate, at least.

WvW is a unique gamemode. As much as the PvP crowd has desperately tried to take over with consistent whining on the forums, and GETTING THEIR WAY for the most part, the mode at it's heart is about making friends and doing things together. The fact that those things tend to be zapping enemies or being zapped is a secondary concern to many of us.

The sooner we all (including the developers) acknowledge that not everybody here is trying to be amazing at 1v1, the better off we'll all be.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

Everyone deserves a participation ribbon!

Product of the times, I guess.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@"Svarty.8019" said:WvW is a unique gamemode. As much as the PvP crowd has desperately tried to take over with consistent whining on the forums, and GETTING THEIR WAY for the most part, the mode at it's heart is about making friends and doing things together. The fact that those things tend to be zapping enemies or being zapped is a secondary concern to many of us.

The sooner we all (including the developers) acknowledge that not everybody here is trying to be amazing at 1v1, the better off we'll all be.

This right here. The fact that it was PvP, but not the "tryhards" of the "real" PvP, but mixed with scouting and tactics and busting down walls and sneaking behind enemy lines to cut off supplies to a tower while the main army/zerg hit it is what attracted me to the mode in the first place.

I don't want it to be 100% PvP, that's not what I started for. I like the mix, the balance of elements and options to contribute.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Jeran.6850" said:

i did have a short conversation with one my guild members about the event. His argument why he likes it, was, that the "rallybots" are erased from the equation... i tried to explain, how it will be literaly impossible to play a large scale damage based staff weaver without the downstate, telling him about the traits i have to pick, the rotation (and why), and the stats...knowing, that he is a "part time" elementalist to.

i hate when players use the elem downstate as a gameplay loop in their rotation as an argument against no downstate.having to rely on downstate because you know you will get downed just isn't right and shouldn't be an argument in favour of downstate.the issue here is the elem's balance.you have very powerfull elem builds in sPvP that aren't worth it in WvW since they are melee based. decent for roaming tho.

i ask him, what class he plays during the " no downstate"-event, and his reply was - he likes to play his mesmer, his ele isnt worth the trouble.

well of course. staff has long chaneling time for average damage compared to necro, revenant or ranger AOE damage.guard (and its specs) has way better support. druide has way better raw healing and cc.the best elem AOE spells got nerfed (ice bow, meteor shower.) most elem heavy hitting aoe are slow to cast and fall down.. and if you go for full damage stats you get killed in a few hit. but elem with support stats is too tanky. this is because of the way they builded the elem.

this remind me of an 1v1 i had with a thief. (several times as we came back after death.i was playing elem D/D with power/vita/condi gear. i had to spam all my spells available everytime i could just to survive while i was trying to kill him.there was times i died, times i killed him and one time ended in a tie ( i died but he walked on a burning circle and died 3s after... :3 ).i had all this trouble just to get to kill. with other class? it is way easier and safer to do the same thing.

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:This right here. The fact that it was PvP, but not the "tryhards" of the "real" PvP, but mixed with scouting and tactics and busting down walls and sneaking behind enemy lines to cut off supplies to a tower while the main army/zerg hit it is what attracted me to the mode in the first place.

and yet you players are the first complaining when someone destroy your enjoyment by tryharding.

I don't want it to be 100% PvP, that's not what I started for. I like the mix, the balance of elements and options to contribute.

you can now earn chests and xp for rewards track in WvW by staying afk at spawn.also WvW is a mass PvP gaemmode. the main goal of WvW is to fight the other server. it is not the right gamemode for PvE. there was EOTM for that but it died.scouting, escorting a dolyack or checking defenses in forts (or even sneaky attack an undefended fort) has nothing to do with downstate anyway.the goal here is to make fights better.

[God.2708]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:This right here. The fact that it was PvP, but not the "tryhards" of the "real" PvP, but mixed with scouting and tactics and busting down walls and sneaking behind enemy lines to cut off supplies to a tower while the main army/zerg hit it is what attracted me to the mode in the first place.

and yet you players are the first complaining when someone destroy your enjoyment by tryharding.

I don't want it to be 100% PvP, that's not what I started for. I like the mix, the balance of elements and options to contribute.

you can now earn chests and xp for rewards track in WvW by staying afk at spawn.also WvW is a mass PvP gaemmode. the main goal of WvW is to fight the other server. it is not the right gamemode for PvE. there was EOTM for that but it died.scouting, escorting a dolyack or checking defenses in forts (or even sneaky attack an undefended fort) has nothing to do with downstate anyway.the goal here is to make fights better.

WvW is an RvR.

The mode shines when the full brunt of the tactical, operational, and strategic decisions are allowed. The entire purpose of WvW is to engage in PvP with other players without them even necessarily being on your screen. If you simply want big group fights, you slam your fists on the keyboard that anet still hasn't provided a proper healthy place to do so despite displaying they have the capability in piecemeal fashion several times over.

That is, however, not what WvW should be in an idealized sense. That's the entire backdrop for people like you and your complaints. You want to be rewarded for taking a small band of players and performing guerilla operations on a much larger force and see it succeed. Which is wonderful. What is absurd is that you want that reward to come from fight balance and not game mode balance. There should be more to taking down a large force than just being slightly quicker on the draw. That's lazy. That's being the casual player you keep harping about others being when they 'take advantage' of downstate.

[Mokk.2397]

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:i want an opportunity to win fight outnumbered or deal significant damage instead of hiding , waiting to become a bigger group.i am sick of running around to find a "balanced" or advantageous fight.of course downstate has a major influence in winning a 1v2 or not. it downstate is a chore to deal with and i am sick of having to play very specific skills to deal with that.

What? Why would you need specific skills ?How the heck can it be a chore to deal with?. Theirs 9 variations to downstate . All easy to remember because ALL are predictable. Most only requiring a stability to deal a stomp . It's not that hard .

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:i want an opportunity to win fight outnumbered or deal significant damage instead of hiding , waiting to become a bigger group.i am sick of running around to find a "balanced" or advantageous fight.of course downstate has a major influence in winning a 1v2 or not. it downstate is a chore to deal with and i am sick of having to play very specific skills to deal with that.

What? Why would you need specific skills ?How the heck can it be a chore to deal with?. Theirs 9 variations to downstate . All easy to remember because ALL are predictable. Most only requiring a stability to deal a stomp . It's not that hard .

Dude, don't you know [stability] or [invulnerable] or [bait out the downed CC skill] + [Press F] is some truly L33T skills man, not everyone can do that.

[Mokk.2397]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Dude, don't you know [stability] or [invulnerable] or [bait out the downed CC skill] + [Press F] is some truly L33T skills man, not everyone can do that.

DUDE are you freaking serious? I'm a mediocre player and can do it with no problem . Holy smokes it's not hard !

[Shroud.2307]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

This is not a sport, it is a passtime, a hobby, something you don't do as a job. It's deceitful to compare it to a "ProFESSIONAL" sportsperson, where their livelyhood depends on the outcome.

I like strawmen as much as the next strawman, but meh, nice try. I guess your name is appropriate, at least.

WvW is a unique gamemode. As much as the PvP crowd has desperately tried to take over with consistent whining on the forums, and GETTING THEIR WAY for the most part, the mode at it's heart is about making friends and doing things together. The fact that those things tend to be zapping enemies or being zapped is a secondary concern to many of us.

The sooner we all (including the developers) acknowledge that not everybody here is trying to be amazing at 1v1, the better off we'll all be.

WvW is not about 1 v 1, correct. But it is a diverse environment with a variety of ways to be played. Some require greater effort and knowledge than others and are demanding of the player(s) involved to be skilled and to improve to succeed. The way WvW has evolved, both via the community and balance, has severely lessened the reward of intelligent game play on a smaller scale. Many players who prefer this aspect of WvW are rightfully frustrated as their efforts are so often squandered.

People are entitled to play WvW as casually or as seriously as they like, as they are the rest of the game. But there should be no prejudice against those who seek to better themselves whether it's for the sake of their server or for personal gain. Everyone should be rewarded equally, though the means by which those rewards come may vary - some through material, others through discipline. It is ANet's responsibility to appease everyone to the best of their ability and not to favor either side.

If you think it is wrong or silly for people to want to get better, that's okay. But demanding others appeal to your vision of what WvW should be is called bigotry and I doubt if you'll get much support for being so asinine.

[Baldrick.8967]

By 'who are skilled' did he mean using a macro on a thief is now classed as 'skilled'? oops failed to down that player in .3 of a second I'd better reset the fight now poof into stealth and hope my other two thief brothers and the mes and engi manage to finish him off....

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@"God.2708" said:

WvW is an RvR.

The mode shines when the full brunt of the tactical, operational, and strategic decisions are allowed. The entire purpose of WvW is to engage in PvP with other players without them even necessarily being on your screen. If you simply want big group fights, you slam your fists on the keyboard that anet still hasn't provided a proper healthy place to do so despite displaying they have the capability in piecemeal fashion several times over.

That is, however, not what WvW should be in an idealized sense. That's the entire backdrop for people like you and your complaints. You want to be rewarded for taking a small band of players and performing guerilla operations on a much larger force and see it succeed. Which is wonderful. What is absurd is that you want that reward to come from fight balance and not game mode balance. There should be more to taking down a large force than just being slightly quicker on the draw. That's lazy. That's being the casual player you keep harping about others being when they 'take advantage' of downstate.

no wait, you misunderstood me. i am only speaking about fight balance here. i agree that WvW should me much more. but lets face the truth here, you get nothing for winning. you can capture any territry you want after every 5 min of it being capped in wahtever order you want. the current tick system create too much disparity between winning and losing servers. (but you don't get reward depending on who is winning or losing anyway.)on this thread however i am only talking about fights and the impact of downstate.the thing is, the only thing that matter in WvW now is the enjoyment you get via the fights. players don't roam to take camps anymore, they do so to find players to fight with. playing for the server has lost its meaning a long time ago.

i made a post about how to make WvW a better objective focused gamemode here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1250370

[ledernierrempart.6871]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:i want an opportunity to win fight outnumbered or deal significant damage instead of hiding , waiting to become a bigger group.i am sick of running around to find a "balanced" or advantageous fight.of course downstate has a major influence in winning a 1v2 or not. it downstate is a chore to deal with and i am sick of having to play very specific skills to deal with that.

What? Why would you need specific skills ?How the heck can it be a chore to deal with?. Theirs 9 variations to downstate . All easy to remember because ALL are predictable. Most only requiring a stability to deal a stomp . It's not that hard .

in 1v1 it is hardly a problem. but hey, WvW is not just about 1v1 is it? also you may be very low on HP after successfully downing your opponent.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@"ledernierrempart.6871" said:i want an opportunity to win fight outnumbered or deal significant damage instead of hiding , waiting to become a bigger group.i am sick of running around to find a "balanced" or advantageous fight.of course downstate has a major influence in winning a 1v2 or not. it downstate is a chore to deal with and i am sick of having to play very specific skills to deal with that.

What? Why would you need specific skills ?How the heck can it be a chore to deal with?. Theirs 9 variations to downstate . All easy to remember because ALL are predictable. Most only requiring a stability to deal a stomp . It's not that hard .

Dude, don't you know [stability] or [invulnerable] or [bait out the downed CC skill] + [Press F] is some truly L33T skills man, not everyone can do that.

you could be very low on health upon downing the enemy. or you had to use some key stab ability to win the fight and you don't have anything to finish the downed without problem.yes on paper you have lots of different ways to deal with a finisher. but in reality, how many time you couldn't finish your target properly due to skill in cd or downed pressure or a +1 coming to help the downed? i often see players just dps the downed instead of taking the risk of performing a finisher. simply pressing F on a downed in a team fight, even with some stab, could mean death without a psecific skill to let you perform the finisher without taking too much risk.yes it is a hassle to have and deal with a new HP bar you can't CC that may potentially revive when you already made effort (debatable but you get the idea) to down you opponent when you tried to kill him.. especially with a support class/build nearby...

[Dawdler.8521]

@ledernierrempart.6871 said:

@"God.2708" said:

WvW is an RvR.

The mode shines when the full brunt of the tactical, operational, and strategic decisions are allowed. The entire purpose of WvW is to engage in PvP with other players without them even necessarily being on your screen. If you simply want big group fights, you slam your fists on the keyboard that anet still hasn't provided a proper healthy place to do so despite displaying they have the capability in piecemeal fashion several times over.

That is, however, not what WvW should be in an idealized sense. That's the entire backdrop for people like you and your complaints. You want to be rewarded for taking a small band of players and performing guerilla operations on a much larger force and see it succeed. Which is wonderful. What is absurd is that you want that reward to come from fight balance and not game mode balance. There should be more to taking down a large force than just being slightly quicker on the draw. That's lazy. That's being the casual player you keep harping about others being when they 'take advantage' of downstate.

no wait, you misunderstood me. i am only speaking about fight balance here. i agree that WvW should me much more. but lets face the truth here, you get nothing for winning. you can capture any territry you want after every 5 min of it being capped in wahtever order you want. the current tick system create too much disparity between winning and losing servers. (but you don't get reward depending on who is winning or losing anyway.)If you get nothing by winning, what do you loose by loosing?

Just wondering.

Its impossible to look at each system in a bubble. Objectives are fighting. Fighting "for the server" is a sideeffect for most people. In fact for some reason only "fight commanders" seems to be hardcore enough and with the resources to do it for the server. But sssh dont tell them that. It'll hurt their feelings. Small groups are just faffing about.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

Everyone deserves a participation ribbon!

Product of the times, I guess.

Is the ribbon the next currency?

D:

[jsp.6912]

i imagine this guy who thinks he is skilled because he played a glass canon build and os a guy during the no downstate event.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@ArchonWing.9480 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:

1. SKILL is not necessarily desirable.
2. I would prefer it if people didn't justify everything with "this/that should be deleted because it doesn't promote skilled play".
3. If you demand that everybody who pays RL money to the gem store be skilled to play the game, the company may very well go bust.

Why the hell would anyone play a competitive game/mode with skilled play being rewarded as not being a, if not THE primary concern? At the very least, why should there ever be mechanics that actively work against promoting people to do better and being rewarded for it?

That's like saying pro sports should solely be based on a raffle of random civilians and not athletic accomplishments. That makes absolutely no sense lol.

If you don't want to win by being better at the game than your opponent, why are you playing player versus player games/formats at all?...

Everyone deserves a participation ribbon!

Product of the times, I guess.

Is the ribbon the next currency?

D:

Dear gods it better go in the wallet.

[TheGrimm.5624]

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Yeah standardizing health and perhaps downed state skills wouldn't be a bad idea. There should also be a tangible reward for stomping too like recharging skills to some degree.

I think I'd want to keep some semblance of "class identity" in downed state, tbh. But the inconsistent effectiveness should probably be addressed somehow. Enforcing consistent character stats once downed (kinda like how everyone has the same hp/armor/damage when mounted) might be a good idea, too -- it would get us away from stuff like "this condi build does a lot of damage when downed / this condi build does almost no damage when downed" or the tedium of trying to cleave down enemies with 3.5k armor.

Your idea for some small reward for finishing enemies is also a good one, imo.

How about if you finish them, they have to respawn, no being revived until they do respawn. That way there is a risk and reward for going the extra bit? Would say standardize health but factor in vitality/tough.

[Naxos.2503]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Yeah standardizing health and perhaps downed state skills wouldn't be a bad idea. There should also be a tangible reward for stomping too like recharging skills to some degree.

I think I'd want to keep some semblance of "class identity" in downed state, tbh. But the inconsistent effectiveness should probably be addressed somehow. Enforcing consistent character stats once downed (kinda like how everyone has the same hp/armor/damage when mounted) might be a good idea, too -- it would get us away from stuff like "this condi build does a lot of damage when downed / this condi build does almost no damage when downed" or the tedium of trying to cleave down enemies with 3.5k armor.

Your idea for some small reward for finishing enemies is also a good one, imo.

How about if you finish them, they have to respawn, no being revived until they do respawn. That way there is a risk and reward for going the extra bit? Would say standardize health but factor in vitality/tough.

That makes more sense and seems more fair.

I'm also in favor of giving a little extra to players who do finish their kills. Revive speed could also be hampered to further balance it out.

On the flip side, I do think that some skills who revive players should likely stay so as to not further narrow down build potentials. The last thing anyone want are extreme builds where it's all offense, or all defense. Support is nice too, and someone who uses the right skill at the right time shouldn't be penalized, not to mention such skills often have a long cooldown.