My honest feelings about map mob difficulty in PoF

[maddoctor.2738]

@"battledrone.8315" said:no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

If I recall they "changed the rules" when you reached Orr and have been making changes you don't like ever since for 8 years. You are asking them to go back to how it was 8 years ago. To use your own phrasing, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

[maddoctor.2738]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:How would you feel about a reduction in aggro range to pre-PoF levels? Would this trivialize navigation in PoF? Has that been the result for you in HoT?

The reason they increased the range in Path of Fire is mounts and the much flatter terrain. Heart of Thorns is full of tighter spaces and closed off passages, there are numerous choke points too. Heart of Thorns navigation is already trivialized by the addition of flying mounts, due to the terrain being so vertical and no mobs can actually fly (or jump) to engage players at different heights. I don't think reducing the aggro range in Path of Fire is a good idea, it will create this weird effect you can zig-zag on your raptor inside a Forged camp and not trigger any mobs. You can already do this in Orr for example, which also has many flat areas.

That said, what they could do is:a) have two ranges, one when mounted, one when not, if a player is mounted, increase the range at which mobs engage the player. That way navigation with a mount remains as is but if a player walks/runs or is dismounted, they are not swarmed by mobs as they try to get away and mount up again.b) reduce the alert radius. When a mob is alerted and it moves to attack a player, it will also alert nearby allies. The current alert radius seems to be the same as the aggro radius. This means if I trigger a mob at a 1000 units distance, it can trigger another mob at another 1000 unit distance from itself. In a sense I'm gonna fight a mob that is 2000 units away, and I might not even know it exists, because I have no line of sight to it.

The desert is thinly populated compared to the jungle, this isn't really felt due to how the mobs engage at a longer distance, but at the same time they alert their friends at a longer distance, when you are suddenly being harassed by multiple mobs you never saw, it doesn't mean you entered their aggro radius, it means you entered the radius of one of them, and that one triggered the others. This creates the false perception that the aggro radius in Path of Fire is gigantic, it is double the range of pre-POF, but not as excessive as it feels at times. Sometimes it feels like the entire map is chasing you.

[The Boz.2038]

@"battledrone.8315" said:why bother? how long, before i would have to change that too? and even IF i found a build , that CAN play, who says, that it is fun for me?no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.writing on a forum is NOT the same , as spending days in content, that i dont likeSee, you're not even reading the post.I didn't say "change into a better build", I said "learn how to craft a build". This will not take long, really, and will make changes and "changes" to your build much easier to do.But, you know, you want to not change this late in the game, because it is just bad design. You want the game to change. Because that... isn't bad design?

[Mesis.2951]

Open world ... hard? ROFL.If anything they should buff it.

[Shroud.2307]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Here I am doing Drizzlewood on core Power Engineer farming the bridge in the center of the map while people gather caches because I enjoy seeing how long I can stay alive while 10 - 15 Elites bash on me.

I also love testing my ability against Champions when doing World Completion, of which I made a Thread about on Reddit recently, because it's fun to me to be challenged and to learn.Some Champions are more fun than others because they have clearer tells and better terrain, others have too many things I can't avoid and it's less about my ability and more that the Champion isn't designed for only one person to be fighting it.

I think it's important to have a good mixture of both easy and difficult. Some mobs should be dangerous. If you don't enjoy stressing over it you know to avoid them after learning your lesson. If you like a good fight you might seek those enemies out because they're the ones that are most fun for you.To me, that's Drizzlewood mobs versus core Tyria mobs. I particularly enjoy Drizzlewood enemies because many of them have very clear tells and counters, and different types adding to a fight can be a bigger problem than others. The Necromancer-y ones for example are always an "uh-oh" if I pull more than one, and I enjoy that because it means I have to adapt in the moment or develop a strategy when approaching them.

I wouldn't have a problem with ANet making more mobs easier in the forthcoming Expansion, but I would if they all were. I think there should always be a good mixture rather than entirely one or the other, because again, different strokes.

[kharmin.7683]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:While this is not specifically a complaint about difficulty, a reduction in aggro ranges to something more similar to HoT would likely go a long way toward improving quality of life for those who do struggle. So, while I disagree with some of the specific complaints being made here, arguing them back and forth is a waste of time as what I want is likely also what they want. However, to those who disagree that this is a problem requiring a solution, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

How would you feel about a reduction in aggro range to pre-PoF levels? Would this trivialize navigation in PoF? Has that been the result for you in HoT?

Reducing the aggro ranges would make the PoF maps more enjoyable for me, for sure. I can manage the baddies out there quite well enough for the casual player that I am. The radius is my main complaint.

[battledrone.8315]

@The Boz.2038 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:why bother? how long, before i would have to change that too? and even IF i found a build , that CAN play, who says, that it is fun for me?no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.writing on a forum is NOT the same , as spending days in content, that i dont likeSee, you're not even reading the post.I didn't say "change into a better build", I said "learn how to craft a build". This will not take long, really, and will make changes and "changes" to your build much easier to do.But, you know, you want to not change this late in the game, because it is just bad design. You want the game to change. Because that... isn't bad design?

why should i learn buildcrafting, if im not supposed to use it? and a TUTORIAL would prolly be handy BEFORE i made my build ..an IN GAME tutorialbut its all moot anyway, theyre only making story content...and im not gonna touch that with ten feet poleid rather retire my pact commander, while he still has a shred of dignity left in him

[The Boz.2038]

If you're not supp...Know what? You are absolutely right. Have a pleasant day.

[battledrone.8315]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

If I recall they "changed the rules" when you reached Orr and have been making changes you don't like ever since for 8 years. You are asking them to go back to how it was 8 years ago. To use your own phrasing, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

well, at least they have made orr playable. they have also nerfed hot. time to go for for the rest now...its only a matter of timeremember, they even had to nerf the core game too...what does THAT tell you?

[Linken.6345]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

If I recall they "changed the rules" when you reached Orr and have been making changes you don't like ever since for 8 years. You are asking them to go back to how it was 8 years ago. To use your own phrasing, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

well, at least they have made orr playable. they have also nerfed hot. time to go for for the rest now...its only a matter of timeremember, they even had to nerf the core game too...what does THAT tell you?

That some players cant press 2 buttons at once.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

If I recall they "changed the rules" when you reached Orr and have been making changes you don't like ever since for 8 years. You are asking them to go back to how it was 8 years ago. To use your own phrasing, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

well, at least they have made orr playable. they have also nerfed hot. time to go for for the rest now...its only a matter of timeremember, they even had to nerf the core game too...what does THAT tell you?

Contrary to popular belief both of those so called nerfs where minor. Regarding Orr, they simply adjusted population and removed the ability of a single mob to pull players (those with the anchor). Then they added a new mob (Risen Noble) that can teleport on the player (and can 1-shot unprepared players too) to compensate. But most important thing is that Orr mobs are damage sponges that do no damage (except for the above Risen Noble) and spam crowd control abilities. That's not difficult/challenging, that's annoying. As a simple test, I can use my Elementalist in green assorted gear, slot Signet of Restoration and face tank, using only auto attacks, ANY regular mob in Orr. That IS the difficulty and challenge level of Orr, and that has always been the difficulty in Orr.

As for Heart of Thorns, outside adjusting mob density in areas around waypoints and removing the ability of Itzel Shadow Leapers to completely ignore ranged attacks there hasn't been any other change. The so called "nerf" in Heart of Thorns was more about how players got their rewards, their participation, and nothing to do with mob difficulty/challenge, which remained unchanged.

Remember, the hardest hitting foes in the game, like Young Karka who have been the bane of unprepared since November 2012, have never been nerfed. What does THAT tell you?

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"Shroud.2307" said:

I think it's important to have a good mixture of both easy and difficult. Some mobs should be dangerous. If you don't enjoy stressing over it you know to avoid them after learning your lesson. If you like a good fight you might seek those enemies out because they're the ones that are most fun for you.

I also like to see how much aggro from dangerous mobs I can pull, as well as soloing champions whenever I have a chance.

The issue is not justt about "easy and difficult", however. Many of us in this thread don't find the open world fights difficult, but rather just far more annoying than they need to be.

[SunTzu.4513]

why should i learn buildcrafting, if im not supposed to use it? and a TUTORIAL would prolly be handy BEFORE i made my build ..an IN GAME tutorial but its all moot >anyway, theyre only making story content...and im not gonna touch that with ten feet poleid rather retire my pact commander, while he still has a shred of dignity left in him

There is literally no buildcrafting needed for OW/Story. Just adjust. Read up the traits and what they do and choose what seems right for you. Same goes with utility skills and the weapons. Ironicly even without adjusting you can clean all areas of the game with grren gear easily as long as you know how to dodge, read the tells, clean condis, break breakbars and how to prioritize some mobs over others to kill.

[Linken.6345]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:no, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

If I recall they "changed the rules" when you reached Orr and have been making changes you don't like ever since for 8 years. You are asking them to go back to how it was 8 years ago. To use your own phrasing, changing the rules so late in the game is just bad design.

well, at least they have made orr playable. they have also nerfed hot. time to go for for the rest now...its only a matter of timeremember, they even had to nerf the core game too...what does THAT tell you?

Contrary to popular belief both of those so called nerfs where minor. Regarding Orr, they simply adjusted population and removed the ability of a single mob to pull players (those with the anchor). Then they added a new mob (Risen Noble) that can teleport on the player (and can 1-shot unprepared players too) to compensate. But most important thing is that Orr mobs are damage sponges that do no damage (except for the above Risen Noble) and spam crowd control abilities. That's not difficult/challenging, that's annoying. As a simple test, I can use my Elementalist in green assorted gear, slot Signet of Restoration and face tank, using only auto attacks, ANY regular mob in Orr. That IS the difficulty and challenge level of Orr, and that has always been the difficulty in Orr.

As for Heart of Thorns, outside adjusting mob density in areas around waypoints and removing the ability of Itzel Shadow Leapers to completely ignore ranged attacks there hasn't been any other change. The so called "nerf" in Heart of Thorns was more about how players got their rewards, their participation, and nothing to do with mob difficulty/challenge, which remained unchanged.

Remember, the hardest hitting foes in the game, like Young Karka who have been the bane of unprepared since November 2012, have never been nerfed. What does THAT tell you?

if those nerfs were so minor, why are you fighting so hard against more? and i have seen both orr and hot literally CRAMMED with mobs, you almost couldnt see theground, they were simply flooding the players there, so i call BS on your "minor" nerfs. i didnt touch southsun before i had done (or at least tried) everything else.i did map completion on my necro, havent touched it with any other toon. and im not going to either. horrible experiment.

Because they dont have much challenge now and dont want even less with more nerfs?

[BIMBLE.7952]

Personally, I love the place. I like the fact that you have to keep your wits about you and that feeling that there is danger around every corner, to coin a phrase...

I enjoy going there to test out new builds/gear set-ups and putting skills to the test.

I guess if you enjoy rolling over mobs, or - more to the point - going sight-seeing, you best stick to other places.

[maddoctor.2738]

The changes we got with the so called Orr and HOT nerfs are very well documented and I presented them above. Anyone claiming that they were more significant needs to provide some evidence to prove it or move along.

[SunTzu.4513]

We need also to take the power creep into acount if we are talking about orr. I remember a time even after the nerfs to Orr where those areas were still quite deadly to some builds/classes or if you were running without condi cleans. This together with mounts has trivialized these areas even more. Same happened to the HoT areas. One could play the devils advocate and say: You see you can skip or just delete the mobs in older areas so easy, it's time to tune them up...

[AliamRationem.5172]

@SunTzu.4513 said:We need also to take the power creep into acount if we are talking about orr. I remember a time even after the nerfs to Orr where those areas were still quite deadly to some builds/classes or if you were running without condi cleans. This together with mounts has trivialized these areas even more. Same happened to the HoT areas. One could play the devils advocate and say: You see you can skip or just delete the mobs in older areas so easy, it's time to tune them up...

I wouldn't say PoF elite specs introduced much power creep in comparison to HoT elite specs overall, though both are clearly examples of power creep compared to core. The addition of masteries with combat implications (e.g. special action skills, mount engage attacks) has had a pretty significant impact, though. But since leaping into a pile of enemies with the raptor tail spin attack can feel pretty satisfying, I'm not exactly complaining about it!

[Fuchslein.8639]

@mindcircus.1506 said:A few of honest questions to those who agree with the OP:

1. Are there any specific areas on the PoF maps where you think there are problems?
2. Are there any mobs/enemy types that you feel are specifically overtuned?
3. Would you describe yourself as a new, intermediate or veteran player?

I am an Veteran at GW2. But started a few months ago new, because GW2 no longer made fun for me.So I can speak from a perspective where I can say that I am a semi-good player who has cleared raids every week a good 2 years ago. DMG numbers were never a problem for me, not only on the Golem, but also in the raid itself where I always 'fought' for first place with two friends. I had no problems clearing the most HP's both in HOT and in POF solo, both with my Ele and even less with my Mesmer. And that despite a bad build and bad equipment as a 'new player'.

But I took my time for the first masteries and still don't have all the masteries that make these areas more pleasant in terms of dodging. Until a while ago I didn't even have the normal dodge skill of the Jackal on all my mounts. And I think that's the sticking point. Even when I was careful, I was constantly getting pulled off the mount.I personally can't name any special zones, because I'm not so much into the story and everything in GW2. In the beginning it was all the initial POF maps. There was no corner where I did not have to watch out when I just wanted to look at the maps. And bad are all the mobs that attack at range, as I said in my first post here. There are heaps of mobs that attack you from far away, where you have zero chance to attack back because you don't reach them yet.And I don't find any of the MObs hard per se. But when you have a few of them sticking to your ass, it's annoying(as i already said). Especially if you just want to enjoy GW2 like everyone always told you before POF existed.

As many here in the thread have therefore already said. And what was long before ignored until the last two pages.A change in the aggro range would be very beneficial.

[Einlanzer.1627]

The bottom line is that PoF mobs operate as if those zones are high density meta zones when they actually work better as exploration/casual zones, hence they need a nerf to aggro range and spawn times.

[LegendsOfTheWist.7591]

You know, I logged into my alt-account for the first time in a few months yesterday. I had hate mail from this thread in it. I had nothing better to do so I whispered the player, talked with him and learned a few things.

1. He was a WvW player that wanted to run a "One Size Fits All" build. Tougher PvE content isn't suitable excessive defensive traits. His traits were a mess.
2. He was running 3 stun-breaks and excessive condition-cleansing with Fire/Air/Weaver - Mist Form, Armor of Earth & the Burn Cleanse Cantrip (fighting Fire Djinn).
3. He was running the grandmaster "Blind Foes whom you burn," while fighting Veteran Djinn (defiant & immune to blind, generally) over the more offensive skills.
4. I suggested to him that he should try casting Glyph of Storms in Earth Attunement for the pulsing AoE blind/storm.
5. I suggested that he run Fire signet in place of one of his stun-breaks, as well as dropping one of his offensive trait-lines (Fire/Air) for Arcane/Defense. Doing so would allow him to take evasive arcana which would turn his dodge in water into a condi-cleanse and his dodge in earth into a blast finisher (as well as Arcane/Shield proc on %)
6. I also suggested that he could consider taking earth traits for the "Diamond Skin" Grandmaster which effectively makes you immune to conditions so long as you can keep yourself topped off (most of the damage from Fire Djinn is from multi-stack burning application) which will get cleansed at 1s intervals +90% HP/Ele.
7. Using Durability Runes on Weaver? Weaver is all about abusing dual-elemental utility to deal high burst damage or control enemies; setting up burst windows. When you over-compensate with defense you're left with no meaningful offense to reduce the number of enemies you're fighting.

Eventually they got to the point where they could handle a Djinn. We talked briefly about the importance of breaking their break-bars to melt them. Obviously, dealing with more difficult mobs on an offensive Weaver build (designed for WvW) is going to be a bad experience. He was lacking in % power damage modifiers (Persisting Flames > Blinding Ashes). This is exactly why we have build-templates now; to swap between WvW/PvP/PvE traits on the fly. He was seriously lacking in damage which was making poor use of his ascended marauder's stats and sword-main hand.

They were getting really, really upset about sword going so far as blaming the sword for being garbage and PoF for putting a garbage weapon into the game. As it turns out, the problem wasn't the content. The problem was the way the player was interacting with it, poor build decisions, excessive defensive traits/utilities and poor positioning (grabbing 1-2+ Djinn is something Elementalist/Thief is going to struggle with) no matter what sort of build you play sans like Trailblazer's Sw/F Condition Weaver. He was running 2 stun-breaks and a condi-cleanse (on top of the fire-cleanse trait in fire) and trying to brute force "Defense is the best offense," vs. some of the toughest mobs in Path of Fire. As an Elementalist, adjust your traits, adjust your utilities, but smart, fluid, intelligent play focused around offense is your best defense.

[Linken.6345]

@"LunarRXA.5062" said:You know, I logged into my alt-account for the first time in a few months yesterday. I had hate mail from this thread in it. I had nothing better to do so I whispered the player, talked with him and learned a few things.

1. He was a WvW player that wanted to run a "One Size Fits All" build. Tougher PvE content isn't suitable excessive defensive traits. His traits were a mess.
2. He was running 3 stun-breaks and excessive condition-cleansing with Fire/Air/Weaver - Mist Form, Armor of Earth & the Burn Cleanse Cantrip (fighting Fire Djinn).
3. He was running the grandmaster "Blind Foes whom you burn," while fighting Veteran Djinn (defiant & immune to blind, generally) over the more offensive skills.
4. I suggested to him that he should try casting Glyph of Storms in Earth Attunement for the pulsing AoE blind/storm.
5. I suggested that he run Fire signet in place of one of his stun-breaks, as well as dropping one of his offensive trait-lines (Fire/Air) for Arcane/Defense. Doing so would allow him to take evasive arcana which would turn his dodge in water into a condi-cleanse and his dodge in earth into a blast finisher (as well as Arcane/Shield proc on %)

Eventually they got to the point where they could handle a Djinn. We talked briefly about the importance of breaking their break-bars to melt them. Obviously, dealing with more difficult mobs on an offensive Weaver build (designed for WvW) is going to be a bad experience. He was lacking in % power damage modifiers (Persisting Flames > Blinding Ashes). This is exactly why we have build-templates now; to swap between WvW/PvP/PvE traits on the fly. He was seriously lacking in damage which was making poor use of his ascended marauder's stats and sword-main hand.

They were getting really, really upset about sword going so far as blaming the sword for being garbage and PoF for putting a garbage weapon into the game. As it turns out, the problem wasn't the content. The problem was the way the player was interacting with it, poor build decisions, excessive defensive traits/utilities and poor positioning (grabbing 1-2+ Djinn is something Elementalist/Thief is going to struggle with) no matter what sort of build you play sans like Trailblazer's Sw/F Condition Weaver. He was running 2 stun-breaks and a condi-cleanse (on top of the fire-cleanse trait in fire) and trying to brute force "Defense is the best offense," vs. some of the toughest mobs in Path of Fire. As an Elementalist, adjust your traits, adjust your utilities, but smart, fluid, intelligent play focused around offense is your best defense.

So what I got from this at first is you have posted with main account and alt account in this thread, that is against the rules for your information.Other then that good on you for helping a clueless player mate.

[LegendsOfTheWist.7591]

I apologize? I don't post on the official forums much. Generally, I consider these forums over-zealously moderated, but I can understand why such a rule exists. I'll keep that in mind for future reference. I try not to make a habit of posting too much, but I enjoy helping players improve their understanding of the game when possible.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@LunarRXA.5062 said:I apologize? I don't post on the official forums much. Generally, I consider these forums over-zealously moderated, but I can understand why such a rule exists. I'll keep that in mind for future reference. I try not to make a habit of posting too much, but I enjoy helping players improve their understanding of the game when possible.

That's great - but, ultimately, it's not really relevant to this topic. POF being a tedious chorefest isn't simply a L2P issue - mobs are more numerous, more pathy, and have higher aggro range than in most of the game and there's no real justification for it as these zones don't retain large numbers of players to offset it. Even if you have no trouble killing the mobs, it's routinely tedious and annoying for no good reason.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@"LunarRXA.5062" said:I apologize? I don't post on the official forums much. Generally, I consider these forums over-zealously moderated, but I can understand why such a rule exists. I'll keep that in mind for future reference. I try not to make a habit of posting too much, but I enjoy helping players improve their understanding of the game when possible.

That's great - but, ultimately, it's not really relevant to this topic. POF being a tedious chorefest isn't simply a L2P issue - mobs are more numerous, more pathy, and have higher aggro range than in most of the game and there's no real justification for it as these zones don't retain large numbers of players to offset it. Even if you have no trouble killing the mobs, it's routinely tedious and annoying for no good reason.Its exactly relevant what he wrote. There was a guy trying to fight PvE in a WvW build. Thats as stupid as trying to fight WvW in a PvE build.

I can beat almost anything 1v1, 1v2 and have even gone 1v3 in my WvW roaming condi core engie build.

Would I take that to fight a veteran djinn? Hahahahahahahaha... No.

I take my PvE built power reaper that can fight 4 veteran djinns in one go because fighting only 1 is for babies.

The same reaper build that I get curbstomped with in WvW.

If the mobs are "annoying" what are you even doing there?