Why does nobody join for whisper of jormag?

[Asum.4960]

@Katary.7096 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:Tomorrow make a brand new account, quickly get your guy to 80, ascended everything and pop on down to the dome. Lay it on thick that you have never done a raid before but have watched the videos and come on here the following day to tell us how you failed miserably to find a game and it completely put you off the whole experience, or you can lie.My money say you will lie?You could always knee jerk reply straight away and say things like join a training guild(but not your one), try strikes first, or a favourite of mine come back when you've gain experience.So essentially you are challenging people to start raiding from scratch, as opposed to using their accounts with geared characters, LI/ KP and contacts from FL or Guilds. And in case someone actually does that successfully you simply accuse them of lying about it preemptively. If you make it clear from the get-go that you are not going to believe them anyway, why would anyone waste their time trying to prove you wrong? Because you already have your mind made up about the matter and don't want your opinion changed?

Plus people have done that, on stream. From WoodenPotatoes' Zero to Hero series of starting a completely fresh account and taking it from level one to Raid ready, to Teapot getting full clears while pretending to be a raid newbie, joining LFG's.

[MattDu.7123]

post removed

[Linken.6345]

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Katary.7096 said:

So essentially you are challenging people to start raiding from scratch, as opposed to using their accounts with geared characters, LI/ KP and contacts from FL or Guilds. And in case someone actually does that successfully you simply accuse them of lying about it preemptively. If you make it clear from the get-go that you are not going to believe them anyway, why would anyone waste their time trying to prove you wrong? Because you already have your mind made up about the matter and don't want your opinion changed?

To gain LI/ KP you need to have done a raid, but you can't do a raid unless you have LI/ KP. It's a closed loop. Now before you go off at me, I get it, you need a well balanced group that understand this type of content or your just going to wipe, so that was why raiders need a way of knowing if you had progress enough to be ready, but it's just killing the community by putting an artificial wall around it. Both sides are right but the raid community diminishes and no new content if you don't have the player base.

To combat this strikes are a cut down easy version of raids where anyone can join this type of content

to see if its for them

and they go up in difficulty so you realise that you need to get a better understanding of balanced teams, tactics and builds. This way they can show a raid group that they are good at all the strikes and are ready to try something harder. Growing their community. But its not happening

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Tyncale.1629 said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.And how do you get LI/ KP? Do you see a pattern emerging? Strikes are not raids.

As a side point it would be good if they numbered strikes like fractals so you know which level they are.

@Linken.6345 said:So why cant you join voice and mute mike and just listen to the call outs.Its a bit faster to say 1 more to circle marker instead of typing it as an example.

I get a lot of arm movement and the shouting can get very loud if my anxiety spikes to high; I have neighbours. And would you like to be the only one that can't join the conversation. I don't give up and I try to do a little more everyday. But mainly, for me, its letting the team down that would be worse; everyone needs a win now and again and I couldn't take that away from them.

The team dont need you to speak they need you to listen.The arm movement and shouting happens even if your not on voice right, so it would be a problem for your neighbors either way.Saying you cant use voice to listen because you got tourettes and then turn around saying you feel excluded because you mute yourself feels kinda contradictory.After living with one that have the same problem, after awhile you just glose over it and listen to what they try to say at least in my case.My static fails more often then not because a lot of people are very talkative me included and lose focus because of it.

[Asum.4960]

@"MattDu.7123" said:To gain LI/ KP you need to have done a raid, but you can't do a raid unless you have LI/ KP. It's a closed loop. Now before you go off at me, I get it, you need a well balanced group that understand this type of content or your just going to wipe, so that was why raiders need a way of knowing if you had progress enough to be ready, but it's just killing the community by putting an artificial wall around it. Both sides are right but the raid community diminishes and no new content if you don't have the player base.

I really don't know why this is so hard.First of all, LFG =/= the "raiding community". What LFG for organized group content is predominantly used for, is for experienced players to quickly advertise and fill their groups, ideally with players according to their own skill level, aka approximated LI/KP.For actually routinely playing, and even absolutely more so learning, a Static is highly recommended - aka finding a raiding community to regularly play and grow with.When you find such a community, either one to take you in and help you train or one formed out of fellow beginners wanting to figure stuff out for themselves, of course they are not going to demand LI/KP.There is no closed loop.

Once your group may get experienced and clear the content fairly well months down the line, I can pretty much guarantee you, should 1-5 members of your group fall away now and then and you are filling the group with PuG's via LFG, you are going to ask for LI/KP eventually, or not Raid at all that week, not out of spite, but not to throw away all the progress you've earned, because the result will be about the same, minus the immense frustration and wasted time of wiping.Maybe you'll try to be different the first 1-10 times/weeks, to not gate. Wipe horribly for 3-30 hours in an excruciating process of watching utterly incapable players who are just so far off being able to do the content there isn't even any chance for growth over the time of your weekly Raid, then get abuse hurled towards your way for daring to tell them how to play when you try to give them tips anyway, get nothing done for weeks on end, and then eventually transition to, screw it, guess we just have to gate our group from now on, or we might as well not play/get burned out with frustration and quit.There is no "artificial" wall.

As long as OW and Story content is so incredibly easy that it produces players playing the game at 1/10 the efficacy of a Raider, not even understanding core game mechanics, since they are simply never tested or required there, a method of gating high end content for randoms will be necessary - or the content would simply be unplayable, with the people who know how to play and having earned smooth and fun runs with lot's of practice and effort simply leaving out of frustration (which is already happening too much).

This is not a case of people artificially gating others for simply not knowing the Raid mechanics, which they could easily learn if someone just takes them in in the first place.This is a case of you needing 5-10 above average OW players to get the DPS of 1 single Raider, and your Squad size limit for Raids is 10 (to not even address basic movement, situational awareness, communication, etc.).Obviously you run into a major problem there and need to filter somehow, unless you are specifically in the mood/business of training people, or you are willing to take the loss and train someone now and then, likely because they are part of your community and you like them as a person.But you can't expect that players do that week after week, month after month, year after year, for randoms on LFG they don't know and likely will never see again, at the expense of never actually getting to play, have fun and progress themselves. That's madness.

LI/KP isn't what doomed endgame content, it's what desperately has been holding it together by a thread in the face of complete lack of content and severely flawed tutorialization, grouping and communication in the rest of the game.

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's downsides and flaws, or that I like the concept of gating itself - I don't. I myself have struggled once to break into this content (well, twice, Fractal CM's and Raids), and I do empathise with anyone who genuinely does and isn't just on the screw Raider's train without legitimate interest in the content. But it is a necessary evil, one which Anet with their design and (lack of) content made necessary.

To just remove any way of filtering players would do nothing but end in a toxic, frustrating nightmare of people with wildly different skill levels and expectations clashing while getting nothing done, and kill the content quicker than anything else.

[Quench.7091]

There is a group finder tool, but it's only active when the mission is marked as "priority." It's an attempt to funnel players into one queue. From my experience, nobody uses it. People don't want to sit around in an instance until the group falls apart from AFKing. The PvP queue + map vote system would probably work better. I don't think we'll see that, though.

They seem to be messing around with the idea of smaller group content that scales to allow for solo play. It might be needed for when the content gets older and people stop looking for groups.

[MattDu.7123]

post removed

[Katary.7096]

@"Asum.4960" said:Plus people have done that, on stream. From WoodenPotatoes' Zero to Hero series of starting a completely fresh account and taking it from level one to Raid ready, to Teapot getting full clears while pretending to be a raid newbie, joining LFG's.That is good to know. But with those two I expect the first counter-argument to be that both of them are famous enough for some players to recognize them even on secondary accounts, at which point the whole "complete newbie trying out raids" idea would no longer work.

@MattDu.7123 said:To gain LI/ KP you need to have done a raid, but you can't do a raid unless you have LI/ KP. It's a closed loop. Now before you go off at me, I get it, you need a well balanced group that understand this type of content or your just going to wipe, so that was why raiders need a way of knowing if you had progress enough to be ready, but it's just killing the community by putting an artificial wall around it. Both sides are right but the raid community diminishes and no new content if you don't have the player base.

To combat this strikes are a cut down easy version of raids where anyone can join this type of content to see if its for them and they go up in difficulty so you realise that you need to get a better understanding of balanced teams, tactics and builds. This way they can show a raid group that they are good at all the strikes and are ready to try something harder. Growing their community. But its not happening

If you are going to change the subject when you respond to me, I do not see why I should even read it.

[crepuscular.9047]

@"Eloc Freidon.5692" said:Whisper of Jormag is one of those pieces of content that is only useful for Mastery Points. The poor loot isn't worth farming for how challenging it is. It needs to be removed from the daily rotation and loot revamped for it to be considered regularly played.

FS, aka Fake Strike is worse :lol:should be removed from weekly, or let us take those choppers to the final boss by putting them to good use

 

 

i actually find WoJ is the most fun out of all the strike, but speaking of what should be removed from daily, Bone would come higher for me

HS can easily carry WoJ, even for a newbie team; not noob (ppl dont follow instructions after 15min of explaining)

[mindcircus.1506]

@MattDu.7123 said:Both were strikes related. Whisper of jormag is a strike mission, there shouldn't be any restrictions to having a go at it.There aren't any.Anyone can start up a squad and enter the instance.Anyone.

[MattDu.7123]

post removed

[Asum.4960]

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

LI/KP isn't what doomed endgame content, it's what desperately has been holding it together by a thread in the face of complete lack of content and severely flawed tutorialization, grouping and communication in the rest of the game.I'm not saying it doesn't have it's downsides and flaws, or that I like the concept of gating itself - I don't. I myself have struggled once to break into this content (well, twice, Fractal and Raids), and I do empathise with anyone who genuinely does and isn't just on the screw Raider's train without legitimate interest in the content. But it is a necessary evil, one which Anet with their design and (lack of) content made necessary.

And I agreed with you, I may not like it and its flawed but I can understand it. But although we have talked about raid concepts, this whole post is about strikes, not raids. And what has been used there should not have been applied to strikes.

Whisper of Jormag and Boneskinner really aren't that far off from the easier Raid bosses, so it's not surprising the same issues have arisen there, then leading to the same, flawed but necessary, solution - KP.

I've joined plenty of no requirement Strike runs myself in the past, and a lot of times it goes just fine - that is with the big caveat though that those Squads then still happen to be majority Raiders, as seen by Titles displayed or Legendary Armor skins worn.The times that wasn't the case, it was just a frustrating exercise in wiping to the same trivial thing over, and over and over again with no signs of improvement, no willingness to communicate on the part of those struggling, and no taking of any advice or tips, until the groups would fall apart. (I mean, Boneskinner literally just consists of taking a step to the side with the Group when an AoE appears. That's it. WoJ really is just, stand still with chains close to the boss. You can only watch players die due to not managing that for so many hours before you just ask for some form of KP if you can, to then be done in minutes)

So, most people started gating those too - unless they know they got at least all important roles already covered by competent players and are willing to carry a few more.

This will happen to any content requiring even just moderate to advanced, let alone expert skill at the game, until the massive skill gap between players is closed somewhat by elevating the minimum skill floor players will on average reach after going through 1-80, the personal story and some OW content.

The fact that all of that content is beatable by an afk Player with a Ranger pet, giving players a false sense of proficiency, is mad.Anet needs to be willing to occasionally, or rather most importantly, gradually and consistently challenge it's players - so that they then don't hit those frustrating and seemingly impossible walls of difficulty of proper content, actually utilizing the games mechanics.

Failing and learning, asking for help and grouping, those imo shouldn't be scary concepts players not used to dread about in an MMO, but something that is fostered and normalised over time for an actually healthy community that is capable of playing together and supporting and learning from each other (and that is coming from someone with severe social anxiety).

Just shouting at or screwing over those at the top who worked on themselves despite of the game not requiring them to do so for 99% of it's content isn't ever going to change this situation of making that 1% of semi-challenging group content more accessible.

@Katary.7096 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Plus people have done that, on stream. From WoodenPotatoes' Zero to Hero series of starting a completely fresh account and taking it from level one to Raid ready, to Teapot getting full clears while pretending to be a raid newbie, joining LFG's.That is good to know. But with those two I expect the first counter-argument to be that both of them are famous enough for some players to recognize them even on secondary accounts, at which point the whole "complete newbie trying out raids" idea would no longer work.

Ofc you can always argue some people might have silently recognized them and accepted them because of that through all those tries, but generally the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. That if you are a honest, motivated and competent player, with some struggle, you can get in to that content just fine, if you are willing to put in that time and work.Just like all non famous Raiders did.One can argue that it should be easier, but not that it's impossible.

In any case, demanding that all the players who picked themselves up and worked to get into that content to just stop having fun with what they worked for (smooth and fast clears) and welcome everyone who didn't (and in most cases will continue to not do so, even if welcomed in), isn't reasonable.

As @MattDu.7123 said, you need to meet the population half way - but that goes both ways.

And Raiders for their part put in enormous amounts of work into written guides, videos, benchmarks, gearing guides, build guides, rotation breakdowns, training guilds, etc. - Everything you need to be able to raid, except internal motivation which only you can bring.But you can't help those who aren't willing to be helped.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Asum.4960 said:

@MattDu.7123 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

LI/KP isn't what doomed endgame content, it's what desperately has been holding it together by a thread in the face of complete lack of content and severely flawed tutorialization, grouping and communication in the rest of the game.I'm not saying it doesn't have it's downsides and flaws, or that I like the concept of gating itself - I don't. I myself have struggled once to break into this content (well, twice, Fractal and Raids), and I do empathise with anyone who genuinely does and isn't just on the screw Raider's train without legitimate interest in the content. But it is a necessary evil, one which Anet with their design and (lack of) content made necessary.

And I agreed with you, I may not like it and its flawed but I can understand it. But although we have talked about raid concepts, this whole post is about strikes, not raids. And what has been used there should not have been applied to strikes.

Whisper of Jormag and Boneskinner really aren't that far off from the easier Raid bosses, so it's not surprising the same issues have arisen there, then leading to the same, flawed but necessary, solution - KP.

I've joined plenty of no requirement Strike runs myself in the past, and a lot of times it goes just fine - that is with the big caveat though that those Squads then still happen to be majority Raiders, as seen by Titles displayed or Legendary Armor skins worn.The times that wasn't the case, it was just a frustrating exercise in wiping to the same trivial thing over, and over and over again with no signs of improvement, no willingness to communicate on the part of those struggling, and no taking of any advice or tips, until the groups would fall apart. (I mean, Boneskinner literally just consists of taking a step to the side with the Group when an AoE appears. That's it. WoJ really is just, stand still with chains close to the boss. You can only watch players die due to not managing that for so many hours before you just ask for some form of KP if you can, to then be done in minutes)

So, most people started gating those too - unless they know they got at least all important roles already covered by competent players and are willing to carry a few more.

This will happen to any content requiring even just moderate to advanced, let alone expert skill at the game, until the massive skill gap between players is closed somewhat by elevating the minimum skill floor players will on average reach after going through 1-80, the personal story and some OW content.

The fact that all of that content is beatable by an afk Player with a Ranger pet, giving players a false sense of proficiency, is mad.Anet needs to be willing to occasionally, or rather most importantly, gradually and consistently challenge it's players - so that they then don't hit those frustrating and seemingly impossible walls of difficulty of proper content, actually utilizing the games mechanics.

Failing and learning, asking for help and grouping, those imo shouldn't be scary concepts players not used to dread about in an MMO, but something that is fostered and normalised over time for an actually healthy community that is capable of playing together and supporting and learning from each other (and that is coming from someone with severe social anxiety).

Just shouting at or screwing over those at the top who worked on themselves despite of the game not requiring them to do so for 99% of it's content isn't ever going to change this situation of making that 1% of semi-challenging group content more accessible.

@Katary.7096 said:

@Asum.4960 said:Plus people have done that, on stream. From WoodenPotatoes' Zero to Hero series of starting a completely fresh account and taking it from level one to Raid ready, to Teapot getting full clears while pretending to be a raid newbie, joining LFG's.That is good to know. But with those two I expect the first counter-argument to be that both of them are famous enough for some players to recognize them even on secondary accounts, at which point the whole "complete newbie trying out raids" idea would no longer work.

Ofc you can always argue some people might have silently recognized them and accepted them because of that through all those tries, but generally the simplest explanation is the most likely to be true. That if you are a honest, motivated and competent player, with some struggle, you can get in to that content just fine, if you are willing to put in that time and work.Just like all non famous Raiders did.

So a hard instance , while the other side of population are trying to gate themselves with KP .None likes each other and none does the instance :PIt sounds familiar ...

You know what ? create Open World Raids , where random you will be either the Hero or the NPC , and KP/LI or any new open world/pvp currency unlocks higher forms . Each player will join the his "soulmates " he loves , avoiding the othersThe Boss siphon stacks from the NPC (players) every sec (de-powering them) , to go Berserk - behaving like a Normal Boss with a huge array of attacks .When the NPC(player) dies , spawns further where charzookas/ranged aoe weapons/vest with explosives , can be picked up .

[Asum.4960]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:So a hard instance , while the other side of population are trying to gate themselves with KP .None likes each other and none does the instance :PIt sounds familiar ...

There is really no need to insert ill will or any motivation to it besides players who know they are good at the content with a way to prove it weighing a decision of, do I want to do this content in 30 minutes, have fun and get it done, or do I want to gamble on a very high probability of wiping for 3h (which is time I may not even have), have a frustrating time with people getting toxic, leaving, regrouping - all to no fault of my own, and at the end walk away frustrated, having done and gaining nothing.

Bc unfortunately, that is generally the difference between making/joining a KP group and one without requirements, unless the no requirement group happens to consist of mostly proficient players with KP, who happened to take that gamble at the same time.

That is the unfortunate reality of GW2 and it's massive skill gap, and no amount of blaming proficient players, who are in the minority, will change that.Either some people will have a terrible time in hard content while other's who put in the work thrive, or everybody will have a terrible time in the content.

If you want (mostly) everybody to have a good time, you need to elevate those at the bottom of the skill floor, not punish those who elevated themselves.

You can't expect proficient players to carry the burden everywhere and all the time, especially not to cater to players who literally do not want to improve and be helped.And if someone does not want to improve and be helped from the level of the average player, they simply can not do content such as Strikes, Raids and Fractal CM's. Not due to gating, but due to their literal lack of ability to do so - without being entirely carried by others that is.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:You know what ? create Open World Raids , where random you will be either the Hero or the NPC , and KP/LI or any new open world/pvp currency unlocks higher forms . Each player will join the his "soulmates " he loves , avoiding the others

I don't entirely understand.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:So a hard instance , while the other side of population are trying to gate themselves with KP .None likes each other and none does the instance :PIt sounds familiar ...

There is really no need to insert ill will or any motivation to it besides players who know they are good at the content with a way to prove it weighing a decision of, do I want to do this content in 30 minutes, have fun and get it done, or do I want to gamble on a very high probability of wiping for 3h (which is time I may not even have), have a frustrating time with people getting toxic, leaving, regrouping - all to no fault of my own, and at the end walk away frustrated, having done and gaining nothing.

Bc unfortunately, that is generally the difference between making/joining a KP group and one without requirements, unless the no requirement group happens to consist of mostly proficient players with KP, who happened to take that gamble at the same time.

That is the unfortunate reality of GW2 and it's massive skill gap, and no amount of blaming proficient players, who are in the minority, will change that.Either some people will have a terrible time in hard content while other's who put in the work thrive, or everybody will have a terrible time in the content.

If you want (mostly) everybody to have a good time, you need to elevate those at the bottom of the skill floor, not punish those who elevated themselves.

You can't expect proficient players to carry the burden everywhere and all the time, especially not to cater to players who literally do not want to improve and be helped.And if someone does not want to improve and be helped from the level of the average player, they simply can not do content such as Strikes, Raids and Fractal CM's. Not due to gating, but due to their literal lack of ability to do so - without being entirely carried by others that is.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:You know what ? create Open World Raids , where random you will be either the Hero or the NPC , and KP/LI or any new open world/pvp currency unlocks higher forms . Each player will join the his "soulmates " he loves , avoiding the others

I don't entirely understand.

Ok , none loves each other .Then try to create a thread in Reddit for "Raid Enhanced" (30 euros base game + 10 for the addition , for 6 raids in a year) and you can choose any dificulty .If its Wing 5 , most likely you will say that the dificulty is really pumped up and the casual cant do it .If its Wing 7 , then neither casuals-not raiders loves it :P

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:So a hard instance , while the other side of population are trying to gate themselves with KP .None likes each other and none does the instance :PIt sounds familiar ...

There is really no need to insert ill will or any motivation to it besides players who know they are good at the content with a way to prove it weighing a decision of, do I want to do this content in 30 minutes, have fun and get it done, or do I want to gamble on a very high probability of wiping for 3h (which is time I may not even have), have a frustrating time with people getting toxic, leaving, regrouping - all to no fault of my own, and at the end walk away frustrated, having done and gaining nothing.

Bc unfortunately, that is generally the difference between making/joining a KP group and one without requirements, unless the no requirement group happens to consist of mostly proficient players with KP, who happened to take that gamble at the same time.

That is the unfortunate reality of GW2 and it's massive skill gap, and no amount of blaming proficient players, who are in the minority, will change that.Either some people will have a terrible time in hard content while other's who put in the work thrive, or everybody will have a terrible time in the content.

If you want (mostly) everybody to have a good time, you need to elevate those at the bottom of the skill floor, not punish those who elevated themselves.

You can't expect proficient players to carry the burden everywhere and all the time, especially not to cater to players who literally do not want to improve and be helped.And if someone does not want to improve and be helped from the level of the average player, they simply can not do content such as Strikes, Raids and Fractal CM's. Not due to gating, but due to their literal lack of ability to do so - without being entirely carried by others that is.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:You know what ? create Open World Raids , where random you will be either the Hero or the NPC , and KP/LI or any new open world/pvp currency unlocks higher forms . Each player will join the his "soulmates " he loves , avoiding the others

I don't entirely understand.

Ok , none loves each other .Then try to create a thread in Reddit for "Raid Enhanced" (30 euros base game + 10 for the addition , for 6 raids in a year) and you can choose any dificulty .If its Wing 5 , most likely you will say that the dificulty is really pumped up and the casual cant do it .If its Wing 7 , then neither casuals-not raiders loves it :P

That's doesn't make any sense. At this point it seems (to me) that you have not even read what @Asum.4960 wrote :(

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:So a hard instance , while the other side of population are trying to gate themselves with KP .None likes each other and none does the instance :PIt sounds familiar ...

There is really no need to insert ill will or any motivation to it besides players who know they are good at the content with a way to prove it weighing a decision of, do I want to do this content in 30 minutes, have fun and get it done, or do I want to gamble on a very high probability of wiping for 3h (which is time I may not even have), have a frustrating time with people getting toxic, leaving, regrouping - all to no fault of my own, and at the end walk away frustrated, having done and gaining nothing.

Bc unfortunately, that is generally the difference between making/joining a KP group and one without requirements, unless the no requirement group happens to consist of mostly proficient players with KP, who happened to take that gamble at the same time.

That is the unfortunate reality of GW2 and it's massive skill gap, and no amount of blaming proficient players, who are in the minority, will change that.Either some people will have a terrible time in hard content while other's who put in the work thrive, or everybody will have a terrible time in the content.

If you want (mostly) everybody to have a good time, you need to elevate those at the bottom of the skill floor, not punish those who elevated themselves.

You can't expect proficient players to carry the burden everywhere and all the time, especially not to cater to players who literally do not want to improve and be helped.And if someone does not want to improve and be helped from the level of the average player, they simply can not do content such as Strikes, Raids and Fractal CM's. Not due to gating, but due to their literal lack of ability to do so - without being entirely carried by others that is.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:You know what ? create Open World Raids , where random you will be either the Hero or the NPC , and KP/LI or any new open world/pvp currency unlocks higher forms . Each player will join the his "soulmates " he loves , avoiding the others

I don't entirely understand.

Ok , none loves each other .Then try to create a thread in Reddit for "Raid Enhanced" (30 euros base game + 10 for the addition , for 6 raids in a year) and you can choose any dificulty .If its Wing 5 , most likely you will say that the dificulty is really pumped up and the casual cant do it .If its Wing 7 , then neither casuals-not raiders loves it :P

That's doesn't make any sense. At this point it seems (to me) that you have not even read what @Asum.4960 wrote :(

I don't think we can change anyones mind around here . Its been 5 years :)There are 3 options :a) Stay the sameb) Wait for the future Steam population (players that have been reported as toxic , their messages cannot be seen in steam server ? Or spread them in 7 Overworlds and the other 3 "Relaxed" Overworlds will play with Steam players? )c) Fund your own thing , you love (even if casuals don't pay for it , they will avoid it)Even if the goal won't be reach , the 6 Raids will be released , but the "package" will be removed after a year

[Yggranya.5201]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Tyncale.1629 said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

[mindcircus.1506]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Tyncale.1629 said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.How are you being locked out of content that anyone can just open an instance for?

[Asum.4960]

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

Why are you so steeped into this us versus them mentality?Raids aren't really famous for being incredibly rewarding, especially considering the downtimes, effort and organisation associated with it, neither are Strikes.Proficient players flock to that content because it consists of more than press one button to win.If you want to discredit players on the grounds of just flocking to things for rewards over/despite gameplay, I'll raise you the much more rewarding Silverwastes, Istan, Dragon Fall, Drizzlewood, or just about any other mindnumbingly simple OW zerg fest players flock to, I don't think that argument will go very favourably for "your side", not that I personally think there is anything wrong with wanting to be rewarded for your time - I do primarily seek out engaging gameplay though.

The demands aren't arbitrary, otherwise they would never have emerged, as argued here and other places, over and over again. It's not just how "they" operate. People want to play and have fun, not watch others who clearly are no were near ready for some content wipe them for hours, while being immune or even hostile towards any attempts of help.

Finally, no one is locked out of that content. Take everyone in this thread complaining about KP requirements, form a squad with them and do Strikes. I promise you, no evil Raider will be able to stop you with KP requirements!

The only thing standing in your way for that is yourself.I get it's easier to blame others than to put in effort yourself to organise people, form groups, post lfg's, sort out roles, learn the content, your class, build etc. to actually beat it and so on, but what makes you think that you are entitled to someone else doing that for you?

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

Why are you so steeped into this us versus them mentality?Raids aren't really famous for being incredibly rewarding, especially considering the downtimes, effort and organisation associated with it, neither are Strikes.Proficient players flock to that content because it consists of more than press one button to win.If you want to discredit players on the grounds of just flocking to things for rewards over/despite gameplay, I'll raise you the much more rewarding Silverwastes, Istan, Dragon Fall, Drizzlewood, or just about any other mindnumbingly simple OW zerg fest players flock to, I don't think that argument will go very favourably for "your side", not that I personally think there is anything wrong with wanting to be rewarded for your time - I do primarily seek out engaging gameplay though.

The demands aren't arbitrary, otherwise they would never have emerged, as argued here and other places, over and over again. It's not just how "they" operate. People want to play and have fun, not watch others who clearly are no were near ready for some content wipe them for hours, while being immune or even hostile towards any attempts of help.

Finally, no one is locked out of that content. Take everyone in this thread complaining about KP requirements, form a squad with them and do Strikes. I promise you, no evil Raider will be able to stop you with KP requirements!

The only thing standing in your way for that is yourself.I get it's easier to blame others than to put in effort yourself to organise people, form groups, post lfg's, sort out roles, learn the content, your class, build etc. to actually beat it and so on, but what makes you think that you are entitled to someone else doing that for you?

Yeah people want to have funSame as playing ONCE PER WEEK , FOR 1 HOUR CASUALLY , to get an armor that allows them to change stats (like Ascendant in Fractals) , but some other people saying that they dont want them .In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Funny that casuals whine about KP and not for the low gold income ...or any other reason :P

[Asum.4960]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

Why are you so steeped into this us versus them mentality?Raids aren't really famous for being incredibly rewarding, especially considering the downtimes, effort and organisation associated with it, neither are Strikes.Proficient players flock to that content because it consists of more than press one button to win.If you want to discredit players on the grounds of just flocking to things for rewards over/despite gameplay, I'll raise you the much more rewarding Silverwastes, Istan, Dragon Fall, Drizzlewood, or just about any other mindnumbingly simple OW zerg fest players flock to, I don't think that argument will go very favourably for "your side", not that I personally think there is anything wrong with wanting to be rewarded for your time - I do primarily seek out engaging gameplay though.

The demands aren't arbitrary, otherwise they would never have emerged, as argued here and other places, over and over again. It's not just how "they" operate. People want to play and have fun, not watch others who clearly are no were near ready for some content wipe them for hours, while being immune or even hostile towards any attempts of help.

Finally, no one is locked out of that content. Take everyone in this thread complaining about KP requirements, form a squad with them and do Strikes. I promise you, no evil Raider will be able to stop you with KP requirements!

The only thing standing in your way for that is yourself.I get it's easier to blame others than to put in effort yourself to organise people, form groups, post lfg's, sort out roles, learn the content, your class, build etc. to actually beat it and so on, but what makes you think that you are entitled to someone else doing that for you?

Yeah people want to have funSame as playing ONCE PER WEEK , FOR 1 HOUR CASUALLY , to get an armor that allows them to change stats (like Ascendant in Fractals) , but some other people saying that they dont want them .In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Funny that casuals whine about KP and not for the low gold income ...or any other reason :P

While I'm not sure what the point of your post over all is, I want to specifically address this part:

In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Anet's strategy of "Players have to come and then we will build it" will never work, for anything. Or rather, the chances to hit gold with something that everybody immediately loves are extremely slim, especially in such a splintered community.Anet has to build and commit to content avenues for players to recognize them as worthwhile thing to spend their time on and get invested in.

Why get into Raids if there is only a handful of them, with maybe a new one once a year, or now non at all anymore?Why get into Fractal CM's if there's only three, and another one might be another 3 years away again?Why build up/get into a Guild, when there's only a few way outdated Guild Missions that haven't seen updates or additions in years?Why get into Dungeons when they are dead as concept since launch?Why get into Strikes if once again, there's just a handful and they are likely to be abandoned as quickly as they were conceived?Why really get into Bounty runs if that system isn't getting iterated and expanded on?Why get into PvP to fights bots at low levels and wintraders and hackers higher up?Why get WvW when there is nothing to keep gameplay and matches fresh, no content, no server pride, no goal, no impact.The list goes on and on.

ArenaNet needs vision, direction, commitment and iteration. They can't keep throwing stuff at a wall and wait to see for something to not only stick, but crawl upwards on it's own, before they decide it's good enough to actually support, iterate and grow.

This really isn't a Raid issue, but a symptom of a whole game in crisis. There is a reason GW2 went from the next MMO, to barely even being mentioned anymore alongside WoW, FFXIV and ESO when talking current MMO's in the mainstream.

Love Raids or hate them (or any other type of content on that list), I don't see the point in gloating about yet another part of the game we both (I can only presume about you) like, enjoy and are invested in dying.Every discontinued or largely unsupported point on that list represents active players and outside appeal of GW2 lost.

That's really not good for anyone who wants to see this game stick around, for more than maintenance, for years to come.I'm not sure they can weather another 2019/20 financially, especially if EoD doesn't pack a punch with some serious long term repeatable and community building content to draw people back in and hold them.You know, like Raids, Guild activities, WvW and so on.

2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

Why are you so steeped into this us versus them mentality?Raids aren't really famous for being incredibly rewarding, especially considering the downtimes, effort and organisation associated with it, neither are Strikes.Proficient players flock to that content because it consists of more than press one button to win.If you want to discredit players on the grounds of just flocking to things for rewards over/despite gameplay, I'll raise you the much more rewarding Silverwastes, Istan, Dragon Fall, Drizzlewood, or just about any other mindnumbingly simple OW zerg fest players flock to, I don't think that argument will go very favourably for "your side", not that I personally think there is anything wrong with wanting to be rewarded for your time - I do primarily seek out engaging gameplay though.

The demands aren't arbitrary, otherwise they would never have emerged, as argued here and other places, over and over again. It's not just how "they" operate. People want to play and have fun, not watch others who clearly are no were near ready for some content wipe them for hours, while being immune or even hostile towards any attempts of help.

Finally, no one is locked out of that content. Take everyone in this thread complaining about KP requirements, form a squad with them and do Strikes. I promise you, no evil Raider will be able to stop you with KP requirements!

The only thing standing in your way for that is yourself.I get it's easier to blame others than to put in effort yourself to organise people, form groups, post lfg's, sort out roles, learn the content, your class, build etc. to actually beat it and so on, but what makes you think that you are entitled to someone else doing that for you?

Yeah people want to have funSame as playing ONCE PER WEEK , FOR 1 HOUR CASUALLY , to get an armor that allows them to change stats (like Ascendant in Fractals) , but some other people saying that they dont want them .In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Funny that casuals whine about KP and not for the low gold income ...or any other reason :P

While I'm not sure what the point of your post over all is, I want to specifically address this part:

In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Anet's strategy of "Players have to come and

then

we will build it" will never work, for anything. Or rather, the chances to hit gold with something that everybody immediately loves are extremely slim, especially in such a splintered community.Anet has to build and commit to content avenues for players to recognize them as worthwhile thing to spend their time on and get invested in.

Why get into Raids if there is only a handful of them, with maybe a new one once a year, or now non at all anymore?Why get into Fractal CM's if there's only three, and another one might be another 3 years away again?Why build up/get into a Guild, when there's only a few way outdated Guild Missions that haven't seen updates or additions in years?Why get into Dungeons when they are dead as concept since launch?Why get into Strikes if once again, there's just a handful and they are likely to be abandoned as quickly as they were conceived?Why really get into Bounty runs if that system isn't getting iterated and expanded on?Why get into PvP to fights bots at low levels and wintraders and hackers higher up?Why get WvW when there is nothing to keep gameplay and matches fresh, no content, no server pride, no goal, no impact.The list goes on and on.

ArenaNet needs vision, direction, commitment and iteration. They can't keep throwing stuff at a wall and wait to see for something to not only stick, but crawl upwards on it's own, before they decide it's good enough to actually support, iterate and grow.

This really isn't a Raid issue, but a symptom of a whole game in crisis. There is a reason GW2 went from the next MMO, to barely even being mentioned anymore alongside WoW, FFXIV and ESO when talking current MMO's in the mainstream.

Love Raids or hate them (or any other type of content on that list), I don't see the point in gloating about yet another part of the game we both (I can only presume about you) like, enjoy and are invested in dying.Every discontinued or largely unsupported point on that list represents active players and outside appeal of GW2 lost.

That's really not good for anyone who wants to see this game stick around, for more than maintenance, for years to come.I'm not sure they can weather another 2019/20 financially, especially if EoD doesn't pack a punch with some serious long term repeatable and community building content to draw people back in and hold them.You know, like Raids, Guild activities, WvW and so on.

2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.

Asum list:a) Raids dont give goldb) Their mentality , prevents themc) Its the company mess

Casuals :a) KPb) Damage meter

I really wonder , why every time casuals comes into the forums list those 2 reason , and some1 else is trying to blame the company :P

We must find root of the problem and the question is ... Why did England hurried to get out of the Eu ? Did their spies anticipated something ?! They knew a next crisis where aproaching , so the wont help/pay other countries ?!

[Asum.4960]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@"Tyncale.1629" said:Strikes are a bust, only a few hardcore peeps fell for them, and now they have been elitized, like mini-raids. ( Li-nonsense and exclusion of classes included)

That happens because the majority of the playerbase is incredible bad at creating decent builds. There is a very high chance that someone without kp or li will do 3-4k dps while pretending to be dps.no class is excluded but most selfish builds are. those have no value in a grp.

No, that happens because of the simple fact you get rewards from it, which draws raiders to it like a moth to a flame. Then the raiders proceed to make arbitrary demands and lock everyone they can out of it regardless of build. Just the way they operate. You know, give 100% proof you've done it a 100 times before or git.

Why are you so steeped into this us versus them mentality?Raids aren't really famous for being incredibly rewarding, especially considering the downtimes, effort and organisation associated with it, neither are Strikes.Proficient players flock to that content because it consists of more than press one button to win.If you want to discredit players on the grounds of just flocking to things for rewards over/despite gameplay, I'll raise you the much more rewarding Silverwastes, Istan, Dragon Fall, Drizzlewood, or just about any other mindnumbingly simple OW zerg fest players flock to, I don't think that argument will go very favourably for "your side", not that I personally think there is anything wrong with wanting to be rewarded for your time - I do primarily seek out engaging gameplay though.

The demands aren't arbitrary, otherwise they would never have emerged, as argued here and other places, over and over again. It's not just how "they" operate. People want to play and have fun, not watch others who clearly are no were near ready for some content wipe them for hours, while being immune or even hostile towards any attempts of help.

Finally, no one is locked out of that content. Take everyone in this thread complaining about KP requirements, form a squad with them and do Strikes. I promise you, no evil Raider will be able to stop you with KP requirements!

The only thing standing in your way for that is yourself.I get it's easier to blame others than to put in effort yourself to organise people, form groups, post lfg's, sort out roles, learn the content, your class, build etc. to actually beat it and so on, but what makes you think that you are entitled to someone else doing that for you?

Yeah people want to have funSame as playing ONCE PER WEEK , FOR 1 HOUR CASUALLY , to get an armor that allows them to change stats (like Ascendant in Fractals) , but some other people saying that they dont want them .In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Funny that casuals whine about KP and not for the low gold income ...or any other reason :P

While I'm not sure what the point of your post over all is, I want to specifically address this part:

In the end , they wont come , so there wont be any more Raids :P

Anet's strategy of "Players have to come and

then

we will build it" will never work, for anything. Or rather, the chances to hit gold with something that everybody immediately loves are extremely slim, especially in such a splintered community.Anet has to build and commit to content avenues for players to recognize them as worthwhile thing to spend their time on and get invested in.

Why get into Raids if there is only a handful of them, with maybe a new one once a year, or now non at all anymore?Why get into Fractal CM's if there's only three, and another one might be another 3 years away again?Why build up/get into a Guild, when there's only a few way outdated Guild Missions that haven't seen updates or additions in years?Why get into Dungeons when they are dead as concept since launch?Why get into Strikes if once again, there's just a handful and they are likely to be abandoned as quickly as they were conceived?Why really get into Bounty runs if that system isn't getting iterated and expanded on?Why get into PvP to fights bots at low levels and wintraders and hackers higher up?Why get WvW when there is nothing to keep gameplay and matches fresh, no content, no server pride, no goal, no impact.The list goes on and on.

ArenaNet needs vision, direction, commitment and iteration. They can't keep throwing stuff at a wall and wait to see for something to not only stick, but crawl upwards on it's own, before they decide it's good enough to actually support, iterate and grow.

This really isn't a Raid issue, but a symptom of a whole game in crisis. There is a reason GW2 went from the next MMO, to barely even being mentioned anymore alongside WoW, FFXIV and ESO when talking current MMO's in the mainstream.

Love Raids or hate them (or any other type of content on that list), I don't see the point in gloating about yet another part of the game we both (I can only presume about you) like, enjoy and are invested in dying.Every discontinued or largely unsupported point on that list represents active players and outside appeal of GW2 lost.

That's really not good for anyone who wants to see this game stick around, for more than maintenance, for years to come.I'm not sure they can weather another 2019/20 financially, especially if EoD doesn't pack a punch with some serious long term repeatable and community building content to draw people back in and hold them.You know, like Raids, Guild activities, WvW and so on.

2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.

Asum list:a) Raids dont give goldb) Their mentality , prevents themc) Its the company mess

Casuals :a) KPb) Damage meter

I really wonder , why every time casuals comes into the forums list those 2 reason , and some1 else is trying to blame the company :P

Are you done with your strawman?

Me responding to someone stating that Raiders just flock towards rewards by countering that Raids and Strikes clearly aren't the thing to go for considering their effort/reward ratio now somehow made Raids not giving enough gold one of my main points, huh?

I addressed both the points of KP and Damage Meters, while you failed to address that or any arguments I made about the mentality or company issues, and now you resort to making up false arguments on my behalf to muddy the waters.If you are not interested in a discussion, there are easier ways to convey that.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:Anet's strategy of "Players have to come and

then

we will build it" will never work, for anything. Or rather, the chances to hit gold with something that everybody immediately loves are extremely slim, especially in such a splintered community.Anet has to build and commit to content avenues for players to recognize them as worthwhile thing to spend their time on and get invested in.

Why get into Raids if there is only a handful of them, with maybe a new one once a year, or now non at all anymore?Why get into Fractal CM's if there's only three, and another one might be another 3 years away again?Why build up/get into a Guild, when there's only a few way outdated Guild Missions that haven't seen updates or additions in years?Why get into Dungeons when they are dead as concept since launch?Why get into Strikes if once again, there's just a handful and they are likely to be abandoned as quickly as they were conceived?Why really get into Bounty runs if that system isn't getting iterated and expanded on?Why get into PvP to fights bots at low levels and wintraders and hackers higher up?Why get WvW when there is nothing to keep gameplay and matches fresh, no content, no server pride, no goal, no impact.The list goes on and on.

ArenaNet needs vision, direction, commitment and iteration. They can't keep throwing stuff at a wall and wait to see for something to not only stick, but crawl upwards on it's own, before they decide it's good enough to actually support, iterate and grow.

This really isn't a Raid issue, but a symptom of a whole game in crisis. There is a reason GW2 went from the next MMO, to barely even being mentioned anymore alongside WoW, FFXIV and ESO when talking current MMO's in the mainstream.

Love Raids or hate them (or any other type of content on that list), I don't see the point in gloating about yet another part of the game we both (I can only presume about you) like, enjoy and are invested in dying.Every discontinued or largely unsupported point on that list represents active players and outside appeal of GW2 lost.

That's really not good for anyone who wants to see this game stick around, for more than maintenance, for years to come.I'm not sure they can weather another 2019/20 financially, especially if EoD doesn't pack a punch with some serious long term repeatable and community building content to draw people back in and hold them.You know, like Raids, Guild activities, WvW and so on.

2019 especially clearly showed, just OW/LW isn't financially viable.

Asum list:a) Raids dont give goldb) Their mentality , prevents themc) Its the company mess

Casuals :a) KPb) Damage meter

I really wonder , why every time casuals comes into the forums list those 2 reason , and some1 else is trying to blame the company :P

We must find root of the problem and the question is ... Why did England hurried to get out of the Eu ? Did their spies anticipated something ?! They knew a next crisis where aproaching , so the wont help/pay other countries ?!

I love how you just ignored every single valid point that Asum brought up just to throw baseless casuals vs. elitists argument :)

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

There's alot of reasons this happened. Alot are talked about here, but I'll list a few of my own:

• Its unrewarding and a waste of time; T3-T4 Fractals are barely worth it, Strike Missions and raids aren't worth it at all. Open-world maps like Auric Basin and Silverwastes still give massively superior gold returns per hour with Spirit Shard promotion.
• In regards to raids in particular, Legendary armor is more easily farmed from competitive modes; no one makes it for the PvE skin.
• The LFG system is just bad, has too many categories and is full of jargon. Players also always expect experienced (exp), with a dwindling player base where most experienced players have quit due to lack of content.
• Enrage timers are the antithesis to everything this game was made for and most of the player base will avoid them outright. Even the change to give world bosses timers was highly critisised back in the day for introducing DPS checks.
• In short its just alot of stress for very little in return. Maybe some exclusive MPs, skins and other rewards, but that's it.

I'm a former "elite" turned casual because of burnout. And I think more players suffer from this than are willing to admit.

The devs tried to hodgepodge raids into a game that was never designed for them. Scaling them back to mini-raids doesn't change that, and the popularity of dungeons and Fractals reveals the truth about what players always wanted.

I guess we can all take solidarity in that our prefered content has been abandoned, no matter what it is.