Danger Ferret.6342 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: Anorexia is not, nor has it ever been, the standard of beauty. That's just misandrist lies. Hell, my sister is on the very-thin side, and most guys just think there's something wrong with her. When I was a kid, the big model around town was Tyra Banks, who weighed in at 160-165lbs. Society, by and large, does not like skeletons. I call it magic as a direct insult, because that is what subjectivity ultimately comes down to. Knowing the causes for someone's standards of beauty and desires allows one to exercise scrutiny on those causes, as well as exercise a degree of control over them. You can compare and contrast, evaluate those standards, judge them on internal and external consistency, and evaluate their accuracy and their outcomes. I'd argue that this is ultimately good, but the caveat is that this all leads to a series of moral obligations that one has to fulfill. First, the obligation of self-evaluation. Second, the obligation to attempt to be beautiful. Third, the obligation to spread this wisdom. Misandrism is the hatred of men. Men usually aren't burdened with the expectations of living up to unrealistic body images. Perhaps you meant to call me misogynistic instead? I can point to decades of rail thin models being the standard of beauty, from Twiggy on. Only more recently have beauty magazines portrayed more realistically proportioned women, and yes, Tyra Banks had something to do with it. It was a big deal a while back, so you can claim it's just me, but it isn't. And nor am I a "misandrist" in any case. Your willfully insulting notions on subjectivity have been so noted. At least you're honest enough to admit your intent is to insult. Is this a good example of you attempting to "be beautiful"? Since you set out to be insulting, I didn't bother to read much of the rest of what you had to offer. Seemed like a low signal/noise ratio and mostly a regurgitation of outmoded Catholic doctrine combined with Parler talking points, and after calling my views on female models "misandry", well... Might as well have just said: "Everyone but me is stupid and wrong." Edited June 7, 2021 by Danger Ferret.6342 gps 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiamat.8254 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 So, what you're saying is that a company should remove players from their games based on subjective criteria because you say so. Good job. Way to ruin role playing. 🤦♂️ 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabenpriester.7129 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 31 minutes ago, Danger Ferret.6342 said: Men usually aren't burdened with the expectations of living up to unrealistic body images. I think you just don't notice. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Ferret.6342 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, rabenpriester.7129 said: I think you just don't notice. I'm not saying there aren't unrealistic expectations for men to live up to in society, but I've never felt unusually burdened by any societal expectation that I comply with them. Like, for example, I've never felt compelled to wear makeup to work because a boss expects it, or to spend time in a gym because anyone other than myself wants me to do so. No one has ever insisted that I smile because I just look so much prettier when I do. Edited June 7, 2021 by Danger Ferret.6342 2 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: On beauty: Beauty is aesthetic morality. It is the harmony of physical elements, with everything in proper proportion and in its proper place. I think that's how Aristotle described it, or maybe some other really old guy. But really, it isn't that complicated of an idea. No matter what you're looking at or what somebody has made, this is the definition of beauty that applies. Beauty is also not as subjective as you'd think. We're all humans, after all, so our brains like similar things and react to colors and shapes in similar ways. We're designed to recognize faces, purple is the most stand-offish color because of how our brains handle colors, etc. When someone says that beauty is subjective, they're taking advantage of a lack of information to try and make an argument. There are some philosophical underpinnings and desires that go into a person's view of aesthetic morality, and if you know what those underpinnings are then what they want/like makes logical sense. It only seems like it is random and magical if you don't know those factors. Take... humans, for an example. When it comes to standards of beauty in humans, it all ultimately represents one thing: health. This is done for a few reasons, particularly to avoid disease and check for fertility, and it isn't always super straightforward, but all around the world the prime consideration for beauty is health. Differences in aesthetic ideals between cultures comes down to geological determinance: the features that were important for survival in that area become the "healthy" features, which is what is looked for. Yes, there are some general standarts that impact how we perceive beauty. However, first, they are very general and unprecise, and, second, you already noticed how the same basis principles can result in different aestethical expressions depending on geographical (and historical) location. What you described is general psychological mechanism how each person's aestethical sense is shaped by their environment. Notice, however, the "shaped" part. It is what makes the whole situation subjective. Theoretically, it is probably completely possible to shape someone's sense of aestethics towards seeing what we generally consider ugly as beautiful ("all" it would require is full control of said person's stimuli and environment in their gowing up phase. So, generally, a very costly and time consuming experiment, even if we don't consider the ethical part) 2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: #2: Peacocking. Funny thing about aesthetics is that it is worse off to be immemorable than to be either ugly or pretty. So, players will take all of their flashy items, throw them onto their toon, and make a walking disco nightmare. It screams LOOK AT ME and it gets all the attention. Even if it looks terrible, so long as it is memorably terrible, then that is good enough. And yet peacocks are generally considered to be beautiful. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Ha. A lot of fancy-schmancy talk going on here. I will just leave this: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 🐸 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Ferret.6342 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Just now, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said: Ha. A lot of fancy-schmancy talk going on here. I will just leave this: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 🐸 As a D&D player, I'm now terrified. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 23 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said: Taste might be subjective, but beauty isn't. Beauty has objective criteria, and if you claim that beauty is "subjective" as well, that means we live in a world where I can't say that the Chambord Castle and the Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque aren't objectively beautiful buildings. It should also be noted that studies have shown that newborn babies, still too young to be tainted by any form of beauty standards biases, have been shown to react positively to traditionally beautiful faces and traits. "Subjective" is thrown around way too much these days. I thoroughly dislike this word. While I agree with the whole subjective being thrown around a lot I disagree on beauty. Beauty is something that varies person by person due to taste, you can say you find those buildings beautiful because they are to you.. they might be for the vast majority of people but they may not be to everybody. Some people may not even have the ability to even appreciate them or what they represent. Take for example the London Eye, plenty of people like that. But I personally think it's a hideous monstrosity.. I'd go so far as to say I genuinely hate it and London is uglier because of it lol But that's just my opinion. If someone else say's they think the eye is beautiful, there's no point arguing with them over it because it's just an opinion at the end of the day. Some traits may appeal on a broader scale to more people.. but at the end of the day it still comes down to individual opinion and taste. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aodlop.1907 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: When I was a kid, the big model around town was Tyra Banks, who weighed in at 160-165lbs. "lbs"? Alright, new target. Forget about fashion. People who should get banned are now those who use the Imperial system. 1 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaxares.5419 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I too find the overuse of overly shiny/flashy effects rather obnoxious, but... *shrug* people have the right to dress their characters up as they wish. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 What does the OP look like irl and ig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I'm not sure if this has come up yet, but with all this debate about beauty standards I think another thing to consider is that not everyone wants their characters to be beautiful. My characters are just that: characters filling a role in a story, with a personality and backstory and life experiences (or the Dream of other's experiences) which have shaped them into the person they are today. Not all of them are going to fit my culture's current beauty standards, or those from other places and times because that's not the intention. Likewise they don't always wear what I think are the nicest, coolest or most impressive skins, they wear what I think that character would choose to wear (or have to wear) in that situation. It might look totally impractical by human standards, but that's ok because they're not human (like my sylvari walking through snow in the orchid 'shoes' which are just vines around her ankles), it might glow if it's supposed to be visibly magical, it might look very shabby and grey/brown if it's supposed to blend in with shabby grey brown surroundings. At any given time other people might think it looks ugly, or I might think it looks ugly, but thats ok because sometimes ugly is part of visual story telling. (I mean look at all the mileage Star Wars got out of deliberately making a crappy looking space ship, an idea which was pretty much unheard of in the 70's.) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 On 6/6/2021 at 6:34 AM, Aodlop.1907 said: Yes. I suggest you read Kant, on beauty and intersubjectivity. It's a pretty interesting read, and I'm sure it will make you reevaluate and question some deeply rooted convictions of yours. Yeah, because Kant isn't an ancient Dead White Male who delved into metaphysics, which isn't real. 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aodlop.1907 Posted June 7, 2021 Author Share Posted June 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Mortifera.6138 said: because Kant isn't an ancient Dead White Male Ah yes, being white, and being a man. The most terrible crimes one can commit. 3 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said: "lbs"? Alright, new target. Forget about fashion. People who should get banned are now those who use the Imperial system. Finally you're correct about something 😁 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, Aodlop.1907 said: Ah yes, being white, and being a man. The most terrible crimes one can commit. Well if he were a female of color at that time and place, no one would take his 'metaphysics' seriously. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyncale.1629 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 I think my Chak Egg infusion looks stupid, with the colorful soapbubbles popping around me, but hey, it is my most expensive item, gotta flaunt it. Btw, never got *any* comment on it so I am guessing everyone is admiring me in silence. I only got 2 of the 5 Legendary Trinkets so I dare not wear those, I feel like a pauper. This game is such a harsh environment for the unfashionable. 😞 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boh.4568 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 The only fashion item that should automatically delete your character as soon as you select it is SSJ hair for Charr. This is completely objective. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Mortifera.6138 said: Well if he were a female of color at that time and place, no one would take his 'metaphysics' seriously. You don't know that unless there would be a female of color that wrote exactly the same at the exactly same time as he did though. Not only that, but that's somehow supposed to be his ""fault"" for being born a white male, which is why you absolutely need to keep pointing out BS like that as if that means anything?🙃 You know you're a hypocrite atm, right? Edited June 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758 2 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: You don't know that unless there would be a female of color that wrote exactly the same at the exactly same time as he did though. Not only that, but that's somehow supposed to be his ""fault"" for being born a white male, which is why you absolutely need to keep pointing out BS like that as if that means anything?🙃 You know you're a hypocrite atm, right? You know you’re the hypocrite, right? Philosophers are themselves not about “knowing” but about questioning what can’t be answered. The moment it’s answered, it’s science, not philosophy. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 Just now, Mortifera.6138 said: You know you’re the hypocrite, right? How exactly am I a hypocrite? Just now, Mortifera.6138 said: Philosophers are themselves not about “knowing” but about questioning what can’t be answered. The moment it’s answered, it’s science, not philosophy. Did you even understand what I wrote? And your post I was answering to wasn't talking about any phylosophical issue, so your response here seems just disconnected from what you've quoted. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said: How exactly am I a hypocrite? Did you even understand what I wrote? And your post I was answering to wasn't talking about any phylosophical issue, so your response here seems just disconnected from what you've quoted. You’re a hypocrite because you accuse me of not “knowing” for certain, when you are defending a philosopher, who doesn’t “know” anything for certain. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Mortifera.6138 said: You’re a hypocrite because you accuse me of not “knowing” for certain, when you are defending a philosopher, who doesn’t “know” anything for certain. How does that make me a hypocrite? I'm not defending his work, I'm talking about your stupid race-baiting that's irrelevant to anything. Nothing about that makes me somehow a hypocrite just because it involves the person that was a philosopher. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lezbefriends.7516 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Sobx.1758 said: How does that make me a hypocrite? I'm not defending his work, I'm talking about your stupid race-baiting that's irrelevant to anything. Nothing about that makes me somehow a hypocrite just because it involves the person that was a philosopher. You can’t not bring his ‘work’ into this. The argument is that the quality of his work is exaggerated due to his sex and race. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 7, 2021 Share Posted June 7, 2021 (edited) Just now, Mortifera.6138 said: You can’t not bring his ‘work’ into this. The argument is that the quality of his work is exaggerated due to his sex and race. Maybe re-read my initial comment you've responded to with understanding and see how irrelevant your weird take is. Edited June 7, 2021 by Sobx.1758 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts