Biggest Problem with GW2

[VoidNard.7206]

Ever since the introduction of elite specs, there has been power creep with every class, but also a complexity creep. Adding more and more stuff to a class doesn't mean it makes it more fun to play or better. In short, GW2 should be easy to learn but hard to master. The game is far from friendly for new players, especially when you reach the pvp and end game pve content. GW2 isn't the only game with this problem. WoW also has these kind of gameplay issues, but in reverse, where the games keeps getting simpler.  I think the youtube video by MightyTeapot, which was released a video a couple weeks ago, best summarizes what I think. He perfectly explains this concept and makes a great analogy to chess. 

 

This is just me, but I wish GW2 would get a mega profession overhaul to change how class gameplay works. I'm worried this issue will only get worse with the new expansion. I just hope some devs check this video out, because the MightyTeapot explains it so much better than I. 

 

Here's a link to the video. I highly recommend you watch it: 

 

 

 

[Infusion.7149]

Or maybe they shouldn't have 1 skill do 4 things at once. 😁

[VoidNard.7206]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Or maybe they shouldn't have 1 skill do 4 things at once. 😁

 

Yeah exactly! like one skill giving you 4 buffs, doing condi dmg, power dmg, evade, cc and healing all at once.

 

[lezbefriends.7516]

I miss 2 button rotation Classic WoW. Now you have MMOs like FF14 that suffer from ability bloat. It feels... like an accident they can't fix.

[Danikat.8537]

Isn't having a lot more to learn once you reach the end game exactly what 'easy to learn but hard to master' means?

 

I like that personally, but then I've always liked complicated RPGs with lots of skills to choose from, even when I was a kid and I didn't have a clue what I was doing with them I liked that there was all this stuff to experiment with and different ways of approaching the same battles. (I remember feeling like I'd made a real break through when I learned that in DnD a half-orc would always be a stronger fighter than an elf, but the elf was a better wizard.)

 

Maybe they could add some sort of late-game tutorial to make sure players going into the expansions know things like what defiance bars are, what different conditions do, that it's important to use specialisations and skills which complement each other and so on but I'd be disappointed if they started cutting stuff out for fear it might be confusing.

[AliamRationem.5172]

If this were a game where classes changed dramatically on a fairly regular basis with big content updates, then I don't think anyone would have an issue.  But this isn't that sort of game.  Many GW2 players will focus on just one class as their favorite and become very comfortable with the particular class or spec they enjoy.  Rewriting them all to simplify the game play would very likely ruin the game for players like this.

 

GW2's solution to this problem are new specs.  For instance, if you can't handle piano core kit engi, there's relatively simple holosmith or scrapper builds run with few or no kits.  But take away that kit engi and you will alienate a lot of players!

[kharmin.7683]

Biggest problem with GW2 is the many players who believe that the game should be changed to cater to their preferences rather than adapt to the game as designed.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

The more abilities and options the better. It's not our fault Anet can't balance it.

[Fuchslein.8639]

I think the elite specs are one of the best things about GW2. And what makes them so good is that while there is a certain meta in the endgame, you can otherwise play whatever you want. And even in the endcontent you have so much freedom. AND even in the meta spectrum there are different builds, or classes play differently. That was one of the most fun things for me in GW2. Playing raids and fractals and mastering the really hard builds, competing with two friends, or just rolling over the keyboard with my Thief or Mirage and still making top dmg.

I haven't seen teapot's video, as he's not exactly one of my favorites when it comes to GW2 content. But I think GW2 is 90% designed for new players and rather see the problem there . GW2 is super easy to learn, but Anet is not exactly a motivating teacher who encourages his "students" to get better. Anet is such a teacher where it is enough if his students can do the most necessary and the rest does not matter to him. In my opinion.

[Mik.3401]

I think in general elite specs and their aim to allow every class fill different roles are not a very good idea.

I get that the devs want to satisfy the needs of their consumers, like for instance Ele mains moaning since the beginning they want to have sword like Mesmers do etc. (now they moved to greatsword). Or people wanting healer builds for instance.

But in result we got a few sets of overpowered builds, leaving the core classes way behind. I think it should have never happened - instead they should have just added more utility and elite skills into the game to allow some more variety. GW1 had hundreds of skills and yet was not as unbalanced as GW2. 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I think in general elite specs and their aim to allow every class fill different roles are not a very good idea.

 

How did you come to the conclusion that this is the idea Anet has in the first place, especially considering the game doesn't rely on roles to begin with?

 

I don't see the problem the OP is talking about ... why? because we have choice to play whatever we want. It doesn't matter if Anet has released more complex especs over time ... the old, simpler ones are still there for people to play if that's the style they like. And because we DON'T have roles in content and we DON'T have high thresholds for success, nothing prevents people from playing the old, simpler specs except their own decisions to not play them. 

 

The OP is wrong ... neither power creep or complexity is a problem in this game. If anything, it broadens the palette of playstyles for the entire playerbase. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Danikat.8537]

Anet have always wanted every profession to be able to fill every role that might be needed, that was one of the ways they promoted the game even when it was first released; saying you'd be able to complete content with any combination of races or professions instead of having to find specific ones or pressure your friends into swapping to get the team setup the content required. That's part of the reason everyone always has a healing skill and at least some damage skills.

 

Although they also see roles differently to most MMOs (except in raids for some reason). If I remember correctly they said the different aspects of combat could be broken down to damage, support, control and I think there was a 4th one, and that all professions would have options for all these things, they'd just do it in different ways.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

One of the few rare videos from a streamer I watched. It has some interesting ideas and looks on certain aspects of the game with an alternative point of view - opposite to what I normally see on these boards. But I do not think the game can be changed drastically enough, without breaking it in half. Everything we have today, everything we play with was build around the combat-system.

 

Same problem with the common WvW community request "let's just get rid of downed state completely!" It does work in a very small scale for a very short time, but it would break the entire game if it was applied to the whole game permanently. It is part of the foundation, if removed everything would just fall over. 

 

I took the video as an inspiration and motivation to craft builds that allow someone to play most of the content, while being as less complicated as possible. Compared to the meta-stuff, that just aims for best score and screws the physical & mental limitations of an average human, this is really challenging. Not focusing on style or efficiency, just playability.

[frareanselm.1925]

3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

If this were a game where classes changed dramatically on a fairly regular basis with big content updates, then I don't think anyone would have an issue.  But this isn't that sort of game.  Many GW2 players will focus on just one class as their favorite and become very comfortable with the particular class or spec they enjoy.  Rewriting them all to simplify the game play would very likely ruin the game for players like this.

 

GW2's solution to this problem are new specs.  For instance, if you can't handle piano core kit engi, there's relatively simple holosmith or scrapper builds run with few or no kits.  But take away that kit engi and you will alienate a lot of players!

The thing is learning piano isnt rewarding when you do the same dps with other spam-button builds.

[Mik.3401]

42 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

Anet have always wanted every profession to be able to fill every role that might be needed, that was one of the ways they promoted the game even when it was first released; saying you'd be able to complete content with any combination of races or professions instead of having to find specific ones or pressure your friends into swapping to get the team setup the content required. That's part of the reason everyone always has a healing skill and at least some damage skills.

 

Although they also see roles differently to most MMOs (except in raids for some reason). If I remember correctly they said the different aspects of combat could be broken down to damage, support, control and I think there was a 4th one, and that all professions would have options for all these things, they'd just do it in different ways.

I remember that time as well and I used to think it was very promising. Little did they know for instance some classes would be able to heal much more than others and in result strict meta would emerge making different roles exclusive to chosen sets of classes in practice.

I don’t see anything wrong with that, at the end  enabling every class to do everything could only materialise in perfect balance (utopian) world. Introducing elite specs may allow classes to do more things, but at the end only one/two builds can be meta. So it’s like raising the bar on and on to infinity.

 

[Obtena.7952]

40 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

I remember that time as well and I used to think it was very promising. Little did they know for instance some classes would be able to heal much more than others and in result strict meta would emerge making different roles exclusive to chosen sets of classes in practice.

I don’t see anything wrong with that, at the end  enabling every class to do everything could only materialise in perfect balance (utopian) world. Introducing elite specs may allow classes to do more things, but at the end only one/two builds can be meta. So it’s like raising the bar on and on to infinity.

 

NO. That's not true. Enabling every class to do whatever they want materializes in THIS world where there is a wide range of builds that can be used to be successful. What is Meta is IRRELEVANT unless you CHOOSE to only play optimal comps.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[SinisterSeven.2781]

 

13 hours ago, VoidNard.7206 said:

Ever since the introduction of elite specs, there has been power creep with every class, but also a complexity creep. Adding more and more stuff to a class doesn't mean it makes it more fun to play or better. In short, GW2 should be easy to learn but hard to master. The game is far from friendly for new players, especially when you reach the pvp and end game pve content. GW2 isn't the only game with this problem. WoW also has these kind of gameplay issues, but in reverse, where the games keeps getting simpler.  I think the youtube video by MightyTeapot, which was released a video a couple weeks ago, best summarizes what I think. He perfectly explains this concept and makes a great analogy to chess. 

 

This is just me, but I wish GW2 would get a mega profession overhaul to change how class gameplay works. I'm worried this issue will only get worse with the new expansion. I just hope some devs check this video out, because the MightyTeapot explains it so much better than I. 

 

Here's a link to the video. I highly recommend you watch it: 

with respect, I disagree. The points you've suggested can be refused fairly easily by just standard discussion of the game.

 

I don't see an urgent need for a mass overhaul, you are absolutely free to think as you wish, though.

 

You can embrace that choice, much as new players embrace the level 80 skips and HP trains and deeply regret it later in Heart of Thorns, as an example =]

[Mik.3401]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

NO. That's not true. Enabling every class to do whatever they want materializes in THIS world where there is a wide range of builds that can be used to be successful. What is Meta is IRRELEVANT unless you CHOOSE to only play optimal comps.

This is how it should be I agree, but in reality for instance I don’t think many people would agree to take healing tempest over hfb for fractal group. Simply because most people want to speed run through it. Raids appear to be more open but I am sure there are limits to straying away from meta

Edited June 25, 2021 by Mik.3401

[Jski.6180]

I think pushing the game back to being combo base would go a long way OR just removing combos altogether to drop a lot of outdated power creep to effects would work as well but would make me super sad.

 

Both things will be a massive pull back of power creep of effects. A kind of a turning point do you go back to the core game or do you move on from the core game.

 

But for sure this needs to happen now before EoD or near the adding of the expansion as this game will no longer be updatable as much (this could be the last real expansion so the last time we will see major content.)

[lezbefriends.7516]

6 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

I think pushing the game back to being combo base would go a long way OR just removing combos altogether to drop a lot of outdated power creep to effects would work as well but would make me super sad.

 

Both things will be a massive pull back of power creep of effects. A kind of a turning point do you go back to the core game or do you move on from the core game.

 

But for sure this needs to happen now before EoD or near the adding of the expansion as this game will no longer be updatable as much (this could be the last real expansion so the last time we will see major content.)

Ehh, twice now ANet has learned that they can't go on without expansions. I hope they don't forget this time and keep giving us more.

[Jski.6180]

Just now, Mortifera.6138 said:

Ehh, twice now ANet has learned that they can't go on without expansions. I hope they don't forget this time and keep giving us more.

I just do not think we will get major expansion after this one maybe they will move more to DLC and they could make a lot of money that way. Something like a DLC will not come with what needed to update the core game that is a wash in old out dated power creep vs new non game fitting power creep.

[Tzarakiel.7490]

I remember watching that video and completely disagreeing with his solution to the problem. Personally I consider long cooldowns to be a blight on video games. If I can't use an ability regularily enough for it to affect my gameplay and get good with it, then it might as well not exist.
I also HATE it when I have to rely too heavily on my auto attacks. Auto attacks are the least fun aspects of mmos. I would rather have a few purposeful actions per minute that hit harder than spam a single skill forever. I want everything I do to have an impact and giving me more abilities to use or ways to use them (within reason) is usually better.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

This is how it should be I agree, but in reality for instance I don’t think many people would agree to take healing tempest over hfb for fractal group. Simply because most people want to speed run through it. Raids appear to be more open but I am sure there are limits to straying away from meta

What some people are agreeable or not agreeable to is irrelevant though; it doesn't change how the game is designed and how it works. Again, just because some people want optimal play does NOT mean this game has not enabled classes to do a wide range of things and doesn't allow people to play how they want.

 

In fact, it's quite evident the game does exactly the thing you claim is only possible in a utopian setting. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Mortifera.6138 said:

Ehh, twice now ANet has learned that they can't go on without expansions. I hope they don't forget this time and keep giving us more.

1000000% agree.

 

Hopefully another thing they learned is that terrible throwaway mastery lines and lack of elite specs is not what players consider "expansion-like" content.

 

As for the OP here - I, too, saw that Teapot video and thought he made some pretty good points about the long-term challenge facing GW2. That said, this game is not particularly complex from a "what features are included" aspect. Instead, the complexity comes from "how players use the included features". I think this is actually decent design, and am disappointed that so many people find the system difficult to adapt to.

 

It's... objectively combat is really not that hard in this game. Every class has access to heals, escapes, boons, etc. You don't have to have a steady 60+ FPS to win fights, you don't have to wait for 0.25s windows between iframes to catch other players, and frankly you just don't have all that many active abilities to work with compared to the massively bloated skill bars of other games. I don't think there is any need to further simplify the combat system.

[EyzKold.8247]

Besides having my account blocked atm for security reasons, I think the overall game play is great and the visuals are really good.   There is a learning curve and that what makes it fun.  This game is not WOW or ESO.  Trying to change it to be like the other mmos would be boring.  What sold me on this was the overall friendly community as well as the flying and underwater activities.  I could go on.