You've been mislead (again)

[jul.7602]

I see a lot of unnecessary and misplaced hype circulating in the community, especially about WvW being the new "cornerstone" of the next expansion. Frankly, those that have put such faith and soon money in the next expansion hoping for things to be different will only end up disappointed, and perhaps even angry that they fell for the same trick as before. I've played this game for nearly a decade and have seen about every PR stunt you can imagine. Big promises, followed lack luster execution, then silence. I'm giving the hard, blunt and unpopular truth. You are all being taken for a ride once more. I mean what did you expect Anet to say? That WvW would *not* be a focus and will see no changes for the forseeable future... but also please spend 30+ dollars on our new expo anyway?

 

Anyway, I have some serious doubts on the theory of alliances, and even more skeptics on the ability of Anet to execute it. Remember Desert BL? Everyone was hyping up the new map, and then when it was released and made the default map instead alpine borderlands, WvW nearly died. I'm sorry to say this, and I fully expect this post to be purged, but those believing that new expansion will fix anything will be sorely let down. 

 

I will be taking screenshots of this post and archiving it on my desktop, just in case this is removed, so that I can come back 2 years later and tell you that I was right all along.

[XenesisII.1540]

You been reading the general section threads huh? cause I think most wvw veterans know better by now, the same ones that didn't hype desert, in fact pointed out a lot of problems which anet initially ignored.

 

This isn't the first hype rodeo for wvw, we know how it goes.

[Sviel.7493]

The expansion is next year while alliances are, in theory, this year.  I don't believe the hype either but this definitely isn't some nefarious plan to sell more ex-pacs.

Since WvW relies on a constant, massive playerbase, it would be foolish to lock it behind a paywall.  We've got a million problems, but that's probably not going to be one of them.

[anduriell.6280]

13 minutes ago, Molly Approved.5213 said:

They are releasing it as a beta this year, so they can have it polished for the expansion so that the expansion is now going to be needed in order to have alliances. Whether or not thats true, thats the kind of pr stunts the op was referring to.

It doesn't really matter when alliances is realeased, it has to be included in the core game as well. Just imagine all those new players with the free accounts be locked out from 1/3 of the game, it wouldn't make much sense. 

 

In any case the new elite specialization are enough to sell the expansion for PvPers, so there is no need to worry there. 

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

It doesn't really matter when alliances is realeased, it has to be included in the core game as well.

It will be and anyone who says otherwise dont know how GW2 works.

[LetoII.3782]

5 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

It will be and anyone who says otherwise dont know how GW2 works.

Agreed.

Massively OP new classes are always the hook

[K THEN.5162]

Doesn't matter what their PR rats say, 3 years with 3 instances of alliances communication is utterly pathetic. I'm pretty much convinced that what's going to happen with this supposed 2021 release is that it's going to be delayed with no proposed alternate date, and then they'll proceed to go silent on it for another 2 years.

 

I'll be laughing from the sidelines 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

you make it seem like anet is some evil overlord deleting any posts critical of their regime, big lollers

[Telgum.6071]

WvW community hates it's own game mode.

 

Uhhhh remove tactics.

Uhhhh remove the new map.

Uhhhh remove the warclaw.

Uhhhh remove defenses.

Uhhhh remove zergs.

Uhhhh removes alliances (soon).

 

Yet they keep playing. There is even a guy who claims not playing the game at all yet he's everywhere in this forum complaining about WvW. No wonder Anet abandoned WvW.

[Diku.2546]

Borrowing from the Desert Border Land meme...

 

Alliances meme will be very similar.

 

Build & Massively Crash on implementing the reason or purpose behind the project ... Piece things together ... then Ignore the Failure & Continue like nothing happened ... WvW Community then learns to live with it.

 

My opinion is that Alliances will prevent this game mode from ever being able to host healthy competitive tournaments ... because Alliance is using Team manipulation to fix a flawed Match-Up model ... instead of fixing the model itself.

 

We're painting WvW into a corner to fail as a cornerstone game mode...

 

3 Critical Insights:

 

1)  Alliances will give Guilds too much power over the game mode to manipulate the manipulator of Teams.

 

2)  Leader & Officers of a Guild are human & subject to emotional extremes.

 

3)  Game mode over time has the potential to nurture toxic relationships & encourage a "power" keg ecosystem that is not healthy.

 

Internal Power Struggles are fundamental for Large Guilds over time.

 

Hope I don't have to say this, but Told you so...

 

Yours truly,
Diku

 

Credibility requires critical insight & time.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Diku.2546

[ArchonWing.9480]

Alliances aren't going to do kitten.  Maybe 5 years ago it could have. Guilds already are/were capable of organizing and have been working together to form makeshift alliances already but this does nothing for your average player subset, nor does it really encourage non-wvwers into this game mode. Can you give a single reason why this would encourage any new player to play wvw? Will winning matter? Why should anyone care?

 

As long as the actual combat (you know content) is subject to this "1/2 year patch cadence and 5 changes" blob/run away and hide fest at all scales, nobody is going to take this game mode seriously. And they'd be right.

 

I mean lol, show (almost) any WvW content to any actually competitive gamer from outside this bubble and what would they see besides a clusterkitten of effects, lag, and almost nothing resembling competitive play?  A game mode where people regularly are proud of themselves for capturing mostly undefended structures?

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[XenesisII.1540]

12 hours ago, Molly Approved.5213 said:

They are releasing it as a beta this year, so they can have it polished for the expansion so that the expansion is now going to be needed in order to have alliances. Whether or not thats true, thats the kind of pr stunts the op was referring to.

 

Uh not unless they plan on cutting off wvw from ftp/core/hot/pof accounts because this is feature that will affect the base part of the game, it's not something optional, it's wvw version of mega server which also wasn't part of an expansion. Another example of this is the desert map and tactivators, both from the same expansion but desert is required to play wvw because it's a map that everyone needs access to, they cannot restrict maps, tactivators however are guild optional features that are not required for wvw to function so it was fine if that was in an expansion.

 

______________________________________

 

As for alliances usefulness these days, it will still somewhat help balance out the pug population, although that seemed to be something more needed in the past (for servers like BG, but it seems guilds have finally gotten a clue). It will also help calm major bandwagon transfers since all worlds are reshuffled for free every two months and free to join your guild world every time. But depending on how they handle transfer after, if it's something like 500 gems to move than yeah there will be major jumps to winning servers and this will all be for nothing, but if it's like 2-3k to move you'll have people thinking twice about it.

 

The hope after that would be a more balanced population between servers so that they can run stuff like tournaments, winning could have some meaning again. But there needs to be more for people to give a care about winning again, like winning a couple more green bags ain't going to cut it, they might want to think about maybe going down the road to do seasonal play like in diablo or path of exile for rewards, like nameplates, icons, titles, cosmetics etc.

 

Oh.. and well the meta for classes and combat needs to get healthy, cause it's currently boring, stale, unappealing. Not much point playing if you can't at least enjoy those two aspects of the game. For me anyways...

[LetoII.3782]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

.

show (almost) any WvW content to any actually competitive gamer from outside this bubble and what would they see besides a clusterkitten of effects, lag, and almost nothing resembling competitive play?  A game mode where people regularly are proud of themselves for capturing mostly undefended structures?

 

Exactly what I've heard when showing Gw2 to anyone outside the genre lol. 

Half "I can't tell what's going on" and the other half "do they always stand around so much?"

 

And yet the Fight Blobs would swear that they're the only ones playing right.. And now they'll be handed the keys to the realm entire.

 

...and timesones will still be a clusterkitty, wait and see xd

[Substance E.4852]

21 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Alliances aren't going to do kitten.  Maybe 5 years ago it could have. Guilds already are/were capable of organizing and have been working together to form makeshift alliances already but this does nothing for your average player subset, nor does it really encourage non-wvwers into this game mode. Can you give a single reason why this would encourage any new player to play wvw? Will winning matter? Why should anyone care?

 

I'm still waiting to see some kind of tangible explanation of how forming battles along guild alliance lines is supposed to allow un guilded newbie pugs to earn experience fighting organized guilds, much less demonstrate competence to potential guilds they want to join

Sounds like we're just going to end up with a WvW version of "Entry level job, 5 years experience required" that will make new players just avoid ever trying much in the same way they avoid end game pve

Edited July 6, 2021 by Substance E.4852

[Strider Pj.2193]

30 minutes ago, Substance E.4852 said:

I'm still waiting to see some kind of tangible explanation of how forming battles along guild alliance lines is supposed to allow un guilded newbie pugs to earn experience fighting organized guilds, much less demonstrate competence to potential guilds they want to join
 

Sounds like we're just going to end up with a WvW version of "Entry level job, 5 years experience required" that will make new players just avoid ever trying much in the same way they avoid end game pve

The same way they do now…. Play with the guilds and show an interest in getting better.

 

or don’t.  You would actually have more of a choice then you do now.

 

 

[Substance E.4852]

7 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

The same way they do now…. Play with the guilds and show an interest in getting better.

 

or don’t.  You would actually have more of a choice then you do now.

 

 

>play with the guilds

How? Post implementation, they are going to be in their own alliance matchups that you can't just pug join like you can now

People are also going to stack guild alliances to the ceiling because numbers = victory in this mode which means you're going to have to show some actual competence to get an invite, not just be on a meta class

It's a great system for people already steeped in the mode but will banish new players to EotM style, pug chaos swarm purgatory and we all know how well that worked out in the end

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Substance E.4852
It would appear you haven’t read what a ‘world’ will consist of. 

for each period, a world will be made up of 1-2 alliances, with non affiliated guilds and solo players to balance.  So..  you will be on the same world with some of those alliances and guilds.

 

if you don’t want to join one, then you’ll be fine.  Rotating groups ever 8 ish weeks.

 

if you want to join one, most would be willing to let you join as long as you show some modicum of interest in helping them.

 

of course, there will always be elitist guilds.  But honestly, they will be the exception.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Strider Pj.2193

[Junkpile.7439]

Well everything is better than this kitten. They could send every player in random match and WvW would still be much better than now. 😎

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

for each period, a world will be made up of 1-2 alliances

Well that's not true since an alliance would not be a predetermined number. Anet cant know how many alliances we as players will or will not create and how large they will be. The example they originally posted was an example at max capacity.

1 large alliance with 500 players could in theory be matched against 10 smaller alliances also totalling 500 players.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well that's not true since an alliance would not be a predetermined number. Anet cant know how many alliances we as players will or will not create and how large they will be. The example they originally posted was an example at max capacity.

1 large alliance with 500 players could in theory be matched against 10 smaller alliances also totalling 500 players.

That is true.  Thank you for that clarification.  
 

@Dawdler.8521is correct in that the initial statements (which may still change..) did not specify how many alliances would make up a World.  
 

The initial example diagram noted two alliances forming one of the worlds.

 

I think the takeaway is that the world make-ups may vary.  And will be malleable for some aspects of size to make matchups comparable from a size perspective.  (Play hours at least)

 

they had been ‘clear’ noting that it would not take coverage into account..  (At least in the initial post and the two follow up posts).

 

Which, as usual, is where this has the potential to be ‘gamed’. An alliance could recruit multiple guilds of multiple time zones.

 

or… the SEA group could form its own alliance and effectively swing most matchups.  
 

of course it would mean fighting doors but….  We see that today.

 

 

[Hackuuna.4085]

Quote

The cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation. All other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure. --https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone

Aside from the original design of the warrior bubble, and perhaps purity of purpose, WvW has never been a reference point for any part of this game. It's simply been filled in as things around it were built. I really don't see how WvW could be accurately described as a cornerstone.

 

ANet, I hope that now that you label it as cornerstone, you will actually do significant development with WvW in mind first.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Hackuuna.4085

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Which, as usual, is where this has the potential to be ‘gamed’. An alliance could recruit multiple guilds of multiple time zones.

 

or… the SEA group could form its own alliance and effectively swing most matchups.  
 

of course it would mean fighting doors but….  We see that today.

We see all of that today. Well maybe not worlds recruiting guilds so much, but groups of guilds bandwagoning across worlds... guilds that often have specific commanders which could for example run night. The alliance system itself would do nothing to change that. It's "supposed" to be self-balancing along with the proposed 7+1 week free transfer period so that guilds actually can easily shift around. If one alliance is strong, another just as strong is meant to step up, just like matchups. Are there enough players? Who knows.

[Strider Pj.2193]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

We see all of that today. Well maybe not worlds recruiting guilds so much, but groups of guilds bandwagoning across worlds... guilds that often have specific commanders which could for example run night. The alliance system itself would do nothing to change that. It's "supposed" to be self-balancing along with the proposed 7+1 week free transfer period so that guilds actually can easily shift around. If one alliance is strong, another just as strong is meant to step up, just like matchups. Are there enough players? Who knows.

I guess we agree then.  As with any system, there will be ways to game it.  
 

I happen to like the fact that with new world creation, your guild has the ability to recruit new players that can then travel with you to the next ‘world’.

 

And to me, this is its biggest strength.  Unlike today where people would need to actually transfer to a new link server every 8 weeks if the server of the guild they want to join is full.

 

I don’t pretend that Alliances will be better overall, never mind ‘perfect’, as full details still aren’t out, and, even though we have a ‘coming soon’ date, that means nothing.  
 

I tend to believe we are being punked.

 

But I also don’t like when others (not you dawdler) misrepresent what alliances is supposed to be based on info we have for now 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

it just comes really late. the amounts of players waiting for the expansion isn't too small.

 

still, there can be no doubt that any system change isn't improving Wvw, after all. the symptomatic "t1 dies out" happens with such a consistency. half of the linkings overall are completely unplayable and not enjoyable for anyone

 

like, the only big question these days really is "so where to go without regretting it in 3 weeks"... the big hope is that the alliances/guildbased system creates more unity, better matchups, less randomness, more overview and therefore equality, and also avoids constant bandwagoners.

 

what will now be really interesting is: when is "this year" & how exactly will the final "alliances" (or even the beta alliances) look?

 

but as said, we're kinda at one of the worst points. i kinda was no huge fan of many, if not most, matchups, even including those where i been in the top killranks... 😛

[Justine.6351]

I BELIEVE !

I AM GOING TO GO IN WVW RIGHT NOW AND LEARN EVERY CLASS AND MAKE ONE CHARACTER FOR EVERY  BUILD IN ANTICIPATION OF ALLIANCES !  I AM ALREADY PLANNING ON QUITING MY JOB TO BECOME A WVW STREAMER AS MY MAIN INCOME !

I BELIEVE !