twisted marionette is virtually unwinnable for a casual group

[coollizzylou.9387]

Now, let me just preface this with saying that i do expect this to get better as the community adjusts to the new content and a widely accepted strategy is developed. That being said, I just finished attempting the twisted marionette several times. it's a really fun boss fight! i like it a lot! But as a person trying to lead it in the LFG for the community, it's virtually unwinnable with a disorganized or semi-organized squad.

 

here are the things that made it impossible:

1. the small number of available players in one squad (50) is simply not enough to complete the boss fight unless the group is hyper-organized: players must split the squad exactly ten to each lane to ensure the reasonable possibility of victory. Even with locked subgroups and many requests in text chat for players to stay in the lane their subgroup coincides with, this simply does not happen.
2. the wardens are nearly impossible to kill within the time limit, let alone the chain: because the amount of squad members are so limited, the maximum available players per platform is two. Oftentimes, these two players would not be able to duo a champion in the allotted time in the best conditions. The problem is compounded by the need to dodge attacks from the marionette and address mechanics from the warden. Additionally, if there are not the full 10 people in the lane, players will have to fight the boss solo. this can be extreamly frustrating as a heal focused character is almost guaranteed to be unable to kill the warden, while even the most skilled damage focused character will most likely be killed. And even if the warden is killed, the chain must also be destroyed. the time limit is simply too short for two players of varying skill and gear to do. For instance, I was playing my heal firebrand, and was put on a platform with another heal firebrand. We were only able to kill the warden because other players on a neighboring platform were able to use AoEs to assist us. We were not able to destroy the chain.
3. platform assignment will sometimes not fill a platform, leading to an automatic fail: this is probably the most frustrating thing about the marionette as it is. Because the players are so limited, whatever system that decides which players go on which platform is ineffective. As such, it is not uncommon for a platform to simply never have a player in it, leading to an automatic, unavoidable failure of the attempt. This in turns leads to confusion and frustration that is very hard to manage as a commander.

 

TLDR: there is simply not enough room for error for a semi-organized squad of casual players, largely stemming from the fact that there is a maximum of 50 players available. if the twisted marionette is superposed to be for only the most try-hard of players, then I'm sure it is very enjoyable for them. But for the rest of the community, it's practically impossible.

[Ayrilana.1396]

People were able to do it just fine years ago before the power creep. It’s barely been 3 hours since the update.   People just need time to learn the mechanics. 

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

10 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

People were able to do it just fine years ago before the power creep. It’s barely been 3 hours since the update.   People just need time to learn the mechanics. 

With a full map worth of people. Even with the power creep and the reduced health, the extreme reduction in the number of players in most attempts (probably 150ish per try back in S1 down to hard cap of 50 for private and ~70ish for public) means a number of the mechanics, such as splitting players across platforms, do not scale well. In particular, if you end up with a platform with all the straight healers in a group on it, it can instantly fail, which is causing some classes to be unplayable in the content (ie druids).

 

In many runs, you fail simply due to one platform being empty and nothing else, because there is no scaling to the player counts, for example by only having as many platforms active as there are players who go through the portals/2. These issues are not about the difficulty of the fight, they are basic design problems brought about by a too-direct port of the original setup which assumed much large player count. Unless this is made into a proper on-map worldboss again (honestly why isn't this just a real world boss on Lornar's Pass; not much going on in that map anyway) or adjustments are made for the player number issues, I doubt it will even be remotely doable after the end of public instances in a week.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Boogiepop Void.6473

[Ayrilana.1396]

Just now, Boogiepop Void.6473 said:

With a full map worth of people. Even with the power creep and the reduced health, the extreme reduction in the number of players in most attempts (probably 150ish per try back in S1 down to hard cap of 50 for private and ~70ish for public) means a number of the mechanics, such as splitting players across platforms, do not scale well.

 

In many runs, you fail simply due to one platform being empty and nothing else, because there is no scaling to the player counts, for example by only having as many platforms active as there are players who go through the portals/2. These issues are not about the difficulty of the fight, they are basic design problems brought about by a too-direct port of the original setup which assumed much large player count. Unless this is made into a proper on-map worldboss again (honestly why isn't this just a real world boss on Lornar's Pass; not much going on in that map anyway) or adjustments are made for the player number issues, I doubt it will even be remotely doable after the end of public instances in a week.

Like I said, it’s only been three hours and this event was always mechanics heavy. Platforms end up empty because players don’t split correctly. 
 

You’re not wrong about it being more difficult to do once everyone has gotten their achievements. 

[Abies.8754]

I went on a pretty organised squad. it failed.
my  group ( 10 ppl) were just fine.
the thing is on other groups, either some platforms would be empty for some reason, or people would just die... like they can't dodge or CC. with how builds and specializations are nowdays this shouldn't be hard and there are no excuses on its difficulty.
I find it nice and I would be annoyed if it got nerfed because people cant literally dodge and dps

[coollizzylou.9387]

9 minutes ago, Ayrilana.1396 said:

People were able to do it just fine years ago before the power creep. It’s barely been 3 hours since the update.   People just need time to learn the mechanics. 

that's valid! and i said that i expect that to happen. I just was trying to relate my experiences where hopefully the devs could see them. my main point isnt necessarily that the event itself is too hard, but that it's very difficult for disorganized groups because there's so little room for error, if that makes sense? because in my experience leading metas it's very hard to get every single person organized and doing mechanics, and that's what this seems to require. i hadn't meant for the post to come off as ungrateful or aggressive, i just wanted to share my concerns

[GonzoNeo.4965]

Agree, the old event was a world map for 100-150 players. This boss is clear not scaling well for 50 players . You can low the health of the plataform champions to try scale it for 50 people but the boss mechanics are not.

 

With 50 people perfectly organized  in 5 subgroups of 10 players , only 2 people will enter in each plataform  in best condition. 1 people afk in the entire squad   or going to other line will left 1 or 0 player  plataform automatically failing. Or the game decide 3-4 people will go to same plataform lefting 1 empty and failing automatically.

 

Is not the champions are hard or need to be tweaked, is the the event is clearly not meant for 50 players. In fact I prefer the original concept. Harder champions but about 5-6 person per plataform.

Edited July 13, 2021 by GonzoNeo.4965

[Boogiepop Void.6473]

18 minutes ago, Owatatsumi.5038 said:

I went on a pretty organised squad. it failed.
my  group ( 10 ppl) were just fine.
the thing is on other groups, either some platforms would be empty for some reason, or people would just die... like they can't dodge or CC. with how builds and specializations are nowdays this shouldn't be hard and there are no excuses on its difficulty.
I find it nice and I would be annoyed if it got nerfed because people cant literally dodge and dps

I agree that the actual difficulty is good. The issues are exactly things like completely empty platforms due to poor adjustments for player count. It shouldn't be possible to have an empty platform or a 1 person platform. I think it should be 3 per platform minumum, so that healing classes don't get excluded from the event entirely. Right now druids simply can't do the event as it's an instant fail if they end up alone on a platform.

 

A lot of the issues would be less to nonexistent if this were a proper world boss on Lornar's Pass instead of having these instance restricted player counts. 90% of the issues going on right now are only because of the reduced player count and issues related to it being an instance.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Boogiepop Void.6473

[Konrad Curze.5130]

I failed it 4 times in a row

 

The 4 times my lane was the only one that succeeded. 3 of those 4 times I had to solo a platform. 

 

I don't think at any point in time I saw people spreading correctly and evenly in any of my 4 attempts. 

 

Twisted marionette just highlights something g that is common knowledge by now:

 

Most GW2 players are not just incredibly bad, they are also tremendously, tremendously stupid

 

There is no fix for that

Edited July 13, 2021 by Konrad Curze.5130

[PepperMint.8509]

During one of my attempts, we made sure we have enough ppl to go on each platform and we managed to win second, third, and fourth round but we failed because of empty platforms. 
 

I think they should add scheduled public server like Dragonstorm where more than 50 ppl can join so that way it is easier for casual players. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by PepperMint.8509

[Follyfoot.2803]

A lot of the bosses are stupid hard.  Power to consume you - Gaze into nightmare.  Oh go kitten yourself.

They have NO mechanics.  It's just a matter of the game spamming you with death when in the area.  They are not looking in your direction, they are not aware of your presence.  Bosses are simply animated puppets.  That's how it feels when fighting a boss, your not fighting the boss, your fighting the game.

I discovered this when questioning why boss fights are rubbish in GW2 yet good fun in other games.

 

Rant off.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Follyfoot.2803

[DanAlcedo.3281]

This is exactly the difficulty i want from every single worldboss after this.

 

If you cant solo a champ with a single mechanic....

[LucianDK.8615]

Sounds like its not even worth bothering with this event if its this badly tuned.

[Abies.8754]

the event is nice. stop saying it is bad or anything.
People cannot understand what splitting means, what DPS is and how to dodge

[notebene.3190]

My first attempt was joining someone's squad. It went horribly. We failed after the second lane.

 

I learned how to join the public event, and it was a lot of fun.

[Abies.8754]

how did you join public event?

[Vilin.8056]

I just joined a private squad in LFG that cheesed the boss repeatedly.

 

All 50 squad players are required to run Condi Scourge in meta build, with a little adjustment on Parasitic Contagion and epidemic.

[Mana Garmr.7582]

16 minutes ago, Owatatsumi.5038 said:

how did you join public event?

Scrying pool in front of Aurene. Not sure if it's on a timer or what.

[Lexi.1398]

100% Agree, private is basically impossible to LFG/pug for, if you don't know ahead of time that EVERY single player in the squad can read and will follow instructions you will fail.

 

I think if required number of platforms cleared, and whatever system sorts people, was changed it'd be fine. Maybe try to assign 3 people to each platform and have a minimum of 2 people per platform (aka anyone left to solo is put on another platform instead), if there's no one on a platform make it not be required for completion.

OR, once a platform is cleared, allow people to move to other platforms. though this solution is not as much in the spirit of the event, but it would alleviate problems.

[Lenti.3189]

failed 3 times, theres no way to do this with 50 unless you are a very organized group with decent dps

id say that 70% of the last group we're good and they did everything right, but we failed the 3rd boss twice because of 1 platform was empty or the ppl assigned to it we're new and died

 

The entire fight is fun as hell but it makes no sense.

Make the group 100+, let us move to a dif platform once our boss is dead, something

 

Also is this a permanent fight now? or it ends forever in 6 days?

[Abies.8754]

Just managed with 50 ppl private.
The commander literally kicked tons of players who, did not wait and entered instance without waiting for commander to say so, who didnt go to their proper lanes and who afked even a little

 

we did it  we only failed 1 lane. was pretty smooth as it should be.
in conclusion, this needs brain usage, something that is rare on world bosses. and the yalso asked for 200 Li that most players had  if that makes sense.

[Abies.8754]

39 minutes ago, notebene.3190 said:

My first attempt was joining someone's squad. It went horribly. We failed after the second lane.

 

I learned how to join the public event, and it was a lot of fun.

I dont see public option on the scrying pool. is it like dragonstorm? same times?

[Farohna.6247]

Joined a public group at the two hour timer, groups organized themselves in each lane, with voluntary commanders taking over.  Biggest issue is people cc'ing.  My first time doing the fight, and it was pretty fun.  I think it will improve as people understand what they're doing better.  Happily had a successful first run.  I'd say it's more along the lines of Triple Trouble if you have disorganization or too few people.

[Farohna.6247]

1 minute ago, Owatatsumi.5038 said:

I dont see public option on the scrying pool. is it like dragonstorm? same times?

Yes, it's also every two hours.

[Tseison.4659]

So did a private squad with a good group of people, shout out to Jack Dreamwalker (probably typo) who was patient and helped with explaining mechanics to everyone those 5 runs.

• I found it frustrating that a lot of people who were fully dead didn't know they could use the emergency waypoint even when it was mentioned before starting. 
• Some people couldn't find their lane which again, was clearly explained before we started.
• Not many people knowing their class well or knowing to dodge

But at the end of the day, there were a few great runs but I do think some mobs can become too overbearing. Also during the platform phase, if certain platforms have been completed, we should atleast be able to portal over to help other platforms that are struggling.

 

As a note, I'm only talking about private and not public as public seems to be easier and gains more people to work with.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Tseison.4659