Kuma.1503 Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 (edited) A lot of people here have already expressed my grieveances with the class far better than I can. There's some quality feedback here, and I hope it gets taken into acount. My biggest girevance with willbender is that it's too selfish. It doesn't feel like a guardian. I don't know why we felt the need to give Guardian, the defender of the weak, the empowering presence on the battlefield, the mender and smiter alike, yet another selfish elite spec. Didn't we already have dragonhunter for that? This feels like dragonhunter 0.5 with the mobility on f2 split between all three virtues. What's more, it feels like there was more priority on giving willbender "trade-offs" than on creating an actual coherent and fun spec. Trade-offs aren't fun in and of themselves. Trade-offs aren't interesting in and of themselves. There needs to be a real pay-off for the trade-off to feel worth it, and it needs to feel naatural rather than shoe-horned to fill some arbetrary trade-off quota. A good example of a trade-off is deadeye. You lose: - instant cast steal -shadowstep on steal - Must kneel to get max value out of rifle, giving up trade-mark thief mobility -Easy target-swapping ability since you rely on targeting your mark You gain: Great self-boon uptime Unparalleled single target damage vs marked targets Easy access stealth to make up for kneeling mechanic A cool kitten sniper theme that really sells the fantasy of a deadeye These are trade-offs done in an intersting way. Gaining X power in exhange for Y toughness isn't interesting. It's just shufffling numbers around. I don't like saying this when it pretains to game design, because I feel like this word gets thrown around more often than it should, but it really feels like lazy design. These are placeholder traits. I hope they get reworked. Overall: Too selfish Uninteresting trade-offs with no payoff Doesn't feel like a guaridan. This is a warrior/thief elite spec not a guaridan Edited September 16, 2021 by Kuma.1503 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 Question to you guys if you brought a shout to get quickness on willbender would that make hammer viable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarox.9601 Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 4 hours ago, Axl.8924 said: Question to you guys if you brought a shout to get quickness on willbender would that make hammer viable? willie needs lots of stuff to be viable especially with a dead hammer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 10 hours ago, Axl.8924 said: Question to you guys if you brought a shout to get quickness on willbender would that make hammer viable? Nothing can make hammer viable. There is no place or content where GS is not significantly better. The only way for hammer to be viable is to get complete rework. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arken.3725 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 2 hours ago, otto.5684 said: Nothing can make hammer viable. There is no place or content where GS is not significantly better. The only way for hammer to be viable is to get complete rework. Let me compound this mans argument. I am currently sitting at #4 on the lb for spvp as a Core Power Guardian. Hammer is the worst weapon in the game and like otto mentioned, it needs a complete rework for it to be viable. Even with quickness it feels incredibly slow/clunky. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monarc.9726 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 If the goal of Willbender is to bend (or control) the will of others, my take on that is a CC heavy spec. That would make sense, in terms of dazes, stuns and knockdowns that are included in the Physical skills, but they're clunky right now. Sword OH also has immob, which fits that theme. It could become OP if they overdue it, and I get that, but I'd like to see the control aspect incorporated more into the virtues and traits, if this is meant to be the theme. If not, Willbender as the name doesn't really work. The main issue now is that the CC is only in the utility skills and doesn't allow for any build diversity. A good example is how Full Counter and boon removal is the core concept of Spellbreaker, but that playstyle is not (only) tied to utility skills. It's the core mechanic (F2), traits, and also MH dagger, and allows for the use of other weapons and trait diversity without losing the core concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarox.9601 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 willie so far is the worst spec 😄 williebenderover 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poledra Val.1490 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) Anyone else notice today how Willbender has the most trade offs in its traits so far. Meanwhile the new 3 specs we saw revealed today didnt have a single trade off in there traits. Edited September 17, 2021 by Poledra Val.1490 3 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarox.9601 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Poledra Val.1490 said: Anyone else notice today how Willbender has the most trade offs in its traits so far. Meanwhile the new 3 specs we saw revealed today didnt have a single trade off in there traits. yup, and they really surprised me with ele elite....gameplay like enhancement shaman, and I mained that in wow. hm hm decisions decisions. So far my favorites are ele and rev new elite for maining next xpac. Cant wait for test it out. Srry willie, you are not good enough. Edited September 17, 2021 by Ragnarox.9601 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cat.8975 Posted September 17, 2021 Share Posted September 17, 2021 it's gonna be really nice to not deal with all the bandwagon players on my class for once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falseprophet.1502 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) These three elite specializations really exposed how awful Willbender is. For something mobile, the amount of rooted skills and the core design of guardian really does not provide good synchronization with this spec. I think virtue "stances" need to have the distance bumped up to 600 range, skill lock positioning removed, and have Willbender Flames damage be a pulsing AoE around the Willbender. Off hand sword needs a rework, too. The power coefficients need to be addressed. I wish they would have made offhand sword change the #3 skill (like Weaver's dual attack) of whatever main hand weapon you're using. Catalyst got a free 10% stat increase passive for no trade off. Vindicator gets 240 power above 50%. Willbender loses 240 toughness for 240 power. Not a fan, at all. Edited September 18, 2021 by Falseprophet.1502 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drael.2015 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 These three new elite specs revealed today for rev, war and ele make the first three specs look dull and weak in comparison. Willbender just doesn't look anywhere near as fun to play as these new specs. I don't alt very much in this game and these reveals are making me heavily reconsider what I should play as my main. Would be a huge shame because I really love guardian. Look at spellbreaker. Launched to very little fanfare and it never really made it in any game modes. How often do you see people playing that class? WB is going to be dead on arrival without big changes and Anet haven't shown much attention to fixing old specs in the past. I don't have high hopes for much changing. On the plus side, we still have Firebrand and Dragonhunter right guys? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 5 hours ago, Poledra Val.1490 said: Anyone else notice today how Willbender has the most trade offs in its traits so far. Meanwhile the new 3 specs we saw revealed today didnt have a single trade off in there traits. Warrior loses a weapon set, revenant loses a dodge. It's ele that didn't have a trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Drael.2015 said: Look at spellbreaker. Launched to very little fanfare and it never really made it in any game modes. How often do you see people playing that class? WB is going to be dead on arrival without big changes and Anet haven't shown much attention to fixing old specs in the past. I don't have high hopes for much changing. Spellbreaker literally changed wvw, it was the repeated nerfs to the spec and core warrior that made it disappear from all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drael.2015 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, RabbitUp.8294 said: Spellbreaker literally changed wvw, it was the repeated nerfs to the spec and core warrior that made it disappear from all game modes. Actually you are right my memory was hazy. Sad it got stomped into the dirt the way it did. Still disappointed that Anet relegated the usefulness of this class to never get seen anywhere. I'm worried the Devs won't mind that WB is just underwhelming in all regards. They seem to not have cared with spellbreaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 1 hour ago, RabbitUp.8294 said: Warrior loses a weapon set, revenant loses a dodge. It's ele that didn't have a trade off. I believe Weaver has provides enough trade off for the next 3-4 elites : double attunement CD, forced mele combat with average dmg, mostly good only with 1-2 weapons....that's more than enough and it's a relief that catalyst is closer to core ele by comparison....weaver was a complete disaster 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Drael.2015 said: These three new elite specs revealed today for rev, war and ele make the first three specs look dull and weak in comparison. Willbender just doesn't look anywhere near as fun to play as these new specs. I don't alt very much in this game and these reveals are making me heavily reconsider what I should play as my main. Would be a huge shame because I really love guardian. Look at spellbreaker. Launched to very little fanfare and it never really made it in any game modes. How often do you see people playing that class? WB is going to be dead on arrival without big changes and Anet haven't shown much attention to fixing old specs in the past. I don't have high hopes for much changing. On the plus side, we still have Firebrand and Dragonhunter right guys? Specs get nerfed and buffed always...it's 100% certain that Willbender won't be released the way you experienced 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 On 9/16/2021 at 9:24 AM, Kuma.1503 said: A lot of people here have already expressed my grieveances with the class far better than I can. There's some quality feedback here, and I hope it gets taken into acount. My biggest girevance with willbender is that it's too selfish. It doesn't feel like a guardian. I don't know why we felt the need to give Guardian, the defender of the weak, the empowering presence on the battlefield, the mender and smiter alike, yet another selfish elite spec. Didn't we already have dragonhunter for that? This feels like dragonhunter 0.5 with the mobility on f2 split between all three virtues. What's more, it feels like there was more priority on giving willbender "trade-offs" than on creating an actual coherent and fun spec. Trade-offs aren't fun in and of themselves. Trade-offs aren't interesting in and of themselves. There needs to be a real pay-off for the trade-off to feel worth it, and it needs to feel naatural rather than shoe-horned to fill some arbetrary trade-off quota. A good example of a trade-off is deadeye. You lose: - instant cast steal -shadowstep on steal - Must kneel to get max value out of rifle, giving up trade-mark thief mobility -Easy target-swapping ability since you rely on targeting your mark You gain: Great self-boon uptime Unparalleled single target damage vs marked targets Easy access stealth to make up for kneeling mechanic A cool kitten sniper theme that really sells the fantasy of a deadeye These are trade-offs done in an intersting way. Gaining X power in exhange for Y toughness isn't interesting. It's just shufffling numbers around. I don't like saying this when it pretains to game design, because I feel like this word gets thrown around more often than it should, but it really feels like lazy design. These are placeholder traits. I hope they get reworked. Overall: Too selfish Uninteresting trade-offs with no payoff Doesn't feel like a guaridan. This is a warrior/thief elite spec not a guaridan Trade off has always been a BS/idiotic concept and we can all see how that worked out for the game, the population (obviously) focuses on classes/specs with the least access to trade off, and these specs are now dominating every aspect of the game -The pay off is almost never worth the trade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arken.3725 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 2 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said: Warrior loses a weapon set, revenant loses a dodge. It's ele that didn't have a trade off. What? Warrior still has two weapons so it STILL has a weapon swap. Also, Vindicator dodge looks ABSOLUTELY incredible to which there trade-off is very much worth it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drael.2015 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 49 minutes ago, Arken.3725 said: What? Warrior still has two weapons so it STILL has a weapon swap. Also, Vindicator dodge looks ABSOLUTELY incredible to which there trade-off is very much worth it. Exactly this. What part of willbender makes you go "awesome!, I can't wait to try that?"? I hope not just for buffs but that the whole class is just fluid and flowing. That would make it worth taking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cat.8975 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Drael.2015 said: Exactly this. What part of willbender makes you go "awesome!, I can't wait to try that?"? The virtues, personally. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poledra Val.1490 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said: Warrior loses a weapon set, revenant loses a dodge. It's ele that didn't have a trade off. I am specifically talking about "traits" trade offs there isint a single one. Edited September 18, 2021 by Poledra Val.1490 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 (edited) The new elite specs got it right. Their trade-offs are natural. For Rev and Warrior their trade-off mechanics are interesting sidegrades. For Willie, they're just boring downgrades. Catalyst doesn't seem to have one, but tbh core ele is so bad you don't want the elite to be on par with them anyway. Edited September 18, 2021 by Kuma.1503 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monarc.9726 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 8 hours ago, Arken.3725 said: What? Warrior still has two weapons so it STILL has a weapon swap. Also, Vindicator dodge looks ABSOLUTELY incredible to which there trade-off is very much worth it. Right. Plus, Vindicator has a GM trait that reduces endurance bar by 50%, essentially giving the same dodge uptime as before, plus it adds an aoe heal and barrier. Hardly a trade-off. Excited to test Vindicator, and Catalyst as well. For me, the primary issue with WB isn’t the bad traits (they can be fixed), it’s that the core mechanic is boring to play, feels worse than any other specs, including core, and adds nothing new but a few gimmicky movement skills that have terrible animation locks, defeating the purpose of a mobile spec. I mean, what is the mechanic of WB? I’m not even sure what they’re going for. Oh, and the chicken foot of doom from the F1 active that will only ever hit static targets. It doesn’t do any damage anyway, so I guess it doesn’t matter. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drael.2015 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 3 hours ago, cat.8975 said: The virtues, personally. They are just the regular core guard virtues with extra hit procs and no passives. Massive downgrade in my opinion. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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