Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

10 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

You’re misunderstanding the trait.  It says shatters and Distortion is a shatter, also an effect.  Blade Renewal applies the effect and is not a shatter.

 

So yes, your interpretation is wrong to even remotely assume that a non-shatter utility should gain the effect of a trait that modifies shatters.

Blurred inscriptions + Master of Fragmentation provides reflect on signets, why shouldn't BR provide it as well?

[mortrialus.3062]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Blurred inscriptions + Master of Fragmentation provides reflect on signets, why shouldn't BR provide it as well?

Arenanet:  Removed a bug allowed Blurred Inscriptions to activate the projectile reflection from Master of Fragmentation.

 

Real reason is that Master of Fragmentation with Virtoso increases the block duration on Bladeturn Requiem.  There's no projectile reflection component on the trait if you're Virtuoso at all.  So Blurred Inscriptions on Virtuoso doesn't gain reflection on the signet distortions either. Another case of Virtuoso being deliberately worse than core with no gain.

Edited August 23, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

52 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Arenanet:  Removed a bug allowed Blurred Inscriptions to activate the projectile reflection from Master of Fragmentation.

 

Real reason is that Master of Fragmentation with Virtoso increases the block duration on Bladeturn Requiem.  There's no projectile reflection component on the trait if you're Virtuoso at all.  So Blurred Inscriptions on Virtuoso doesn't gain reflection on the signet distortions either. Another case of Virtuoso being deliberately worse than core with no gain.

You misunderstood me.

I was talking about the blade renewal's distortion, blurred inscriptions was an example how master of fragmentation doesn't affect only shatters.

Virt trait still describes the reflect aspect on distortion.

[Curunen.8729]

I don't know what else to add that everyone else hasn't said in some form.

 

So will just reinforce a few things:

 

Number 1 is to address all core traits (and some skills) that don't work properly with virtuoso. It's difficult to judge how well it performs otherwise.

 

Second, regarding target facing etc - on one hand there's little difference between this and eg Magic Bullet or Confusing Images, where naturally you may momentarily pause moving in order for the character to snap to face the target to cast and not be interrupted. On the other hand all other mesmer specs only have to deal with this on a few abilities (such as those mentioned above) - whereas it does become a bit awkward when virtuoso has this requirement on so many abilities.

 

One consequence of this is being pressured in melee range especially given the lack of mobility, and the virtuoso lacking in sufficient gap creation to cast F skills - where things like Staff 2, GS5 or Focus 4 come in handy, but apart from that, blink (waste of cooldown) or some kind of Sword 3 juke into F skill cast, it can be very awkward in melee range to ensure the character is facing the target at a minimum distance that the F skills will cast and hit, and not be interrupted.

 

So either virtuoso could benefit from more gap creation to maintain range (maybe on dagger?), or the target facing requirment of the F skills could do with review.

 

A third point, related to the above is crowd control. As various skills have piercing, but virtuoso doesn't have access to any kind of line control outside of focus 4 from core. It could be beneficial if there were one or two ways to pull targets into a line so that piercing attacks could benefit from damaging all in a line.

 

For example F3 could have similar function as Revenant's Temporal Rift on offhand axe - eg it pulls up to 5 enemies towards the line it is cast on, maybe with increasing pull radius for each stocked blade. This would allow combo setup of lining up with F3 and then damaging with F1/2 or elite.

On this maybe Dagger should have a control skill on 2 to line up/group targets to benefit from dagger 3 and F skills.

Or maybe the elite could pulse a line pull every second for the duration.

 

Whichever way, I believe one or two more sources of cc - particularly say a line pull on F3 - would support the various piercing and projectile attacks benefiting the spec.

 

Those are the three general areas I think need to be looked at. Within that, many things are subjective. I'll add some preferences below:

Dagger 3 should destroy projectiles.

F4 visual needs to be clearer - the lingering blade attack (while I get this is intended more to proc traits rather than do any kind of damage) makes it difficult to tell when the block expires. Also having both this and Blade Renewal channeled I don't think works well with mesmer given you cant take massive punishment or resustain easily (unless of course illusionary inspiration is fixed and we get some kind of bunker...), even though I appreciate the positives of limiting being able to perform multiple actions while invuln etc.

Psychic Force cooldown is too high for its current function. Either it should be improved in some way or the cooldown reduced.

F2 - while the cast animation looks really cool, it can be annoying when terrain/environment obstructs the daggers. Not an issue in open field of course, but can be an issue when fighting in more closed structures.

 

 

Edit: I totally forgot about the whole projectile thing. This of course is another important area to look into - whether it is a case of changing virtuoso F skills to not be projectiles, or whether it is to do with reviewing how reflect works. I would prefer the former, as I like the concept of reflect as it is.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Curunen.8729

[Levetty.1279]

I had a more detailed post written out and then lost it so this might not cover everything and bare with me and its mostly going to be PvE focused as I didn't play much PvP with it.

 

First thing is that the spec feels unfinished.

1.  As pointed out by others a lot of traits and skills are either buggy (stop performing at 3 blades) or just don't work now that clones have gone and nothing has changed about them.  Jagged Mind is basically how sharpened edges should work on Virtuoso which makes me think these traits and skills not working is intentional and not an oversight.
2. There is no class mechanic now. You've removed clones and replaced them with what exactly?

I've said before how straightforward the class is, every new skill is just aoe damage. Its nice to finally have some but is it really worth everything we give up just to have a taste of what other classes are doing better? The only boon it can reliable generate for itself is small amounts of fury, the only synergy between it and the core traits is bleeding edge and Bloodsong and in PvE the damage isn't really that much higher then other Mesmer specs to make up for this and is probably going to be shaved down from this beta on top of that. Its a ranged focused spec with no way to keep people at range or help itself keep away. It can't even cast any of its skills while running away, it can't even cast its heal while running away.

 

What exactly is the role of Virtuoso?

1. Ranged aoe damage with no illusions sounds like the perfect chance to finally give Mesmer a role in WvW zergs, it is the one place were illusions are nothing but a hindrance but if that was the plan why are phantasms still here which are a bigger hindrance to this and why is every single new skill a projectile making them worse then useless in WvW groups as they will just get reflected back in our face. This is before we get into the complete lack of group utility it has.
2. In PvE living world/story content its inferior to Chrono and Mirage who can already output damage while having better access to boons, more synergy with core trait lines and more survivability. I've never actually felt this squishy before on Mesmer.
3. The spec will never be good in PvP barring major changes. You've removed everything good about Mesmer and replaced it with damage but the problem is for the damage to be good enough to make that work Virtuoso would just end up running around one shotting people from 1200 range. That is never going to be something that people will accept.

With the pretty long cast times on everything and having to face people to cast skills it just feels really clunky to play.

 

5 blade shatters don't feel any stronger then 3 clone shatters. F1 is about the same, F3 has worse breakbar damage and F4 is entirely different anyway. Considering that we have both given up having a class mechanic and have to build up more resources to shatter this really shouldn't be the case. 

 

Speaking of shatters they are too similar to core but worse because they are now a projectile and have pierce instead of aoe and way too long cast times.  At least change the cooldowns, give F2 different conditions, give them extra effects at 5 blades. Ideally we would get some interesting new mechanic to replace our clones that could do interesting things blades and shatters but that is unlikely so do something with them.

I sort of like Bladeturn Requiem even if it is a straight downgrade because its the only one that is different. That said its supposed to have 3 seconds of block but it feels more like half a second. Don't think I ever actually used it that didn't result in me dying straight way because it didn't block anything. Even with a proper block duration, considering the idea seems to be trading defense of the distortion shatter for some extra damage it really needs its damage upped because a full 5 blade shatter was doing pitifully small numbers.

 

Psychic Force is a decent skill with a too long cooldown. If this was on core I would take it on a lot of builds but on Virtuoso all it really manged to do was knock people out of my AoEs and scatter them out. Slight ltp issue but it is the only new stunbreak and it doesn't synergise that great. 

 

Not really sure the idea of putting condition traits on a power focused espec although Bloodsong is the only good blade generation we have and the only trait that has any kind of synergy so I don't really want to argue for their removal. If you want condition builds on the spec I would say make Jagged Mind and Sharpened edges both work on blades and stack and replace the confusion on F2 with a couple of different conditions. Have Sharpening Sorrow change how it gives fury too because 5 seconds of fury on a 25 second cooldown isn't anything to write home about.

 

Infinite Forge relies on you not generating blades for the first 9 seconds of the match while it builds up for you making the trait pointless. Rework it or remove the cap. Related to that if you do get the core traits to consider blades as clones then have us continue to generate blades past the 5 limit like how creating a new clone at 3 replaces one of the old ones.

 

Dagger and the rest of the aoe skills are nice to finally have in PvE, I like how dagger feels but I'd up the auto attack damage some. Maybe speed up 3 as well.

 

That said the elite Thousand Cuts isn't that great. The targeting mechanic followed by the cast time makes it really clunky and its really narrow. Even in PvE mobs would probably just casually walk out of it. That is if you even managed to get it off before they beat you to death during the long cast time.

 

Ultimately clones were never the problem with Mesmer, phantasms were and that was 90% fixed with the phantasm rework. Not to say I would be against a illusionless elite spec but this is the worst of both worlds. You've removed the advantages of clones, left us with phantasms and given us nothing in return.

[aymnad.9023]

Pvp impression: unranked

I liked the feeling of the virtuoso. Dagger was ok, it had average damage but Gs felt way better for my playstyle because it offered a higher ranged and more burst. Power builds stacked vuln super fast had some nice and frequent damage while keeping had some decent defenses. I tried a hybrid but it did not seem to work. I have seen some duelist builds (maybe with chaos because of all the boons) which seemed to work better for 1V1 but with the ones I tried were not the best option.

 

PvE impression: tested only on golem

Here dagger felt strong. It had a small difference with sword but because the skills are so fast I did not feel like I was missing much. Power gave me some decent results. I have seen the benchmarks but this was on a large target, I think for smaller targets chrono could still to be the preferred choice (I am not a chrono player so I am just guessing because it offers a lot of utility). I tried a viper set but I guessed most of my damage was power so I went destroyer and then back to berserker. I cannot tell what the issue was with my condi attempts. Maybe it is just me, maybe it is the cd on the F2, the lack of variety or strong (to potentially op) conditions sources.

 

 

Traits / utilities:

No matter which grandmaster I picked, I was loaded with swords.

At first I thought the Rain of sword damage looked low but the vuln stacking and the aoe end up making it a strong utility. 

Blade renewal + Sword of decimation are good but situational. Not much to add.

F1 felt nice. It did hit hard and was frequent.

F2 : (I barely remember it sorry 😞, I think it was just ok)

F3 : was hit and miss. It has some decent damage but was mostly used in close combat. Maybe add a small reward for a successful long range interrupt? 

 

additional suggestion:

I think the F4 with Master of fragmentation would be stronger with a reflect during the block (and not the full duration) rather than increasing the duration.

For the elite Thousands cuts I like the idea to control an area but it is super thin. So thin that I managed to miss some downed targets. This leads to the following question. Is it for damage or area control? If this is for damage I would make it slightly larger (also it took me a while to realize how huge the range was). If this is for area control I would take inspiration from mobas which have damaging lines that slow (probius from hots / dark seer from dota 2) make the cast way shorter and add some soft cc like cripple.

The knockback is nice. But it is loaded with effects. As it stands it does too much and has a cd too high. I would remove the boons, lower it to 35 and see if this is too strong.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[aymnad.9023]

duplicate

Edited August 23, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Zoser.7245]

My ideas to improve the Virtuoso and make him a serious threat to his enemies are these:

 

Synergy with core mesmer:

Ok as I commented previously my best solution is to remove one blade, the one over the Virtuoso’s head and blades and the Virtuoso be illusions. So keep Illusionary Persona with the Virtuoso. Then all will work smoothly. And rework the animations to have 2 blades in each side of the mesmer and when it cast F1 and F2 he creates the 5 one from himself and throw them as he is an Illusionary Persona and blades will be illusions.

The problem is that there are traits related to phantasms, other to clones and other to illusions… So if blades aren’t illusions, some key traits by definition will not work with blades… If blades aren’t clones even more traits will not work. And the worst is that clones are converted into blades but blades are not clones, in fact, traits that generate blades directly are not related to clones, lol. It’s all a mess.

Anyways, if you are so obsessed with eliminating the illusory person from the Virtuoso and blades are not illusions. At least find a way to make core traits work with blades, balance them and don’t waste Virtuoso’s traits to hide the mess you are created.

 

BladeSongs:

Bladesong Harmony (F1):

Cast time: ½ second. (reduced)

 

Bladesong Dissonance (F3):

With 5 stacks of blades and thinking in them as 5 levels of intensity, for example, we could make it more fun and also more useful in certain situations. As we can control how much CC apply and imagine… Stacks from 1 to 3 make your foe float, the more blades stacked the higher and longer time floats your foe or foes. Stacks from 4 to 5 pull him while floating, 4 stacks - x distance and 5 stacks – x a larger one. Even the 4^th stack could be a pull and the 5^th stack a knockdowm.

It would be something new in the game and a lot of fun to play with.

 

Healing, utilities and elite:

I’m going try to give more “utility” to the Virtuoso without sacrifice AoE and damage. Something that some brains, for some reason... wasn’t able to do previously.

 

Twin Blade Restoration:

To fix this skill without change its mechanic they need to rework its internal code to grants the healing even if you can't throw your blades. The healing must be the first action and then try to throw the blades if possible. Because, obviously, you should not be able to throw blades to the sides or your backs. You need have your target in your line of sight, have it at your front and in range.

Be careful with this skill, deactive the autotarget, and de-target before heal yourself if needed in competitive modes (WvW and PvP). As it could oftently provoke undesired situations. Imagine that your team need or want run in stealth… but under the AoE pressure or something else you decide to heal yourself throwing your marvellous blades to an enemy revealing all your team/squad position due to your healing skill… Enemies will obviously chase you and your allies and if they kill all you, then all your team/squad, group, etc, will want to kill you for real.

 

Sword of Decimation: (reworked)

 

Create blades that tether your foes immobilizing and transferring them your conditions while you become (transformation) a high energized blade that flies fast against your foes releasing its energy when you hit them while you recover your normal state.

 

Damage: XXXX

Immovilize: 2 seconds (modified)

Condition transferred: 2 (added)

Number of targets: 5

Radius: 240

Range: 1200

 

(It's ground target like the original skill. Or, at least, it must not require a target to cast it. This gives the Virtuoso a way to engage and disengage, get in and out, and of course mobility. Yes, he flies from his location to his target. The damage can be adjusted to balance it but it lost 2 seconds of immobilization and the extra 100% damage modifier in exchange of save your life often, so it worth it, as dps I’m sure the Virtuoso will still enough dps to even gift it for free... It will still gift a lot of love. Obviously this rework will require modify the animation or a new one, but it will worth a lot for the Virtuoso.)

 

Thousand Cuts: (reworked)

 

Open a portal that devastates targets in a line in front of you with a flurry of blades. Passing through your portal to the blades side will vanish you in synchronization with your blades, gaining stealth and superspeed for the remaining time of your portal. If you leave the are of effect of your skill you will be revealed.

Cast time: ¾ second (reduced)

Damage (6x): XXXX

Number of Targets: 5

Duration: 3 seconds

Interval: ½ seconds

Stealth: 3 seconds (added)

Superspeed: 3 seconds (added)

Pierces

Blade

Range: 1200

 

(This skill is beautiful visually and now also let you to pass through its portal and integrate you with your blades and utilizing them to hide you from foes.)

 

Traits:

Sadly, I’m going to assume that they are not going to give the Virtuoso the Illusionary Persona status. So I cannot delete the Sharper Images clone, alias Jagged Mind.

 

Sharpening Sorrow: (master trait)

Removed from the game.

 

Deadly Blades: (reworked)

Blades inflict vulnerability on critical hits.

Fury increase your expertise. (added from Sharpening Sorrow with a lower value)

Vulnerability: 5 seconds

Expertise granted by fury: +99 (added)

 

Psionic Recovery: (New master trait)

Psionic skills have a 20% reduction and grants superspeed.

Superspeed: 3 seconds.

 

(Some Psionic skills have an insane cooldown, this address that problem and also let you reposition yourself fast when you cast them).

 

Infinite Forge: (Grandmaster)

Removed from the game.

 

Blade Reinforcement: (New Grandmaster)

Gain random boons per interval while you have superspeed.

Creates and throw a Transfusion Blade when you apply boons.

 

(Note: this special blade is thrown without stack it if you have a target in combat. If you don’t have a target is stacked maintaining its properties, so it will steal life when released together with the normal ones when you cast a Bladesong.)

 

Protection: 3 seconds

Fury: 5 seconds

Swifness: 3 seconds

Vigor: 3 seconds

Might (3x): 5 seconds

Quickness: 3 seconds

Pierce

Number of targets: 5

Interval: ¾ second

Range: 1200

Combat Only (optional)

 

Transfusion Blade:

A blade that steals life from foes.

 

PvE

   Life Siphon Damage: 298 (0.1)?

   Life Siphon Healing: 202 (0.1)?

WvW / PvP

   Life Siphon Damage: 58 (0.003)?

   Life Siphon Healing: 58 (0.003)?

(Blade Reinforcement can be balance in two ways. You can adjust the quantity of boons you need to apply for create a Transfusion Blade and also you can adjust the interval that the skills use tu give you boons, although with 3 seconds of superspeed as base, ¾ second is in line with other grandmaster traits creating boons so I believe the interval it’s ok and balanced.

 

That been said. This blades deserve a bit of work, they should have a different colour, darker purple maybe, like the recall in the game, or whatever that have a good contrast and combine nicely. So you can differenciate them visually when stacked, it will be cool watch both type of blades floating together. As this Transfusion Blade steal life, the formula of the F1 and F2 Bladesong skills should be changed to admit these blades with its own effects in a mix with the normal ones when they are thrown against foes

 

As you can imagine, being created in some way profitig the energy received from boons (a bit of roleplay 😉), it can be stacked without a target although normally will be thrown without be stacked when you are in combat and attacking and that gives you more options for prepare attacks, you can cancel/remove your target in combat strategically, use your boons skills to stacks them and then burst your foe. And have some sustain for certain game modes to not be a free kill/bag.)

 

Taking advantage of the fact that I hope you read this, I remind you few things if you let it to me.

 

Mirage:

The poor "one dodge man", the Mirage, is still there crippled, without a deserved good balance and of whom you spoke of his lack of sustain but did nothing to give him that necessary sustain. Although looking at the chronomancer and the final result after its rework ... I am very afraid of how the Mirage could end if finally you rework him.

 

Mesmer:

Torch:

Do us the favor of reducing the cooldown of the mesmer's Torch skills to 25 second cooldown. Is the time. Every time I look at it and compare our torch to other similarly performing weapons from other professions and then compare their cooldowns, I get depressed.

 

Focus:

The Phantasmal Warden's effectiveness drops dramatically the more enemies it has around it. It would be great if his axes had at least one bounce and that the probability of attacking your target while still hitting the others be a little higher than attacking the rest, so that your target takes more damage. If he has at least one rebound, the damage would be better distributed and also prioritizing your objective over those around him would have a much lower impact and it is evident that the more rebounds the better damage on the area. Many times, if you have selected a particular target, it is because it has less health or it is easier to eliminate and it is a priority.

 

Pistol:

Ohhh, one last thing, i almost forgot it... make the Illusionary Duelist's pistol skill PIERCE!!! 🙏😁

 

 

That is all. I hope that, at least, these ideas can help the developers to improve the Virtuoso and also the mesmer globally. Thank you for reading.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Zoser.7245
Added Bladesong Harmony and a reduced cast time in the elite.

[Oscuura.7286]

Loved playing as the Virtuoso, just one thing bothered me: the animations of some of the skills. They were very flashy and all over the place. I wish the animations were more sharp, elegant, minimalistic. Especially the following skills bothered me:

Flying Cutter

Unstable Bladestorm

Sword of Decimation

[Monkey See.1498]

Virtuoso is revolutionary in that for the first time in this entire game's history we have a mesmer spec that is exactly where it needs to be in PvP;  Not over powered.  Not Under powered.  What you put into it skill wise is what you get out of it skill wise.  Hopefully, the devs taking feedback look at Virtuoso and use it as a basis on how to change Mirage, Chronomancer, and Core instead of trying to change Virtuoso.  Because right out the gate Virtuoso is exactly what all classes should be and is finally a mesmer build that is merely on equal footing to what other classes can do. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Monkey See.1498

[Xaylin.1860]

23 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

For example F3 could have similar function as Revenant's Temporal Rift on offhand axe - eg it pulls up to 5 enemies towards the line it is cast on, maybe with increasing pull radius for each stocked blade. This would allow combo setup of lining up with F3 and then damaging with F1/2 or elite.

 

[...]

 

Dagger 3 should destroy projectiles.

I really like your general idea for F3. And even if it is not added there, it could be used for a Psionic instead.

 

For Dagger #3, I'd rather have it grant Swiftness to allies or something like this. I get your idea but imho MH Dagger should have less defense than Sword MH or Scepter so there are clearer trade-offs between those weapons.

[Crystal Black.8190]

Overall feels like the most refined elite spec.

Daggers range should be in the mid range band between 600-900. Mesmer has two great long range weapons. While lacking a power mid range weapon besides scepter. 

 

Psychic Force utility feels overloaded and tries to do two different things. It is a stunbreak and wants to be used reactionary as a defensive skill. It also is a cc and hands out offensive buffs to be used aggressively. I would remove the stunbreak and hand it to Blade Renewal.

 

Blade Renewal feels clunky. It is a 3 seconds distortion on a long cooldown. You rarely ever need to distort for that long. I would like to see its cd be reduced alongside its distort duration and its blade gain reduced to 3. Should in my opinion be the stunbreak of the utility kit.

 

Sword of Decimations animation looks like at some point it was a cc/knockdown or high damage skill. This huge blade drops down on the target and all that happens is some immob and a small amount of damage? It should be a knockdown in itself and if the target is already controlled it applies no cc but instead gains a 500% damage buff. It would be a cc but against already cc’d targets it becomes a nuke.

 

Thousand Cuts is a fire and forget elite. To spice things up a bit it should get the bounce from walls effect like the dagger 2 skill. Also consider making it a channeled skill with stability that fires in front of the meser like a gatling gun. Enhance rotation speed during the channel and decrease forward movement.

 

Infinite Forge should grant the blades out of combat too. You keep the blades you gained during combat and carry them into the next fight. It should allow you to always restock to 3 blades for the next fight even if you didn't draw it out for 9sec just to restock with infinite forge.

[AXLIB.8425]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:58 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

13 pages of feedback, some contraditory.
I just wish they listen to the right people this time, instead of doing like they did with mirage and proceeded to destroy both mirage and core.

lets face it, they probably will just ignore all the super long and actual constructive feedback and only look at the short one that says "i love the visuals, this is so much fun to play with all the new visuals" and think this spec is in a great place and in fact the damage is too high then precede to nerf it.

otherwise we would not end up with the current mirage and chrono, and core.

Edited August 24, 2021 by AXLIB.8425

[Kyban.4031]

It is a very projectile heavy spec making it near useless in zerg settings and very easy to shut down in PvP in general.  Other classes also have this issue but usually not to this degree.  I think some way to mitigate this weakness would help those types of builds feeling completely useless in some situations.  Potentially adding some way to ignore or mitigate projectile destruction/reflect would go a long way.  It could be piercing skills only, maybe have them Aoe shatter on hitting a reflect/projectile destruction if the tech is there.

The spec feels a little confused being long range skills with benefits for playing close range.  I think it could use an offhand dagger as well that plays into the class’s theme with a gap closer and a way to generate blades.  Something that plays off of stocked blades would also be neat.

The Elite feels kind of weak, it’s a fire and forget that is very easy to avoid.  I think it would feel stronger as a channeled skill originating from the player, that could be aimed during the channel as a kind of “kamehameha” (does the tech allow this?).  Rooting it would probably feel too clunky but halving the movement speed could work.

Changing the distort to a block on the F4 feels like it takes it a little too far from the base class in terms of consistency.

The heal is very unreliable, there’s just too much that could shut it down for a heal skill.  It’s particularly awful that it will go on cd if you try to cast it on a target behind you if you’re retreating or if your target moves through your hit box in melee.
 

[Zoser.7245]

11 hours ago, Kyban.4031 said:

It is a very projectile heavy spec making it near useless in zerg settings and very easy to shut down in PvP in general.  Other classes also have this issue but usually not to this degree.  I think some way to mitigate this weakness would help those types of builds feeling completely useless in some situations.  Potentially adding some way to ignore or mitigate projectile destruction/reflect would go a long way.  It could be piercing skills only, maybe have them Aoe shatter on hitting a reflect/projectile destruction if the tech is there.

The spec feels a little confused being long range skills with benefits for playing close range.  I think it could use an offhand dagger as well that plays into the class’s theme with a gap closer and a way to generate blades.  Something that plays off of stocked blades would also be neat.

The Elite feels kind of weak, it’s a fire and forget that is very easy to avoid.  I think it would feel stronger as a channeled skill originating from the player, that could be aimed during the channel as a kind of “kamehameha” (does the tech allow this?).  Rooting it would probably feel too clunky but halving the movement speed could work.

Changing the distort to a block on the F4 feels like it takes it a little too far from the base class in terms of consistency.

The heal is very unreliable, there’s just too much that could shut it down for a heal skill.  It’s particularly awful that it will go on cd if you try to cast it on a target behind you if you’re retreating or if your target moves through your hit box in melee.
 

I said it from the beginning, even before test it as it was so obvious after watching the Virtuoso's skills initially and later its traits. It seems designed for easy PvE events and social media to show its cute outfits and pretty animations. The Virtuoso can't even solo a decent/tough hero point from Maguuma's heart.  Maybe, by building it as a super tank and taking 45 minutes or more to do so, you can be successful or maybe not, while other professions do it soloing in 5 minutes., but I didn't test it in that garbage way. Also being so selfish, i can't watch it even in raids as i doubt its dps will be miles above others to go there without sharing anything interesting  for the raid. Only being a dps bot.

 

For PvP and WvW. It looks like designed to not give headaches to his foes and be a free kill/free bag.  So is understandable to watch players from other profession come here to tell the world how wonderful and revolutionary the Virtuoso is.  Obviously because it's their perfect enemy.  The Virtuoso is like a snail you find out there, you can stomp on it even unintentionally or willingly, or simply ignore it because it cannot do anything to you, much less follow you with its impressive null mobility.

 

After have fun with the Harbinger, i gave the Virtuoso an oportunity even knowing that it could be impossible for me to solo the content where i usually test my builds and how good a profession is for me.  It took me only around 3 minutes to discard it and change my vision of how to test the Virtuoso.  So i changed to other professions, several ones, and i went to roam and  hunt Virtuosos in PvP and WvW with them. It was a complete success, all my suspicions were confirmed. It was like child's play to kill the Virtuosos, play cat and mouse with them, trolling them. Like I said, they were free kills and free bags and not so virtuous after all. It is clear that the name of Virtuoso was given to him for roleplaying and playing in a casual plan chatting with other players rather than for something serious or challenging. At least in that way, the Virtuoso was cool and funny... as a foe, of course.  😅🤣

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[AvaLilly.6375]

I really liked the virtuoso overall. Only some minor feedback…

 

Remove cast time on F1-4 abilities. Losing clones already is enough of a disadvantage and shift for Mesmer. Feels like two steps back. 
 

Auspicious Anguish did not seem to trigger with Blade Renewal. 
 

Remove the ground targeting from Thousand Cuts. Make it the same as Holosmith Elite. 
 

Having a backwards movement or teleport ability like Phase Retreat after you throw your dagger would be useful. Something would be super cool if you literally swapped positions around the target. If I’m 1000 in front. I now become 1000 behind. If I’m 240 in front. I now become 240 behind. 
 

For core skills that now only create a blade, have them fire a blade that does some minor damage on creation. 

[Levetty.1279]

Saw a post in an other thread and making the Shatter skills ground targets would be a very good change, help make them feel actually different.

[jerc.9028]

I really like the new specialization, the animations look all great,  though I think Anet have lost a great opportunity on implementing dual daggers on the Virtuoso, waiting a bunch of years to get 3 new skills... idk, it doesn't make sense. Another problem I find is that the utilities are not so useful, I find myself using all of the old utilities and that's very bad, finding myself stuck with so many old skills its a a big downside. I definitely trust you can do a lot better.

[AXLIB.8425]

9 hours ago, Kyban.4031 said:

It is a very projectile heavy spec making it near useless in zerg settings and very easy to shut down in PvP in general.  Other classes also have this issue but usually not to this degree.  I think some way to mitigate this weakness would help those types of builds feeling completely useless in some situations.  Potentially adding some way to ignore or mitigate projectile destruction/reflect would go a long way.  It could be piercing skills only, maybe have them Aoe shatter on hitting a reflect/projectile destruction if the tech is there.

The spec feels a little confused being long range skills with benefits for playing close range.  I think it could use an offhand dagger as well that plays into the class’s theme with a gap closer and a way to generate blades.  Something that plays off of stocked blades would also be neat.

actually yeah, i think it would be great that if reflect does not reflect piercing projectile, but instead it just get rid of the piercing tag on those projectile, so a piercing projectile would only hit the first target it hits when in contact with reflect

[CJH.2879]

I just released a beta preview video, (was trying out the Elite Spec Classes on Hero Points during the Beta), so if Anet wanted to take a direct look at the elite specs in action to see where some of the fundamental flaws are during the actual combat, please feel free to do so >>

 

Also... feel free to >> LoL, I know I did a couple of times >> (specifically at my epic fails while trying them out!) << Cheers &... I hope it helps!

 

 

[Kolzi.5928]

The "blade" property on skills feels a bit underused, there is one minor trait which is fine although not super exciting, and a major trait which adds bleed to blades which is just... pretty strange, considering that all the weaponskill blades are on dagger and greatsword, which are both power weapons. I'm imagining you flag a couple more skills as blade (maybe just on the gs, maybe on sword as well) and then add a major trait that allows you to really build towards those weapons in a power setup.

 

Not too sure if I like the idea of condi virtuoso. I mean thematically it works fine, all those blades causing bleeds or what have you. Maybe f2 should be a bleed then and you can build toward bleeds specifically? Would give some synergy with the pistol trait. Otherwise, we already do have mirage for condi builds - but offering a clone-less condi build might be something that appeals to people I suppose, much how I like that soulbeast has both power and condi builds that work well.

 

I don't mind the big cast times on the bladesongs, but I still think they could maybe be differentiated a little more in effect compared to shatters. Bladesong sorrow seems the most ripe for change to me.

 

How set are we on this specialization name, by the way? I know chances are that you aren't changing at this point, but I feel like these spec names are getting more and more abstract, moving away from both being descriptive or selling us on the fantasy of the spec. I didn't like dragonhunter at first but it definitely grew on me, and I came to see how it fit the spec, but I just don't see that happening for me with this name. If you tell someone about the base class and then give them the name of the specialization, I feel like they should be able to have a decent shot at guessing the theme of the elite spec. "Weaver" if you understand elementalist pretty clearly has an emphasis on weaving elements together. You would expect a reaper to use a giant scythe (reaper shroud has this). Firebrand, despite being one of the weaker names IMO, denotes an emphasis on fire and potentially of a certain level of zealotry or revolutionary tendencies. A chronomancer very clearly has time manipulation as a key part of her arsenal, and a mirage will clearly deal with illusions and misdirection in some way. Virtuoso, by comparison, is a term to refer to someone who is just good at *something*, most commonly music. While you can certainly be a virtuoso with blades, it's hardly the first place anyone would think to take the word. It's weird, because you already have a great name for it within the mechanics of the spec: Bladesong. If someone knew about how mesmers worked and you said they were getting "Bladesong" or something similar, they would immediately jump to the use of illusionary blades in some form. I am sure there must be other names that are a bit more high-level which still can actually tell you a little about the spec rather than virtuoso.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

29 minutes ago, Kolzi.5928 said:

Maybe f2 should be a bleed then and you can build toward bleeds specifically? Would give some synergy with the pistol trait. Otherwise, we already do have mirage for condi builds - but offering a clone-less condi build might be something that appeals to people I suppose, much how I like that soulbeast has both power and condi builds that work well.

While I wanted the Fs to do different stuff I don't like the idea of putting all eggs in one basket. One condition focused only is bad and easily countered.
 

[Curunen.8729]

On 8/24/2021 at 3:07 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

I really like your general idea for F3. And even if it is not added there, it could be used for a Psionic instead.

 

For Dagger #3, I'd rather have it grant Swiftness to allies or something like this. I get your idea but imho MH Dagger should have less defense than Sword MH or Scepter so there are clearer trade-offs between those weapons.

Thanks, yeah I can see that Dagger in principle should function as GS1-3 with the flexibility of being paired with a choice of offhand, and so should be all offensive in contrast to sword or even scepter which has additional utility.

 

The issue I have is again 2 and especially 3 are pretty much melee range skills - but unlike core mesmer, which while GS having one "melee" skill in skills 1-3 (GS2) that benefits shatter combos in point blank range, none of virtuoso's abilities provide much incentive to want to come into close range (things like F4 could be seen as proccing blade traits when pressured in melee, only to want to make a gap again).

 

So here, dagger 2 and 3 don't make much sense with the rest of the kit, hence the thought of giving 3 some utility while at range - though I appreciate an offensive utility would be preferable to defensive such as destroying projectiles.

 

Either that or dagger 3 could have some kind of control (eg cripple), or maybe even should be a ground targeted cast similar to GS3, useable at range (though it would still be easy for opponents to avoid). Visually it's a nice skill but in practice it's almost ignorable outside of cleave on downed enemies, or groups in a choke point.

 

2 is equally confusing, especially with the whole camera control to make the most out of the bounce. But again it doesn't synergise well with the rest of the spec.

[Allarius.5670]

6 minutes ago, Curunen.8729 said:

2 is equally confusing, especially with the whole camera control to make the most out of the bounce. But again it doesn't synergise well with the rest of the spec.

 

If they are going to balance Bladecall around a double melee hit, they should add a sequence skill that allows the user to call the blades back prematurely. Having to detarget (and not accidentally select another player, minion, pet, or what have you) and reposition the camera feels incredibly cumbersome in the heat of melee and makes the whole effort not worth it, and thus not used as intended. 

[OriOri.8724]

On 8/24/2021 at 12:05 PM, AXLIB.8425 said:

lets face it, they probably will just ignore all the super long and actual constructive feedback and only look at the short one that says "i love the visuals, this is so much fun to play with all the new visuals" and think this spec is in a great place and in fact the damage is too high then precede to nerf it.

That's not entirely fair. They regularly listen to the feedback from people who don't play mesmer and complain about the wrong things, ending up with mesmer skills and mechanics getting nerfed to the ground without any underlying issues that created the broken builds having been addressed