Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Anthony.8056]

I like the Virtuoso spec but it needs work. I agree with others that the traits are underwhelming especially for a Mesmer spec. They don't synergize with the other traits well. I was looking for something interesting in the trait lines to make the class appealing but it seem to fall flat in that department. I like the visuals for it and I know numbers are going to be tweaked before it releases. Overall, it was fun to play but needs work in the trait department. Also, I wish it was called something to reflect the overall image of this specialization.

[Raven.8156]

I enjoy playing the Virtuoso, as someone who avoids playing Mesmer. 
 

I don’t like any of the offhand options with the  dagger, however. Why not break the rules and give this dagger themed spec dual daggers? It would really tie this together. 
 

almost have something great here.
offhand dagger can use  an evade or something to provide a little more survivability, and a second phantasm option.
 

 
 

[Yashizuko.9165]

On 8/20/2021 at 9:29 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So is this PvE or PvP....3 posts total how interesting....

Sooo only people with 300 posts can give feedback? please explain.... I'm playing since 2012.... , never thought ppl need XX AP or something else to give feedback... that's nonsense

[Salt Mode.3780]

18 minutes ago, Yashizuko.9165 said:

Sooo only people with 300 posts can give feedback? please explain.... I'm playing since 2012.... , never thought ppl need XX AP or something else to give feedback... that's nonsense

Sorry I also said PvP or PvE which you failed to comment. Fact that you played since 2012 and your post 

 

"Gameplay / traits: in general is really fun to play ( reason why i have "merged" all the sections in one) , glass cannon with some options to be defensive in traits, and probably a condition specc available too? ( havent' tried that tho )

 

No complaints for me really on the class." yet there are fundamental problems with the class itself like repeating traits and counterintuitive gameplay really makes me question your lack of content.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yashizuko.9165]

11 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry I also said PvP or PvE which you failed to comment. Fact that you played since 2012 and your post 

 

"Gameplay / traits: in general is really fun to play ( reason why i have "merged" all the sections in one) , glass cannon with some options to be defensive in traits, and probably a condition specc available too? ( havent' tried that tho )

 

No complaints for me really on the class." yet there are fundamental problems with the class itself like repeating traits and counterintuitive gameplay really makes me question your lack of content.

 

Every person experiences the game in different ways... i played pvp (expecially wvw) and pve, how i experienced the virtuoso is that if "feels" really nice to play, where the gameplay and animations of the specc are pretty defined, and has satisfying spells / combos you can do ( blade recharge + F1 for example, or the slow blade plus the "aoe blade rain" spell  ), im sure Anet will change traits and numbers to balance, reflecting the general feedback of the topic,

 

But what im experiencing with virtuoso is a class that makes sense gameplay wise ( like the harbringer ), and NOT like the willbender for example, where in the willbender case i tried to enhance the specc by choosing specific traits but also with that felt lacking something "special" or "new" as multiple ppl are saying on that topic , OFC there are numbers to be tweaked but as i see in a broader sense of the specialization, feels nice to have new "toys" and "tools" to play with.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Yashizuko.9165

[Salt Mode.3780]

36 minutes ago, Yashizuko.9165 said:

 

Every person experiences the game in different ways... i played pvp (expecially wvw) and pve, how i experienced the virtuoso is that if "feels" really nice to play, where the gameplay and animations of the specc are pretty defined, and has satisfying spells / combos you can do ( blade recharge + F1 for example, or the slow blade plus the "aoe blade rain" spell  ), im sure Anet will change traits and numbers to balance, reflecting the general feedback of the topic,

 

But what im experiencing with virtuoso is a class that makes sense gameplay wise ( like the harbringer ), and NOT like the willbender for example, where in the willbender case i tried to enhance the specc by choosing specific traits but also with that felt lacking something "special" or "new" as multiple ppl are saying on that topic , OFC there are numbers to be tweaked but as i see in a broader sense of the specialization, feels nice to have new "toys" and "tools" to play with.

Its quite hilarious how you say willbender lacks something or feel special or new in reality that is more virtuoso if you actually played mesmer as a whole. 

 

Willbender introduced entirely new things and mobility for guardian class and each of the 3 specs so far plays very differently but most importantly traits that reflect on utilities and your core abilities. The only real issue with Willbender is that the numbers are very low but other then that mobility etc are good where as Virtuoso offers nothing new. If you look at the weapon itself it gives no boons, no condis, there is no mobility no CC just nothing, and the damage is very very low.

 

As for as Virtuoso goes there are several traits that literally are copies which are meaningless, for example Jagged Minds is no different then Sharper Images, Psychic Riposte is no different then Deceptive Evasion which I would like to add that its a nerf because you don't need to evade or block an attack for Deceptive Evasion to work.  

 

Next the condi aspect for Virtuoso is lackluster because bleeding is the lowest damaging condi and even if they added Bloodsong it still falls behind confusion, torment, and burn. 

 

Psionic skills are completely out of place because there is nothing that reduces their cd or give something by using them its just like a forgotten tooltip like "glamours." Speaking of CD there isn't anything for the dagger to reduce CD.

 

Lastly, the fact that Virtuoso's kit is ALL ranged projectiles meaning if you were doing WvW and zerging most of your attacks will not land for the purpose of things can get blocked and or reflected and the very fact that you failed to mention how bad the Elite is on Virtuoso the fact that not only is the range deceptive it does not fully hit and does not cast according to where you are pointing it rather then it goes according to where your character faces after casting mind blows me.

 

This is me playing Virtuoso for 1 hour and you are telling me that you played PvE and WvW and all you have to say is "No complaints for me really on the class" yet you come here telling us how Willbender is not good, uh I'm sorry do I need to go to Willbender feedback and say how great the class is no complaints?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yashizuko.9165]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

you failed to mention how bad the Elite is on Virtuoso

 

Let's start by saying that i have not failed to say anything since.. you know...  feedback is personal and you should write that to Anet, not me.

 

 it's not who win or loses scenario where the loudest voice wins, Anet decides what to do and how to balance, but people have the right to say what they feel and think freely, if you feel virtuoso sucks GOOD! but its your opinion, my opinion is that its an awesome class gameplay wise as far as i played it.

 

You have the right to write what you want in the willbender topic since again.... ITS PERSONAL OPINIONS

After that, i don't want to start flaming so... im out!

[Nezekan.2671]

1 minute ago, Yashizuko.9165 said:

 

Let's start by saying that i have not failed to say anything since.. you know...  feedback is personal and you should write that to Anet, not me.

 

 it's not who win or loses scenario where the loudest voice wins, Anet decides what to do and how to balance, but people have the right to say what they feel and think freely, if you feel virtuoso sucks GOOD! but its your opinion, my opinion is that its an awesome class gameplay wise as far as i played it.

 

You have the right to write what you want in the willbender topic since again.... ITS PERSONAL OPINIONS

After that, i don't want to start flaming so... im out!

Yes, and he is making sure you and everyone else knows your voice is voice of someone who has little knowledge about Mesmer. Virtuoso could be interesting for people who want to try out Mesmer, but almost all positive feedback is exclusive to people  who never played Mesmer before, at least not on a serious level. Which is saying something.

 

And you saying Virtuoso gets more new stuff than willbender is just plain wrong. Willbender is revolutionary for Guardian in terms of new mechanics.

[TomEdo.4185]

Is it possible to make virtuoso more WvW viable as a DPS alternative to necros and revenants?

- Currently the dagger attacks are projectiles which is the least efficient type of attacks in blob fights due to reflects and projectile blocks. It would be great to change it to an AoE focused weapon like guardian or necro staff.

- "Sword of Decimation"
Is it possible to change "Immobilize" to something else here? This is a condition and it is easily removable in a WvW scenario. Alternatively make the damage worth it/lower the cooldown drastically. It is a rather pointless skill to equip in the current setup.

- "Rain of Swords"
This ability is a very, very weak version of "Well of Suffering". Maybe it should be as strong as "Well of Suffering" or offer something different? Currently it is just BAD. It applies less Vulnerability (duration does not matter in this case, it will be cleansed fast in a blob scenario), it deals 5 times less damage (5 TIMES!), it is not unblockable, it has the exact same cooldown.

- "Blade Renewal"

A 3 seconds distortion on a 60 seconds cooldown that does nothing else. It is rather bad.

- All shatters
Again, as with daggers, these are projectiles, which makes them really bad in a WvW scenario due to reflects and projectile blocks. How about we introduce a trait that makes them unblockable instead of piercing to open them up for WvW play?

- "Thousand Cuts"
It would be amazing to have this skill move together with the mesmer while maintaining the same angle of shooting. Alternatively a very short cast time would solve the problem. Currently this skill is very hard to aim and land in a WvW environment.

[LucianDK.8615]

8 hours ago, Every day pon.5386 said:

Virtuoso has less utility than Core Mesmer professions. All it does is proc block via shatter like a pseudo guardian. I don't need a lifedraining 45k total hp boon necro with twice the autoattack weapon damage & condition count to tell me that it's performing fine!

Ive never really played Mesmer before, so the Espec feels quite strong in pve. From what I recall, the whole managing of clones never felt easy to do when I tried it a great many years back.

Personally I am delighted that theres a spellcaster with proper ranged reach.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

26 minutes ago, TomEdo.4185 said:

Is it possible to make virtuoso more WvW viable as a DPS alternative to necros and revenants?

- Currently the dagger attacks are projectiles which is the least efficient type of attacks in blob fights due to reflects and projectile blocks. It would be great to change it to an AoE focused weapon like guardian or necro staff.

- "Sword of Decimation"
Is it possible to change "Immobilize" to something else here? This is a condition and it is easily removable in a WvW scenario. Alternatively make the damage worth it/lower the cooldown drastically. It is a rather pointless skill to equip in the current setup.

- "Rain of Swords"
This ability is a very, very weak version of "Well of Suffering". Maybe it should be as strong as "Well of Suffering" or offer something different? Currently it is just BAD. It applies less Vulnerability (duration does not matter in this case, it will be cleansed fast in a blob scenario), it deals 5 times less damage (5 TIMES!), it is not unblockable, it has the exact same cooldown.

- "Blade Renewal"

A 3 seconds distortion on a 60 seconds cooldown that does nothing else. It is rather bad.

- All shatters
Again, as with daggers, these are projectiles, which makes them really bad in a WvW scenario due to reflects and projectile blocks. How about we introduce a trait that makes them unblockable instead of piercing to open them up for WvW play?

- "Thousand Cuts"
It would be amazing to have this skill move together with the mesmer while maintaining the same angle of shooting. Alternatively a very short cast time would solve the problem. Currently this skill is very hard to aim and land in a WvW environment.

 

Immobilize is fine on SoD, perhaps not in zerg fights, but on small scale. The problem is SoD is trash, the animation is absurdly long, this is fine on zergs but on small scale you'll never hit someone.

 

I thought blade renewal was bad before using it and it's actually good. All it needs is a shave on cd or get a stunbreak.

 

As for shatters, plenty of people suggest this, when the simplest is shatters are not considered projectile. Your suggestion will make that trait a mandatory one.

On shatters they should track such as other skills on game.

 

Thousand cuts - same thing as SoD. On zergs you always end up hitting someone. On small scale this skill does nothing. Needs to do tracking.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735
Typo

[Nezekan.2671]

Yes the elite is a huge problem. Virtuoso in pvp will likely end up with no good elite skill. Their own is bad in pvp and core mesmer elites are all situational and have long cds. Mirage not using Jaunt is very rare for example, because other options are terrible. Chrono in raids can use other elites, but outside of raids they also always take the well. Because core mesmer elites are really meh. So as a memser e-spec, if your elite skill is not good, you don't have an elite skill.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[Naneel.2348]

No mesmer main here. I found the Spec to be a lot of fun. Refreshing playstyle. Blades instead of clones are cool and really nice that you don't lose them when the enemy dies or you are out of fight. Gorgeous animations, except 4th bladesong (Bladesong Requiem). I don't like the look of the hovering blades around you.

Dagger 2 and 3 could use something other then pure damage. Maybe slow or cripple so you can maintain the distance better. Freeze would also work, but may not be the best fitting solution.

Elite skill (Thousand Cuts) is underwhelming, to narrow angle and damage is a bit low. Aiming is also a bit laborious. I suggest no manual aiming, just cast it in front of you. Either in the direction you are looking or in the direction of focused enemy. Lesser casttime could also help a lot.

I cannot say much about synergies between the traitlines. I like the you tried to make the Spec also condi viable, but the traits could use a bit improvement to support this really well. Also psyblades should apply confusion instead of bleed, makes more sense for me.

Bladesongs need lesser casttime, but please keep the animations.

[leanne.1579]

I am loving the virtuoso. Love the mesmer class and its other specializations but I fell like I can do so much more damage with Virtuoso. Will be sad to see the beta go as I can't play it anymore until release but really cannot wait for EoD now.

[leanne.1579]

Also forgot to say love the slight blue hues included in the virtuosos skills too ❤️

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

11 minutes ago, leanne.1579 said:

I am loving the virtuoso. Love the mesmer class and its other specializations but I fell like I can do so much more damage with Virtuoso. Will be sad to see the beta go as I can't play it anymore until release but really cannot wait for EoD now.

Let's not reach for these hankies just yet...

Ofc there will be another beta for vituoso and c.o. These specs aren't refined yet and to get xpac sales going a-net needs players to like'em. Willbender will need round two to get player approval, while Harbringer, as good as he is in dps department suffers from lackluster blight mechanic and mediocre if not right down below average synergy with core parts of necro.

Both of these boys will need some fine-tuning and round 2 with players to get the hype train going. If these guys come back, so will Virtuoso.

Edited August 21, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[leanne.1579]

3 minutes ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Let's not reach for these hankies just yet...

Ofc there will be another beta for vituoso and c.o. These specs aren't refined yet and to get xpac sales going a-net needs player to like'em. Willbender will need round two to get player approval, while Harbringer, as good as he is in dps department suffers from lackluster blight mechanic and mediocre if not right down below average synergy with core parts of necro.

Both of these boys will need some fine-tuning and round 2 with player to sell'em on the idea of "I want this". If these guys come back, so will Virtuoso.

 

True I am sure they will make changes but hopefully not too many to virtuoso. Tried out the Willbender and Harbinger for a little bit and they seem ok but spent most of my time playing Virtuoso as I love the mesmer class. As it is I just really like it, so lets see what they do.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

23 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

HURR DURR THIS IS THE MECHANIC YOU MUST DEAL WITH IT

I believe ANet will have to deal with the fact I'm not paying 30 bucks for a nerf 😉

[anduriell.6280]

15 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I believe ANet will have to deal with the fact I'm not paying 30 bucks for a nerf 😉

ahaha i really liked your interpretation of my words and you will pay 30 bucks for the expansion as soon as it comes out. I know that and you know that. 

 

Gosh mesmer mains are really salty, i just gave some suggestions about how the Virtu felt playing with and against it. Playing with it the damage felt right but i am used to deal with projectiles as i main ranger in wvw. Dagger felt more like a PvE weapon. GS was a good replacement as ranged weapon. 

 

Playing against it i felt it needed more access to cast shatters more often, i could see the daggers but i didn't see the enemies using shatters as often as they  needed, mainly the long CD ones. With a trait reducing that CDs so shatters can be used more often i think the combat would be more fluent and rhythmic. 

 

But mine are just suggestions it won't even mean Anet will even read my comment after 12 pages full of comments. 

 

Another small buff i think the Virtu could be considered for is to give the Elite Thousand Cuts the unblockable treatment, the skill  effect is pretty clear and has a hefty CD. And to give the  Bladeturn Requiem the reflection of projectiles as well as means to counter heavy projectile classes like soulbeast. 

Edited August 21, 2021 by anduriell.6280
added some buffs.

[Eddy.7051]

Feedback on theme rather than mechanics:

 

"Virtuoso", "Bladesong", "Harmony", "Dissonance", "Requiem", "Bladeturn Refrain" (GW1 Paragon Skill), and "Bloodsong" are all Virtuoso skills or traits that allude to music or singing. The problem is this theme is not executed in the skill animation visuals or sounds. If the Virtuoso must retain its music theme, please update Bladesong animations to reinforce this theme. Sounds: Add whistling sounds when casting Bladesongs as the blades slice through the air and/or add the sound of a musical note when acquiring a Bladesong (acquiring the first is a low note, acquiring the second is a higher note, acquiring the third is an even higher note, etc.). Visuals: Add a trail of musical notes or sound waves (represented as either wavy lines or a series of expanding rings) when casting Bladesongs and/or add pulsing sound wave rings to each Bladesong while they are stocked and floating.

 

Virtuoso's apparent themes in its animations and mechanics: materializing blades, telekinesis, and dueling. These themes expand on the core Mesmer facet of mental power and sharpness. But the music theme, often associated with emotional/social/spiritual intelligence (D&D charisma or wisdom), does not seem cohesive with psionic power (D&D intelligence). It may be best to rename all skills, traits, and the name "Virtuoso" to remove all references of music and signing. If another theme should take its place, I recommend the theme of cerebral electricity. In fantasy and sci-fi, abnormally high electricity activity in the nervous system, along with telekinesis, is associated with high brain power. GW1 Mesmers also have lightning themed skill icons/animations (Chaos Storm, Backfire, Drain Enchantment, Energy Surge, Ineptitude, Migraine, Mind Wrack, and Shatter Enchantment), GW2 Mesmers also have Chaos Storm, and Virtuoso already has two skills with "storm" in their names. Skill animations can be updated with zappy/thundering sounds, trailing lightning behind thrown blades, and/or chaining electrical currents between stocked and floating Bladesongs. The "Bladesong" skill type can be renamed to "Bladebolt", "Virtuoso" can be renamed to "Psion" (Wikipedia: "...a fictitious unit of mental energy..."), and the "Psionic" skill type can be renamed to not be redundant with the specialization name.

 

It would be best to save the music theme for a Bard-inspired, Mesmer elite specialization.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Eddy.7051
Reformatted because bulleted list format looked better in Preview mode

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I like the spec, the actually long (1200) range on dagger feels really nice, as does carrying your arsenal of blades from battle to battle, giving me frontloaded damage options.

But the spec is unfinished.

Illusionary Inspiration does not work at all with blade stacking. That should not be. In fact i don't understand why virtuoso is denied good aoe healing through it and possibly some new additions to his aoe healing capacity. Since he lacks the boonshare of chrono and mirage, it would make sense to at least make him heal allies better.

Psychic Riposte is underperforming - one blade stocked on evade or block with 1s icd?? Infinite forge never lets you run on empty no matter the build, Bloodsong stocks blades like crazy with good crit rate and bleeding traits.

One is completely build agnostic, other depends on your actions. But Psychic Riposte is dictated by the enemy. If something attacks at a slow rate or nearly at all...(like focusing another target) you're without a grandmaster...
And the scenarios where you could capitalize on it (blocking a rapid succession of attacks with your f4 or longer evade frames) are capped with 1s icd. So you're totally free to fail, but not free to succeed..

[jupe.8925]

Virtuoso is clunky.

 

I haven't read all the comments here but this comes up a lot and I got the same impression after testing virtuoso couple days, mostly in wvw.

 

For me the clunkiness comes mainly from these bladesong restrictions:
1) Not able to shatter to enemy behind you.
2) F1 and F2 requires enemy target to activate. So basically not able to shatter in place.

 

The latter also removes synergy with other traits for example inspiration condi cleanse when using shatters. Now you cannot use those shatters for cleanse if you have no enemy in front of you but you have paid the cost for generating the blades to enable the shatters. You have skills you have prepared and even traited to work together but cannot use them.

 

Given that the shatters have now casting time, they requires blades to activate and are projectiles, I feel that points 1), 2) makes virtuoso gameplay a bit resrictive and makes most of the clunky feeling for me.

 

One can argue that being not able to use F1 and F2 shatters if there is no path to enemy can save the shatter to be used in the future, and I agree, but having not able to use the skill when you want is bigger loss for me.

 

And  same thing with virtuoso healing skill. Current implementation where healing does not activate if enemy target is not in front of you feels weird. To use healing skill as a healing purposes you basically need to untarget and retarget between to make sure you get the heal. Most people tend to use their heal skill when they need health not when they wanna attack. I think its fair punishment if you try to attack with your heal skill and it misses and your healing skill goes cooldown for that.

 

As a wvw enjoyer the whole projectile thing makes the class less wanted in organized fights which is sad of course, ranger has the same problem in current meta.

 

Other than that I like the idea of virtuoso. Sword 3 mobility is nice (I miss the immobilize on swap) and animations are nice. Casting times gives also possibility to counter play which is good design in my option.

 

So my wish list for improvements:
- Allow bladesongs to be used to enemies behind you
- Allow all bladesongs to be used without targets
- Healing skill activation is not dependent on enemy target position

 

Thanks :)

 

[Matt H.6142]

The stun break needs a second of stability. I’ve seen the stun break cancel when chain interrupted. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 pages of feedback, some contraditory.
I just wish they listen to the right people this time, instead of doing like they did with mirage and proceeded to destroy both mirage and core.

[Farohna.6247]

8 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Ive never really played Mesmer before, so the Espec feels quite strong in pve. From what I recall, the whole managing of clones never felt easy to do when I tried it a great many years back.

Personally I am delighted that theres a spellcaster with proper ranged reach.

Same, I tried mesmer and just never really took to it, currently it's just a crafting alt.  And I was pleasantly surprised at the ranged abilities.  I like the colors and effects, great fun!  Played around in open world, enjoyed trying it out.  Heals felt a little slow to me, but I think that was balanced with the damage so it wasn't a big issue.  Dual daggers would be cool thematically for this spec.