Virtuoso Feedback Thread [Merged]

[Nezekan.2671]

5 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

You obviously are forgetting Mindwrack needs you to create the clones first which doesn't work against anyone unless the mesmer is using macros to chain the attacks making them instant but you risk getting your account banned (multiple skills with one button press is not allowed). 

 

Bladesongs uses projectiles which travel distances better you get used to that. If the target  avoid your blades that seems to be more of a you problem. 

 

If you want the shatters to work like Rapid_Fire keep in mind that is channelling skill which means you would be shooting slower for longer time to follow the target.

 

If you think it would be better to have the Virtuoso shooting blades, one every 0.5s would be better than what you have now think again. 

 

 

 

 

What are you even talking about? There are many ways to chain clones and shatter them before anyone has a chance to touch them. Specially as mirage since you can apply your evade to them.

The simplest exacmple is using greatsword so lets do that. You use skill 4 (2 phantasm if you have the trait, which you should if you are using gs), before phantasm turn into clones you use greatsword 2 which instantly summons a clone and you immediately shatter after with 3 clones. If you are Chrono and have the trait, they will get superspeed. If you are mirage, you can dodge BEFORE you shatter, so they ambush first then proceed to shatter, all during their evade.

Bladesong either needs to be homing or be instant, or it always be inferior to shatters. In pvp at least.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Nezekan.2671

[anduriell.6280]

 

Quote

Says you. You have no understanding of Mesmer class and how it plays. Virtuoso needs to synergie with core mesmer as a whole. It can't be its own thing. Bladesongs weaken the mesmer class as a whole because you lose access to all clone mechanics. They can't be distractions, you can't break targetting and most importantly, you can't use them to apply conditions or remove boons with sword 1 and many other utilities. What you get in return is an animation heavy cast time which can be avoided by just walking. Its unacceptable and you are completely out of your depth if you think its "fine".

Well that is the mechanic you are getting so the sooner you deal with it the better. Remember Anet devs said this e-specs would play completely different and not just a plain upgrade. 

 

Now re-read you comment and you will see how your issues with the e-spec  are not with the blades but the lack of synergy with the clones original mechanic. Maybe you should be moving in that direction because no homecoming, unblockable, instant and unavoidable Bladesongs will bring the synergy you are asking there. 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol corrections

[Me Games Ma.3024]

35 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Its still super underwhelming as last trait. Compare it to Infinite Horizons or Chronophantasmia and you will see. A power based build should have better options in the last trait column. It feels better to be condi than power with Virtuoso, but I don't think it can even get close to Condi mirage in terms of damage and it shouldn't be the focus of the class anyway. Also, you are forced to use blade based weapons, which is awkward for a condi build.

I completely aggree. My only point was that the bleeding trait is actually the best of the 3 for PvE content^^

 

 

More feedback regarding Bleeding-Virtuoso:

Dagger feels surprisingly good on condi virtuoso. The whole skillset seems to be designed with this build in mind. I loved playing it and I will definetly try it out when EOD gets released.

However there's a number of problems with the idea behind a bleeding focused spec on mesmer. First of all and this is the most important: All of mesmer's bleeding comes from 3 traits! These beeing Duelist's Discipline, Sharper Images and Jagged Mind. Aside from this there is NO bleeding application on mesmer. None! In addition to this, Duelist's Discipline shares a tier with Phantasmal Fury which has extremely good synergy on virtuoso but you can never take it since Duelist's Discipline is taking this spot. (A problem that mesmers have been complaining about since Anet turned Traitlines into Core-Specializations.)

Then there's the problem of good stat combinations for condition virtuoso. Essentially we'd need a [Precision=Condition Damage>Power=Expertise] Stat Combination which is just Viper's with power and precision switched.

I've played some bleeding virtuoso running full rampager's gear with the rune of the krait. The build felt extremely good to play (by pattern and gameplay) but was inferior to the power variant by far.

 

The changes I would suggest to make bleeding virtuoso a thing would be:

1. Merge Jagged Mind into Sharper Images. Yes the trait becomes really powerful if you do that but the bleeding virtuoso focused on critical hits as much as a power variant.
2. Create a new trait that somehow interacts with bleeding in the spot where Jagged Mind was. We already have a trait that rewards us for applying bleeds so this spot should be focused around applying them. An example that many here have requested would be a trait that interacts with our Psyonics or the Dagger. I'd love to be able to trait these. Especially since they are already highly focused on power damage switching them up to interact with our bleeds would be fun!
3. Make more Weapons have the blade tooltip. Especially Scepter and Sword (MH & OH).
4. Make F2 a bleeding skill by default many people have called this and I think so too! The bug that's currently in the beta allows us to see how well it plays out if you make this skill apply bleeding.
5. Either move Duelist's Discipline to the Master Tier of Dueling or make the Pistol a bleeding weapon by default. I never understood why the pistol had to be traited to become a condition weapon.

[Nezekan.2671]

18 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

Well that is the mechanic you are getting so the sooner you deal with it the better. Remember Anet devs said this e-specs would play completely different and not just a plain upgrade. 

 

Now re-read you comment and you will see how your issues with the e-spec  are not with the blades but the lack of synergy with the clones original mechanic. Maybe you should be moving in that direction because no homecoming, unblockable, instant and unavoidable Bladesongs will bring the synergy you are asking there. 

 

Yes, if as you suggested you go back and reread what I said, the new mechanics do not need to synergize with core mesmer. They may or may not. E-specs can certainly break rules, but these new mechanics need to be equally good or even better than core. If they are just going to be lackluster, then what is the point? Bladesongs are inferior compared to shatters. They don't need to completely replace them and do the exact same thing, but they need to be as good or better in other ways. Which they are not currently.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

19 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

 

Well that is the mechanic you are getting so the sooner you deal with it the better. Remember Anet devs said this e-specs would play completely different and not just a plain upgrade. 

 

The problem is that this is a downgrade.

Core has more sustain, more sustain damage and more burst.

[antidote.7201]

 

PvE

 

Virtuoso is amazing to play. The skills are well designed and effective with correct cooldowns. The stunbreak "Psychic cooldown" is a little bit high (45 seconds) but still, very enjoyable when overwhelmed by enemies because this skill knockback and bring some timing for another phase fight. Since we don't really have access to clones, we need to build something around burst damages and mobility/kiting. For some fight with certains types of mobs (with breakbar or regeneration-protection boons), the burst is not enough and we start engaging another timing where we have to kite. This brings a problem : we kinda lack of real access to swiftness/quickness, and overall boon access (unless we play with the Staff). I'd love to have superspeed for 1 or 2 skill, that could bring me to a position where I can manage to control the fight. It's the only problem I had to deal with, because this class is really fun to play, with different combination of skills for deferent timings. The designs are good, but for my spec, "Rain of Swords" brings me some drop of fps.

 

WvW

I didn't tested this new elite in WvW, but I think we'll have the same talk, about mobility and faster skills ;  I'm not really worried about cooldown, they seems to be really reasonable but the overall timings for dagger skills seems a little bit slow to be really timed on a large scale fight. As for the harbringer, I would have a ground targeted animation for the daggers in wvw.

[Loboling.5293]

I've played around with Virtuoso now more. And I find the spec a lot of fun actually. If not a little too linear. 

Changes required:

• Remove Condition build from Virtuoso (Virtuoso will never be a condi line, don't waste traits and abilities on things we don't need)
• Reduce cooldown on breakstun to 30 seconds
• Fix the block duration on f4, it seems to be shorter than the tooltip
• Ensure that Clone generation skills & phantasms create a blade on successful cast, instead of on the completion of the animation. This ensure that if you get off a skill, and it hits, you get a blade. Rather than if you kill an opponent with that skill, you get nothing.
• Increase the radius of the elite skill slightly
• Increase the delay on the immobilize utility skill. Given it's extra damage on cc skill, it should be easier to set that bonus damage up. 
• Bug fix blade generation cap of 3 with some traits and utilities
• F3 also needs to be instant cast.

 

I think with those changes, and possibly a bit of tuning and bug fixes I think Virtuoso can be a great addition to Mesmer.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Loboling.5293

[OriOri.8724]

First, I think virtuouso is a beautiful spec to play. I am completely in love with all of the visuals. I'll try not to repeat all of what plenty of others have already said, and I agree with most of the criticisms.

 

Leaving some more high level feedback though:

 

Doesn't feel like there is a cohesive high level design for the spec - Its really made out to be a long range power spec for mesmer, but the implementation doesn't support this. The projectile speeds on dagger are far too slow to hit stuff at range, the shapeof dagger 2 is impractical for a 1200 range attack, utility/elite skills have such long cast times (on top of then waiting for animations to finish before damage starts) that anything you target can easily get out of them. And then there's mental  focus which is just weird for a supposed long range spec to only boost damage at medium range or closer. Its a "long range power dps spec" without the kit to actually support that playstyle

 

Cast times are long - Its fine to have some really impactful skills have a longer cast time, but every virtuoso skill has a high cast time. 1s heal, 1s elite (could be fine if it was more effective, but its already kind of lackluster even though it looks amazing), 1/2s, 1/2s, 3/4s for the utility skills. And the bladesongs are the worst, shatters that have huge cast times. Every skill is an investment just to cast it, which is kind of a weird decision on a spec with no surivability built in, and the payoff from the skills doesn't justify this. Blade renewal itself is also weird. Mesmer gets distortion without channeling it. Chrono gets continuum shift in place of distortion, but importantly it doesn't have to channel it, it can keep playing while its active. And virtuoso gets a channeled distortion, while already having the leastbuilt in survivability out of core mesmer, chrono, and mirage. Move the distortion from blade renewal to F4, and the block from F4 to blade renewal. Both skills need more tweaks, but at least this would make more sense.

 

Not a lot of synergy with itself or core mesmer - It's worth mentioning again that there's no dagger trait and also no psionic trait. Then the conflict between dagger ostensibly being a ranged weapon and mental focus. Blades now persist outside of combat, but there's no way to actually generate a blade out of combat other than blade renewal (while I don't necessarily think this is the best way to improve indigo forge, one thing that could be done is to at least have it work at all times, not just in combat). Broken core mesmer traits etc...

 

Bladesongs - Should be instant cast, or no more than 1/4s cast times on these. Swap distortion and block between F4 and blade renewal. Sharpening sorrow grants fury to the condi bladesong instead of the power one for some reason? Bladeturn refrain needs to be reworked. Bladesongs already are affected by shatter traits, and now they can also be further traited via blade traits, we really don't need yet another trait that just grants an extra boon to them. I think this is a great trait to replace with one for the dagger or for psionic skills. Also, the skills are generally underwhelming, but I suspect that's because they can now scale up to 5 blades vs the 3 illusions that shatters scale off of.

 

Bladesong sorrow - Singling this one out because it felt the most weird to me. Its clear that you wanted the bladesongs functionality to mirror shatters (power dmg, condi dmg, daze, distortion lul no virtuoso get block), but I think that's lazy and also again works against the spec having a cohesive theme. This bears repeating, but virtuoso feels like it was designed to be a ranged power dmg spec. So why is one of its bladesongs, the one that it can actually trait the most, still condi focused, and still confusion focused no less? Staying in line with a duelists theme, I think that this should not be confusion, but more bleeding, and something like crippled or blinded. That fits in much better with the theme of being a duelist, and also helps focus this as a power dmg spec by reducing the number of damaging conditions it has innate access to.

 

And lastly, Everything virtuoso does, another spec can do significantly better - There's no place for it, gamewide, right now. And no matter how much fun it might be to play when the expansion comes, if this remains true it will always feel bad to play a spec that isn't the best, or even second or third best, at anything its supposed to do

[Exhibit A.2346]

Posting this here even though it's not specific to the virtuoso because there is no general feedback thread. Would it be possible to enable living story content in future elite spec betas? I'm loving virtuoso so far and I'd like to get an idea of how it performs in that specific environment.

[belgarath.6284]

I haven't played the spec much myself, but I raided with a few players who were using it. The rain of blades utility skill looks really cool but was pretty annoying when tanking bosses. The circle in the air was blocking my view of the boss.  Properly blocking boss attacks was somewhat hard.
Would be amazing if this circle could become a little more see trough so it's easier for players to see what a boss is doing.

[Salvatore.3749]

A lot of people have already covered some of the things I noticed, but I haven't seen threads discussing Dagger skill 1's effect and animation. It seems odd as sometimes it moves slower and at other times it does not. I was in thunderhead peaks last night and sometimes the psionic wave would move a decent speed, but when strafing it would move slower. I am not sure if it is because the animation is delayed, but if I was stationary, it wouldn't slow down and was quite fast.

 

Vallun posted a review video on youtube stating it was slow, but I only encountered the slow moving psionic blade when strafing. He did say it was slow whenever he used skill 1 and it needs to be sped up, but I think the time varies if you are moving around your target. 

[Zera.9435]

It has it all: damage, not too squishy, looks cool, and breathes new life into mesmer. You know what that means? It's going to be heavily nerfed before release. So I hope you guys enjoyed playing virtuoso as it is now (I know I did!), because come release time it will be nerfed to the ground. Fun while it lasted!

[Mungo Zen.9364]

Funny, you think it is great and will be nerfed. Others think it is weak and needs buffing.
 

I’d like to play these elites again when they have the traits and skills interacting properly.  Virtuoso and Harbinger are quite playable mechanically (and I assume Willbender but that isn’t my style). There is too much polish missing from these elites though, and currently I wouldn’t take any of these over existing elites. 
 

 

[Batel.9206]

I took my Virtuoso into HoT maps, figuring that if I could survive against that content I could get a decent feel for how the class does under pressure.

 

...after effortlessly slaughtering my way through Mordrem teragriffs (it didn't even manage to attack *once* before it died), giant mushrooms, pocket raptors, etc., I've come to the same conclusion: this is so going to be nerfed into the ground, but heck if it isn't fun while it lasts.

[Zera.9435]

7 minutes ago, Batel.9206 said:

I took my Virtuoso into HoT maps, figuring that if I could survive against that content I could get a decent feel for how the class does under pressure.

 

...after effortlessly slaughtering my way through Mordrem teragriffs (it didn't even manage to attack *once* before it died), giant mushrooms, pocket raptors, etc., I've come to the same conclusion: this is so going to be nerfed into the ground, but heck if it isn't fun while it lasts.

Anet is like "Oh crap, we did our job too well. NERF IT!"

Also, I love how we're both "But how well can it do in HoT maps?"

Edited August 20, 2021 by Zera Allimatti.2541

[Doggie.3184]

It just focuses on one thing which is doing "All the damage"

 

Mindlessly wipes out everything instantly with every attack doing insane damage.... except for Dagger 3. XD gotta tag mobs somehow I guess though. It might be the only time I'd enjoy playing Mesmer, it's always been my least played. 

[OriOri.8724]

One more thought, it would be really nice to get an offhand dagger alongside MH dagger. So far, chrono gave us an offhand, and mirage gave us a MH weapon, but this is the third expansion now where mesmer's elite spec doesn't get 5 new weapon skills.

 

I guess this really doesn't have much to do with virtuoso itself, more just would like to see more new weapon skills. Part of the "tradeoff" chrono gave for only having 2 new weapon skills was CS, mirage gained ambush attacks in addition to axe. And virtuoso just randomly gets a new sword 3 and that's it. I just feel like there's plenty of room for an OH dagger in this spec, thematically even. Pistol leans condi for mesmers, and the OH dagger could have cripple to help keep enemies away from you, which would support the theme of being a ranged duelist. Could also throw in something wild, like a reverse leap, to put distance between you and the thing you crippled. That would be a fun, and rather unique, skill to bring to the table

[Sir Alric.5078]

2 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Funny, you think it is great and will be nerfed. Others think it is weak and needs buffing.
 

 

I think it depends on which game mode you are playing. It's weak in competitive modes like PvP where you have projectile hate with all the reflects/blocks and where players can just dodge/walk out of the AoEs, but it's strong in PvE against mobs who don't do that. I personally had a lot of fun these past two days playing virtuoso in OW. Plus the animations for the skills are super cool and pretty. 

[CroTiger.7819]

Edit: 1: replace current f4 for blade renewal so it still stays cast time and invuln instead some low dmg counterable block

         2: shatter f1 and f2 can be casted while stunned/without los but attack is delayed as much as current cast times are 

         3: Grandmaster trait which alows shatter f1-2-3 to have unblockable effect like if 5 blades are used 3 attacks are unblockable

         4: Shatter 3 needs reveal and perform like instant hit above target for reliable ranged cc interupt

 

That is from pvp perspective because class is fun but rest of broken things make it rly imposible to work with current design. Dagger mainhand autos are slow, utilities should also get some reveal effects probly on top of f3 shatter to differ it in positive way from last shatter designs. Nothing toxic about having counters to stealth just sayin... After all this years i guess mesmer should have good counterplay into thief instead this new shaters which will just make it worse than it was before.

Edited August 20, 2021 by CroTiger.7819

[Zera.9435]

1 hour ago, Sir Alric.5078 said:

 

I think it depends on which game mode you are playing. It's weak in competitive modes like PvP where you have projectile hate with all the reflects/blocks and where players can just dodge/walk out of the AoEs, but it's strong in PvE against mobs who don't do that. I personally had a lot of fun these past two days playing virtuoso in OW. Plus the animations for the skills are super cool and pretty. 

Ah but that's the beauty of it: PvP doesn't matter!

[Tim.9176]

Love the Virtuoso specialization. The spec feels fun while playing it. Though I like the animations I do think that some of them need to be toned down a bit as having multiple virtuoso's just turns the area into a purple field of raining daggers. Playing around in WvW was very fun, and this spec feels good to me. I roamed as well as followed a some zergs and had good experiences with the spec. Some of the feedback I read seemed to want to entirely remake the class which in my opinion does not need to happen. Aside from some skill or trait upgrades I think the spec is well designed and is intended to be played pretty differently then prior specs. I think I should add that I mostly do WvW, both roaming and zerging, and sometimes fractals with friends. I will list out some thoughts on the traits and skills.

 

Traits

 

 

Quiet Intensity – I have seen a few people say that this trait keying off vitality seems wrong, but I completely disagree. I love the design of this trait and think that keying off vitality is what makes it interesting, and could open up a variety of runes to use.

 

Deadly Blades – I think this minor trait is fine.

 

Jagged Mind – It’s incredibly easy to maintain a lot of bleed stacks with this trait, however I think that this could be added to Bloodsong and a new trait could replace it.

 

Bladesong Refrain – Good Trait

 

Mental Focus – Never picked this trait, just seemed lackluster compared to the other two.

 

Duelists Reversal – This, to me, is the trait of choice from this tier. Sharpening Sorrow only affecting one bladesong seems aweful and the use of phantasms on this spec is, in my experience, diminished (while using the dagger). Compared to duelists reversal’s reliable access to quickness the other two options seem mediocre.

 

Sharpening Sorrow –Am I missing something here, because this only affecting one song seems terrible.

 

Phantasmal Blades – Seems fine if you are trying to summon a lot of phantasms, but as I expressed earlier I think this spec is far less interested in them than other specs. Needs actual damage instead of 40....

 

The grandmaster traits are where I think some work could go into them. Bloodsong is only viable if taken with jagged mind, and those two traits taken together from my experience generate and incredible amount of blades essentially making the others feel like they do nothing. Combining the bleed on crit from jagged mind and bloodsong, while also reworking effects from the other two may be something to consider.

 

Infinite Forge – In my opinion this is a trap trait and should never be taken..  (I think I was incorrect in my initial assessment. However, I still don't think the grandmaster traits do enough.)

 

Bloodsong – The top choice for me along with jagged mind, these two traits give you access to huge amounts of stocked blades.

 

Riposting Blade – I think this needs an added effect, as well as doing real damage instead of dealing 40, something like if the blade hits your foe is weakened or crippled.

 

Skills

 

Overall the skills feel very fun to me. I like the implementation of the main hand dagger and that it is a ranged weapon. The dagger skills seem mostly fine to me with the following caveats.

 

Flying Cutter - Triggering a blade flurry could, maybe should, reward a boon. Might I think is the obvious choice for the boon.

 

Bladecall – I think this needs something like, “apply a boon to yourself for each blade that hits an enemy, this may only occur once per blade per cast,” and “remove a boon from an enemy on the return, this may only occur once per blade per cast.” This may not be worded correctly as the intent would be that a single blade can only remove or grant one boon for the first enemy it hits and subsequent hits from the same blade on other enemies would act as normal hits. This would allow limited boon hindrance in aoe situations but if you hit the same target on a single cast it could grant multiple boons/boon removal. Maybe regeneration protection and swiftness for the boons gained.

 

Unstable Bladestorm – I like this skill. Fun to cast, not sure if its actually good. Also bladenado applying some condition or something other then just being sharknado light would be in line with the mesmer's class identity.

 

I think that the utility skills have gotten a little too much undeserved negativity, they are still at least somewhat lackluster. Psychic force almost just seems like it reads give yourself some might stacks and fury for awhile with a cool down of 45 seconds, obviously I could be completely wrong though.

 

Twin Blade Restoration – I think this is fine and has some nice flavor.

 

Thousand Cuts – I like this skill a lot. As in it was fun to use.

 

I am looking forward to being able to play this permanently, and I hope it gets to retain it’s interesting identity.

 

Edit: The more I play the more I love this spec and the more I think the damage is fine.

 

Edit #2: The damage seems fine and there are benchmarks that show it, but the utility skills do need work. I am not entirely sure but when first taking the virtuoso into WvW the cool down of twin blade restoration was 20 seconds like indicated on the wiki. When I was able to play more on Saturday I noticed that the cool down was 30 seconds. This doesn't really seem necessary. I think Psychic Force should let you blink some amount of units, 600 or so, prior to the knock-back and boons take effect. Weaken could be added to Sword of Decimation. Rain of swords could also just add bleed stacks, even if you don't have jagged mind. I don't understand why the dagger skills don't actually do anything boon or condition-wise without jagged mind.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tim.9176
Added more things

[Chapell.1346]

looks like a suppressive act to fabricate the underlying main issue the Mesmer has.

[Every day pon.5386]

Generally underperforming than othe professions & less interesting than even the basic Mesmer

[LucianDK.8615]

23 minutes ago, Every day pon.5386 said:

Generally underperforming than othe professions & less interesting than even the basic Mesmer

 

Underperforming? Hardly

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/virtuoso/power-virtuoso

42k dps

 

I must say I am super impressed with the Virtuosu, plays a lot better than the Harbinger. Plus far less squishy by magnitudes. It can really load up with powerful aoe attacks to mow down foes.  The Harbinger gets? Bland and boring elixirs.

 

Though I had not expected the graphic of the five floating blades.  Clashes with alot of things like Ad infinitum or aurora+vision.

Edited August 21, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Every day pon.5386]

16 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

 

Underperforming? Hardly

https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/virtuoso/power-virtuoso

42k dps

 

I must say I am super impressed with the Virtuosu, plays a lot better than the Harbinger. Plus far less squishy by magnitudes. It can really load up with powerful aoe attacks to mow down foes.  The Harbinger gets? Bland and boring elixirs.

 

Though I had not expected the graphic of the five floating blades.  Clashes with alot of things like Ad infinitum or aurora+vision.

Virtuoso has less utility than Core Mesmer professions. All it does is proc block via shatter like a pseudo guardian. I don't need a lifedraining 45k total hp boon necro with twice the autoattack weapon damage & condition count to tell me that it's performing fine!