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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, it doesn't. I play one in GvG and while we might not be top tier like Lays or similar, in mid tier and up until right before top tier, support spellbreaker outperforms Firebrand cleanses by a mile.

    I've yet to see a warrior do actual work on the cleanse meter so... unless you show me some evidence of warriors hitting at LEAST top 3 on cleanse charts in a 3-5 minute fight (not a one push) than until then, i won't be convinced they serve much use in the support department.

    the last rework makes cleansing more important now and actually requires dedicated cleanse supports even more than before. So while support Tempest took a hit, the ability to cleanse it still provides became more valuable

    Ya, i get that. I don't mind people running tempest. But, i don't see why everyone considers it to be important NOW than it was PRE-patch, especially after what made tempest good was taken from them. If you need more cleanse just bring scrappers why bother with a tempest? They lost over 60% of their healing, 25% of their cleansing and actual utility. They lost almost everything. Just because condi-meta came back doesn't mean tempest gets magically better.

    I've been observing cleanses going out from tempests running in top guild squads, and honestly i just get really angry when i'm out-cleansing them on my meme revanant. I get angry because i usto main Tempest, so i know exactly how capable they were and that they us to be able to top cleanse. so seeing everyone all of a sudden bandwagon and do pitiful cleansing in comparison to me and scrappers just makes me think what is going on thought process wise in their head. The ship sailed a long time ago, everyone is 10 months too late.

    Here check out this cleanse meter for example.

    This is TpW (and a bunch of ESL's running alt guild tags.) Every group has a Tempest and a Scrapper. There is also at least 2 Minstrel Support Warriors in there but they aren't even close to the top 10. Personally, i was testing a meme Rev heal build (like 3rd day play a revanant ever.)

    So imagine my reaction right now in this fight ( and all the other fights this night). I'm actually just super mad. How is it that these tempests who are ESL level players barely scratching 200 cleanses, against the scrappers scooping 300-400 cleanses, and supposedly tempests are meta now because they are good cleanse? I'm sitting their mashing just my 6 key on rev doing cleanses bigger than these tempests... i was actually fuming.

    Again another example

    This one is a bit wonky because there was a time difference in combat, but it was the same general picture throughout the whole fight. Tempests were biting the dust in comparison to everyone else. One of the warriors does okay for a warrior, he's able to actually out cleanse a few of the tempests. But again what i'm thinking here is "Why are people taking tempests now because its clearly not for the cleansing is it?"

    Anyway i'm not trying to prove a point or anything. I'm cool with whatever people want to do so long as it's actually doing something useful. Being a former Tempest main just bothered me that people weren't even keen on Tempest until AFTER they were nerfed into the ground. so it just leads me to believe that people don't even know what they are doing in the game when it comes to build analysis etc.

    I'll see if we get any good fights. Currently in EU T1 there is nothing but roaming cloud and blobs. Our scrim for today just cancelled, we should have one for tomorrow and Wednesday.

    Public cleanses are hardly any proof. I outperform 90% of the heal scrappers on my server in publics on tempest (Dzagonur).

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll see if we get any good fights. Currently in EU T1 there is nothing but roaming cloud and blobs. Our scrim for today just cancelled, we should have one for tomorrow and Wednesday.

    Public cleanses are hardly any proof. I outperform 90% of the heal scrappers on my server in publics on tempest

    My guild broke up last month, so I’ve just been following other guilds as a pug, but these charts is a common display ever since I saw Tempest popping up more often post patch. Prepatch there were barely any tempests, as they were somewhat shunned because they weren’t considered meta, but at least back then they could compete with scrapper Cleanse wise.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll see if we get any good fights. Currently in EU T1 there is nothing but roaming cloud and blobs. Our scrim for today just cancelled, we should have one for tomorrow and Wednesday.

    Public cleanses are hardly any proof. I outperform 90% of the heal scrappers on my server in publics on tempest

    My guild broke up last month, so I’ve just been following other guilds as a pug, but these charts is a common display ever since I saw Tempest popping up more often post patch. Prepatch there were barely any tempests, as they were somewhat shunned because they weren’t considered meta, but at least back then they could compete with scrapper Cleanse wise.

    I do have to make some corrections to numbers (scrims always seem longer than they actually are). For dedicated GvG, correct the time to around 1 minute for warriors, after that scrappers will pull ahead (and even before that but it depends on how well the group is in avoiding bombs). It mostly comes down to:

    • in blob warrior on berserker (or even marauder) has become a lot more squishy
    • in GvG you need to play a lot more careful, but the early cleanse is very useful (though here as mentioned, good guilds run either)

    So yes, I was over estimating fight times and used today open field fights and on border scrims as reference. Sorry bout that.

    All of our warriors are constantly asking to be allowed to switch to offense again but lead is holding fast on support spellbreaker. Then again, I avoid warrior in publics myself currently and usually roll scrapper or tempest. Depends on if there is a gild core or not.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I do have to make some corrections to numbers (scrims always seem longer than they actually are). For dedicated GvG, correct the time to around 1 minute for warriors, after that scrappers will pull ahead (and even before that but it depends on how well the group is in avoiding bombs). It mostly comes down to:

    • in blob warrior on berserker (or even marauder) has become a lot more squishy
    • in GvG you need to play a lot more careful, but the early cleanse is very useful (though here as mentioned, good guilds run either)
      So yes, I was over estimating fight times and used today open field fights and on border scrims as reference. Sorry bout that.

    All of our warriors are constantly asking to be allowed to switch to offense again but lead is holding fast on support spellbreaker. Then again, I avoid warrior in publics myself currently and usually roll scrapper or tempest. Depends on if there is a gild core or not.

    Ya that’s fair, no need to apologize. if we talk about optimization for 1 minute fights (where ideally you one push and win the engagement) than almost any build can cleanse sufficiently enough in that time frame to be useful.

    But from my own analysis, the way these builds should be looked at is through how good they can be in the most non ideal situations, where fights could potentially last up to 3 minutes or more, or in outnumber situations where you are outnumbered 2 to 1. In these situations, a support spell breaker or Tempest can’t compete with scrappers in the cleanse department (and pretty much every other department in terms of support)

    Again I have nothing against spell breakers or Tempest, (it usto be my main after all)...I just don’t like how misinformation from metabattle or opinions from top players being treated as gospel have trumped true analysis and genuine theory-craft. The analysis has shown that scrapper just far exceeds other classes atm, and that a lot of the post patch updates did nothing but hurt these classes in real performance.

    People should definitely be complaining about the changes to Tempest but they aren’t (because of said misinformation) which just makes me angry...means we will never get to see Tempest return to a place where it was actually doing work and had a real purpose in WvW.

  • Paradoxoglanis.1904Paradoxoglanis.1904 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why does everyone mention aegis as if its relevant? it blocks one attack lol, and isn't a stackable boon.

    There are quite a few reasons.

    • Blocking part of a bomb with aegis puts a lot less pressure on your supports
    • The pure of heart trait heals allies when aegis blocks an attack
    • The invigorated bulwark trait grants the FB additional healing after blocking attacks
    • The tenacious defense trait reduces the cooldown of tome of courage when aegis you apply blocks an attack

    It makes a huge difference, you can tell when a group knows how to play FB and use aegis effectively because they will often block the majority of your initial bomb.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fb and quickness too. Makes all your cast time and animation faster. Really important on executing the bomb. This is why the 3 2 3 is important on fbs

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Here are 4 skirmishes from tonight on my dagger/focus Aurashare Tempest.

    Aurashare Tempest AOE cleanses with almost everything: applying auras, transmuting auras (removes 2), overloads (because they give auras), water overload AOE cleanse on each pulse, wash the pain away AOE cleanse on last pulse, attuning to water AOE cleanse, shouts AOE cleanse (with rune of the trooper), dodging AOE cleanses (burning and chilled only), and Elemental Bastion cleanses when it grants frost aura. Plus Lesser Cleansing Fire (passive), and Magnetic Wave each remove 3 conditions from the Tempest.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tribal.2781 said:
    Here are 4 skirmishes from tonight on my dagger/focus Aurashare Tempest.

    Aurashare Tempest AOE cleanses with almost everything: applying auras, transmuting auras (removes 2), overloads (because they give auras), water overload AOE cleanse on each pulse, wash the pain away AOE cleanse on last pulse, attuning to water AOE cleanse, shouts AOE cleanse (with rune of the trooper), dodging AOE cleanses (burning and chilled only), and Elemental Bastion cleanses when it grants frost aura. Plus Lesser Cleansing Fire (passive), and Magnetic Wave each remove 3 conditions from the Tempest.

    I play that myself, and i am usually top cleanser. The issue is tho that scrapper converts conditions to boons, and that auras arent really making that much of a difference...

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Nice necroposting....Regardless...for me personally playing as a healscrapper is as exciting as watching paint dry.

  • supreme.3602supreme.3602 Member ✭✭✭

    In this current meta, if a Tempest is outcleansing a Scrapper, the latter is playing bad.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Druid is never used in blobbing wvw, firebrand has a different role, tempest fills cleansing role, so you pretty much compare apples to oranges

    Druid is a lost concept... needs some decent QoL from Anet.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    Given the necro of this thread I'm not sure if I've posted in it before, but I've posted in similar threads in the past and most of the support classes/builds actually have some aspect of support that they excel at. There's just a difference in how broad the appeal is.

    Now, that doesn't mean that some classes doesn't need some help. The Druid, for example, was never properly compensated for all the things taken away from it and the somewhat recent rework it saw was very lacklustre. It is still worse after the second glyph rework than it was before the first trait- and glyph rework. The specialisation still suffers heavily from Anet's decision to balance it around the existance of spirits in PvE. It had glyphs and traits gutted because of spirits, more or less, and spirit mechanics have very limited practical use in PvP. The staff is also still in a state of pre-nerf as a support weapon and alot of it's overreliance and management issues with Celestial form would go away if things like the auto mechanics on the staff changes to something more practical (like a no-target narrow but long cone akin to medkit but perhaps, well yeah, longer and thinner for some flavour). Reliable staff = reliable form.

    At the same time, that doesn't mean that there aren't things Druids excel at. Rangers also suffer heavily from that there is little use to stack them or a lack of learning- or intermediate roles for them. That means that the things you can do well with a Ranger (Druid) tend to require alot of experience (self-governance, leadership etc.) and even then you don't want to stack too many of them. So for someone comming in to play Ranger in WvW, there isn't much of a progression to learn in pickups. The things you can do is often too difficult for you. That conserves the low experience and reaffirms that those players are better off on other classes.

    The event of immob builds have given the class a bit broader role even if it remains off meta, but it's one of those things where the positives probably do not outweigh the negatives. It is quite a boring effect and problematic strength to build around. It would be much better if Anet just enhanced and put some spotlight on what the class already does well, doing something about the Celestial management and weapon skills I mentioned above. That wouldn't give Druids broad appeal either but it might help put the spotlight a bit more on what it can bring to the table and see a few more players using it in creative ways, not just some mossy old 8-year vets who remember what it did in HoT GvG's.

  • gavyne.6847gavyne.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    Purity of Purpose is the main issue with scrappers, it's too op to not carry 1 scrapper per party. Even if another class, such as Tempest, get anywhere near a scrapper's cleanse numbers, the scrapper is still better because all those cleanses are flipped into boons. A scrapper hits 1,000 cleanse? That's 1,000 boons the scrapper just gave to his/her party. Where as Tempest simply cleanse, there are no boons coming out of the cleanses. Not to mention scrapper's sneak gyro which is very valuable in WvW. But the main reason why scrappers are preferred over others is how their cleanses turn condi's into boons.

    There was a time when you could say "but Tempest can 10 target..." but that already got nerfed. An adjustment to Purity of Purpose is long overdue.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2021

    @gavyne.6847 said:
    An adjustment to Purity of Purpose is long overdue.

    Agreed, overall conversion and corruption should be rare, most sources of it now should just be cleanse and rip. Would help the feeling of overall spam alot, possibly help performance a fair bit and could hopefully lead to the conversions and corruptions that remain to feel powerful again.

    People are sometimes critical of the february balance initiative, but on a concept level I think most of the choices were good (just not implemented or followed-up well). The one choice they made that always did feel wrong though was how they approached the boon nerf with uptime. That just kept the spam but also made many boon-related things feel quite pointless, boring, not possible to build around and internally very malbalanced since some abilities were hit while others were not (so some abilities have their old uptimes and others just have a second or less). That left the boon treatment feeling about as placeholder as the CC/damage changes, even if nerfing boons and compounded control-and-damage abilities is a good idea in concept. The half-implementation just kept some problems, added a couple of new ones and then got riddled with balance issues. It would have been much better to look at cooldowns and sources instead.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane.

    These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane.

    These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

    Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences?

    The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Our wonderful systems team never did get around to part 2 and 3 of walking back some of the power creep.
    I suppose the influx of WvW participants has convinced them stand-in-a-clump meta is super popular.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane.

    These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

    Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences?

    The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage.

    By fairly recent I'm assuming you're talking by anet standards. So within a year? Are you implying the devs being happy with the balance means its balanced? Devs also seem to be happy with the amount of content they release for WvW.

    Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Minstrel builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running minstrel healers and you aren't, you lose.

    So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Minstrel however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.

    You either run minstrel gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the heals, the cleansing, the projectile hate, how tanky they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane.

    These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

    Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences?

    The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage.

    By fairly recent I'm assuming you're talking by anet standards. So within a year? Are you implying the devs being happy with the balance means its balanced? Devs also seem to be happy with the amount of content they release for WvW.

    Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Minstrel builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running minstrel healers and you aren't, you lose.

    So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Minstrel however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.
    You either run minstrel gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the heals, the cleansing, the projectile hate, how tanky they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

    Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Berserker builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running Berserker DPS and you aren't, you lose.

    So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Berserker however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.

    You either run berserker gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the damage, the strips, the projectile hate, how powerful they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

    ?????????????????????????????
    I can sort of appreciate your sentiment, but your argument doesn't amount to much when you can replace the primary keyword and it still be true.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necro has booncorrupt, i think its fair scrapper has condi conversion. Just remove condi conversion skills (apart from contemplation of purity) from firebrand and make it condi removal instead. Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @God.2708 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Lets be honest though, the real problem with these supports is minstrel gear stat. The amount of boon spam/cleansing/healing these pocket healers can dish out all whilst being mobile tanks is insane.

    These supports don't support the group they're in. They outright carry them.

    Did you just take every word you didn't like and threw them together in a couple of sentences?

    The gear makes them do two things, yes, tank and heal as heals don't crit or extend. That's similar to condition damage on classes that don't need crit or expertise to be effective. The gear doesn't give more buttons to push. Also, pocket healing is generally just when you put support around what used to be a solo roamer. In most common cases its simply a healer. Is the healing too much? The devs did what is still a fairly recent balance pass and seems happy with the balance between heals and damage.

    By fairly recent I'm assuming you're talking by anet standards. So within a year? Are you implying the devs being happy with the balance means its balanced? Devs also seem to be happy with the amount of content they release for WvW.

    Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Minstrel builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running minstrel healers and you aren't, you lose.

    So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Minstrel however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.
    You either run minstrel gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the heals, the cleansing, the projectile hate, how tanky they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

    Also you're right about condition damage. Blows my mind that condi herald is still not nerfed. But I can understand that condi herald is only good in certain situations like roaming. Berserker builds are so over-tuned that they break the game in any mode of WvW in which they are present. Zerging/Havoc/Roaming you name it. If you come across a group running Berserker DPS and you aren't, you lose.

    So yea condi builds are a plague that only infect the circles that I walk in which ill admit is roaming. I understand that nerfing them will make them even less viable in larger scale where power is still king for damage. So I appreciate the predicament despite my personal bias. Berserker however is a plague that has spread to every facet of this game mode. It dominates the meta in everything it touches.

    You either run berserker gear or you lose to the group that does. Skill becomes irrelevant. The boon spam, the damage, the strips, the projectile hate, how powerful they are. It just brings way too much to the table for the price of nothing.

    ?????????????????????????????
    I can sort of appreciate your sentiment, but your argument doesn't amount to much when you can replace the primary keyword and it still be true.

    .........

    What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer.

    So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small.

    So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    .........

    What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer.

    So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small.

    So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

    Two people spiking properly will eat through even dire or minstrel gear. If you think two (or any number of) people coordinating builds to work together should lose to two people simply playing... I don't think you understand how teamwork works.

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is the reason why i quitted WvW about a year ago. You guys are still at each other's neck calling for more nerfs to professions, runes and sigils. Omg xD

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @God.2708 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    .........

    What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer.

    So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small.

    So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

    Two people spiking properly will eat through even dire or minstrel gear. If you think two (or any number of) people coordinating builds to work together should lose to two people simply playing... I don't think you understand how teamwork works.

    you're going to need to timestamp that video.

    And sure I'm willing to concede that 2 experienced players in voice comms can gank a minstrel player that doesn't know what their buttons do. But fights with groups partied up that know what their skills do are decided by whichever group has the minstrel. I could link video's of players winning 1v1's with a single offhand weapon only. Doesn't mean its balanced for people to use one single hand weapon.

    @Mil.3562 said:
    This is the reason why i quitted WvW about a year ago. You guys are still at each other's neck calling for more nerfs to professions, runes and sigils. Omg xD

    Such is life when the game is balanced once every 4 months.

    EDIT: Tried looking through that video, too long.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    so does anyone have a reason to play heal rev over druid other then dwarf? ventari got massively nerfed and i'm pretty sure druid out heals them now, not to mention they don't have to worry about the crappy tablet and energy management.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

    It's more that it proc condition(s) on applying a condition than turning one boon into multiple condition. A lot of the necromancer's "tools design" are fondamentally dangerous, especially since it's tools are mostly geared toward PvP situations. Traits proc'ing conditions when applying another condition are amongst those dangerous design (I mean, let's imagine that I corrupt stability as a reaper/curse/spite necromancer. This lead me to apply fear that will apply chill, shiver of dread, and torment, insidious disruption. Chill will then lead to 1 bleeds, deathly chill, and 3 vuln, bitter chill. Basically, you turn stability into fear and gain 4 condi as bonus for a 5 condi combo.)

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @God.2708 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    .........

    What? Berserker? Of all the stats to draw comparisons to that's the one you chose? Your point is any group not running berserker gear will lose to groups that are running zerk?? Ill humour you. Tell me, assuming 2 duo roamer groups are equally skilled, 2 condi heralds vs 2 berserker heralds. Who wins? Or hell one berserker herald and one condi herald against 2 condi heralds? Spoiler alert the condi builds win. Because condi is typically stronger roaming. Despite the fact that berserker herald is more than viable it just isn't going to stand up to condi stats like dire/trailblazer.

    So..... im not really sure how you think berserker substitutes for minstrel at all. Its all too common that a group that is running zerk will lose to groups running dire, cele or other gear stats. But you throw a minstrel support class into that 2v2 [EDIT: Or any size fight to be honest] and whichever duo [or group] thats running it now becomes un-killable. All other gear stats are now irrelevant. Because like i said above no gear/build comes close to rivaling how much a minsterl support class brings to the table in ANY WvW related fight large or small.

    So you can edit my post to replace minstrel with any gear stat. Personally I would have gone with Marauders/trailblazer/dire etc as those gear stats are usually more powerful than straight zerk. But none of them, not even trailblazer which is an abomination in its own right comes close to affecting/breaking the game as much as minstrel gear does.

    Two people spiking properly will eat through even dire or minstrel gear. If you think two (or any number of) people coordinating builds to work together should lose to two people simply playing... I don't think you understand how teamwork works.

    I have seen time and again plenty of my server's people spike a fully booned minstrel down to 20% hp.
    Edit: i mean solo spike, not even a coordinated spike from 2 or more.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    so does anyone have a reason to play heal rev over druid other then dwarf? ventari got massively nerfed and i'm pretty sure druid out heals them now, not to mention they don't have to worry about the crappy tablet and energy management.

    Both druid and ventari rev are really for enthusiasts only. But still, druid is complete garbo in terms of healing and support in WvW. Herald can still have its moments in zergs - ranged healing and condi cleanse, projectile denial. ---all are still good even after nerfs. And the tablet isn't crappy. It's the person behind the tablet who isn't so good at energy management. Just saying.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    I think scrapper is ok to be biggest healer, as he don't have acces to quickness,alac, or other thinks like spirits or temporary dmg increse for team(guard), not even team barriers (necro), aslo scrapper med kit 1 don't heal himself

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Booncorrupt is still a thing and several nec skills turn one boon into multiple condies.

    It's more that it proc condition(s) on applying a condition than turning one boon into multiple condition. A lot of the necromancer's "tools design" are fondamentally dangerous, especially since it's tools are mostly geared toward PvP situations. Traits proc'ing conditions when applying another condition are amongst those dangerous design (I mean, let's imagine that I corrupt stability as a reaper/curse/spite necromancer. This lead me to apply fear that will apply chill, shiver of dread, and torment, insidious disruption. Chill will then lead to 1 bleeds, deathly chill, and 3 vuln, bitter chill. Basically, you turn stability into fear and gain 4 condi as bonus for a 5 condi combo.)

    If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2021

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

    Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scraper also is one of the strongest boon strip in the game atm due to throw mine there relay is no other reason to play tempest atm.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

    Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

    Mind sharing a build? Cause condireaper lacks the tankiness of core or the corrupts of scourge

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    If you run the aforementioned traits, that reaper isnt really useful. Especially against a blob. Unless you play a condi reaper. Which is pretty bad.

    Condi reaper isn't much worse than condi core or condi scourge. It's just less popular than it's power variant.

    Mind sharing a build? Cause condireaper lacks the tankiness of core or the corrupts of scourge

    Reaper isn't less tanky than core, especially when playing condi since playing condi basically mean playing scepter (furthermore while slightly inferior in LF management, the reaper is superior to core in damage reduction and sustain). As for scourge having more boon corrupt, that's arguable, sure you can say that scourge is the only one with a heal and elite skill that corrupt but does it really make a significant difference? I don't think so. The only unknown is whether one is willing to drop power for condi as a reaper since power make better use of the shroud.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    in the end, firebrand is just the best allround-healer. you never do top cleanse as FB, bc its more important to keep everyone alive and with ageis, stab, boons etc... firebrand has more dodges since two weapons as well (sigil of energy switcherama)

    but yeah, support scrapper is a great healer and esp cleanser and has reflects/superspeed/cc as well

  • Probably given the recent nerfs to support tempest, I'd say it's optimal to have a support firebrand (mostly for boons but also for healing and cleanses) and a support scrapper (for big healing, lots of condi conversion and access to stealth) in each party. Then fill up the rest of the squad with heralds, scourges, spellbreakers, chronomancers and possibly other classes depending.

    Spellbreaker is arguably still best with a support build in public squads because powerbreaker usually has a pretty hard time doing its job when fighting bigger zergs. However, the actual support it provides is pretty meaningsless compared to what scrapper and firebrand do for their parties. The class is pretty much there for some CC and boonstrip with the addition of some support abilities.

    That being said, I find it a bit strange how they nerf the weaker one of the two secondary support classes while not touching the already stronger one. It's almost as if they are actively trying to minimise the class variety in WvW.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jarni.7402 said:

    That being said, I find it a bit strange how they nerf the weaker one of the two secondary support classes while not touching the already stronger one. It's almost as if they are actively trying to minimise the class variety in WvW.

    A hundred times this^