Toughness should be a deterant to conditions — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Toughness should be a deterant to conditions

Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited July 17, 2020 in WvW

In the old days we didnt have issues with condi because food was 40% condi duration reduction and runes was 40% condi duration reduction.

Remember the days of safron bread?

Maybe return anti condi gear to these setup again or cap condi. :)

Also condi right now has little to no counter gear wise.

Vitality is fine but, the amount of hp damage you get is literally like receiving a warriors hundred blades on full zerk with max quickness

Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

<1

Comments

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Sure, if you delete vitality and cleanses from the game.

    Please read the post :)

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @geist.4126 said:
    And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

    How is this related to toughness and condition?

    @rng.1024 said:
    We literally can craft a sigil that cleanse 3 condis ever 10 seconds for free - how on earth is conditions an issue?

    This is definitely an l2p issue, as anyone who do sPvP will tell you it's easily dealt with here. If you get hit by a 2 people condibomb, you should go down no question about it if you don't have an oh no button. If your issue is with a specific spec, then post it in the profession forum to get pointers and practice fighting against it often. Usually it's either your hard counter or your build needs improvement.

    WvW always was a PvE sandbox, we live and die by fractal/raid balance.

    How is this related to toughness?

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Besides support ministrels every one else is condi bunker mostly burn based.

    I guess is time to test a perma resistance bunker(2k power,3k toughness, hight vit, perma resistance large group stacking) setup, maybe the condi noobs will QQ and then we can say... that's l2p issue.

    @Sovereign.1093 the condition issue is the burn bursting(burn is overperforming we all know that)... thats what needs to get adressed while some also say 8-10k burn tick is balance(they are being carried ofc they dont want it removed)...

    Small note:
    Outside burn, imo only perma daze builds and CC need to be observed for future changes, but ATM Anet needs to focus on burn ticks check up.
    macro + package editing mesmers(fore sure some do this) need to be fixed, but the fix for it, i fear that would gut the class :( so its a hard fix classes that are easilly to macroable.

  • Moradorin.6217Moradorin.6217 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    In the old days we didnt have issues with condi because food was 40% condi duration reduction and runes was 40% condi duration reduction.

    Remember the days of safron bread?

    Maybe return anti condi gear to these setup again or cap condi. :)

    Also condi right now has little to no counter gear wise.

    Vitality is fine but, the amount of hp damage you get is literally like receiving a warriors hundred blades on full zerk with max quickness

    Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

    Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

    Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

    Ok so ppl say this stuff from time to time. Basically, what you need to do is use more than one build or modify your build to integrate some condi cleansing into it, usually at the cost of some damage output. Some players choose to bring allot of cleanse and have no problem with condi, others dont and die much faster to condi than those who prepare to deal with it..

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Superior rune of Orr: 25% condi duration reduction
    Various foods: 20% condi duration reduction

    I mean, seriously, you need more than that? With all the cleansing utilities and sigils and traits, too?

  • Dagger.2035Dagger.2035 Member ✭✭✭

    Vitality should be thought of as the primary defensive stat and it provides the best defense against both Power and Condition damage. Toughness and Healing Power should be considered minor defensive stats which give you more sustain over time.

    If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

    If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

    This change serves two purposes. First, it simplifies damage calculations on the server since you don’t need the enemy player’s stats to calculate the damage. Second, it allows you to see how much damage you will receive since high Condition damage builds will apply more stacks.

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  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

    However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

    Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

  • Korgov.7645Korgov.7645 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

    However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

    Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

    Condi is nigh useless against large groups due shared cleansing. Perhaps cleanses could be made self only, which would give room tuning down condi damage in overall.

    Even in small scale conditions rarely get all their ticks. This makes Expertise less valuable and drives condi builds to use Dire only - the tankiness wins due attrition.

    Toning down the sigil and rune would be a no brainer.

    Then looking at how most cleanse skills have power creeped to cleanse multiple conditions. Making them cleanse only a single condition would allow to make each condition more significant and allow reducing the rate of condi applications. The choice of what and when to apply/cleanse would make the condi gameplay more dramatic over the current spamfest.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    no.
    you shouldn't be able to stack condi vital and tough tho all on one stat combo.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Korgov.7645Korgov.7645 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    no.
    you shouldn't be able to stack condi vital and tough tho all on one stat combo.

    What else would condi player have on their gear? Critical chance that would turn conditions uncleansable? Ferocity that would multiply condition durations?

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ok ppl seem to misunderstand. Condi only needs condi damage to kill. And there is effectively no counter stat to it unlike power where If your toughness is high and your vit, you can tank long.

    A person running Pvt if hit with condi will go down fast.

    Unlike a person running dire will not go down fast from power damage.

    It's not about the skill itself etc or the rune or sigils or food. This is about making defense against condi more than just vitality

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    But there is defense against condi. It is called condi cleanse. Learn to use it, slot it, and condi is not really a problem.

    Generally I would agree that the difference between how condi works and how power works and how to defend against them, is a problem that should be tackled in the design of things instead of through skills.

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  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Scrapper, aura tempest , and condi mallyx rev exist (Permeating Pestilence , resistance from Pain absorption) as well as scourges (barrier and condi transfer via staff).

    There's some overperforming builds but conditions in general aren't that strong in a large group. In lower playercount scenarios you might be able to get burning to stick with firebrand ; I'm surprised permeating wrath hasn't had a small ICD added similar to dhuumfire when traited with scourge. Guardian doesn't have as many cover conditions so that is probably why in addition to lower condition damage if not running power+precision due to trait conversions.

    Someone mentioned condi thief, but that is more to do with PvP than WvW and has very little burst outside of thieves guild / venoms after deadly ambition was changed a while back. Condi mirage (one dodge meme) and druid also aren't that amazing. Outside staff or axe ambush/pistol Phantasmal Duelist for mirage or bonfire/traps in the case of druid if they run torch offhand the condis ramp up slowly.

    A person running dire loses duration already, so ultimately you're talking about condition ticks from burning or torment (while moving) since poison and bleeding need quite a few stacks to reach the same potency. Boon corruption converts aegis to burning and regen to poison so any well of corruption type of coordinated bomb is going to skew towards having conditions.

    Condition damage scaling per stack , per second:

    • Burning = (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 = 363.5 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 425.5 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 15% bonus from Amplified Wrath)
    • Torment, while moving in PvP/WvW = (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 = 166.8 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 202.8 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 10% bonus from Acolyte of Torment)
    • Poison = (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 = 123.5 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 147.5 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 25% bonus from Poison Master or 15% from Putrid Defense)
    • Bleeding = (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 = 112 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 136 per second at 1900 condition damage (before Hidden Barbs 33% bonus or Heartpiercer 25% bonus)
  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe there needs to be a protection vs condi dmg a -33% dmg taken from condis. I do not think toughness should counter 2 dmg types effects power and condi dmg but there for sure room to add in counter condi dmg effects.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    It's not about the skill itself etc or the rune or sigils or food. This is about making defense against condi more than just vitality

    So why don't all the other ways you can itemize and build against conditions count?

    If the answer is "because it's not a stat" then I feel your being way too narrow in your thought process when it comes to the options the game gives you for builds and counters.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Ok ppl seem to misunderstand. Condi only needs condi damage to kill. And there is effectively no counter stat to it unlike power where If your toughness is high and your vit, you can tank long.

    A person running Pvt if hit with condi will go down fast.

    Unlike a person running dire will not go down fast from power damage.

    Which makes littke sense. A person running pvt vs a person running dire will go down in the same time to condi (similar vitality) and power (similar toughness).

    And you're missing the most crucial aspect of condi - time does not necessarily stack damage. 2 players doing 5000 damage each will double their damage full stop. Two players doing 500 condi damage per second for 10s each may be completely ineffective at doubling their damage as a cleanse will remove it all - even when its only ticked for a 1000 damage. The more players you add, the worse it becomes.

    There is a reason why condi is almost only effective solo or 2 man and as soon as groups become 3+ they revert to standard zerg meta with power dps+minstrel healers.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Hot Boy.7138Hot Boy.7138 Member ✭✭✭

    I wouldn't have agreed with this back in 2013, but the way the game is now. It actually makes more sense for toughness to affect condition damage.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Condi were less a problem also because power could still pressure enough and kill.
    Now all power base of skills and traits have been nerfed, trailblazer/apothecary cancers can win againt multiple targets weathered. (See bunker necro, bunker signet tempest/weaver, herald, etc)
    Pvp it starts to be balanced again.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    Yes, the condi spam is strong and have a few banner wars and you got your insta kill of downs. Just so easy to do it now

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2020

    If toughness was buffed, this would make trailblazer even more effective, and put grieving or other offensive condi stats at a disadvantage vs them. This would just enforce the bunker meta. It doesn't really help that toughness is a luxury for most small scale/roaming builds too if you are going power....

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People also do realise of a change like this came in the amount of cleanse available in the game would greatly be decreased and they would still die right?

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    I hate to be that guy, but I tend to start skimming through the post whenever I see the following line:

    Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge.

    Because it isn't true. For one, condi skills have a power component on them that figures significantly into their overall damage. There are reasons why griever and viper exist, and it is because with equal amounts of power and precision, the direct damage component hits really hard. Second, condition duration is a second stat that is really important. Asserting that condi duration is meaningless is to assert that all damaging conditions have no drawbacks to being 40% shorter than they would be otherwise, and that all of the disabling conditions have no meaningful effect if they last longer. The only time I ever managed to 1v3 and win was on a viper Herald during HoT, and if I didn't have so much up-front damage I would've been pummeled.

    Third, if we assume that condition duration is meaningless, then we'd also have to consider that the vast majority of power damage comes from the power stat. 1000 points of precision only increases the damage output by around 25% of what you're already doing, making it useless without power on top of it. You add 1000 points of ferocity on top of that somehow, and then your crit modifier goes to 60% bonus... of what power already gives you. That, too, is not a lot. Consider this, if you hit for 1 half the time, and then hit for 2.16 the other half of the time, then power is going to account for 63% of that damage (2/3.16), and the other two inflated stats account for 37%. Predicated on the assertion from the second point, we would have no choice but to conclude that power builds also only need one stat, because that is where most of their damage comes from. This would put Dire and Soldier on equal grounds of each other, because they both do the same thing.

    So whenever I see the above line, I just sort of tune out the remaining suggestions. They all started from the wrong premises, so their conclusions aren't going to be any better.

    EDIT: Weird. I did the math wrong on the second part, but it comes out to be almost the same. Instead of taking the weighted average, I just added them together. The weighted average should look like this:

    Normal Damage half of the time: 1 x 50% = 0.5
    Crit chance + crit damage = 2.16 x 50% = 1.08
    Weighted Average: 1.58
    Total Power contribution: (1 x 50% + 1 x 50%) / 1.58 = 63%
    Total Crit Contribution: (0 x 50% + 1.16 x 50%) / 1.58 = 37%

    I always find it funny when the wrong steps somehow lead to the same answer. Apparently, when dealing with two numbers, unintentionally doubling those numbers and their weighted average leads to the same proportions. Leaving in the top part for posterity.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    Condition damage has no power component :/

    Griever etc works for builds that use both power and condi

    An easy test is make 2 tunes Duke it out. 1 all dire 1 all Pvt. See which one kills the other fast.

    Or even just all dire and all zerk

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

    However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

    Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

    Its the hard way to tweak better balance in small scale, but since everyone is bunker condi and bunker support the damage tick denial wouldnt matter much IMO.
    Conditions were always this strong in smaller scale palyers just had better low effort damage output before, just like condi rev was always great but there were esyer builds to carry and more efective than it before the damage patch.
    The talk about condi vs armor isnt anything new..

    @Doug.4930
    yeap, that's the problem, in larger gameplay it isnt much of and issue since out of 70-80 15-20 are sracpers and the other 25-30 are FB (our server timezone doesnt have that number of players), we are 10 players max at coms fighting bloby full condi bunkers servers.
    In small gameplay our scrappers can catch 400(minin per each 2-5min fight)-600+ condi cleanses just for some minuts, ive seen close to 1k condi cleanses on a 8ish(maybe less) minute fight, and im talking from 10-15 players.

    Conditions are OP in small scale, yes that's for sure, and Anet know it how broken it can reach... but needs to be taken slowlly, burn IMO should be the condition that needs urgent fix.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Condition damage has no power component :/

    Griever etc works for builds that use both power and condi

    An easy test is make 2 tunes Duke it out. 1 all dire 1 all Pvt. See which one kills the other fast.

    Or even just all dire and all zerk

    Sure. Try a dire core engineer with for example rifle and all turrets using something like alchemy 3/3/1, inventions 1/2/3, tools 1/1/1 , vs a zerk metabattle daredevil and see who kills the other fast.

    Oh and you are NOT allowed to say "but you're intentionally gimping the engineer by choosing those things!". Because that would be admitting gear stats isnt everything. And you're only talking about gear stats. So dire should still win the dps race, right? We're not even talking about an outmanned fight! 1v1 my dire engineer above must win.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Delete "condi damage" stat from gear ;)

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    Delete "condi damage" stat from gear ;)

    Hardcoded condition damage values like we had in gw1?
    That actually would be interesing, to see the old health pip degen back, but our health pools are way bigger now :.

    would be interesting to see how tuned could the degen pip efect needed to be changed so it would be same efectiveness in large and small scale, if this system removes the gap efectiveness and finds a midle place i would bet on it, but this would be to mcuh work changing condition mechanics.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I run carrion amulet in PvP and condi whiners still whine about condi. What gives?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I run carrion amulet in PvP and condi whiners still whine about condi. What gives?

    I've had a guildie running power get whispered condi noob so yeah.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Condition damage has no power component :/

    Griever etc works for builds that use both power and condi

    An easy test is make 2 tunes Duke it out. 1 all dire 1 all Pvt. See which one kills the other fast.

    Or even just all dire and all zerk

    Sure. Try a dire core engineer with for example rifle and all turrets using something like alchemy 3/3/1, inventions 1/2/3, tools 1/1/1 , vs a zerk metabattle daredevil and see who kills the other fast.

    Oh and you are NOT allowed to say "but you're intentionally gimping the engineer by choosing those things!". Because that would be admitting gear stats isnt everything. And you're only talking about gear stats. So dire should still win the dps race, right? We're not even talking about an outmanned fight! 1v1 my dire engineer above must win.

    Sure a dire stat renegade on bow vs that dd. :3

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is currently easier to craft a build that can tank condi damage for ages than a build that can do the samge with power damage.

    Condi damage can be oppressive, but at the same time there are options to basically nullify this type of damage.

    I don't see any reason why toughness should affect incoming condi damage. That would be a rework of a basic mechanic and lead to deleting condi damage from the game.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    :3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    :3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

    I did directly answer you question: Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

  • Fearless.3569Fearless.3569 Member ✭✭✭

    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    :3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

    I did directly answer you question: Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

    Yes I agree. :)

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    :3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

    How silly of everyone to question the need for these changes rather than simply accepting your premise as a universal truth and green lighting your idea!

    Of course. :)

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    My English isn't good. You put the right perspective. :)

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

    Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    This topic comes up every 3 days and is meaningless without video evidence to analyze why a situation plays out the way it does.

    Damage based condition builds are not overpowered in WvW. They are strong in 1v1's where their tankiness and sustained pressure plays into their favor, and they scale back dramatically in outnumbered situations where opponents can alternate the pressure and burn your sustain down since most condi builds are somewhat low mobility. They have options in large groups, which is good. But a large group made of solely condi damage dealers would fare poorly against a same-sized group with a more balanced or power oriented approach.

    There does not need to be new boons or adjustments to current boons to 'counter' condis. Giving a few more options to obtaining resistance might be acceptable. There does not need to be adjustments or changes to stats. Trailblazers isn't any better than a same stat power armor with ++Power ++Vitality +Prec +Toughness would be in terms of damage dealt and survivability (A stat set like that WOULD be pretty nifty though Anet, hint hint).

    On a side note, does +condition duration work additively with -condi duration or multiplicatively? IE if someone has +100% condition duration and I have -20% do they have 180% condi duration or 160%?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    On a side note, does +condition duration work additively with -condi duration or multiplicatively? IE if someone has +100% condition duration and I have -20% do they have 180% condi duration or 160%?

    Afaik -duration is based on incoming duration. If the enemy is a full trailblazer set with +100% duration and you have -50% duration, its eqvivalent to the enemy having +0% condi duration. -75% would be the enemy having -50%. The same goes for damage. There is a reason some particular bunker builds can nearly nullify conditions.

    But I havent really bothered looking into it so may be wrong.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I run carrion amulet in PvP and condi whiners still whine about condi. What gives?

    Because you killed them.

    Someone died because they tried to go after me and got killed by 3 other players. They then blabbed to me about being 4v1 despite the fact that they initiated. It's not my fault they have tunnel vision.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2020

    Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

    What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

    Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭✭

    And the more toughness you have, more buff your toon's body becames.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

    What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

    Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

    This is a great idea ^^

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    Vitality should be thought of as the primary defensive stat and it provides the best defense against both Power and Condition damage. Toughness and Healing Power should be considered minor defensive stats which give you more sustain over time.

    If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

    If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

    This change serves two purposes. First, it simplifies damage calculations on the server since you don’t need the enemy player’s stats to calculate the damage. Second, it allows you to see how much damage you will receive since high Condition damage builds will apply more stacks.

    Dude you should make this its own thread in general. This needs to be seen.
    Currently the passive burn applying specks are confusing it might be power or condition speck, but it just popped 5 to 10 burns on you, if its power it is ok to leave them if its not you cleanse it or you die.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    :3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

    You can't talk about stats and then omit everything else. Builds don't revolve only around stats but also around skills, talents and runes/sigils.

    If you want to only advocate for a change in stats as balance to condition damage and toughness, you are automatically balancing around only part of what makes a build in this game. In short: your analysis and approach is already faulty and incomplete at its core.

    Not the issue I bring. Just the stat.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

    Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

    :3 you must not have been hit by soj from a pure condi build yet.

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

    What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

    Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

    There's no cleansing stat though. :/


    Anyhu will try to record a vid about condi. As I've been busy lately reading comics.

    I'm getting a little bored at the moment so, I may update these things once a day or so.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.