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  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

    Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

    THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

    Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

    Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

    THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

    Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

    Running full trailblazer fire weaver my burns deal about 340 dps per stack. How many stacks before you can call that "burst" damage? The passive application people frequently complain about like primordial stance, lava skin, and fire aura all have 1-2s duration on burn application. Hitting 10+ burn stacks only happens with setup and only after wearing down an opponent's defenses (and they can still stunbreak, cleanse, invuln, heal, or resistance their way out of it!). This is not "burst" unless you are a potato, in which case power will burst you far quicker anyway!

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @Fearless.3569 said:
    Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

    When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

    Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

    THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

    Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

    Running full trailblazer fire weaver my burns deal about 340 dps per stack. How many stacks before you can call that "burst" damage? The passive application people frequently complain about like primordial stance, lava skin, and fire aura all have 1-2s duration on burn application. Hitting 10+ burn stacks only happens with setup and only after wearing down an opponent's defenses (and they can still stunbreak, cleanse, invuln, heal, or resistance their way out of it!). This is not "burst" unless you are a potato, in which case power will burst you far quicker anyway!

    To illustrate the point:

    Look at how much damage Mur deals. He is chunking my health repeatedly for 5-6k crits (and this is considered an underpowered spec, mind you!)! It's only because I absorb some of those shots with barrier from stone resonance that I'm not dead. I've applied some conditions here and there, but he's cleansing pretty effectively and you can see I am only chipping small amounts of health away from him despite the fact that he is almost certainly running berserker amulet.

    It's only when I catch him off guard with a nice stun which he apparently has no stunbreak for and then land a full pyrovortex for the finish (Note: This is the same way a power build typically finishes a fight!). Even then, he takes about as much damage over 3 seconds of stun (the third tick lands for 3.1k damage on an 8 stack burn) as I take from a single one of his crits. If he had a stunbreak handy, he would have taken negligible damage, disengaged, cleansed/healed, and went back to ripping my face off!

    Mur is an opponent who is out of my league and I got lucky here. But it shows that against skilled opponents condi (even the notorious burning!) is really not bursty at all. I know some builds are problematic, but this "hurr durr condi too bursty" stuff is just plain nonsense.

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    "Take more effort to be good". Thanks, but no. And how many roaming or zerg classes run Condi right now? Rev and Necro with Guardian as Burst Condi Option which shouldn't even be a thing when you bring cleanse. Every other professions is far better on Power builds.

    WSR is the only server where people call in /t for help when dueling.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Momekic.8603 said:

    @geist.4126 said:
    And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

    I dont understand how people can actually believe this since the big power nerf patch.

    What reality do you live in? Condi builds are currently way stronger than power builds.

    If built properly all condition builds are just faceroll easy. Power builds take a lot more effort to actually be good.

    There’s a couple outlier power builds that are strong, but overall condition builds take the cake right now.

    Condi is easier to counter. My worst matchups 1v1 are power builds and the ones that run condi I can just swap runes and auto counter. I can't do that with power.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

    What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

    Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

    There's no cleansing stat though. :/

    but theres cleansing

  • Metzie.3012Metzie.3012 Member ✭✭
    edited July 19, 2020

    As it should be, basically, equivalent to toughness:

    Toughness = direct damage (reduce)
    Resistance (as an example) = damage to condition (reduce)

    Additional note: By this I do not mean the boon "resistance"

    Considering this, of course, some (or many) adjustments would have to be made, but this would open up completely new possibilities and scope - whether sigils, runes, boons, active or passive class skills, etc.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 :

    Cleanse is unique mechanic to handle conditions.

    Toughness is unique mechanic to handle power damage.

    Just because they are different doesn’t mean that power builds have it harder. I can burst massive damage on power builds I could never achieve on a condition build.

    Cleanse is, for better or worse, why you can’t have toughness mitigate both. Anet designed it that way. If you think you need more cleanse ask for it. But remember that the more cleanse exists the more conditions need to do burst damage. Otherwise they can’t do any damage and condition builds become completely unviable.

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  • hobotnicax.7918hobotnicax.7918 Member ✭✭✭

    Toughness should not be a counter to condi. It would buff condi bunkers as well.

    Reducing condi durations, condi stacks or even making skills apply only 1 or 2 conditions max (instead of 3 + additional from traits, sigils etc).
    This way condi application becomes a tactical thing, instead of like it's right now when it's a spam fest with little to no skill involved.

    For the people in this thread that try to defend condition damage as is right now, I'd just like to express my deepest sympathy for your loss of touch with reality.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    @Metzie.3012 said:
    As it should be, basically, equivalent to toughness:

    Toughness = direct damage (reduce)
    Resistance (as an example) = damage to condition (reduce)

    Additional note: By this I do not mean the boon "resistance"

    Considering this, of course, some (or many) adjustments would have to be made, but this would open up completely new possibilities and scope - whether sigils, runes, boons, active or passive class skills, etc.

    Mmm add a new stat. Yes :) i can see this happening. This way vit works both ways = mitigate on power x condi.

    Then toughness can be for power damage and a resistant stat for condi. Still wouldn't it be simpler that toughness does that too. :3

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    condis are so easily purged, there's no need to have any further mitigation. Depending upon the build, they can be totally worthless. Furthermore, we have condi-to-boon conversion (from scrappers) that make heavy condis a liability without sufficient boon strip.

    In addition, you can easily stack tanky stats with condition damage (since condis only rely upon condition damage and expertise). Power builds on the other hand rely on power, precision, and ferocity. That's only one more stat, but it has a significant impact on creating optimized builds.

    Providing another mitigation to condition damage would make condis even less relevant in wvw than they are now.

    UNRELATED: a more interesting conversation is tying "energy generation" to a survival stat like "vitality". This means your dodges would be coupled to your stat distribution, making pure glass builds that much glassier. Right now dodges are a get out of free card no matter the build.

  • Lucifer.2865Lucifer.2865 Member
    edited July 20, 2020

    OK , The way he stated the Caption of the thread may be not the right way to say it , but what he said in his post is understandable . Some PVP players saying Condi is not a problem just get good and get condi clear traits and its not even burst that much , bro PvP have has one amulet that has toughness and Vit with condi , that is cele and its not even as strong stats as the normal cele gears in general , then pvp has 5 amulets which has vit and condi togather and No Amulet stats has expertise on it , so please don't compare your PvP dmg with WvW , showing clip that you are getting rekt by power in pvp as a condi class means nothing in wvw . And wvw players who said that condi doesn't matter i agree with you to a certain extent , you are a comped up group , have FB scrapper tempest to clear condi's plus shout warrior to top it off yea sure, its pretty useless , now problem arise when you are not comped up , or trying to take small scale fights with uneven numbers or hell trying to roam or sometimes even outnumber zerg fights . Try fighting a Trailblazer+apothecary trapper druid or a traiblazer or grieving and trailblazer mix whatever condi rev with tormenting runes , or boring cele weaver . putting a cleansing sigil on one weapon will give you 3 condi clears yes , but we are in a stage of the game specially in wvw , where a proper condi class can put 2 times more condi's on you from how much condi you can clear every sec. We always say nerf condi nerf condi , may be its time to look at stat combo instead. Think it like this , now a days to get a 8k backstab as a thief or 8k Eviscerate as a warrior or 8k worldly impact you need to heavy investment into power precision and ferocity plus you need the right power runes that gives you offensive stats other wise it not achievable and not only that you also need right buffs sometimes enemies needs to be below a certain % of their active HP, but to get a 8k burn ticks as a guard with one button press may be 2 or 4k confusion and torment as a mesmer with 3 buttons or 7k poison ticks as a thief using steal just steal, they dont need to sacrifice neither toughness nor vit, what I am trying to say yes berserker Arc Divider is broken but its also hella easy to kill it, its very easy to kite them , on the other hand base condi necro can nuke you hard and can have over 30k effective HP plus over 1.8k toughness , Condi Rev can literally 1v3 and cannot die , i tested it and its disgusting . Stats won't matter if the condi's stayedhow it use to be in past , when they uncapped it and make more skills that can put out loads of condi thats the moment these stats becomes so much stronger. Imagine making a wanderer stats( Power Toughness vit concentration) power Theif or Rev or warrior or ranger and nuke people with it , where you might never get a crit or may be get a crit like once or twice in every 20s, then imagine making condi build using trailblazer and see what perform better. i am not saying remove dire trailblazer plague doctor from the game or change the stat combo sure keep it , but then either give power class something similar power vit precision ferocity or bring Demolisher stats from pvp as an actual stat , but then we will have the problem where game will become very tanky than it is .. Think its about time Devs should look into the stat combos in wvw , like they did with PvP few years back when they removed some amulets from PvP .. I know few might agree few might not, but i dont think condi itself is the problem no, its the stats they have at their disposal when they build a condi build ..

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2020

    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Maybe we should be thinking reduce or step back instead of moving forward

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Uh, that's called armor.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Uh, that's called armor.

    Talking about stats here not the armor

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How many times do I gotta say the only major problem with condi is Dire/TB and some of the specific mechanics surrounding a few select builds.
    A bigger problem than the damage alone is control conditions are potent and get extended durations as well, which matters a lot on effects like Weakness and Immobilize, which should be the grounds for how condi builds delay fights and sustain into incoming damage.

    We don't need even more RPS gameplay. We just need to have full tank builds not pumping out asinine damage and control effects/sustain (as how most condi trait lines are configured due to their DoT nature) all at the same time.

    Remove Dire/TB and the problems almost entirely go away.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Uh, that's called armor.

    Talking about stats here not the armor

    Armor is a stat which is the combination of toughness and vitality.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Uh, that's called armor.

    Talking about stats here not the armor

    Armor is a stat which is the combination of toughness and vitality.

    Technically Armor has its own individual value that is applied to your toughness and is unrelated to vitality. The difference classes have difference base values of armor depending on rarity of gear. The only way to increase it beyond that base value is by equipping a shield.

    Perhaps ironically, getting rid of your armor would not really effect a pure condition builds ability to damage you, since it ignores toughness.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.

    Uh, that's called armor.

    Talking about stats here not the armor

    Armor is a stat which is the combination of toughness and vitality.

    Check zerker stat and Pvt on their armor attribute

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zojja's_Doublet

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ahamid's_Doublet

    Armor def attribute isn't affected by vit or toughness.

    Both are 330

    Now toughness adds to that.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • @Sovereign.1093 said:

    Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

    That would not work well (withholding the details what exactly). But also u can always increase vitality instead to do almost what you want (kinda "inverted logic"). I find it a nice theory-crafting challenge to find the perfect balance between toughness & health every time a larger balance patch hits.

    But I agree there "could" be some more condition counters. After the "condi v1 meta", the dev team increased condi counters & availability for everyone. But when this "condi v2 meta" went live, the devs nerfed all condi counters first (they prolly wanted to greatly increase the "player vs player" death statistics, with little ways to counter it).

    I personally dont find condi to be an overwhelming problem at the present really. Just gotta tweak your own custom touches on builds to survive.

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  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Armor is the sum of the defense value (light, medium, heavy) and toughness.

    The defense value depends on the level of the character and the gear quality. At level 80 for ascended gear it is:

    • light armor: 967
    • medium armor: 1118
    • heavy armor: 1271

    Base toughness is 1000 at level 80 so that a level 80 character has 1967, 2118 or 2271 armor.

    Vitality has nothing to do with armor. It increases the health pool by 10 hp for each point - for example: +100 vita leads to +1000 hp.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    Dont think the condi dmg or application is the problem now, people should be wise enough to bring condi clears or at least have a good idea what's going on, issue is the added toughness/vitality. They shouldn't have both. Trying to even land power melee presure on a condi player with 25k health 3300 armour is the main issue I see.

    What else should a condi stat have If we take away either toughness/vitality? None, mix and match like power does, some power builds take mix of cavalier/berserker/marauders if they want extra toughness/vitality

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Dont think the condi dmg or application is the problem now, people should be wise enough to bring condi clears or at least have a good idea what's going on, issue is the added toughness/vitality. They shouldn't have both. Trying to even land power melee presure on a condi player with 25k health 3300 armour is the main issue I see.

    What else should a condi stat have If we take away either toughness/vitality? None, mix and match like power does, some power builds take mix of cavalier/berserker/marauders if they want extra toughness/vitality

    The issue is that condis have an additional avoidance mechanism which is cleansing. For defense against power attacks, you have total armor, maximum health pool, dodges, and heals/regens. For condi you have all of that and then cleanses too. It's really a less effective build to go pure condi. So is it really an issue that they can also roll with anti-power stats at the same time?

  • ShadowCatz.8437ShadowCatz.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

    However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

    Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

    The main problem isn't condition damage by itself, but how it is common to hit multi target (AoE) vs more limited cleave (up to three from one skill use) or single direct target (power). In WvW you will often want to be able to fight more then one player and that is the reason why condition damage is more common.

    Power where meant to be stronger as it don't need a wind up as most condition types are taking their time to actually hurt (burn damage is the exception) or need target activate skill (confusion) or move (Torment). Poison and bleed are targeting health pool and is more depending on how fast you have access to heals or regenerate healing (healing over time which is the opposite of bleeding).

    Damage from power do also variate depending how often you can hit (each hit is random from Precision and maxed from Ferocity). High damage from power maxed out combo (P/F) and boons at max stack can take out enough health for most players with one or two hits vs conditions where it needs time or action (target need to increase damage which is out of attackers control - that is why most Mirages utility skills movement based) to max out.

    Toughness is meant to reduce damage from burst (power) and should not be mixed into anti-condition damage as that in turn would make condition damage almost meaningless for small groups or single player to even fight in WvW.

    What @Sovereign.1093 complain about seem to be when there is larger group fighting and that is another story. Vulnerability (condition) increase both damage from power and condition damage, Might do the same but from attacker and there are a lot of other condition and boon combination that scale up when there is enough players in close range. This is isn't an argument to mix in Toughness as an attribute to also have an impact on condition damage.

    Duration (expertise) is in general worthless as it increase too little of duration for defensive condition like Blind (you get a jump in 250 ms duration or up to 1 or 2 second if you go for full investment in all general duration increase incl on weapon sigil with Malice). It is better to increase the damage condition damage (and pick a base source as bleed, burn or torment - which is general from which Rune on pick) can do without any investment into duration as you don't have time to wait to get 12 K burn (have to wait 15-20 second) damage on target and without any hard CC it is not much you can do then run in a large group to make this kind of damage have an impact.

    Change in Toughness (to also counter condition damage as a attribute) would instead make Power damage as source too powerful and also make T/V builds more powerful then they are today and we will be back in longer time to kill range bunker builds.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

    Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

    Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

    I will admit that I think defensive stats are the ugly cousin in the corner and I think ANet dislikes them since they are not flashy. I could see toughness playing some reduced role in condition damage amounts. But I think that the argument that power requires crit and crit damage enhancers is false. PVT=CVT not Zerk=CVT. Power has a chance to crit built in with a base modifier if it does crit. Condi does not have that option. Likewise to defend condi needs to stack both V & T to defend against power that can burst, where as condi (as stated above) can be wiped out completely and in many cases just transferred. I say this as I run both power and condi builds overtime.

    Again as a player that plays both they feel in general inline right now but I could see toughness factoring in some way into damage reduction for condi, but not be as impactful as it is for power attacks. But your mileage will vary.

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  • ShadowCatz.8437ShadowCatz.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

    What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

    Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

    There's no cleansing stat though. :/

    but theres cleansing

    You forgot we also have CC (both soft and hard) that prevent skills that are condition based to actually activate and place condition on targets. Traps are the only skill type that have delay (after they have been placed) and can be triggered without player being active to activate (also ground based AoE need player to not be CCed to activate as a skill).

    To those who doesn't understand what pull or knock down (as example of hard CC) does to a condition build: it forces you out of your position, it take some time to actually get access to your skills as the animation have to end (same as for power builds) and condition builds take same damage like everybody else during that duration. Condition builds are depending on time to actually do enough damage to kill opponent and to not kill themselves by having too low HP (getting in execution range which some trait line can trigger).

    There is also traits that increase damage only from being in a certain range on HP (75% / 50% HP), so I am very much against any suggestion that damage traits now should also have less damage from traits are damage reduction trait turn into condition damage trait. How would even condition damage build work in that case? Power just have to get up from being knocked down and still do approximately the same damage as before (as long precision/ferocity have the same roll) and there is no change in targets HP (no healing up to 100 % HP)?

    Cleans, interrupt and dodge/evade all have a negative impact on condition builds to actually do damage. Power can spike their damage and need less time as long they have optimal damage (precision/ferocity) and max might (attacker)/vulnerability (on target) when they can hit target.

  • Noah Salazar.5430Noah Salazar.5430 Member ✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @Sovereign.1093
    Armor vs Condi culd be nice idea

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noah Salazar.5430 said:
    @Sovereign.1093
    Armor vs Condi culd be nice idea

    Wish it were so but condi ignores armor.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    2cents..

    Remove resistance as a boon, and use it as a stat, the max classes could do would be reducing damage from condi like some jalis trait and renegado do.,(maybe a 1-2sec boonc similiar to prot effect that its extremelly hard to stack).
    Condi primary based stats would have resistance stats for condi reducing.
    Power primary based stats would have toughness as usual defense.
    Defensive stats would have one or other but never both.

    Separate vulnerability and make it afect power only on a static value rather than stacks, on a short uptime condi since its static value would bit kinda hight. maybe 15-20%.
    Add Cracked armor increase condition efectiveness on players.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cracked_Armor

    Note: we already have a condi that reduces phisical damage by 50%

    By the other hand.... boons need to stop stacking :F xD

  • Toughness should lower the crit chance of the attacker by 0.1 per point of toughness. With the actual mechanic it's mostly useless.

    Με χίλια ονόματα, μία χάρη, ακρίτας ειτ’ αρματολός, αντάρτης, κλέφτης, παλικάρι; πάντα ειν’ ο ίδιος ο λαός.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I doubt Anet will change the core mechanics of the game.

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    pretty sure conditions are meant as a way to punish tanky builds that stack toughness and regular damage mitigation.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2020

    I don't think Toughness countering Condi is the right way to go personally. I had always believed that the "trinity" of guild wars should be Power -> Condi -> Tank. Power should beat Condi since its high burst vs DoT, Condi should beat Tank since it eats through Armor and Tank should beat Power because it absorbs damage. I'm pretty sure the issue with balance is in the is the stat spreads. Tanky builds are almost always Support orientated because there is no reason to play that otherwise, means they also counter condis. Condi builds have no reason to invest in trading off stats since they only really need Condi Damage+ to be effective (Expertise is not going to make or break a condi build) allowing them to run as tanky as they want too. And power can stack so many damage modifiers that it could delete you from stealth instantly. Anet has already taken steps to bring Power into line, but they need to also begin work on brining Condi and Tank/Support into better places too.

  • subversiontwo.7501subversiontwo.7501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2020

    I saw that some other people (eg., Aeolus) have already briefly touched on this but to add to what has already been said: I don't mind that there is a difference between conditions and power in what sort of effects they take and interact with. However, if there's anything on a grander scheme that I would look at it would probably be stack caps and the remaining stacking potential on certain classes. The latter is something they already started adressing with the february patch but there are obviously some outliers left that can stack too many stacks, too quickly and too easily (eg., it's a little too easy to land 6 stacks of torment as a Rev atm. but I'm sure those things will be addressed in the closest upcomming patches).

    The caps are more to ensure that condi does not become too bursty in larger scale combat. That is perhaps a bit more of a controversial subject as condi is already regarded as losing appeal the larger you scale but for me its more so to ensure that condi can be a damage-over-time feature and not something that just instantly deletes people when resistance strips or cleanses are not as readily available. That just isn't engaging gameplay and a single tick of condi should never largely out-burst big, telegraphed power attacks. I'm sure there are rather safe and easy ways to lower condition caps without making it considerably weaker in the back-and-forth stages of "effect control" wars. In fact, it can be seen as in line with a larger project on reducing spam and possible server load by capping off effects like conditions and boons; and the necessary calculations with them. Exactly how useful caps can be made to ease load and avoid calcs remains to be seen though, that's an infrastructure issue and at best a larger programming project to rewrite the systems that may not be worth the dedication. In theory, you could do something with it though and could swat multiple flies in both balance, performance and techdebt.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @subversiontwo.7501 said:
    I saw that some other people (eg., Aeolus) have already briefly touched on this but to add to what has already been said: I don't mind that there is a difference between conditions and power in what sort of effects they take and interact with. However, if there's anything on a grander scheme that I would look at it would probably be stack caps and the remaining stacking potential on certain classes. The latter is something they already started adressing with the february patch but there are obviously some outliers left that can stack too many stacks, too quickly and too easily (eg., it's a little too easy to land 6 stacks of torment as a Rev atm. but I'm sure those things will be addressed in the closest upcomming patches).

    The caps are more to ensure that condi does not become too bursty in larger scale combat. That is perhaps a bit more of a controversial subject as condi is already regarded as losing appeal the larger you scale but for me its more so to ensure that condi can be a damage-over-time feature and not something that just instantly deletes people when resistance strips or cleanses are not as readily available. That just isn't engaging gameplay and a single tick of condi should never largely out-burst big, telegraphed power attacks. I'm sure there are rather safe and easy ways to lower condition caps without making it considerably weaker in the back-and-forth stages of "effect control" wars. In fact, it can be seen as in line with a larger project on reducing spam and possible server load by capping off effects like conditions and boons; and the necessary calculations with them. Exactly how useful caps can be made to ease load and avoid calcs remains to be seen though, that's an infrastructure issue and at best a larger programming project to rewrite the systems that may not be worth the dedication. In theory, you could do something with it though and could swat multiple flies in both balance, performance and techdebt.

    I don't like dying to power damage. I think it would be better if we cap that, too. Thanks.

  • Give reason for condi builds to use other stats, like precision. On crit sigils are so so, but the condi on crit traits got nerfed in the last big balance. If condis got nerfed some more but gained more potential condi application on crit...you might see a change. This was how I ran a condi necro in early 2013 before dire- carrion armor, giver weapons, rapid jewelry(crucial for at least 35% crit chance). Which was all to proc sigils and the bleed on crit trait.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:
    Give reason for condi builds to use other stats, like precision. On crit sigils are so so, but the condi on crit traits got nerfed in the last big balance. If condis got nerfed some more but gained more potential condi application on crit...you might see a change. This was how I ran a condi necro in early 2013 before dire- carrion armor, giver weapons, rapid jewelry(crucial for at least 35% crit chance). Which was all to proc sigils and the bleed on crit trait.

    I ran rabid a long time ago too.

    It became uncompetetive when Anet boosted power builds through the roof in HoT, everyone had to pump up sustain.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • MiniMe.1960MiniMe.1960 Member ✭✭

    no toughness gets ignored by condi. But condi damage needs more multipliers.

    Veteran Flamer
    100% chance to be right after triggering a rage-whisper

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions.

    In all game modes, toughness reduces incoming condition damage, up to 40% for wvw, 30% for pvp, 60% for pve.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

    Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @archmagus.7249 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

    Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

    Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

    Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

    Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

    My point is, the damage you take is based on your toughness VS your opponent's damage. With conditions, you don't have that ratio to mitigate condition damage. The condition caps are so that you don't get hit with 50 stacks of bleed, 30 of confusion, and 25 of burning, and you go down in one tick.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

    Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

    Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

    Skills do a maximum of 1000 damage, all burst problems solved!

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    I've got two characters with 2k+ Toughness: a Minstrel Healdbrand and a Condi Renegade.

    The only bursty Power-damage characters I have with appreciable Toughness is… a Reaper with Carapace stacks.

    Do you see the problem with your proposal now?

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @archmagus.7249 said:
    I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

    So when we capping power damage ?

    Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

    Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

    Skills do a maximum of 1000 damage, all burst problems solved!

    You must play thief and love to get 25k crits on people from stealth

  • @Doug.4930 said:
    Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

    However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

    Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

    reduce condi lifetime and up condi stack.
    putting 3 burn stack for 3s is healthier than one burn stack for 10s.
    so condi plays closer to power but with roughly the same damage output of a full power/precision build without extra ferocity (since condi damage comes from one stats whereas power need that precision and extra foerocity to deal extra damage.). because of the cleanse mechanic.

    the problem would lie in the different condi damage. burning os obviously the best at dps while torment or bleeding are the worst. (not emntioning confusion)