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So now that PvP is dead....can we try it?

Luclinraider.2317Luclinraider.2317 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 4, 2021 in PVP

Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.
It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.
How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.
You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.
And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.
Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.
We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

Comments

  • @Gwaihir.1745 said:
    You're about to get white knighted by the guy getting carried because down state exists.

    Doesn't matter. You can't white knight a corpse. They are just a bunch of necrophiles at this point lol.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

  • John.8507John.8507 Member ✭✭✭

    There's Plenty of people play PVP?, just sort out the bots!

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lot of games out there that are popular have about 5k players or so active at a time so really until we are down to the 3 digits, I can't really call it dead. Also you're judging from what exactly.. This mini-season which was always less active that others?

    Sure there isn't enough players to prevent matchmaking from being a big coin toss most of the time but there's still enough people playing that it's still fun to play PvP normally.

    Besides lots of people don't like to just 1v1 for fun because there's no incentive with the lack of rewards which is a pretty big problem overall with any community, not that they should add rewards for it either, what happened to just having fun, improving or understanding what's going on?

    In turn that leads players to not improve or get good then we get random complains from those who barely play it to change so many things that don't make sense.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Luclinraider.2317Luclinraider.2317 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    "Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

    Change downstate from "True" to "False" in the back end.
    Of course this is an exaggeration but it likely wouldn't take more than 1 dev 5 minutes to turn downed state off in pvp. Not really anything invested.

  • Another kid mad because he can't just 1-rotation ko. Yawn.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.
    It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.
    How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.
    You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.
    And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.
    Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.
    We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

    If you remove downstate from pvp, the top 10 will consist soley of:

    • Power Burst Sic Em Soulbeasts
    • Rifle Deadeyes
    • PD Condi Thieves
  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it's not downed state that's inherently the problem but the absolutely stupid amount of safe sustain that lets people so easily and safely res downed players, and that the profession design and balance, especially since slowing the gameplay down, only rewards sitting around sustaining rather than making aggressive plays and opting for high-burst/high-damage builds.

    Sorry, the problem is risk/reward being thrown way off with expansion content. Downed state removal just buffs these sustain builds even more, since the only people that actually end up dropping regardless are the people opting for sub-optimal DPS specs playing aggressively.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    "Hey devs, this gamemode no longer worth investing in because it died, LETS INVEST IN IT!"

    Change downstate from "True" to "False" in the back end.
    Of course this is an exaggeration but it likely wouldn't take more than 1 dev 5 minutes to turn downed state off in pvp. Not really anything invested.

    Oh so all revive traits and skills can just go on the shelf next to the 300 second cooldown traits. Cool plan.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    A lot of games out there that are popular have about 5k players or so active at a time so really until we are down to the 3 digits, I can't really call it dead. Also you're judging from what exactly.. This mini-season which was always less active that others?

    Sure there isn't enough players to prevent matchmaking from being a big coin toss most of the time but there's still enough people playing that it's still fun to play PvP normally.

    Besides lots of people don't like to just 1v1 for fun because there's no incentive with the lack of rewards which is a pretty big problem overall with any community, not that they should add rewards for it either, what happened to just having fun, improving or understanding what's going on?

    In turn that leads players to not improve or get good then we get random complains from those who barely play it to change so many things that don't make sense.

    In my experience, you need around 200-300 players, per region, queing at prime time for match making to work effectively. Probably 500+ for robust match making. If not, the game experience suffers greatly, cuz majority of the games will lack in fairness. Also, when this happens the player pool tend to split into old veterans and new players testing the waters. No middle class. So matches default to which team has more or worse newbies.

    I have been through this in two games before. It is a frustrating experience. We might have a peak around the new expansion, but I would be surprised if it lasts more than 3 months. It is a death spiral, sadly. And even if Anet puts their act together, it won’t make a difference. The game is just too old, and clearly lacks the longevity that few other games have.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How many more times will spvp be "dead"?

  • There are things that has made me sod off for the evening and go farm iron instead. Downed state is not one of them.

  • Question , when will the new season for 5v5 ranked begin ?

  • You give zero reasons as to why downstate in PvP is bad, just that it magically is. Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Luclinraider.2317 said:
    Since SPvP has around 100 players prime time(excluding bots), and WvW has around 500 players prime time (excluding bots). Your PvP community it likely down to around 5,000 active players, if that.
    It feels like the PvP scene can't really be any more dead. And even if these couple thousand players all quit, it wouldn't change anything.
    How about we finally do what should have been done 7 years ago and remove downed state from pvp? Not for a weekend, not for a mode, from PvP....period.
    You have games with far far smaller player bases than GW2 with extremely successful PvP scenes that are still holding tournaments. And then you have GW2 with one of the least active and most hated PvP scenes in an MMO primarily due to the downed state.
    And yes, it is indeed the reason their PvP failed. All games suffer balance issues, even games like WoW arena. Yet they still have hundreds of thousands of arena players fighting for a huge put every year. We even see this in smaller games like Blade and Soul...with 1/10 of the user base of GW2 but 10x the pvp scene.
    Downed state is awesome in PvE, Raids, Dungeons, Open World...but it has no place in PvP. You ask streamers, the old GW2 pro's (before the scene died so much that the new pro's are bots), WoW Arena players, they all say the same thing. We dont play GW2 because of the downed state.
    We really have nothing to lose at this point. PvP no longer exists in GW2, might as well give it a try and see what its like and if it attracts new players.....

    If you remove downstate from pvp, the top 10 will consist soley of:

    • Power Burst Sic Em Soulbeasts
    • Rifle Deadeyes
    • PD Condi Thieves

    Removing Downstate is not a good idea, it removes a good chunk of the game mechanics.

    I will say it again as man times before My recommendation is simple: Remove the Revival action (default key F) while in combat. The downed player can still be rallied and all the of Downed skills/traits/runes/skills which offer revival will still work. If the pewpew can not hit you anymore because is being chased by your friendlies eventually you will revive yourself . If your friendlies aren't in combat they can revive you. It is feasible as it has already been implemented for defeated players (fully dead).

    Revival in PvP modes should carry more weight than currently has and for that Anet has to remove the Free revival with the F key. Revival skills have hefty cooldowns because the revive should mean something, Revive a friendly will change the outcome of any encounter.
    Being able to get it for free with literally no investment from the players is a very frustrating mechanic as it feels like you have been robbed from a victory.

    There is literally no downside to disabling the Revival action while in combat. None.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @MysteryMen.3791 said:
    Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

    Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

    Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

    The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

    tl;dr
    You see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Ryan.9387Ryan.9387 Member ✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @MysteryMen.3791 said:
    Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

    Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

    Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

    The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

    tl;dr
    You see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

    Non gw2 streamers (and most of those too tbh) aren't going to be a good way to get gw2 feedback. Watching those kinds of players like summit, its immediately clear they're just tilted at being bad and don't have any interest in actually learning how to pvp. Its somewhat understandable given they're walking into an 8 year old pvp scene.

    Speaking of conquest. Forum posters begged for deathmatch and we got it. Anet put out courtyard and people hated it. Same with stronghold.

    Pvp's issues are deeper than downstate. Its a mess of slow balance tempo, unwillingness to balance classes to clear roles, removal of skill expression, power creep, and lack of dev support on the personal side. Downstate has nothing to do with it.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    How many more times will spvp be "dead"?

    there should be a zombie mode

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ryan.9387 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @MysteryMen.3791 said:
    Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

    Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

    Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

    The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

    tl;dr
    You see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

    Non gw2 streamers (and most of those too tbh) aren't going to be a good way to get gw2 feedback. Watching those kinds of players like summit, its immediately clear they're just tilted at being bad and don't have any interest in actually learning how to pvp. Its somewhat understandable given they're walking into an 8 year old pvp scene.

    Speaking of conquest. Forum posters begged for deathmatch and we got it. Anet put out courtyard and people hated it. Same with stronghold.

    Pvp's issues are deeper than downstate. Its a mess of slow balance tempo, unwillingness to balance classes to clear roles, removal of skill expression, power creep, and lack of dev support on the personal side. Downstate has nothing to do with it.

    Im not saying what happend in the past few months that summit 'discovered' gw2. Im talking what was going on in the beginning of gw2, when streamers from other MMOs wanted to try it out cuz it was promising (same as rn with Ashes of Creation or New World).
    Yep, begged for deathmatch and guess what, it wasnt balanced. They struggle with conquest balance, not even talking about other modes. And stronghold...really, MOBA inside of MMO? Kek.
    Downstate is one of factors, we got used to it but it doesnt mean it was right from the very beginning. It doesnt need to be removed in conquest, just balanced (like most things in this game, lmao), but if we would want other modes to be viable, it should be deleted from them.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • Assyr.3296Assyr.3296 Member ✭✭

    I hate the downed state. The only way I would agree to keep it is if they instead disallowed the revival of players while in combat. You stay downed until you're rallied or until combat ends when revival then becomes an option.

  • Mindless.9721Mindless.9721 Member ✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    Hot take:
    New players don't really care THAT much about downed state.
    The problem are other design choices which simply aren't fun, choices which this community often defends, cause the pvp-veterans are extremly disconnected from the average newcomer.
    Just look at the burn guard threads for example.
    There is a reason why we pretty much have a new thread about it every week - yet a big portion of the comments still are just "l2p noob" without every thinking about the impact this stuff has on the influx of new players cause it simply isn't a fun experience.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    We might have a peak around the new expansion, but I would be surprised if it lasts more than 3 months. It is a death spiral, sadly. And even if Anet puts their act together, it won’t make a difference. The game is just too old, and clearly lacks the longevity that few other games have.

    It pains me greatly to admit this, but I agree - lately I just can't shake the feeling that the game is in a death spiral, and anything cool we have to look forward to in EoD can't really reverse that. It hurts to watch, because GW2 has so much to give, but I'm not sure we players have the patience left to wait for the devs to draw that out between bungled releases and abandoned game features.

    More than the underlying technology of the game, I think it takes a special kind of vision and management to keep an old product relevant for a decade+. That being said, I'm sure there are things about how GW2 is built (high end machines still struggling to keep FPS steady, for one thing) that make it even less likely that someone with that special vision/management could have pulled it off.

  • Flumek.9043Flumek.9043 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    Downstate isnt problem, it is actually its best selling point.

    It makes the game unique AND adds control (most important).
    GW2 simply SUUUUCKZ for deathmatch format. While the "CONTROL" aspect of combat is amazing.
    The game at launch had poeple play cleric bunker guard, which mainly rezzed or stomped with stability - AND ppl loved it. Just cc+bursting someone from stealth isnt really that skillfull and it adds a ton of rng. The interupt - cleave - rezz trinity is the best stabilizer of gw2 combat.
    Theres also WHOLE CLASSES DESIGNED to be HORRIBLE for deathmatch but having rezz support in exchange. TLDR a "mode" with 0 rezzed is WVW ROAMING. Now think what builds and playstyles dominate that format.

    What CAN/WERE problems and shouldnt return:

    • mercy rune bunkers for rezz abusing
    • perma 1x stack stability for rezz abuse
    • 2x double rally , makes too big swings and punishes the team who already lost a player too much. ( ex. Turning a 3v2 into a 3v4 is freelose, would be more interesting to keep it 3v3 with 1 downed)
    • too much AOE dmg for preventing rezz at all (this is main problem NOW since powercreep turned support bunkers into hybrids)
  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Downstate is good. Rallying is bad. (Especially if more than 1 person can really of 1 kill in PvP.)
    And the people trying to argue against adding new game modes with something like "it will split the already low playerbase between game modes".

    The fact that there are not enough game modes to satisfy a lot of players (there seem to be a lot that do not dislike PvP in general but that hate conquest) might have been a part that lead to the low population.

    If you add more game modes (we have another recent thread about this topic) it could create synergy effects: People that never played PvP that now start to play it - just because of that game mode ... with them maybe playing the other modes as well every now and then. (Especially if you do daily rotation .... play 1 gamemode x at one day and the next day another daily ... rotating.)

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    For all the players who asked why removing downstate would improve the game: Downstate as a mechanic favors the side with higher numbers. It really is as simple as that. Any WvW roamer will tell you that fighting 1vX becomes significantly easier when no downstate weekend is in effect. Apart from the obvious removal to promote skill based combat, it would also help to prevent snowballing in matches. In 5v5 conquest, one of the best ways to win is to ensure that the enemy team always has less people in active play than your team. This is accomplished by keeping the enemy team on "half res" so that as they push back onto the points they are always outnumbered (which makes winning fights even harder with downstate essentially acting as a force multiplier to the larger group). Downstate as a mechanic allows players to bolster the re-spawn timer of their enemies by forcing them to sit in downstate and wait for the automatic health degeneration to kill them, providing time for the enemies who were stomped to get back into play as the ones who were forced to wait are still on timer. I'm sure this has happened to all of us many times. It feels as though your team is playing 3v5 for an entire match.

  • anjo.6143anjo.6143 Member ✭✭✭

    I know thats not the reason pvp is dead, but I dont see any sense on downed state on pvp either.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    We might have a peak around the new expansion, but I would be surprised if it lasts more than 3 months. It is a death spiral, sadly. And even if Anet puts their act together, it won’t make a difference. The game is just too old, and clearly lacks the longevity that few other games have.

    It pains me greatly to admit this, but I agree - lately I just can't shake the feeling that the game is in a death spiral, and anything cool we have to look forward to in EoD can't really reverse that. It hurts to watch, because GW2 has so much to give, but I'm not sure we players have the patience left to wait for the devs to draw that out between bungled releases and abandoned game features.

    More than the underlying technology of the game, I think it takes a special kind of vision and management to keep an old product relevant for a decade+. That being said, I'm sure there are things about how GW2 is built (high end machines still struggling to keep FPS steady, for one thing) that make it even less likely that someone with that special vision/management could have pulled it off.

    It is not an easy question what maintains players interest for more than 5 years. The only other MMO that managed that level of success is WoW. I personally dunno why. I think GW2 was holding okayish till mid last year. But since, every thing was mediocre, slow and/or receycled.

    For me, the spvp Feb 2020 patch was a major mistake. Major shifts rarely bring players back to the game or bring in new players. The most definitely alienate many existing active players. This is why these need to be a slam dunk. What Anet did was an air ball. And even if you can argue it hit the board, this cannot be mediocre. It needed to be extremely good, so it would not alienate a big portion of the player base.

  • MysteryMen.3791MysteryMen.3791 Member ✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @MysteryMen.3791 said:
    Also no one above gold 3 has ever wanted downstate removed, definitely not the old gw2 pros and the current top tier players. I have never once tilted because downstate existed but clearly you do a lot.

    Aaand thats not quite truth. Except for balance and lack of...interest from ANet side in PvP scene, downed state was one of the reasons why MMO PvP pros/players/etc didnt like GW2 PvP. Myself included, as a guy that came to GW2 from WoW and GW1 and played both of them on high PvP level. Over the years, many streamers that have multiple thousands of viewers in WoW (either playing pve, arenas or other things) or other MMOs wanted to try gw2 and in PvP almost all of them said that downed state is just...weird and not needed.

    Now hear me out, I dont say that downed state is pure evil. It makes game flow much slower, but you can get used to it and take advantage in conquest mode making other players useless for longer amount of time. Problem starts when we come across few things, such as ressbots. There shouldnt exist any, again, ANY skills, traits, whatsoever that makes ressing players faster than it is implemented by default. You use multiple CDs to burst some1 down, then comes 1 guy with one CD and just picks him up. No, if you wanna pick some1 up, you gotta go to that body, spend few seconds ressing him, popping your defensive CDs so you wont die either. Let me compare it to WoW where ress skill is 10 (!) second cast. Also there are hillarious downed state skills, such as rev slow, condi teef spamming 1 etc. Tbh I have no idea who designed them, but since the very beginning those are a joke (back in the vanilla days there were necro builds with downed +damage trait that allowed to deal same damage as if you were up, hillarious Karthus gameplay).

    The other thing is kinda more complicated, and its conquest mode as a whole. GW2 wanted to be a special kiddo where in most MMOs in ranked games you just have arenas or sth like that, 2v2, 3v3 etc. Its good, it works. But ANet made sth called 'cap and hold 3 circles for X minutes, have fun'. Over the years more and more ppl started leaving this mode because they just want to fight, they dont care about circles. They moved to other games, or to dueling zones, or WvW. Existing bunker and healbots aint helping either. So what ANet made? Hmmm, how about we admit our mistakes and make 2v2, 3v3 off-meta arenas? Yeah, right in time. But oh boi, what a clownfiesta those modes became. And again, while in conquest mode downed state can be either your advantage and disadvantage, in 2s and 3s there should be no such thing. If you die, you die, period. But thats just some offmeta gamemode that no1 cares about because there are no PvP devs in this company that can properly balance it and make arenas viable in gw2.

    tl;dr
    You see, GW2 was this one special kid in class that wanted to make things on its own. No arenas, conquest mode (arenas added later on), no raids, fractals and dungeons (raids added later on), no instant death mode in pvp modes, downed state (wvw 'no downed state' week events later on) and so on and so on. Ofc you can be succesful as special kid, bah, gw2 started as really succesful one! But lack of any interest from the company made this game what we have now, kinda dead, more and more with each day. Copy-pasting is easy way to make money, starting new meta is hard and lack of any commitment from devs side is just a proof that they shouldnt start anything new and just copy-paste and learn from big brothers because they have no idea what to do with their cake.

    name a single top level gw2 player or pro that doesn't like downstate. Only people that get annoyed by it are people unable to deal with their own lack of skill when a target gets revived. It also adds a lot of depth to the game and decision making.