3/23 PvP Balance - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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3/23 PvP Balance

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  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    You know, people should Not care about top stats, because they are not worth mentioning outside of deaths

    I am care about and I like to see on my name visible personal respect with top heal or other stat

    At least I care for a healthy gamestate

    I am care too.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HeadCrowned.6834 said:
    Problem with support specs in GW2 could be that they do too much at the same time. Healing, boons, damage mitigation (projectile blocks and stuff), condi cleanse and rezzes.

    This is not problem. This is feature of support in good mmo game. 1 support should have more bigger value that one, or two dps class I am sure.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • The Last Hobbit.6492The Last Hobbit.6492 Member ✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    Why don't you consider removing Sigil of Energy?

    It effectively doubles the amount you can dodge and is meta in literally every PvP build.

    Pretty sure that low cooldown invulnerability is a key part of players being hard to kill.

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2021

    @Avatar.3568 said:

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    yes, remove menders, shouldnt be able to do damage as support, literally kills roles in the pvp, people qq are the ones who cant play anything other then braindead builds thats carried by mender

    The problem is though, that the alernatives that remain are Avatar's and Sage's. Meaning supports will do more damage and less healing. Meaning they won't be supports, they will be bruisers at that point. I fail to see how pushing supports towards bruiser amulets will restore roles in PvP my dude.

    Avatar does not do more dmg, it's the same but more consistent

    Supports can still support, cleansing stab etc... Is not bound to healing amuletts, but with less healing power bunkers are not gonna be that selfsustainisch and with supports doing more dmg we may have a faster game

    Here is the thing though: if I can choose between a subar support or a decent bruiser build, I'm not going to play support. I'm going to play the build thats more value for my team. And a build that can bunker nodes and stall fights, thats way more effective than a support without healing.
    So people will just drop the idea of playing support and bunker up. I can see the game getting faster already!

  • Kanto.2485Kanto.2485 Member ✭✭

    Demolisher amulet support builds are coming boys!
    ...no really, mender is barely a support amulet already, after this patch the healing on Pure of Heart goes from 515 (0 healing power) to 666 (mender), on guard you might as well play carrion/demolisher and at least you'll deal damage.
    On top of that barrier scaling is not nerfed. Tempests and guards barely heal anything, while Scourges give 5k barriers just by standing around, with much lower cds.
    On previous metas we had cleric and magi amulets with support builds not being a problem and the pace of the game being much faster.
    If we really want a faster meta, how about starting by making map smallers and reducing kiting spots or fixing autopathing? most shadowsteps don't work if the opponent is on a even just slightly elevated terrain (see the top of the staircase in auric span for example), this is a big problem for many burst builds that need to chase enemies.
    Also, must we really nerf everything that can't be killed in 1v1 by a berserker/marauder build? there are condi classes that can outpressure bunker builds, maybe those could get tuned a bit so they become viable at high levels?
    Hoping to be listened, i'll go play Paladin support guard.

  • removing amulets .. again , this just speaks of how little efforts u are willing to put in to balance stuff around . balancing is a cat and mouse game where the community constantly find broken builds and the devs remove those builds and make others stronger, this loop is what keeps the game intersting , while i like the balancing u mentione today i genuinly hate how the first thing to do it everytime is to remove a build option that impact the game much more than that individual builds that abused it u dont always have to cut things from the root . removing build options one by one without making other builds strong is just speed running to monotony , u just cant break the meta cycles by removing build options . i understand the hardship of indivualy balancing the traits to a satisfying point but most of the current meta problemes are a direct result of the overdone seperation a year ago where everyone became so much weaker which lead to bunker builds becoming stronger > now the bunker builds are becoming weaker . then there is no genuine reason to specialise in either of them and slowly we are gonna see the entire build pool full of builds that acctualy feel the same

    (its already happening ) overly brusty builds all work on this format now : knockdown/cc > dmg > burst but well it is already happening that alot of the builds feel the same

  • Thank you very much for the communication and update! Keep it up guys! :)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kanto.2485 said:
    Demolisher amulet support builds are coming boys!
    ...no really, mender is barely a support amulet already, after this patch the healing on Pure of Heart goes from 515 (0 healing power) to 666 (mender), on guard you might as well play carrion/demolisher and at least you'll deal damage.
    On top of that barrier scaling is not nerfed. Tempests and guards barely heal anything, while Scourges give 5k barriers just by standing around, with much lower cds.
    On previous metas we had cleric and magi amulets with support builds not being a problem and the pace of the game being much faster.
    If we really want a faster meta, how about starting by making map smallers and reducing kiting spots or fixing autopathing? most shadowsteps don't work if the opponent is on a even just slightly elevated terrain (see the top of the staircase in auric span for example), this is a big problem for many burst builds that need to chase enemies.
    Also, must we really nerf everything that can't be killed in 1v1 by a berserker/marauder build? there are condi classes that can outpressure bunker builds, maybe those could get tuned a bit so they become viable at high levels?
    Hoping to be listened, i'll go play Paladin support guard.

    making maps smaller and "fixing" kiting spots will turn conquest closer to the kitten fest that was 3v3.
    aka 3x support

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I love the word "slight" being thrown around when talking about nerfs to rev.

    5sec CD to 12sec CD.
    3sec duration to 2sec duration.
    25e to 10e.

    I'd hate to see heavy nerfs :#

    Got you covered! here a small glimpse of what heavy nerfs look like:

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twist_of_Fate
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Blast + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Electric_Discharge (killed scepter ele FA)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Wave (downgraded staff ele from B to D )
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Strikes (the removal of stability downgraded the spec from A to C)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Meteor_Shower + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lava_Font (killed staff ele)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk's_Focus (killed guardian sustain as bruiser )
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right (killed warrior sustain for most part)

    These are example of nerfs I don't agree with 'cause rather than fixing anything..they simply deleted entire specs from the game, forcing people away from weapon sets and utilities now deemed pointless to even add on the skillbar, believe me when I say that most of you have no idea what a heavy nerf looks like...lucky you

    Well I used to play hammer rev so I have an idea :s

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Lucentfir.7430 said:
    This is what this community wanted, you all made your bed, now lay in it, and keep on with the amulet removal Anet, great job :+1: look into runes and sigils next, and maybe even weapons. This is why I said time and time again that the February patch was badly executed. They never go in-depth for class balancing to fix the root of the problem. They take the lazy route out. People whine about WvW being a unbalanced mess, well that's basically unfiltered GW2 PvP.

    ah we've got a regular nostradamus here. good for you bud. no one wanted things to turn out this way, how about you get off your high horse cuz you're not fooling anyone.

    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • @JuanAtreyu.9043 said:
    Thanks for "balancing" the game mode.

    Nothing is more fun that autoattacking for 5 damage each while waiting for your skills to come off cooldown. But yes, bunkers are a problem, so let's remove more tanky amulets so the autoattacks do 6 damage instead. But if something does 10 damage, nerf it to 2.

    Great balancing philosophy.

    This game is a snoozefest. Everything we were promised with the last February patch has not come to fruition. We were better off if that patch hadn't existed, given how boring PvP has been ever since.

    Agreed. I thought the whole point of the February balance patch was to have a clean slate from which they can slowly bring power levels back up where appropriate. It's been over a year now and every balance patch since has been nerfs. It shouldn't be taking this long. I guess they are busy balancing the upcoming expansion elite specs?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. making a bunch of bad and flat out weird changes that somehow shifts the meta, now thats what to expect. what a tired monologue lol. see told you so! but nah you had no idea what was going to happen just like the rest of us. people that do that are so lame and easy to dismiss. besides how the hell are you going to blame people that wanted to lower damage when they don't work at anet? i didn't even make no bed. just looking for a scapegoat. anyway i'm not complaining about the balance, there are some wonky outliers like usual, and yes damage is a little low but the fix is easy. people either kitten and moan or they adapt, or leave lol. doesn't matter in the end, this game was released half finished and it'll die half finished.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. **no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. **

    :/
    Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    100% the way to go, perfect note. Good balance and very interested to see how things turn out after mender changes!

    You still spvp, havnt seen youtube stuff in a while :'(

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. **no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. **

    :/
    Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

    cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Thank you for the balance patch.

    I also want to suggest something.

    "Bleeding" a player shouldn't be a viable strategy because it is boring to watch and it is boring to be downed just to watch even more during the Respawn.
    Downstate should be a brief second chance to rally and an opportunity for great Teamplay efforts or support plays and winning teams should have a reason to finish someone and if they chose not to do it, defeats should happen faster. Therefore I think Downstate HP Pool or "rezz%" per Tick given by another player should be looked into. The window for "rezz/rally" Gameplay should be shorter making "Rezz Skill" Gameplay more valuable and great moments to pull off. (The ability to heal yourself while downed could be limited(ammo system) in competitive modes(?)) But maybe that creates new problems i haven't thought about. Outside of AT or mAT's cooperation is low in Ranked matches in low ranks and cleaving a target all by yourself feels very tough currently if somebody rezzes them at the same time.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. **no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. **

    :/
    Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

    cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

    If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • I do wonder if it is really the amulets. I just started skipping after awhile, so sorry if someone already mentioned this, but something I noticed about the February patch is that it affected all of the healing skills differently. While damage was dropped by 1/3rd, the heals... weren't. There were some reductions, but mostly what was changed is the scaling from healing power. I.E. looking at ele:

    Regeneration: no change
    Healing Mist: 800 (1.0) to 800 (0.5)
    Healing Ripple: 1,302 (1.0) to 1,042 (0.75)
    Cleansing Wave: 1,558 (1.0) to 1,302 (0.6)
    Glyph of Elemental Harmony: 6,494 (1.2) to 6,494 (1.0)
    Ether Renewal: No change
    Signet of Restoration: No change on active. 202 (.1) to 171 (.07)
    Cone of Cold: No change
    Overload Water: 392 (.2) to 392 (.1)

    And so on. The only skills that are proportionally nerfed (or overnerfed) in comparison to damage are those that are Weaver specific. This is just a microcosm of what holds true for each of the professions: the scaling was hit more than the base heals. Since heals effectively act as negative damage, the absence of proportional cuts in base healing means that overall damage output was actually reduced by more than a third. This compounds further with group heals and healing effects.

    Getting rid of all of the healing amulets only affects heal scaling. Now, I'm sure there's some FotM build out there that has good scaling, but as you reduce the amulets and the scaling of specific skills, you're just shifting the heal role to skills that still heal in an AoE, but have higher base heals instead.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I do wonder if it is really the amulets. I just started skipping after awhile, so sorry if someone already mentioned this, but something I noticed about the February patch is that it affected all of the healing skills differently. While damage was dropped by 1/3rd, the heals... weren't. There were some reductions, but mostly what was changed is the scaling from healing power. I.E. looking at ele:

    Regeneration: no change
    Healing Mist: 800 (1.0) to 800 (0.5)
    Healing Ripple: 1,302 (1.0) to 1,042 (0.75)
    Cleansing Wave: 1,558 (1.0) to 1,302 (0.6)
    Glyph of Elemental Harmony: 6,494 (1.2) to 6,494 (1.0)
    Ether Renewal: No change
    Signet of Restoration: No change on active. 202 (.1) to 171 (.07)
    Cone of Cold: No change
    Overload Water: 392 (.2) to 392 (.1)

    And so on. The only skills that are proportionally nerfed (or overnerfed) in comparison to damage are those that are Weaver specific. This is just a microcosm of what holds true for each of the professions: the scaling was hit more than the base heals. Since heals effectively act as negative damage, the absence of proportional cuts in base healing means that overall damage output was actually reduced by more than a third. This compounds further with group heals and healing effects.

    Getting rid of all of the healing amulets only affects heal scaling. Now, I'm sure there's some FotM build out there that has good scaling, but as you reduce the amulets and the scaling of specific skills, you're just shifting the heal role to skills that still heal in an AoE, but have higher base heals instead.

    You might be onto something here. The question is of course how can one make support/bunker killable without making them completely unviable. Maybe look at pressure they still manage to put out (cough scourge) and touch healing sources a bit.

    @all bunkers: don't kill me but you can't possibly enjoy 2 bunker guards +2 support scourge vs 2 bunker guards + 2support sourges all season O_O (yes, i had such matches).

    Meh~

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    100% the way to go, perfect note. Good balance and very interested to see how things turn out after mender changes!

    I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Now I'm doubting my doubts, my brain is about to break... 10/10!

  • @Cynz.9437 said:
    You might be onto something here. The question is of course how can one make support/bunker killable without making them completely unviable. Maybe look at pressure they still manage to put out (cough scourge) and touch healing sources a bit.

    @all bunkers: don't kill me but you can't possibly enjoy 2 bunker guards +2 support scourge vs 2 bunker guards + 2support sourges all season O_O (yes, i had such matches).

    I play support and agree completely. Instead of removing yet more amulet variety from the game, focus more on the base healing effects on skills.

    Kensuda
    NA Support Guardian

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2021

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @felix.2386 said:
    yes, remove menders, shouldnt be able to do damage as support, literally kills roles in the pvp, people qq are the ones who cant play anything other then braindead builds thats carried by mender

    The problem is though, that the alernatives that remain are Avatar's and Sage's. Meaning supports will do more damage and less healing. Meaning they won't be supports, they will be bruisers at that point. I fail to see how pushing supports towards bruiser amulets will restore roles in PvP my dude.

    they are adding sigils that compensate out going healing loses for pure support class and that side noder should be more about damage and less about healing and supporting and sustaining.

    i always think that they should just make a pure support amulet on top of removing mender, but i think we had that and it was too much healing. they probably had some stats limit they need to follow. if they remove power they need to ramp up healing/vitality for lose stats.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. **no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. **

    :/
    Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

    cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

    If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

    SIGH. you keep on ignoring the obvious in favor of the gotcha narrative. listen. a lot of people liked the damage nerf, no one wants things to remain as they are now and no one predicted that anet would do so little within the larger meta. we've had long lasting metas but always enough smaller changes within those metas to shake things up. i think if anet continued that tendency of smaller incremental changes the game would be pretty decent right now, given the types of changes we've seen from cmc.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That's how supposed to be, the game should always be balanced around a level where people know how to use the dodge button and bother to keep track of the enemy skillbar/build. Also it seems CMC taking into consideration the effort/reward ratio of a build before applying changes which are more good news for all us.
    As long as CMC keeps taking the forum "feedback" with a grain of salt and focus instead on tournament and win rate by profession, we will reach the most favourable version of balance...may be not ideal but certainly anything better than balance based on forum so called feedback

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

    Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

    Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:

    • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
    • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
    • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

    All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).
    Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

    Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

    Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:

    • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
    • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
    • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

    All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).
    Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

    im gonna take a guess and say in WvW players dont have a kitten dodge button.
    The reason why pets have more health is due to inability to avoid damage, players CAN do it, pets CANT do it.
    In wvw both players and pets cant. If you focus rangers pet it will die really kitten fast to most builds, it dont change the fact that its not worth it to do so

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    Sometimes builds are prevalent not because viability, but enjoy ability, I for one didn't play burn DH, or use pve raid greatsword in pvp, or use terrible spirit weapons, actually the heal I took solely for blindness had higher base damage than all the traps I was traited to use after the nerfs, and guardian still see's nerfs.
    Dragons maw was used for its (dodge able and block able)burst damage, the CC was irrelevant, and only came into play to allow us to auto attack chain someone after the nerfs, as now in pvp/wvw a thief can port in with burst damage, run away from the slow guardian to reset, and repeat as slow sustained damage can't kill a thief.
    Without porting traps, DH can only stand around camping traps, and if you consider them by the old definition of traps then why does siege, sentry poles, and other important objectives now trigger them removing the ability to use them as traps for players.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta.

    Does this only apply to non-ranger classes/necromancer specifically or does this mean that ranger will be forever in the gutter or do we get an complete rework with the expansion? Ranger is by design AI-heavy, so there is no space for ranger with this philosophy applied to all classes.

    Ranger is definitely not in the gutter. When I play WoW as a hunter, I actually envy how extremely durable and powerful your pets in gw2 are compared to how balanced they are in WoW (I really don't envy it, I actually appreciate the balance of pets in WoW compared to gw2). Pets in WoW have:

    • significantly less health than the player. In gw2, they have about the same amount of health, if not the same, period.
    • less defensive and offensive stats than the actual player.
    • pets skills don't hit near as hard, both consistently and burst, as the player.

    All in all, I think anet can learn something from how WoW does their balance for pets and for some skills as well (example shorter cooldown skills do less damage, skills that are instant or hit faster and over multiple hits deal less damage than skills that do 1 hit per attack, or are much slower, and many many more).
    Which, IMO, I think they're trying to work on getting there, hence the nerfs to certain things. So far, the bulk of their nerfs are not random and are for very good reason. And, IMO, they're doing pretty darn good at getting there. They just need to address things more often than 1.5 months, especially when something is horribly overperforming.

    im gonna take a guess and say in WvW players dont have a kitten dodge button.
    The reason why pets have more health is due to inability to avoid damage, players CAN do it, pets CANT do it.
    In wvw both players and pets cant. If you focus rangers pet it will die really kitten fast to most builds, it dont change the fact that its not worth it to do so

    But players can swap pets in this game and they return with full health, Soulbeasts having the ability to merge with their pet for the same effect (to a greater degree, soulbeasts can also revive dead pets just by clicking merge. In WoW, players have to go through a 3s channel to revive their dead pet.)

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    For real? People warned against this type of balance and some of the community said "you just want to keep being carried".
    There were people applauding this type of balance. Where did they think it was going to end up? " but Anet promised us!" Lol...
    This is 100%, sleep in the bed you make.

    nah bs. **no one could have expected anet to do next to nothing for a year. **

    :/
    Am I on the right forums? This is the gw2 forum right?

    cute. they've never done so little before for so long. another nostradamus moment i guess.

    If what we are saying is so blanket obvious predictable maybe you should be listening to us more often instead of sticking your fingers in your ears afterwards saying "well anyone could have predicted that...".

    SIGH. you keep on ignoring the obvious in favor of the gotcha narrative. listen. a lot of people liked the damage nerf, no one wants things to remain as they are now and no one predicted that anet would do so little within the larger meta. we've had long lasting metas but always enough smaller changes within those metas to shake things up. i think if anet continued that tendency of smaller incremental changes the game would be pretty decent right now, given the types of changes we've seen from cmc.

    See you again next " balance patch" when you are still confused on how we got here and why nobody saw it coming.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    See you again next " balance patch" when you are still confused on how we got here and why nobody saw it coming.

    cool story

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    Why don't you Fix the downstate since that's your main problem, you can start by removing the ability to heal from fields while downed, on hit heal effects. and halving the amount of healing per pulse while being rez'd.

    Or do you really believe people can go 200-0 seasons without abusing a poorly thought out mechanic?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Please add new amulets too. Eventually we will only have like 4 to choose from

    4 amulets and 4 different colored sticks to choose from (additional gemstore stick skins to come the following tuesday).

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Please add new amulets too. Eventually we will only have like 4 to choose from

    4 amulets and 4 different colored sticks to choose from (additional gemstore stick skins to come the following tuesday).

    dibs on red stick, everyone knows that red goes fasta

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

    Meta means : highest reward for the least amount of effort, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

    Meta means : highest reward for the least amount of effort, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

    Yes, that's the 'interesting' part I'm talking about ... clearly in a game where meta ISN'T the balancing target in PVE, the idea they are even looking at it should be concerning because of how it will impact new content. Like always, I suspect that Anet has their own definition for what meta is, based on the language used in the OP; I'm sure many people will be bringing torches and pitchforks if we start seeing some contradictions in meta balancing efforts, even in PVP.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    The changes definitely make a lot of sense this time (unlike the last round that hammered scrapper and left guard/rev intact) and the communication going with it is VERY MUCH appreciated. The lack of Scourge/Nec nerfs however is a massive gap in the balance and your tendency to first let things escalate before you have the "data" and then act is clearly shooting you in the foot here. The mAT final on EU was barely watchable yesterday due to essentially 4 menders/bunkers on each side, 2 of them being either Scourge or Minionmancer. And these builds are plagueing ranked more and more aswell.

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been gone awhile, but I always saw jokes about the game mode devolving to hitting people with sticks
    Now its not only getting there in terms of damage but the "remedy" to supports being stronger (from the lack of said damage) is to kill off support too?
    How did things end up going down such a strange route?

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Euthymias.7984 said:
    I've been gone awhile, but I always saw jokes about the game mode devolving to hitting people with sticks
    Now its not only getting there in terms of damage but the "remedy" to supports being stronger (from the lack of said damage) is to kill off support too?
    How did things end up going down such a strange route?

    Because the game was powercrept before, so the obvious answer was to create the exact opposite situation, stripping away so much power that the bare basics such as:

    • Having functional traits
    • Having skills that perform their intended purpose
    • Having selectable stats that compliment the build you'd like to play

    Have become OP to the point that they need to be brought in line with everything else that barely functions.

    Naturally, if you criticize this gameplay direction, you just want to play functional broken builds that require zero skill.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

    Meta means : highest reward for the least amount of effort, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

    Meta is not the highest reward for least amount, meta is the strongest way to play, when pherald meta is, I bet 9/10 players fail to deliver a solid gameplay (I know there are many very good revs out there) but it's still pretty hard to play.

    Tho in this bunker meta its probably true because bunker often doesn't need that much skill, especially if you can just facetank mostly everything

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    Thank you for the update! Especially the removal of Mender's is exciting news.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi everyone,

    Today’s update included a handful of PvP balance changes and we wanted to share some context behind the decisions we’ve made to the Guardian, Necromancer, and Revenant professions. At the very end of this post, we’ll also talk about areas we’re investigating for future updates.

    Condition Guardian Variants

    • Permeating Wrath: Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
    • Eternal Armory: Reduced burning duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
    • Sword of Justice: Reduced ammunition count from 3 to 2 in PvP only. Increased cooldown between skill uses from 1 second to 5 seconds in PvP only.

    Dragonhunter is the most prevalent version of condition Guardian, but Core also sees a fair amount of play with similar levels of success in the ranked environment. We’re starting with some adjustments to Permeating Wrath, Eternal Armory, and Sword of Justice to tone down the AoE burning pressure that both of these builds bring. Eternal Armory in particular is a trait that we’re evaluating for a game-wide functional change to better normalize the burning potential of all spirit weapons, but until then we’re reducing the duration to help mitigate the overperforming case with sword.

    Rune of the Trapper is notably unscathed, but it’s high on our watchlist and depending on the impact of today’s changes it may see some adjustment in the future.

    Minion Necromancer

    • Flesh of the Master: Reduced minion health bonus from 50% to 25% in PvP only.
    • Death Nova: Reduced power coefficient from 0.6 to 0.45 in PvP only.

    We made some small adjustments to minion builds last month, and we’re making a couple more today to bring it more inline. While it’s somewhat interesting how minionmancer matches up against some of the meta side-noders in higher tier play, from a balance philosophy point of view we don’t want AI-heavy builds to be a pillar of the PvP meta. Minionmancer has also been overperforming in ranked for quite a while, and as condition Guardians get brought down in power level we want to make sure that players can keep enemy minions in check - so we’re shaving down their overall health and slightly reducing the punishment of killing them in melee range.

    Support Core Guardian

    • "Stand Your Ground!": Increased cooldown from 45 seconds to 60 seconds in PvP only.
    • Pure of Heart: Reduced heal scaling from 0.3 to 0.15 in PvP only.
    • Virtue of Resolve: Reduced heal scaling from 1.4 to 1.0 in PvP only.
    • Shield of Judgment: Reduced protection duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.

    Last month we shaved down support Spellbreaker a bit more, which left Core Guardian as the premier support build in the meta. We consider the current state of Core Guardian overtuned relative to where we want support builds to be, and so we’re shaving a few pieces before looking at potential buffs to Tempest and Spellbreaker supports. Part of this decision is due to the general slowness of the meta right now, and as that shifts over time we’ll continue to evaluate the sweet spot for support builds.

    Ventari Revenant

    • Energy Expulsion: Reduced knockback distance from 450 to 100 in PvP only.
    • Blinding Truths: This trait now has an internal cooldown of 10 seconds in PvP only.
    • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

    Ventari Revenant is getting a similar adjustment to its knockback that we made to ranger greatsword - maintaining its crowd control while reducing the decap threat. We’re also taking this opportunity to clean up a troublesome interaction between the low cooldown Ventari heal and Blinding Truths by adding an internal cooldown. Lastly, Surge of the Mists is getting a slight cooldown increase as a general defensive shave across all revenant builds. There are some additional concerns about the overall bulk and sustain of the build even outside of its decap potential - we’ll touch a little more on our plans there near the end of the post.

    Shiro Renegade

    • Charged Mists: Reduced energy gain from 25 to 10 in PvP only.
    • Phase Traversal: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.
    • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

    Renegade has continued to perform well after the changes to its might generation, and we’re making a few follow-up adjustments. Charged Mists stands out as the trait that enables a lot of Renegade’s most powerful sequences while generally breaking the expectations of Revenant energy costs, and we want to bring it down a bit before further evaluating other key pieces of the build. We were considering whether 10 or 15 energy was the right number (or even some unusual numbers in the middle like 12), but we leaned a bit on the heavier side here while not touching too much else. It’s a number that can come back up a little as we evaluate the impact and look at other potential changes. Phase Traversal is getting a slight cooldown increase to reduce both the chase potential and overall map mobility of both Renegade and Herald.

    Power Herald

    • Infuse Light: Reduced duration of damage inversion effect from 3 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP only.
    • Phase Traversal: Increased cooldown from 5 seconds to 12 seconds in PvP only.
    • Surge of the Mists: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.

    In addition to the other general Revenant changes, Herald is also getting a minor adjustment to Infuse Light. Infuse Light is another case that we’re evaluating for a functional change, but in the meantime, we’re taking the opportunity to slightly reduce the duration as another shave to their defensive capabilities.
    We’re being a bit cautious with directly reducing Revenant damage (both here and with Renegade) while looking at speeding up the general pace of the meta.

    Looking Ahead
    The thing most notably missing from today’s update is Scourge. When today’s changes were being finalized internally, Mender Scourge was starting to show some strong results in automated tournaments, but it wasn’t too widely played yet. There was some consideration to whether it warranted early adjustments, but we usually like to gather more data (including reviewing future win rate statistics and observing gameplay) before acting. Ultimately, we decided against rushing anything in for today. Given what we’ve seen since then, it’s something that we want to address sooner rather than later and we’re currently looking into some adjustments for the next release.

    Something else that we’ve been evaluating is the state of Mender Amulet. The general pace of the game right now is slower than we’d like to see. Mender plays a big part in this, both through the strength of the bulkier support builds that have been meta recently (both Spellbreaker and now Core Guardian, compared to previous metas with Tempest) as well as the more sustain-oriented side node builds that tend to stalemate fights. The other main component of combat pacing is the amount of damage available. Looking back at something like pre-nerf grenade Holosmith, for all of the problems it had, it was very good at pushing damage and combating bunker play. We’re wary of bringing damage back up to that level and want to start with some adjustments to sustain before re-evaluating damage.

    To that end, we’re looking at removing Mender and Marshal amulets and adding an improved version of Sigil of Transference (increased outgoing healing) to make up some of the healing loss for support builds. This would also include a few adjustments for healing sources that are most heavily impacted by this shift (notable among those are Selfless Daring and Elemental Bastion, as well as Call of Valor which does not benefit from transference). Overall, some sources would heal allies for a bit more and some would heal for a bit less than they do with Mender, but the self-healing of support builds would be lower. Side node builds that currently play Mender would also be pushed into Avatar amulet, hopefully resulting in fewer stalemates and increased kill potential. We still want dedicated support builds to be a viable choice, and we’d be keeping a close eye on the impact of these changes going forward, but we think that given the current state of the game Mender creates more problems than it solves and it's worth looking at.

    That’s all for today. Thanks for reading, and we’ll see you in-game!

    -The Systems Team

    I just saw this and thought it was extremely funny. It is admission of failure on every level. “We removed all damage options from the game and it is now too bunkerish to the extent that people are playing decap builds.” Solution? Let’s nerf support builds and remove amulets. How did that work out in the past?

    Btw, have you ever played guardian in pve? I dunno how to tell you this, but condi DH is not remotely viable. The fact that it is the prominent guardian build is condi DH using a kitten troll rune, says it all in terms of how much kitten the values damage and sustain in spvp are. How is this not a clear trigger that something is so kitten wrong in the game’s balance system?!

    I want to be constructive, but a year after you burned the old spvp system to the ground, you are telling me the new system is not working well, and resulted in a slow kitten bunkerish hell game play, which is exactly what veteran players told you will happen. And your solution is to do continue nerfing and removing things. Do you know the the definition of insanity?

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2021

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I find it interesting that the communication indicates what Anet is doing to monitor performance. it was always suspected but the language in the OP confirms it. If there is ever a similar approach to communicating with players about PVE, it will be interesting and concerning if meta is what is being used to drive class changes as the performance of a thing at the play levels where meta is relevant do not hold the same significance at non-meta play levels.

    Meta means : highest reward for the least amount of effort, I believe it's obviously the best candidate for balance, not once in the history of this game we had a meta with high risk builds.....not once, every balance patch should always target these builds above anything else

    Yes, that's the 'interesting' part I'm talking about ... clearly in a game where meta ISN'T the balancing target in PVE, the idea they are even looking at it should be concerning because of how it will impact new content. Like always, I suspect that Anet has their own definition for what meta is, based on the language used in the OP; I'm sure many people will be bringing torches and pitchforks if we start seeing some contradictions in meta balancing efforts, even in PVP.

    Meta is definitely the balancing target in PvE! Heck they massacred ele with nerfs for years due to RAIDS, Dungeons :

    -Icebow nerfs due to Dungeon
    -Fireweaver and Staff due to golem benchmark
    etc etc etc

    And yes I can believe and expect people to be outraged if they nerf anything but meta, I would be one of those people taking up torches and pitchforks, that's how you balance your game....really try to keep it afloat for one more year. The most hilarious part though it's those people getting angry and the balance patches when they don't work in their favor.

    Nerf spellbreaker...nerf mirage...nerf weaver...nerf ranger....nerf holosmith and suddenly you see 3 revs per team during an AT final...then they nerf the rev and :"oh now rev is dead...other professions are still OP though"..kitten?!

    It's time for people to realize that the more you nerf your counter...the more nerfs you will receive after

    **The core where it started : **

    • You can guess who was responsible and how clever all this was but fact is people were constantly complain about Ele I saw that too.

    They always pushed against the cast build who done more dmg in the past at some point the developers were listing to them.
    To understand this people should know that the cast build have slower ramp up time(burst), lower hp, light armor, complicated rotation, at least this right for ele and mesmer , necro is a bit different.

    What they pushed for in result(because you want the opposite) was that heavy armour, simple rota, high hp with high burst make the same dmg or even more dmg then cast builds. Something like Burn DH was what they always wanted . This is not all true all at the same time always a but you can see the direction, Flame-thrower Holo is a similar problem.

    Ele Situation :
    *
    We are screwed . I mean my main is also ele which I played in all game modes.
    Only on the edge it is still accepted what I mean with this is :

    PvP ) Power Weaver was seen somewhere around 2019 I think since then not, Condi Weaver you see sometimes but to get it to make an impact you need to be an insane good player which needs constantly watch his boons.

    Which means it is not an viable option for AT if you take them serious. I play because of the changes to the fire trait/might generation Condi Tempest which I call Ying-Yang Evil Karma build. (You can guess why it got the name)^^

    Basically to summarize Power Weaver not viable, Power Tempest not viable, Core ELe not viable, Condi Weaver just viable for a few and not Meta in anyway, My YYEK I would say is viable but not meta (also not public).

    WvW.)
    For Roamer roughly the same as for SPvP and Heal Tempest since the shout nerf not Meta any more(only guild intern). Staff Weaver is also out of meta for the most part because guild with their near perma superspeed can 'evade' all pulsing dmg (which is for the most part come from cast builds). With evade I mean you move straight trough it and the server says there is nobody only when you are unlucky you get hit.(and then you have still aegis on you)

    PvE and I go deeper into traits (all modes)) :'(:'(:'(
    It is still meta for DRM and t4 fractal and open world . The problem is power weaver is out for CM fractals and raids because of the low burst in compare to Soulbeast but also doesn't over boons like others and also needs like no other build. Sound like a mystery?

    1.)They lowered the burst of ele by changing how Persisting flames work because it takes 10sec until you have the full 10% extra dmg. Which makes the disadvantage in burst even greater then it already previously already was.

    2.) It only a side not Ele has with the wind trait line not a reliable source for fury Raging Storm generate for 2s fury but it internal cooldown is 3s .This is mentionable because HFB also can only give a small burst of fury . Also mentionable is that Stormsoul and raging Storm are equally increase dmg by 10% but Stormsoul is only viable in pre-made groups(static). What this also tells is that golem DPS and real DPS in not comparable because you have perma boons in the trainings area. Other classes in Meta can keep up their fury up on their own

    3)
    On the other side Soulbeast has 2x the bust of most other classes and if we talk about power dmg in fractals. Pre nerf Weaver was able to get to the level of DH and BS by pre buffing tons of stuff which doesn't help to bring it up to this level any more..

    4.)I must confess this all comes only hard to case when you play without healer or others said when you really hard optimize which goes further then Arena.Net can imagine. In the past qFB first as condi then as power was used now even this is too fancy qDH is the new kid on the block .

    What basically happens it that guilds try to skip more and more on boon duration which hurt potential the ele because low quickness(it still a cast build) and low alacrity(attunement change) hurt the build on the other said the lower and lower burst duration doesn't let play out Weavers sustain dmg so that we have already reach the point where Ele is viable any more for this kind of content.

    5) Ah nearly forgot what is with condi builds.? Besides way to complex the different between golem and out there strikes again. In theory condi weaver is really strong but cFB is just stronger with his ability to reset Tomb of Justice and SoJ and what really breaks it with each cFB the dps in general increase because they buff each other with Ash of Justice . I heard in raids they can go up to 30 stacks~. So nobody use Condi Weaver except perhaps for personal challenge.

    Summarize: for farming it is till good enough built for everything remotely competitive it is not viable any more