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Why does WvW have the worst reward structure?

Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 1, 2021 in WvW

I really hate how back-loaded the skirmish tracks are. Mathing it out it will take me a ridiculous amount of time to earn the legendaries from WvW on my current schedule. I could probably swing sPVP but wouldn't have much fun. It's kind of crazy that 3 chests in you're making almost double your first chest as far as those blasted tickets go (at least it feels that way).

sPVP is weird because it's bimodal, the 2 chests just before the top one have some pretty bad pip/ascended shard ratios but the top one I believe is slightly better. So if you're casual you earn things in a catchup amount of time, but if you no-life it, your'e rewarded too.

I like that the WvW tracks go faster as you rank up, but my rank won't hit cap before I get the tickets I need, and it'll probably be years before I see a significant increase in pips/tick. I might quit the game before that.

I dont want to talk about raiding but I'll mention raiding beats both PVP and WvW handily if you have a static that can reliably clear some bosses. Each boss would take a maximum of 10 minutes, and the value of a single LI/LD is pretty high in terms of time spent vs % completion of a legendary in that context vs other forms of progression.

I'm just starting to feel miffed because the most efficient progression comes from game modes I have trouble motivating myself to do (or finding people to do them with). And on paper, GW2 is raid or die if you consider the time progression value in the presence of a static and you're concerned about legendary armor progression. ON paper the resource caps are very similar in terms of gating, but in practice WvW and PVP are really grindy, with WvW being particularly atrocious.

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Comments

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    Yeah, right now, you don't play WvW for the rewards. You play it because you like it and that's about it...
    I agree though, for a casual player, the rewards are just not there and that's the only incentive for some people.
    Really dedicated players do get tickets, and repeated diamond tracks get you mats but it also doesn't feel balanced to the time they're spending in the game compared to rewards they'd get if they spent the same amount of time in literally any other game mode.

    Yeah this is my problem. And I don't like the other game modes. Also I like the WvW armors the best.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    Because WVW was supposed to be the 24/7 endgame content unlike weekly timegated raids (which didn't exist at launch) , dungeons (no longer "supported"), fractals (soft-gated at daily), or any openworld meta reward. The problem is after megaservers , linking, then they added raiding... and people then compare speedclears which aren't the average player.

    I said 10 minutes in my calculation. That's a standard clear of not hitting an enrage timer with no wips, a static should be able to do that regularly at some point, though you're right, it can go much faster.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2021

    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    Also, i'd argue that - Legendary armor is more of a WvW endgame thing rather than PvE because WvW uses much more diverse stats and combinations than PvE ever did, so if anything, WvW legendary armor should fall into the category of "WvW mode specific items" even though it can be used everywhere. The fact that acquiring it is so insulting to people's time is well... Insulting... Remember, even if people don't clear all raids per week, they're still going to get their full set +achievement collections WAY faster than an average WvW player that barely finishes Gold per week. And that's uncompareable. This should be addressed. But not just for armor, for skirmish tickets in general, there's infusions to be had with those and other WvW specific items that you're just not getting if you don't 24/7 in the mode (which - even if people want to, they mostly can't due to RL commintments and priorities). The whole skirmish ticket system is also just very backwards. You'll start getting them by the time you no longer need them for anything. And then they're useless. So additional items, probably WvW related should be made able to purchase with them.

    Again, the time required to be "rewarded" in any other game mode is in great disbalance compared to WvW. PvP might be up there too, but i can't comment on that because i don't play it.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I really hate how back-loaded the skirmish tracks are. Mathing it out it will take me a ridiculous amount of time to earn the legendaries from WvW on my current schedule. I could probably swing sPVP but wouldn't have much fun. It's kind of crazy that 3 chests in you're making almost double your first chest as far as those blasted tickets go (at least it feels that way).

    sPVP is weird because it's bimodal, the 2 chests just before the top one have some pretty bad pip/ascended shard ratios but the top one I believe is slightly better. So if you're casual you earn things in a catchup amount of time, but if you no-life it, your'e rewarded too.

    In wvw youre rewarded if you afk. Literally.

    I like that the WvW tracks go faster as you rank up, but my rank won't hit cap before I get the tickets I need, and it'll probably be years before I see a significant increase in pips/tick. I might quit the game before that.

    Rank has absolutely nothing to do with reward track progress. A diamond gains as many points per tick as a bronze. Ticket progress is another thing, anet increased base pips for eveyone at some point. Otherwise, afking in outnumbered maps makes you gain tickets as if you were a diamond rank player. Out of curiosity, what's your rank?

    I dont want to talk about raiding but I'll mention raiding beats both PVP and WvW handily if you have a static that can reliably clear some bosses. Each boss would take a maximum of 10 minutes, and the value of a single LI/LD is pretty high in terms of time spent vs % completion of a legendary in that context vs other forms of progression.

    By the time you actually do manage to kill a raidboss in 10 minutes, you will have to have invested MANY hours in training to learn HOW to kill said boss in 10 minutes. Not solo, like youre in wvw and gain your pips, but with 9 other people. Good luck with that!

    I'm just starting to feel miffed because the most efficient progression comes from game modes I have trouble motivating myself to do (or finding people to do them with). And on paper, GW2 is raid or die if you consider the time progression value in the presence of a static and you're concerned about legendary armor progression. ON paper the resource caps are very similar in terms of gating, but in practice WvW and PVP are really grindy, with WvW being particularly atrocious.

    So... What is your suggestion? Apart from complaining, how would you make legendary armor acquisition "fair"? I cant raid, real life issues prevent me from getting some prestigious skins. Should anet dumb it down for me? Should i get triple LI because i am new at raiding, and not too successful at it? How would it devalue the time, money and effort spent by others who are now labeled as "veteran raiders"?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I really hate how back-loaded the skirmish tracks are. Mathing it out it will take me a ridiculous amount of time to earn the legendaries from WvW on my current schedule. I could probably swing sPVP but wouldn't have much fun. It's kind of crazy that 3 chests in you're making almost double your first chest as far as those blasted tickets go (at least it feels that way).

    sPVP is weird because it's bimodal, the 2 chests just before the top one have some pretty bad pip/ascended shard ratios but the top one I believe is slightly better. So if you're casual you earn things in a catchup amount of time, but if you no-life it, your'e rewarded too.

    In wvw youre rewarded if you afk. Literally.

    What game are you playing? Your pips for the legendary armors are tied to participation. In fact if you're not level 5 or above you get none. You have to do something every now and then. And if you're roaming and someone is ganking you, preventing you from doing anything, you can actually lose participation and not get anything. Rare, but it can happen.

    I like that the WvW tracks go faster as you rank up, but my rank won't hit cap before I get the tickets I need, and it'll probably be years before I see a significant increase in pips/tick. I might quit the game before that.

    Rank has absolutely nothing to do with reward track progress. A diamond gains as many points per tick as a bronze. Ticket progress is another thing, anet increased base pips for eveyone at some point. Otherwise, afking in outnumbered maps makes you gain tickets as if you were a diamond rank player. Out of curiosity, what's your rank?

    I'm talking about skirmishes not the normal reward track. Google "WvW skirmish track" I think we're talking about 2 different things.

    I dont want to talk about raiding but I'll mention raiding beats both PVP and WvW handily if you have a static that can reliably clear some bosses. Each boss would take a maximum of 10 minutes, and the value of a single LI/LD is pretty high in terms of time spent vs % completion of a legendary in that context vs other forms of progression.

    By the time you actually do manage to kill a raidboss in 10 minutes, you will have to have invested MANY hours in training to learn HOW to kill said boss in 10 minutes. Not solo, like youre in wvw and gain your pips, but with 9 other people. Good luck with that!

    This is only true for the really hard bosses. Even casually downing 5-6 of the easier ones could give you an armor set in a year. If I had a static, that wouldn't be an issue, I know which encounters etc. are easier. Hell even if you wiped a few times you'd still be crushing other means.

    I'm just starting to feel miffed because the most efficient progression comes from game modes I have trouble motivating myself to do (or finding people to do them with). And on paper, GW2 is raid or die if you consider the time progression value in the presence of a static and you're concerned about legendary armor progression. ON paper the resource caps are very similar in terms of gating, but in practice WvW and PVP are really grindy, with WvW being particularly atrocious.

    So... What is your suggestion? Apart from complaining, how would you make legendary armor acquisition "fair"? I cant raid, real life issues prevent me from getting some prestigious skins. Should anet dumb it down for me? Should i get triple LI because i am new at raiding, and not too successful at it? How would it devalue the time, money and effort spent by others who are now labeled as "veteran raiders"?

    I would at least just flatten the Skirmish track skirmish tickets, instead of backloading them. I wouldn't immediately advocate accelerating them because rank does give you more pips per tick, but instead of backloading them and encouraging no-lifing it I'd flatten ticket gain per pip across chests. That's really the biggest issue imo. I would also crunch pip/h against an average sPVP queue and make sure the % legendary material/h is equal between the two for a given armor set for an average player. I don't think it's that hard. I just think it's insane they attach the most value to the least enjoyable game modes. If I could form a static for raiding, I would. That's really why hardcore raiders play in progression statics at least.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I really hate how back-loaded the skirmish tracks are. Mathing it out it will take me a ridiculous amount of time to earn the legendaries from WvW on my current schedule. I could probably swing sPVP but wouldn't have much fun. It's kind of crazy that 3 chests in you're making almost double your first chest as far as those blasted tickets go (at least it feels that way).

    sPVP is weird because it's bimodal, the 2 chests just before the top one have some pretty bad pip/ascended shard ratios but the top one I believe is slightly better. So if you're casual you earn things in a catchup amount of time, but if you no-life it, your'e rewarded too.

    In wvw youre rewarded if you afk. Literally.

    What game are you playing? Your pips for the legendary armors are tied to participation. In fact if you're not level 5 or above you get none. You have to do something every now and then. And if you're roaming and someone is ganking you, preventing you from doing anything, you can actually lose participation and not get anything. Rare, but it can happen.

    I like that the WvW tracks go faster as you rank up, but my rank won't hit cap before I get the tickets I need, and it'll probably be years before I see a significant increase in pips/tick. I might quit the game before that.

    Rank has absolutely nothing to do with reward track progress. A diamond gains as many points per tick as a bronze. Ticket progress is another thing, anet increased base pips for eveyone at some point. Otherwise, afking in outnumbered maps makes you gain tickets as if you were a diamond rank player. Out of curiosity, what's your rank?

    I'm talking about skirmishes not the normal reward track. Google "WvW skirmish track" I think we're talking about 2 different things.

    I dont want to talk about raiding but I'll mention raiding beats both PVP and WvW handily if you have a static that can reliably clear some bosses. Each boss would take a maximum of 10 minutes, and the value of a single LI/LD is pretty high in terms of time spent vs % completion of a legendary in that context vs other forms of progression.

    By the time you actually do manage to kill a raidboss in 10 minutes, you will have to have invested MANY hours in training to learn HOW to kill said boss in 10 minutes. Not solo, like youre in wvw and gain your pips, but with 9 other people. Good luck with that!

    This is only true for the really hard bosses. Even casually downing 5-6 of the easier ones could give you an armor set in a year. If I had a static, that wouldn't be an issue, I know which encounters etc. are easier. Hell even if you wiped a few times you'd still be crushing other means.

    I'm just starting to feel miffed because the most efficient progression comes from game modes I have trouble motivating myself to do (or finding people to do them with). And on paper, GW2 is raid or die if you consider the time progression value in the presence of a static and you're concerned about legendary armor progression. ON paper the resource caps are very similar in terms of gating, but in practice WvW and PVP are really grindy, with WvW being particularly atrocious.

    So... What is your suggestion? Apart from complaining, how would you make legendary armor acquisition "fair"? I cant raid, real life issues prevent me from getting some prestigious skins. Should anet dumb it down for me? Should i get triple LI because i am new at raiding, and not too successful at it? How would it devalue the time, money and effort spent by others who are now labeled as "veteran raiders"?

    I would at least just flatten the Skirmish track skirmish tickets, instead of backloading them. I wouldn't immediately advocate accelerating them because rank does give you more pips per tick, but instead of backloading them and encouraging no-lifing it I'd flatten ticket gain per pip across chests. That's really the biggest issue imo. I would also crunch pip/h against an average sPVP queue and make sure the % legendary material/h is equal between the two for a given armor set for an average player. I don't think it's that hard. I just think it's insane they attach the most value to the least enjoyable game modes. If I could form a static for raiding, I would. That's really why hardcore raiders play in progression statics at least.

    Participation Tier 3 means pips, not tier 5. You can keep participation t6 by capping a camp every 10 mins, hence the afking.
    I get it, we all do, youre relatively new to wvw (thats why you dont mention rank, probably) the EZ mode for leggy armor. Keep in mind that this is a game, for all purposes it is supposed to bring you FUN. If you have an issue with "the least enjoyable game modes", petition for an OW leggy armor set, make your suggestions.
    Personally, i enjoy wvw. Tickets come with playing what i enjoy. The "no-lifing" part is YOUR issue.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not that WvW rewards aren't kitten, but I don't think it's fair comparing having a raid static to pugging WvW. It's also much easier to gain rewards with an organized guild.

    I'm assuming you don't have a wvw guild.

  • Solanum.6983Solanum.6983 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    WvW rewards system is so strange to me.
    The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    WvW rewards system is so strange to me.
    The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

    Probably because they don't want to force players into a specific playstyle. One thing that makes WvW great is the freedom and variety it offers to the players and the reward system should not work against that. The current reward system is certainly not optimal, but it is very hard to provide fair and not too easily exploitable rewards.

    Generally i think WvW is not something that should be played primarily for rewards, as reward farming is usually all about minimising effort and risk, which leads to as little interaction with opposing players as possible and that's the opposite of what WvW is supposd to be.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    WvW rewards system is so strange to me.
    The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

    Probably because they don't want to force players into a specific playstyle. One thing that makes WvW great is the freedom and variety it offers to the players and the reward system should not work against that. The current reward system is certainly not optimal, but it is very hard to provide fair and not too easily exploitable rewards.

    Generally i think WvW is not something that should be played primarily for rewards, as reward farming is usually all about minimising effort and risk, which leads to as little interaction with opposing players as possible and that's the opposite of what WvW is supposd to be.

    you are 100% correct. if you tie rewards to holding stuff ppl will just play tower ranger and never leave the keep, get rewarded for pew pewing the few roamers down 1v5 and 2v5 etc. and you already get participation for capping stuff so ..

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

  • Jaykay.9641Jaykay.9641 Member ✭✭

    I understand this is a frequently talked about topic, but IMO, something needs to be changed to the reward system. I agree with OP that I find myself less motivated to play WvW for rewards purposes than the other game modes. I've been grinding sPvP lately so I can get Legendary Armor at a more reasonable rate of time and get the gold needed for the materials.

    The thing that benefits me as a player in sPvP more is that it isn't weekly time gated. It's a 2 month season where I can semi-casually play and reach the last tier of rewards every season. This isn't possible for me in WvW. If I feel like I can't dump a decent amount of time in WvW that week, it almost seems like a waste of play time (from a rewards perspective).

    Is there anyway WvW can be turned into seasonal rewards tracks like sPvP that syncs with the re-links? Then maybe have special events for the 2 week mini-season? In this way, the elite players can repeat the last track for nice rewards but players that can't play alot of hours ever week can still get decent rewards by climbing the reward track over time. We can still have the weekly matchups and your participation the prior week can still affect your pip-rate the following week. Then maybe at the end of the 2 month season, players can be rewarded for how many pips they contributed along with the normal reward track. I'm sure they'll be ways for players to exploit this, but is something like this feasible?

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

    Yes, your thread! :smile:

    Yes, we totally need a way to trade the items we get by default that have no use. Some people grind GoB for clovers and obsidian, others will fight a lot and have tons of emblems of avenger, PPT people will get more emblems of the conqueror probably etc., and they just at one point just start piling up with no use. And just deleting something in this game feels really bad. Avenger emblems are cool for tracking your kills but that should be an automated UI thing, not an item, but i digress.

    (BTW is bumping against the rules? I'd bump your thread but i don't want it deleted.)

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

    Yes, your thread! :smile:

    Yes, we totally need a way to trade the items we get by default that have no use. Some people grind GoB for clovers and obsidian, others will fight a lot and have tons of emblems of avenger, PPT people will get more emblems of the conqueror probably etc., and they just at one point just start piling up with no use. And just deleting something in this game feels really bad. Avenger emblems are cool for tracking your kills but that should be an automated UI thing, not an item, but i digress.

    (BTW is bumping against the rules? I'd bump your thread but i don't want it deleted.)

    You have my express permission to go necro that thread and add any commentary you want. Tag all the Anet forum devs you want to your little heart's desire.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

    Yes, your thread! :smile:

    Yes, we totally need a way to trade the items we get by default that have no use. Some people grind GoB for clovers and obsidian, others will fight a lot and have tons of emblems of avenger, PPT people will get more emblems of the conqueror probably etc., and they just at one point just start piling up with no use. And just deleting something in this game feels really bad. Avenger emblems are cool for tracking your kills but that should be an automated UI thing, not an item, but i digress.

    (BTW is bumping against the rules? I'd bump your thread but i don't want it deleted.)

    You have my express permission to go necro that thread and add any commentary you want. Tag all the Anet forum devs you want to your little heart's desire.

    Hey, tagging Anet might be a good idea though! :smile:

  • Lan Deathrider.5910Lan Deathrider.5910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

    Yes, your thread! :smile:

    Yes, we totally need a way to trade the items we get by default that have no use. Some people grind GoB for clovers and obsidian, others will fight a lot and have tons of emblems of avenger, PPT people will get more emblems of the conqueror probably etc., and they just at one point just start piling up with no use. And just deleting something in this game feels really bad. Avenger emblems are cool for tracking your kills but that should be an automated UI thing, not an item, but i digress.

    (BTW is bumping against the rules? I'd bump your thread but i don't want it deleted.)

    You have my express permission to go necro that thread and add any commentary you want. Tag all the Anet forum devs you want to your little heart's desire.

    Hey, tagging Anet might be a good idea though! :smile:

    By all means have at it.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:
    There was one thread in WvW that suggested we get to trade GoB and other stuff for some WvW and general items like converting sometihng to skirmish tickets to buy WvW stuff with, etc. Kinda like @Infusion.7149 suggested. That would help greatly to establish "mode specific" rewards he's talking about (as skirmish tickets mostly give you WvW stuff).

    But i can't find it anymore, it's probably buried by now.

    You mean my thread?

    Here let me shamelessly plug it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/121597/add-in-daily-weekly-and-monthly-vendors-into-wvw

    That thread was for exchanging GoBs, and Emblems for Memories of Battle, Skirmish Tickets, Mystic Coins, and Mystic Clovers at various amounts via a daily vendor, a weekly vendor, and a monthly vendor. The point was to have a means of trading some of the rewards we all build up over time for something more concrete and tailored to several different needs. Some people need Memories of Battle, some need Skirmish Tickets, some need Clovers, and some just need the Coins. There were higher exchange amounts on the monthly vendor so people with large hoards could offload some of it, but only once a month to limit supply shocks.

    Yes, your thread! :smile:

    Yes, we totally need a way to trade the items we get by default that have no use. Some people grind GoB for clovers and obsidian, others will fight a lot and have tons of emblems of avenger, PPT people will get more emblems of the conqueror probably etc., and they just at one point just start piling up with no use. And just deleting something in this game feels really bad. Avenger emblems are cool for tracking your kills but that should be an automated UI thing, not an item, but i digress.

    (BTW is bumping against the rules? I'd bump your thread but i don't want it deleted.)

    You have my express permission to go necro that thread and add any commentary you want. Tag all the Anet forum devs you want to your little heart's desire.

    Hey, tagging Anet might be a good idea though! :smile:

    By all means have at it.

    Done. :smile:

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Jaykay.9641 said:
    I understand this is a frequently talked about topic, but IMO, something needs to be changed to the reward system. I agree with OP that I find myself less motivated to play WvW for rewards purposes than the other game modes. I've been grinding sPvP lately so I can get Legendary Armor at a more reasonable rate of time and get the gold needed for the materials.

    The thing that benefits me as a player in sPvP more is that it isn't weekly time gated. It's a 2 month season where I can semi-casually play and reach the last tier of rewards every season. This isn't possible for me in WvW. If I feel like I can't dump a decent amount of time in WvW that week, it almost seems like a waste of play time (from a rewards perspective).

    Is there anyway WvW can be turned into seasonal rewards tracks like sPvP that syncs with the re-links? Then maybe have special events for the 2 week mini-season? In this way, the elite players can repeat the last track for nice rewards but players that can't play alot of hours ever week can still get decent rewards by climbing the reward track over time. We can still have the weekly matchups and your participation the prior week can still affect your pip-rate the following week. Then maybe at the end of the 2 month season, players can be rewarded for how many pips they contributed along with the normal reward track. I'm sure they'll be ways for players to exploit this, but is something like this feasible?

    The amount of WvW pips you accumulated at the end of a week is recorded. It currently is of no use.

    The never-ending gold reward in ranked SPVP is what has led to boting because there isn't diminishing returns. If it were up to me I would just auto-flag every account with an obscene amount of games in a season (if a game takes 10 minutes on average since you need time to queue then someone with thousands of games is highly likely to be a bot).

    I find WvW more fun than PvP because you can choose who you wish to play with more or less and unless a server is "dead" you have activity at all times of the day. In sPvP unless you play unranked or ATs you don't have that luxury , 2v2 and 3v3 Deathmatch is a seasonal mode that has its own balance problems and botters/exploiters. Even if you play ATs or unranked you have to babysit the circles, which is less interesting of a mechanic than attacking or defending a structure IMO. There's also the time constraint involved, if you are going to play a full AT it is going to be roughly an hour with breaks in between depending on the matchup outcomes (i.e. if you get matched vs a top 10 try-hard team). Stronghold is existent only in unranked and is primarily based off the NPCs as you can't siege the objective yourself.

    One of my friends that is a commander (that is on JQ now) actually started WvW years ago (2017-2018ish) because they didn't want to deal with raiding and find repetition of PvE mind-numbingly boring. So the idea that WvW legendary armor is too tedious isn't actually 100% true. People are more willing to play a mode they enjoy (key point) for a longer time than to put up with multiple hour training groups for raids with people that just want the rewards. If you treat WvW as "work" as original poster stated then yes it will be long and tedious. If your true goal is to wipe out the entire map and turn it your color, defend a T3 SMC tooth and nail until the next reset, or if you're a PPK guild to acquire 100 emblem of the avenger (which have no use beyond the first few) by the end the week as a personal goal, suddenly the hours of play doesn't seem so tedious.

    So long as someone is willing to put in a modicum of effort to play a worthwhile build in WvW and pay attention to people that know what they are doing there shouldn't be an issue in picking it up. Capping and defending is an intuitive mechanic. The minutiae may take time to pick up and the WvW masteries deserve to be nerfed to <1000 rank but that is a separate issue.

    To put it into perspective , how many people play 12+ hours in sPVP in a day that aren't bots or streamers (lol the esports dream)? How many people play WvW 12+ hours straight on reset weekend? I would say quite a few people. To add to that, I highly doubt raiders have that sort of dedication because speed is the goal (not the destination) unless it's a training group. After one or two wipes you're more likely to have people drop in PVE than in WVW. In WVW you see primarily PvE guilds wipe repeatedly and hop maps, but almost always fulfill their planned or scheduled time-slot.

    edit: also WvW is the closest thing we have to GvG and "Guild Wars".

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's been a lot of judgements and statements about me here that isn't accurate.

    1) Yes, i'm a member of a wvw guild but that doesn't solve the time investment issue. It's kind of insulting really how much they expect you to play in 1 week if you want all the available tickets. Let alone getting gold which is probably the sanest baseline if you want to earn it before you quit the game

    2) I'm not there for easy leggies. If i wanted them i'd literally do anything else. But i don't find them as fun.

    Someone said i didn't talk about rank contributing when i did. Getting to 10k rank would take longer than earning the rewards and i've been barely playing wvw for 3 months and have 100 rank. This is with me using ley energy matter converter and karmic converter for rank as well, at this rate i might hit 10k in 30 years.

    In theory if I wanted to be super effective at wvw i'd grind pvp for years before messing around there because as stated earlier, wvw requires more diverse stat sets than literally any other game mode.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solanum.6983 said:
    WvW rewards system is so strange to me.
    The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

    They worry it'll become a EotM-style loot roundabout.

    This post contains my opinion.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what shall i say, it's sad yeah. time and skill investment into Wvw is getting a nearly zero payout and leveling and any single kill happening happens way slower than it used to be, unless u play some scammy glasscannon.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So many people defend the mediocrity of the loot obtained through the game mode. But the base problem is if people do not feel that their time is valued they stop playing the game mode. Everyone here shops for the better value for their money and in video games peoples time is just as valuable as money. "Time is money" expression comes to mind. Most people have goals and if takes a noticeable amount of time longer to get to where you are going people start to go to other areas to obtain their goals faster.

    The reward for WvW shouldn't be just playing WvW itself. That excuse is lacking and uninspired. Players should not be penalized because of the game mode they enjoy. No matter what game mode that may be.

    Its funny when you think about how many people work on WvW. I believe they do not have a true team dedicated to the game mode because the game mode is dying (my opinion). But the game mode is dying because of their lack of staff. In order for changes to be made to make loot worth while would require them to actually acknowledge the game mode as important and devote a staff into making the proper adjustments to make the rewards more lucrative and desirable.

    While I hope one day Anet will do the right thing, I am not going to hold my breath.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    Anet thinks wvw players would spend more time semi afk than playing for their rewards, heck we originally had achievements that were calculated to take years to achieve. Yet they give participation to wall repairing and siege damage which just promotes that very thing, it should just be on just kills or caps, to always promote active game play. On the flip side they also have to worry about mass killings that players would just plan, like in OS when they just farmed the ultimate dominator title, or old eotm, hence why rewards have been gated to tracks instead of drops.

    And not only do they give you one time gate with skirmish tickets, oh no no, you need memories of battle for the gear which is mostly from skirmish rewards and reward tracks, and also requiring you to unlock tiers of gear of reward track/exotic/ascended levels, with the sublime level needing 1200 500 wvw ranks also. Notice how a bunch of the living story ascended trinkets requires two currencies you can just freely farm in those zones? where is that for wvw ascended trinkets at the very least? Or at least change some currencies from memories of battle to testimonies of heroics?

    Meanwhile bots afk farm in pve...

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Anet thinks wvw players would spend more time semi afk than playing for their rewards, heck we originally had achievements that were calculated to take years to achieve. Yet they give participation to wall repairing and siege damage which just promotes that very thing, it should just be on just kills or caps, to always promote active game play. On the flip side they also have to worry about mass killings that players would just plan, like in OS when they just farmed the ultimate dominator title, or old eotm, hence why rewards have been gated to tracks instead of drops.

    And not only do they give you one time gate with skirmish tickets, oh no no, you need memories of battle for the gear which is mostly from skirmish rewards and reward tracks, and also requiring you to unlock tiers of gear of reward track/exotic/ascended levels, with the sublime level needing 1200 wvw ranks also. Notice how a bunch of the living story ascended trinkets requires two currencies you can just freely farm in those zones? where is that for wvw ascended trinkets at the very least? Or at least change some currencies from memories of battle to testimonies of heroics?

    Meanwhile bots afk farm in pve...

    Sublime chest needs 500 ranks.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2021

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Sublime chest needs 500 ranks.

    Oh yeah, maybe I was thinking 1200 as it was around the rank I was when they announced the change last year.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • frareanselm.1925frareanselm.1925 Member ✭✭✭

    The Grandmaster mark shard issue is CRAZY. You need a month playing WvW to obtain a complete mark, while in PvP you dont have to wait and can earn it in one day! This is not balanced Anet!

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @frareanselm.1925 said:
    The Grandmaster mark shard issue is CRAZY. You need a month playing WvW to obtain a complete mark, while in PvP you dont have to wait and can earn it in one day! This is not balanced Anet!

    While i completely agree with you. Luckily you can craft those...

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @frareanselm.1925 said:
    The Grandmaster mark shard issue is CRAZY. You need a month playing WvW to obtain a complete mark, while in PvP you dont have to wait and can earn it in one day! This is not balanced Anet!

    While i completely agree with you. Luckily you can craft those...

    You can, but in order to do so, you need 500 in their respective crafting discipline, plus you need the materials for crafting. So, for someone that exclusively plays WvW, crafting them is just as time consuming, or more, depending on your luck, plus what and how much materials you manage to get from synths and reward tracks. Add to that the fact that most commanders and groups don't bother with synths and don't stop to collect them and well... You get the idea.

    It's funny how basically every game mode is self sufficient AND enough to gear for other game modes (especially PvP which doesn't use standard armor sets, yet allows you to gear your characters for PvE), except WvW which is just "kind of " self sufficient - as in - you can exclusively play WvW and be "geared" but only in a grindy amount of months.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I would at least just flatten the Skirmish track skirmish tickets, instead of backloading them. I wouldn't immediately advocate accelerating them because rank does give you more pips per tick, but instead of backloading them and encouraging no-lifing it I'd flatten ticket gain per pip across chests. That's really the biggest issue imo. I would also crunch pip/h against an average sPVP queue and make sure the % legendary material/h is equal between the two for a given armor set for an average player. I don't think it's that hard. I just think it's insane they attach the most value to the least enjoyable game modes. If I could form a static for raiding, I would. That's really why hardcore raiders play in progression statics at least.

    Frankly, this is probably the best idea i've heard in a long time.
    The system as it is - while i understand the idea behind it (reward more dedicated people) - is literally punishing to people with limited game time, and people new to the game mode. Which in turn - turns away newbies that would like to do WvW, but feel like their time is wasted reward wise. Especially because of the almost insulting amount of time newbies have to spend in WvW in order to finish diamond let alone repeat it. It's understandable in theory but it doesn't work in practice, and if anything, they should flatten the ticket gain across all tiers so that, even if some people can't spend the required amount of time for diamond, they can at least steadily gain tickets to get the WvW rewards. That way, newbies aren't being treated as low class citizens, while veterans with their rank bonuses and dedicated people aren't shortchanged for their dedication.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wouldn't mind if they added the extra pips for rank a bit earlier. A new player is getting what, 5 pips on average?

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuks.8241 said:
    I wouldn't mind if they added the extra pips for rank a bit earlier. A new player is getting what, 5 pips on average?

    Yeah, that too... There's just no way for a new player to finish diamond except playing every day for hours in WvW. Most people can't afford that kind of playstyle.

    I mean, a new player needs to play 40 hours a week if they have the bad luck of being the last server in the matchup, and if they are the starting rank.
    That's borderline insulting... This is supposed to be a game, not a job.
    Sure, it goes down with commitment modifier and more ranks, but i wonder how many people just said "lol no" when they saw the treatment and went to play other modes instead.

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2021

    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    Guild Wars 2 is a PVE game. Thinking ANET cares about any other game mode is just adorable.

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

    They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

    Things arent that simple.
    It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.
    Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.
    I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

    They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

    And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

    Butsrs.

    There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's kinda like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.
    So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    The keep trading thing could be rectified by only additional rewards for T3 keeps.

    Kill trading for loot purposes and WXP has already been limited by diminishing returns.

  • Sylvyn.4750Sylvyn.4750 Member ✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

    They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

    And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

    Butsrs.

    There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's kinda like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.
    So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

    Good point...we haven't seen it get to that point in WvW yet, but it's a possibility.

  • @Solanum.6983 said:
    WvW rewards system is so strange to me.
    The rewards in general are very low in comparison to other game modes and I don't get why they decided to tie it so heavily to time spent in game over anything else, I wish they'd change the system to reward capping and defending and holding objectives more.

    Playtime & numbers are highly important to WvW health. More so than ktraining. AKA capping objectives.
    It actually makes sense when you put it in that context.

    Like yeah, you could AFK for quite a while after a raid. Hell, during non-peak times most wouldn't even blame you for doing so.
    But the fact that you're in game, and in the mode. Means if your keep is attacked, even if you're half AFK, you're likely to help out.

    Player psychology is an important thing to keep in mind.

    Can the forum devs please make the dev tracker actually usable. No one wants to see posts in which a dev has commented on 2 months ago pop up just because some random person commented on it today.

    Why are we put here, just to suffer?

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2021

    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    Abuse from people that tell you how to play is not a reason to change a class in a game that is designed and works to allow you to play how you want.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Sylvyn.4750 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:
    The last thing WvW needs right now is to become the new champ train for reward seekers

    They could decrease the grind by 50% and it would still be too much for those wanting champ train style rewards. I know, I know, you'd like to be able to tell your grandkids that you had to walk from your home BL keep to Stonemist in EBG in knee-deep snow without a Warclaw or Swiftness, and it was an uphill battle both ways...

    And we didn't have shoes because pa needed somewhere to keep the hogs from freezing.

    Butsrs.

    There's this thing that was a thing in previous RvR games called keep trading. It's kinda like a karma train, where sides just flip each others stuff in rotation... Used to be how EoTM ran too.. And it murders actual competition (like how EoTM is now) when the rewards are reduced and the champ train moves on to the next shiny.
    So, when we talk about increasing passive rewards, we also have to factor in the possible maximum rewards for EoTM style keep trading.. If that number ever reaches anything near what's achievable in PvE, the keep trading starts. And like locusts, they leave a barren husk of an EoTM in their wake.

    Good point...we haven't seen it get to that point in WvW yet, but it's a possibility.

    We did, in eotm.
    There was a point where doing actual pvp in eotm was referred to as griefing or harrassment. It's a lesson history will happily repeat at the merest rumor of WvW having a good GPH return.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Restricting food to the provisioner and making the privisioner free and then just having a random skin unlock track/reward for the various currencies would go really, really far to be honest.

    As it stands the problem with WvW isn't the rewards themselves insofar as the high upkeep cost to play that can only be provided from doing and spending money on PvE.
    It's also that PvE rewards have been crept pretty hard, and the login rewards permanent gold boosters are starting to really add up these days, causing people to get WAY more raw cash than intended, inflating prices.

    Foods and other bonuses like Karka potions etc. are so significant that it creates a bigger disparity than a good chunk of armors, and most adults just don't have the time to sink tons of time into PvE in order to play the PvP content they want when PvP-centric games already exist.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Restricting food to the provisioner and making the privisioner free and then just having a random skin unlock track/reward for the various currencies would go really, really far to be honest.

    As it stands the problem with WvW isn't the rewards themselves insofar as the high upkeep cost to play that can only be provided from doing and spending money on PvE.
    It's also that PvE rewards have been crept pretty hard, and the login rewards permanent gold boosters are starting to really add up these days, causing people to get WAY more raw cash than intended, inflating prices.

    Foods and other bonuses like Karka potions etc. are so significant that it creates a bigger disparity than a good chunk of armors, and most adults just don't have the time to sink tons of time into PvE in order to play the PvP content they want when PvP-centric games already exist.

    You know that won't happen, ascended food is going to remain part of WvW. If it was meant to be PvE only there would not have been Wxp bonuses.

    Adding a lvl 70 heal utility to the provisioner that functions similar to bountiful maintenance oil would go a long way. Adding the ascended food seeds to the synthesizers would go a long way as well.

    I'm not sure why karka potions are still in WVW. They should have been gone long ago.

  • Veprovina.4876Veprovina.4876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2021

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

    Things arent that simple.
    It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.
    Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.
    I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

    Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.
    And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

    But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.
    Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

    That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

    Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

    As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

    None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Veprovina.4876 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    The answer is obvious isn't it? There are a lot more of PvE only player than there are WvW-player that would complain loudly, if something they don't like would have a better reward structure than something they play, especially as PvE-player seem to be much more reward oriented than WvW-player.

    No one is asking for better rewards, just roughly the same level of rewards as PvE plus more fair access to WvW currency which doesn't affect PvE at all...

    Things arent that simple.
    It is no secret that GW2 is heavily pve oriented. Wvw is neglected. In multiple ways. Rewards are -scratch that- SHOULD be lowish in anet's priorities. Wvw is in dire need of population balance, class balance, the meta is so stale people quit. And every so often, a low rank player comes on forums, complains about rewards (cause apparently legendary armor has to be grinded for) / is late to the wvw party with many others having already made leggy armor and asks for better rewards.
    Dont get me wrong, here. I would like better rewards myself, too. Anet cater to the pve mentality (sublime chest req went from 2k rank to... 500, because apparently enough people complained). That hurts the mode more. New players will always choose the path of least resistance, in the way of outnumbered maps, semi afking (hell, veterans do it, too, sometimes), you name it. And by dumbing down a half-dead mode more, long-time players will have less incentive to play cause new players NEED their rewards and to hell with learning how to not die faster than an ambient creature.
    I almost forgot. You are branded as toxic nowadays if you point out flaws in peoples' builds and mentality, cause they apparently "play how they want and kitten yourself toxic comm". Cheers.

    Well to me the problem seems to lie in how the reward structure is laid out - it encourages afking.
    And i agree, it will be hard to balance.

    But honestly, the current system does nothing to discourage such behaviour or encourage learning the mode. For instance, the current system for skirmish tickets (example because those are required for legendaries), first gives you a small amount and gradually increases. Why? There's no real reason for that, no one will learn WvW because you can literally get diamond each week if you grind hard enough and flip 2 camps and their sentries over and over again. Now granted, most people won't do that, but some will hardcore afk for their prize. Others will just afk periodically then, creating the same problem. No one is learning anything by artificially limiting skirmish tickets in lower tier chests. Why not flatten them across all rewards like OP said? If nothing else, all the PvE people will get their rewards sooner and will get out of WvW for the rest of the people who actually enjoy it.
    Furthermore, there's no system that would reward you for learning the mode properly. What do you currently get for being good at WvW? Nothing. (EDIT: Before someone calls me out on this - i'm talking about skirmish tickets which are hard capped per week for everyone no matter how good or bad you are, just how much time you spent in WvW afk or not.)

    That's why i like Lan Deathrider's suggestion to introduce a use for Emblems and GoB besides a one time legendary craft material (Conflux) and PvE whine machine that GoB has become. Legendary spikes should probably recieve the same treatment. Emblems of Conquerer and Avenger should be possible to convert to skirmish tickets (and Lan's suggestion for 50 seems about right). Support roles would need to be given some tagging options though otherwise everyone would just play AOEDPS spamming classes. That way, there's incentive for more people who wish to craft legendaries to learn the mode and get them quicker. Would also balance the frankly embarrassing disparity between Raid armor acquisition time and WvW one. Raid armor requires collection, WvW would then require a lot of fighting players and capping things. Each mode with it's own mode-specific unique method of acquisition. PvE has collections, WvW shoud have fights.

    Honestly, that would solve pretty much everything you are talking about. By collecting emblems, people would actually need to WvW and not just AFK at spawn while occasionally flipping camps. And i do agree with you, whatever rewards system changes that happen shouldn't negatively impact an already shaky mode.

    As it is, there's no incentive for people who just want the armor to do anything WvW related. Even with the slow ticket gain at the lower tier chests. At least with Lan's suggestion, they'd be useful to the rest of the players while they grind their currency. And when they spend so much time in a mode, they will either like it and continue (which will address the population issues), or never come back (which will again free up slots). And while the PvErs are collecting their emblems, since the best way to collect them would be actively participating in fights, there would be more fights going around! Win win in my opinion.

    None of this will likely personally affect me as i'm almost done with my armor, just need 2 more pieces, and when i'm done with it i'll still play WvW almost daily lol so whatever. But in general, i think Lan's idea would be good for the mode.

    50 (!) Tickets per emblem is ridiculous. Personally, i am sitting on 600 emblems of the avenger, many hav much more than that. Imagine that, with 50 skirmish tickets each... That is absurd.
    Emblems should get a merch price, thats it. Same as legendary spikes have. Skirmish tickets are timegated and limited per week, and thats ok.
    Anet made the structure of the pace of getting tickets like this because they wanted to honor veterans, they wanted to make people who spent countless hours playing this mode feel they deserve SOME kind of rewards.
    Btw, Ian's suggestion seems great for pvers only. In my opinion, it is bad.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Anet gives WvW the best rewards structure
    PVE players start playing WvW
    "REAL" WvW players complain they can't get in their servers because of 'loot camping' PVE players

    Be careful what you wish for. How soon people forget how WvW was overrun when Warclaw came out.

    And that is precisely the point. Well said.

    That week got over 15k kills. Bring more of that please.