Is elementalist under-performing in raids too? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is elementalist under-performing in raids too?

Elementalist is nothing more of a joke in WvW and sPvP and I've been told it's pretty bad in PvE also. Is this true?

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Comments

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Considering the Meteor shower nerf was done because of Raid bosses...... you could extrapolate something from that.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The lack of pvp and pve split realty messing up ele balancing and we cant talk about it any where but the ele forms for the most part it seems. So do not be shocked if this was moved and ele forms are a waist land of idea and feed back.

    Ele been in a bad places from the very start of gw2 its a gen. class in a game of gen. balance (every one can do every thing so the class made to do every thing gets super bland out.) As well as doing high dmg very fast to non moving targets (npc) there always going to be nerfs on there way that sadly effect other points of the game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    Pve as in fractals and raids or pve as in open world? The later is mostly just follow zerg and hit as many things as possible. As for the former, most ppl there care about this: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/
    Ele is middle af the bunch in mid/small hotbox, and one of the stronger classes on large hitboxes.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Poelala.2830Poelala.2830 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sephylon.4938 said:
    Pve as in fractals and raids or pve as in open world? The later is mostly just follow zerg and hit as many things as possible. As for the former, most ppl there care about this: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/
    Ele is middle af the bunch in mid/small hotbox, and one of the stronger classes on large hitboxes.

    Check the title.

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's like I'm not even awake today😴. Anywho I put the answer to that on my 1st post too.

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • nekretaal.6485nekretaal.6485 Member ✭✭✭

    Elementalist is still on top

  • Kalendraf.9521Kalendraf.9521 Member ✭✭✭

    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Proud to be a member of the Charter Vanguard [CV] on the Henge of Denravi

  • Yesterday a guild told me they would rather take a deadeye or any other DPS to a raid than an Ele. Ele rotations are harder and don’t offer any more damage so your likely to screw them up and do worse. Ele also doesn’t bring any booms or utility that another class doesn’t do better. Ele isn’t really wanted in PvE Raids. I might add Ele isn’t wanted in WVW Raids either. Ele is in a bad place right now.

  • Is Ele worst than Necro?

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:
    Yesterday a guild told me they would rather take a deadeye or any other DPS to a raid than an Ele. Ele rotations are harder and don’t offer any more damage so your likely to screw them up and do worse. Ele also doesn’t bring any booms or utility that another class doesn’t do better. Ele isn’t really wanted in PvE Raids. I might add Ele isn’t wanted in WVW Raids either. Ele is in a bad place right now.

    If this is true, then welcome to the Engie HABITUAL spot. But I seriously doubt it is true. Ele seems as strong as ever, except a few things now behaving normal instead of OP.

  • You could get a raid spot easier as holosmith for DPS and in WvW mediscrapper is a great secondary healer. Engi is doing better. Scourges are wanted everywhere but PvE. Ele is wanted no where.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It was definitely too much for the class as a whole. Kind of reminds me of Blizzard's balancing, where any nuance is lost and the change was just jackhammered in for whatever reason. One of the few things I don't quite understand in terms of why the change was made

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well I haven't seen a single Weaver outdps'ing a Holosmith or a Deadeye after the patch. I ask dps players to swap to something else than ele if the encounter doesnt require range.

  • A good weaver is far from a joke in WVW. The good weavers in the squads I run with in WVW are always top of the DPS meter, always.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭

    Weaver got nerfed. The reason weaver is not used, not because the dps nerf but because, why would you if its considered one of the hardest rotation to get ok numbers? I mean you can bring them in KC for cleave, but that is about it, at the moment. It is like how condi engi was before last balance patch. Condi engi before last patch wasn't doing well. But it wasnt like you (could'nt) bring him into raids During that time. It is just why would you? Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it.

    However Arenanet gives out balance patches, so lets see what happens in the next. Class benchmarks never stay the same so lets see.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nekretaal.6485 said:
    Elementalist is still on top

    Are you playing some other game?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:
    Yesterday a guild told me they would rather take a deadeye or any other DPS to a raid than an Ele. Ele rotations are harder and don’t offer any more damage so your likely to screw them up and do worse. Ele also doesn’t bring any booms or utility that another class doesn’t do better. Ele isn’t really wanted in PvE Raids. I might add Ele isn’t wanted in WVW Raids either. Ele is in a bad place right now.

    If this is true, then welcome to the Engie HABITUAL spot. But I seriously doubt it is true. Ele seems as strong as ever, except a few things now behaving normal instead of OP.

    Very skilled eles are "strong as ever". Those of lower skill are frankly laughable. I often see eles do less damage than the banner warrior. Which isn't strong. It isn't even adequate. It's flat out bad.

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2018

    Necro are calling, they want their whine back.
    Roll with the nerfs like Necros, Mesmers, and Engineers had to endure.
    Ele has been on top for far too long, a real shake up has been needed for ages.

    Better get a wriggle on.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    It's about time ele stepped off the top-spot pedestal (most damage, best healer etc) to give other classes a chance to shine before they also get nerfed...

  • @blambidy.3216 said:
    But it wasnt like you (could'nt) bring him into raids During that time. It is just why would you? Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it.

    That’s what I’m not understanding. Shouldn’t balance also me that the higher the skill needed to pe from would equal a greater reward? If you need a higher APM doing a tricky rotation it’s only logical you should be rewarded more than a someone who auto attacks then hits 5 once in a while.

  • Nah they are fine. If you suck and die alot, that is what i consider underperforming. And if your waiting 15 min for a so called exp meta group and still fail multiple times, i would consider that as underperforming as well.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ele is exactly where it needs to be for roughly 2 years.

    Once that karma subsides they can give scepter a 2% buff to earth auto attack for the memes. Ironically it will still do more damage than the +10% damage to necro's axe.

  • blambidy.3216blambidy.3216 Member ✭✭✭

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    But it wasnt like you (could'nt) bring him into raids During that time. It is just why would you? Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it.

    That’s what I’m not understanding. Shouldn’t balance also me that the higher the skill needed to pe from would equal a greater reward? If you need a higher APM doing a tricky rotation it’s only logical you should be rewarded more than a someone who auto attacks then hits 5 once in a while.

    What you mean? No matter which rotation is harder, everyone who finished the raid, fractal, dungeon has an equal chance of getting a good drop. Having a harder class shouldn't mean you get better loot. However I do not know why arenanet did nerf ele. I guess to change things up in the game? who knows.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    Weaver got nerfed. The reason weaver is not used, not because the dps nerf but because, why would you if its considered one of the hardest rotation to get ok numbers? I mean you can bring them in KC for cleave, but that is about it, at the moment. It is like how condi engi was before last balance patch. Condi engi before last patch wasn't doing well. But it wasnt like you (could'nt) bring him into raids During that time. It is just why would you? Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it.

    However Arenanet gives out balance patches, so lets see what happens in the next. Class benchmarks never stay the same so lets see.

    Core ele got nerfed weaver just happens to be an ele and got hit but it too. The crit dmg nerf was not that big of a deal just odd chose.

    That what keeps happening core ele is getting destroyed every balanced patch and its the elite spec of ele that are getting any type of real buffs.

    Ele is bad weaver is passable.

    Also this necro thing being worst dose not invalidate the problems with ele both can be valid problems.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:
    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

    But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.
    I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You simply should be able to do raids are core classes only there just too much on the elite spec when they where not aimed to be end all be all effects in the game. Its was a chose to make of different effects but they have become an level up past 80 in there own right.

    Core necro has it bad reaper and scorge not so much core ele has it bad weaver not so much (tempest has abandoned all hope.) You can say this for every class in this game and it dose not make the argument any weaker in a lot of ways it only makes it stronger that there is a real balancing problem at all points of this game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @blambidy.3216 said:

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:

    @blambidy.3216 said:
    But it wasnt like you (could'nt) bring him into raids During that time. It is just why would you? Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it.

    That’s what I’m not understanding. Shouldn’t balance also me that the higher the skill needed to pe from would equal a greater reward? If you need a higher APM doing a tricky rotation it’s only logical you should be rewarded more than a someone who auto attacks then hits 5 once in a while.

    What you mean? No matter which rotation is harder, everyone who finished the raid, fractal, dungeon has an equal chance of getting a good drop. Having a harder class shouldn't mean you get better loot. However I do not know why arenanet did nerf ele. I guess to change things up in the game? who knows.

    I didnt say anything about loot. I said you should be rewarded for working harder. That is to say that if you have to do some crazy rotation you should be doing damage well above the base line of someone who presses on button and autoattacks. Just like you were saying "Why would you stress yourself more then people doing deadeye when deadeye is 3 buttons vs, weaver 10 skills trying to hit within just 10 secs? More work for dps that isn't worth it." They need to make it worth it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Poelala.2830 said:
    Elementalist is nothing more of a joke in WvW and sPvP and I've been told it's pretty bad in PvE also. Is this true?

    Elementalist is a joke in PVE story missions too. It's probably the worst profession to do any of the newer story instances and the recent damage nerfs made it even worse. While other professions can follow the full DPS potential when soloing in story instances, Elementalists have to adapt and use different tactics which makes their hits tickle. Also, in story instances most bosses are rather mobile too which makes the Elementalist even worse.

    In general, if you like Elementalist you can follow big blobs in open world PVE and pretend you are doing better than others (you are not btw) or play the damage bot on large hitbox Raid bosses while your pet healers are keeping you alive. For anything else, play literally any other profession, it does a far better job than Elementalist.

    And since all the balance in the game happens by how much damage someone deals on stationary golems, you can expect this to get even worse until you will no longer be able to even finish story instances on Elementalist.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:
    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

    But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.
    I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

    Check Raidar. Ele's damage is unimpressive and its popularity is dwindling as a result. DE has 67% higher representation and Holosmith has 17% higher. Holosmith stats outline the issue perfectly - while its 99th percentile is only 8% higher than Weaver's, its 50th percentile is over 30% higher. Both are far more reliable, and, as a result, more popular. The usual mantra of "cleave" doesn't apply either - Holosmith's cleave is only marginally worse (10.8k added damage vs 12.1k on Weaver, both at 50th percentile) with higher boss dps.

    Hmm, okay
    I stopped tracing exact numbers a while back because Arc kept crashing the game.
    Most of the time i still run a burnzerker since it cam swap on the fly between DPS and banner support

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @MaxwellM.2075 said:
    Yesterday a guild told me they would rather take a deadeye or any other DPS to a raid than an Ele. Ele rotations are harder and don’t offer any more damage so your likely to screw them up and do worse. Ele also doesn’t bring any booms or utility that another class doesn’t do better. Ele isn’t really wanted in PvE Raids. I might add Ele isn’t wanted in WVW Raids either. Ele is in a bad place right now.

    ever heard of aoe? eles has the highest aoe damage as power. You need 2-3 of 'em in some bosses like xera,kc,sloth, gorse.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    elementalists well needed to be bought in line, remained outliers for far too long.

  • Kalendraf.9521Kalendraf.9521 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:
    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

    But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.
    I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

    Check Raidar. Ele's damage is unimpressive and its popularity is dwindling as a result. DE has 67% higher representation and Holosmith has 17% higher. Holosmith stats outline the issue perfectly - while its 99th percentile is only 8% higher than Weaver's, its 50th percentile is over 30% higher. Both are far more reliable, and, as a result, more popular. The usual mantra of "cleave" doesn't apply either - Holosmith's cleave is only marginally worse (10.8k added damage vs 12.1k on Weaver, both at 50th percentile) with higher boss dps.

    Based on the values on that site, it appears that Weaver is currently near the middle of the pack. (Power - 4 classes with higher DPS, Condi - 6 classes with higher DPS) Ideally, the stronger classes will get rebalanced downward, and those at the bottom should need help to get rebalanced upward. Meanwhile, the DPS on Weaver looks really good compared to the necro options (comparison of their 50th percent numbers):
    Power - Weaver: 13358
    Power - Reaper: 10954
    Weaver is 22% higher DPS

    Condi - Weaver: 14404
    Condi - Scourge: 12551
    Weaver is 15% higher DPS

    Based on that site, every class has higher DPS Condi options than Necro. Every class except warrior has stronger DPS Power options than Necro, but Warriors have various group buffs so even there they're still a better option. Also, the snowcrows benchmarks (https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/) show necro is in even worse shape trailing every single class in both power and condi options. Necro needs a lot of help just to get it up to the middle of the pack. By comparison, ele seems to be in a pretty good spot.

    Proud to be a member of the Charter Vanguard [CV] on the Henge of Denravi

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:
    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

    But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.
    I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

    Check Raidar. Ele's damage is unimpressive and its popularity is dwindling as a result. DE has 67% higher representation and Holosmith has 17% higher. Holosmith stats outline the issue perfectly - while its 99th percentile is only 8% higher than Weaver's, its 50th percentile is over 30% higher. Both are far more reliable, and, as a result, more popular. The usual mantra of "cleave" doesn't apply either - Holosmith's cleave is only marginally worse (10.8k added damage vs 12.1k on Weaver, both at 50th percentile) with higher boss dps.

    Based on the values on that site, it appears that Weaver is currently near the middle of the pack. (Power - 4 classes with higher DPS, Condi - 6 classes with higher DPS) Ideally, the stronger classes will get rebalanced downward, and those at the bottom should need help to get rebalanced upward. Meanwhile, the DPS on Weaver looks really good compared to the necro options (comparison of their 50th percent numbers):
    Power - Weaver: 13358
    Power - Reaper: 10954
    Weaver is 22% higher DPS

    Condi - Weaver: 14404
    Condi - Scourge: 12551
    Weaver is 15% higher DPS

    Based on that site, every class has higher DPS Condi options than Necro. Every class except warrior has stronger DPS Power options than Necro, but Warriors have various group buffs so even there they're still a better option. Also, the snowcrows benchmarks (https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/) show necro is in even worse shape trailing every single class in both power and condi options. Necro needs a lot of help just to get it up to the middle of the pack. By comparison, ele seems to be in a pretty good spot.

    At the same time Scourge is meta in PVP, meta in WVW, you can defeat the hardest PVE boss while in downed state, finish any story instances without making a single change to your "snowcrows" meta build. All while Elementalists need to change items, traits and/or skills just to survive and at the same time tank their DPS way below Necro levels. Also at the same time they are trash in PVP and trash in WVW, outside of Meteor Staff spammers to clear some siege I guess.

    Necro is better than Elementalist in the vast majority of the game's content, and the difference is so huge it's similar to pre-nerf Staff Weaver vs after-nerf Scourge on a huge target.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @Kalendraf.9521 said:
    Ele's are doing fine. Necros are the ones with a bone to pick.

    Eeeeeeeeeyyyyy

    But in all seriousness, ele’s seem fine.
    I still see them pop in raids in big numbers

    Check Raidar. Ele's damage is unimpressive and its popularity is dwindling as a result. DE has 67% higher representation and Holosmith has 17% higher. Holosmith stats outline the issue perfectly - while its 99th percentile is only 8% higher than Weaver's, its 50th percentile is over 30% higher. Both are far more reliable, and, as a result, more popular. The usual mantra of "cleave" doesn't apply either - Holosmith's cleave is only marginally worse (10.8k added damage vs 12.1k on Weaver, both at 50th percentile) with higher boss dps.

    Based on the values on that site, it appears that Weaver is currently near the middle of the pack. (Power - 4 classes with higher DPS, Condi - 6 classes with higher DPS) Ideally, the stronger classes will get rebalanced downward, and those at the bottom should need help to get rebalanced upward. Meanwhile, the DPS on Weaver looks really good compared to the necro options (comparison of their 50th percent numbers):
    Power - Weaver: 13358
    Power - Reaper: 10954
    Weaver is 22% higher DPS

    Condi - Weaver: 14404
    Condi - Scourge: 12551
    Weaver is 15% higher DPS

    Based on that site, every class has higher DPS Condi options than Necro. Every class except warrior has stronger DPS Power options than Necro, but Warriors have various group buffs so even there they're still a better option. Also, the snowcrows benchmarks (https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/) show necro is in even worse shape trailing every single class in both power and condi options. Necro needs a lot of help just to get it up to the middle of the pack. By comparison, ele seems to be in a pretty good spot.

    Necromancer is another topic entirely. However, weaver is MUCH harder to play - in any game mode - so there has to be an advantage in damage output in any case.

  • Yeah,right now,ele is in a need for buffs.Maybe they will buff ele in the next balance patch,who knows

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MightyOne.1742 said:
    Yeah,right now,ele is in a need for buffs.Maybe they will buff ele in the next balance patch,who knows

    Saddly no, all ele gets are damage nerfs and then buffs to skills nobody uses...

    Anet really needs to decide what they want ele to be, because right now it is: a no DPS, no survive-ability(especially in group content) class that takes way to much effort to pull of the minimal amount of damage it does now

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @MightyOne.1742 said:
    Yeah,right now,ele is in a need for buffs.Maybe they will buff ele in the next balance patch,who knows

    Saddly no, all ele gets are damage nerfs and then buffs to skills nobody uses...

    Anet really needs to decide what they want ele to be, because right now it is: a no DPS, no survive-ability(especially in group content) class that takes way to much effort to pull of the minimal amount of damage it does now

    Well,they might as well rework some of the skills,or as you said,buff some of the damage to the weapons/skills that ele can use

  • Imperadordf.2687Imperadordf.2687 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Incoming %666 Shatterstone damage buff

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should finally make auras scale with boon duration and it might make support tempest great again. As for the rest, maybe they should just decide what they want eles identity to be. Staff Ele is one of the most iconic things, yet it is showing its old age everywhere. Long cast times and now that the main damages were nerfed it simply cannot hold up where it used to be strong before. Make it a faster spec, speed up cast times and animations across the board and slightly adjust damages . What about a meteor shower that didn't take 3 seconds to cast for full damage and didn't have such a long cooldown, but instead was a bit faster and dealt a little less on a slightly lower cd?

    Something like that is what the class needs. Feel a bit more dynamic instead of the static and slow playstyle. Weaver Sword is pretty good at this already

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Its simple.

    The way attunements and traits work on the ele makes it a class a class that can specialize to the extreme.
    Weaver reduces the delay it takes to go from one attunement to the other, while giving it some new skills in the transition (dual skils).
    So an ele can specialize in dps more than any other class, by having no defense or utility.

    This makes the dps ele very dependent on his teamates for heals and support but gives the ele amazing dps.

    So they nerfed it.

    Now, the ele can do really good dps if it has great support and heals.

    In fractals (cms/t4s) for example,
    With a good group (druid/chrono/guard/warrior) the ele can push over 20-24k dps on most fights. If the chrono fails to give buffs (or if he doesnt pre-buff) or the druid fails to keep the ele healed, this can fall easily to 10k or below. And in that scenario is when all other dpsers will be doing better.

    A lot of pugs use ARC and only look at the dps bar. I get blamed to be bad dps in quite a few, and they fail to realize that support is lacking. Quickness uptime, boom cover, heals it all effects the ele way more than other dps builds/classes.

    So (TL/DR) a good dps Ele is only underperforming if the groups support is underperforming.

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