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Concerns about Elementalist

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  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    Other Classes: 1 Healing skill, incredible healing/life steal traitline.
    Elementalist: A lot of horrible healing skills, horrible healing traitline.
    Note: To do a decent healing, smash your keyboard with healing skills and better you use the combo fields.
    As I said, a lot of skills and using combo field. Thanks to prove what I said.
    Revenant can do that with 1 or 2 skills, Daredevil same, Guardian same, Engineer same.
    And yes, I can. It's right on the Q key.

    While there are some truth in your statments, you are clearly over exagerating !
    What are these "incredible" healing skills other classes seem to have ? Granted a few have very powerful one but not all professions and/or specializations.

    Our glyph is more than decent and comparable to most other profession healing skills. Our signet can be good too with some builds. Even the cantrip heal has some use in PVE, when fighting some champions that put out 25 stacks of poison, its exceptional condi clear and very low CD can serve at times.

    Talking about traits, elementalist has water which provides good party healing, and it can be very strong if you add some healing power. But even without healing power, water is still decent and definitly helps when more healing is needed.
    You can't be serious by saying other professions has incredible healing/life steal traitline...

    You even dare to say than Engineer can the same with 1 our 2 skills, that profession that need to combo as much as we do, and in some ways, sharing the same issues.
    @AliamRationem.5172 showed you a way to fully heal within 2 seconds using several skills and combos. Not easy to do at first, but you can become confortable with training. What profession can do the same? I play all of them, and for example, my warrior can't do that, he regenerates over time, but not fully in a few seconds. Same for most of my characters in fact.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2020

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    Other Classes: 1 Healing skill, incredible healing/life steal traitline.
    Elementalist: A lot of horrible healing skills, horrible healing traitline.
    Note: To do a decent healing, smash your keyboard with healing skills and better you use the combo fields.
    As I said, a lot of skills and using combo field. Thanks to prove what I said.
    Revenant can do that with 1 or 2 skills, Daredevil same, Guardian same, Engineer same.
    And yes, I can. It's right on the Q key.

    While there are some truth in your statments, you are clearly over exagerating !
    What are these "incredible" healing skills other classes seem to have ? Granted a few have very powerful one but not all professions and/or specializations.

    Our glyph is more than decent and comparable to most other profession healing skills. Our signet can be good too with some builds. Even the cantrip heal has some use in PVE, when fighting some champions that put out 25 stacks of poison, its exceptional condi clear and very low CD can serve at times.

    Talking about traits, elementalist has water which provides good party healing, and it can be very strong if you add some healing power. But even without healing power, water is still decent and definitly helps when more healing is needed.
    You can't be serious by saying other professions has incredible healing/life steal traitline...

    You even dare to say than Engineer can the same with 1 our 2 skills, that profession that need to combo as much as we do, and in some ways, sharing the same issues.
    @AliamRationem.5172 showed you a way to fully heal within 2 seconds using several skills and combos. Not easy to do at first, but you can become confortable with training. What profession can do the same? I play all of them, and for example, my warrior can't do that, he regenerates over time, but not fully in a few seconds. Same for most of my characters in fact.

    I strongly doubt you play all of them http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKAMWgdBOWTpA-e given the right set up ( which I have) you can heal to full using those trait lines on warrior...can do the same on a druid and guardian...so..you're wrong?...and yeah it takes like 1/10 of the effort on these other classes

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2020

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I strongly doubt you play all of them http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKAMWgdBOWTpA-e given the right set up ( which I have) you can heal to full using those trait lines on warrior...can do the same on a druid and guardian...so..you're wrong?...and yeah it takes like 1/10 of the effort on these other classes

    Ok, first you picked a support traitline and a healing grandmaster trait. Second, your full heal only work with allies around you. You will not fully heal if you are alone, far from it: 9230 + 1156 + 1156 + 136 * 6 = 12358 over 18k health
    Aliam gave us a showcase of a full heal without water traitline.

    With water: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGAEmAYqHA-e
    6494+1300+1302+1600 (soothing mist over 10s) = 10 696 over 12k health and with 2 buttons pressed, like warrior.
    A little less that warrior, but you have to factor recharge: glyph is 20s, shout is 30s. You can get 1302 every 10 seconds (8 if you took arcane) and soothing mist is more likely permanent. Warrior is largely behind if solo. In a group, warrior will be better.
    Now, how many warriors run tactics ? Exactly like how many ele run water : very few.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I strongly doubt you play all of them http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKAMWgdBOWTpA-e given the right set up ( which I have) you can heal to full using those trait lines on warrior...can do the same on a druid and guardian...so..you're wrong?...and yeah it takes like 1/10 of the effort on these other classes

    Ok, first you picked a support traitline and a healing grandmaster trait. Second, your full heal only work with allies around you. You will not fully heal if you are alone, far from it: 9230 + 1156 + 1156 + 136 * 6 = 12358 over 18k health
    Aliam gave us a showcase of a full heal without water traitline.

    With water: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGAEmAYqHA-e
    6494+1300+1302+1600 (soothing mist over 10s) = 10 696 over 12k health and with 2 buttons pressed, like warrior.
    A little less that warrior, but you have to factor recharge: glyph is 20s, shout is 30s. You can get 1302 every 10 seconds (8 if you took arcane) and soothing mist is more likely permanent. Warrior is largely behind if solo. In a group, warrior will be better.
    Now, how many warriors run tactics ? Exactly like how many ele run water : very few.

    Full heal?

    -He starts at 8k
    -He has barrier GM
    -He has arcana water dodge trait
    -He uses 2 blast finishers
    -He press several button for real overall 10k heal

    The warrior build would heal for more by pressing 3 buttons at most

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I strongly doubt you play all of them http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKAMWgdBOWTpA-e given the right set up ( which I have) you can heal to full using those trait lines on warrior...can do the same on a druid and guardian...so..you're wrong?...and yeah it takes like 1/10 of the effort on these other classes

    Ok, first you picked a support traitline and a healing grandmaster trait. Second, your full heal only work with allies around you. You will not fully heal if you are alone, far from it: 9230 + 1156 + 1156 + 136 * 6 = 12358 over 18k health
    Aliam gave us a showcase of a full heal without water traitline.

    With water: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGAEmAYqHA-e
    6494+1300+1302+1600 (soothing mist over 10s) = 10 696 over 12k health and with 2 buttons pressed, like warrior.
    A little less that warrior, but you have to factor recharge: glyph is 20s, shout is 30s. You can get 1302 every 10 seconds (8 if you took arcane) and soothing mist is more likely permanent. Warrior is largely behind if solo. In a group, warrior will be better.
    Now, how many warriors run tactics ? Exactly like how many ele run water : very few.

    Full heal?

    -He starts at 8k
    -He has barrier GM
    -He has arcana water dodge trait
    -He uses 2 blast finishers
    -He press several button for real overall 10k heal

    The warrior build would heal for more by pressing 3 buttons at most

    How exactly warrior would heal for more in a solo situation?
    Unless he is building very defensively with might makes right, adrenaline health and tactics, warrior has basically one heal skill and no way to create water field like ele do.
    So it sticks to simple healing skills where warrior is not better than ele. How can you miss this? It's basic number comparaison...

  • supreme.3602supreme.3602 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pocky.3159 said:
    So new player here; just gonna say its so disappointing to have to learn solo Condi Weaver, only for its whole rhythm to get thrown off for a nerf to 1% of players in the raid community thinking its burning is too strong.

    I was actually hoping that balance changes might've meant that some other forms of the Elementalist kit were being made more viable (power/etc.), but from reading this, and seeing other players experiences with the game so far I can see the nerf hammer and patches are what we're supposed to get used to. lol

    Think I'm gonna take a break from the game, which is a shame, since I just got back in.

    Sorry, friend.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect - Condi Ele Pioneer

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pocky.3159 said:
    So new player here; just gonna say its so disappointing to have to learn solo Condi Weaver, only for its whole rhythm to get thrown off for a nerf to 1% of players in the raid community thinking its burning is too strong.

    I was actually hoping that balance changes might've meant that some other forms of the Elementalist kit were being made more viable (power/etc.), but from reading this, and seeing other players experiences with the game so far I can see the nerf hammer and patches are what we're supposed to get used to. lol

    Think I'm gonna take a break from the game, which is a shame, since I just got back in.

    Solo condi weaver? Like open world? Look I am not defending this patch, but you're going to be fine. Condi weaver is a very strong build for solo play and tweaking a couple of traits is unlikely to change that. I could take no grandmaster trait at all and still light open world on fire with condi weaver! However, that doesn't mean I want the grandmaster traits in fire to feel like they do nothing for my build in solo play.

    So, I feel you. It's disappointing. Just don't think this is going to kill condi weaver. Focusing on raids like they're the thing that matters is something the devs seem to buy into. But you don't have to!

  • Pocky.3159Pocky.3159 Member ✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    So, I feel you. It's disappointing. Just don't think this is going to kill condi weaver. Focusing on raids like they're the thing that matters is something the devs seem to buy into. But you don't have to!

    Since I'm new, I've only done Open World and solo play; which is where my gripes of the DPS loss are coming from. I may be entirely off with this; as I've been trying to learn from others and resources on how to play Weaver; but I've mostly being seeing a lot of people say conflicting stuff. So forgive me for my ignorance on this.

    My biggest concern is if this burst is actually gonna be worth spending so much time in fire; building stacks and applying burns (which also do less damage now), only to lose all of them for allies (which is even funnier if you're running solo). If the explosion is intended to make our DPS more burst, then is that explosion gonna be strong enough to compensate for the loss in might for our other stances or burn damage? If not, its just gonna feel really lame to stay in fire only to just do one thing and go back and forth.

    Someone on youtube did suggest trying to replace my fire/arcane with water/arcane for its damage boost to vulnerable stacked enemies; but I'm not too sure about that. I'd taken advice to basically go from earth/arcane to fire/arcane when I felt more comfortable and didn't need the extra defenses. And that worked out really well; though obviously somethings gonna change soon! I'd ask for advice as to how to prepare, but I think I'll wait and see what the other Weaver players think will work most comfortably after the nerfs.

    But you all have been here longer than I have; and have seen the this kitten before. If you think Condi weaver will be ok I'll take your word for it. The real annoying this is whether or not I'll need to get some new gear lol

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pocky.3159 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    So, I feel you. It's disappointing. Just don't think this is going to kill condi weaver. Focusing on raids like they're the thing that matters is something the devs seem to buy into. But you don't have to!

    Since I'm new, I've only done Open World and solo play; which is where my gripes of the DPS loss are coming from. I may be entirely off with this; as I've been trying to learn from others and resources on how to play Weaver; but I've mostly being seeing a lot of people say conflicting stuff. So forgive me for my ignorance on this.

    My biggest concern is if this burst is actually gonna be worth spending so much time in fire; building stacks and applying burns (which also do less damage now), only to lose all of them for allies (which is even funnier if you're running solo). If the explosion is intended to make our DPS more burst, then is that explosion gonna be strong enough to compensate for the loss in might for our other stances or burn damage? If not, its just gonna feel really lame to stay in fire only to just do one thing and go back and forth.

    Someone on youtube did suggest trying to replace my fire/arcane with water/arcane for its damage boost to vulnerable stacked enemies; but I'm not too sure about that. I'd taken advice to basically go from earth/arcane to fire/arcane when I felt more comfortable and didn't need the extra defenses. And that worked out really well; though obviously somethings gonna change soon! I'd ask for advice as to how to prepare, but I think I'll wait and see what the other Weaver players think will work most comfortably after the nerfs.

    But you all have been here longer than I have; and have seen the this kitten before. If you think Condi weaver will be ok I'll take your word for it. The real annoying this is whether or not I'll need to get some new gear lol

    I'll be sure to share some video post-patch to show how fire/arcane condi weaver fares in open world, but I can already tell you it's not going to be a big change. My disappointment is more with a design that appears to be a slap in the face to condi and solo play, while also not achieving anything useful for the raiders these changes are supposed to benefit. I'm hoping they failed to release the full details of these changes and that it will be different than it appears, but I guess we'll see.

  • JohnWater.5760JohnWater.5760 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020

    Other Classes: 1 Healing skill, incredible healing/life steal traitline.
    Elementalist: A lot of horrible healing skills, horrible healing traitline.
    Note: To do a decent healing, smash your keyboard with healing skills and better you use the combo fields.
    As I said, a lot of skills and using combo field. Thanks to prove what I said.
    Revenant can do that with 1 or 2 skills, Daredevil same, Guardian same, Engineer same.
    And yes, I can. It's right on the Q key.

    While there are some truth in your statments, you are clearly over exagerating !
    What are these "incredible" healing skills other classes seem to have ? Granted a few have very powerful one but not all professions and/or specializations.

    Daredevil - You hardly need to use the healing skill, the life steal trait is pretty good.
    Scrapper - The healing well is amazing, if not enough you can combo with a lot of weapon skills or use F1.
    Revenant - Low CD and good life steal, If you play Herald you have constant Regen and if you play Renegade you have a good healing skill and an awesome life steal skill.
    Warrior - Depending on your Build, the healing ability is used only when you are almost dying. You said you play with all classes, good, because I also have all classes.
    My current Warrior has 2 builds, Condi and Power. Both are amazing to me I don't see any problem with healing with any of the builds, and I play solo most of the time because I love completing maps and achievements now.
    Warrior has at least 2 skills (I only remember two) that won't let you receive damage. Has dodge, evasive skills, block and invulnerable, the healing is a thing you won't need sometimes.
    The healing skill is good for me, the rage and the signet.

    Our glyph is more than decent and comparable to most other profession healing skills. Our signet can be good too with some builds. Even the cantrip heal has some use in PVE, when fighting some champions that put out 25 stacks of poison, its exceptional condi clear and very low CD can serve at times.

    Yes, I agree that the Glyph is good, for me it's the best healing we have and I only use it.
    BUT, don't you think he has a very long CD for a class with a few defense and life?
    If you can't dodge 2 hits, your life is almost zero. Then you stop doing damage to use your healing skills. If you don't go into the water and use the combos, unfortunately you die.

    Talking about traits, elementalist has water which provides good party healing, and it can be very strong if you add some healing power. But even without healing power, water is still decent and definitly helps when more healing is needed.
    You can't be serious by saying other professions has incredible healing/life steal traitline...

    Above are examples of how it is possible.

    You even dare to say than Engineer can the same with 1 our 2 skills, that profession that need to combo as much as we do, and in some ways, sharing the same issues.

    I don't know which build you're using, but mine isn't like that. I just use Healing skill and F1, And I continue to do damage while I heal with skills. If you are using Scrapper, even better as your attacks will combo in the water fields. I use Power Scrapper and Diviner Holo.

    @AliamRationem.5172 showed you a way to fully heal within 2 seconds using several skills and combos. Not easy to do at first, but you can become confortable with training. What profession can do the same? I play all of them, and for example, my warrior can't do that, he regenerates over time, but not fully in a few seconds. Same for most of my characters in fact.

    I disagree with being comfortable with the situation. I settle for the situation, Elementalist is my favorite class (I have two) and if I don't do the healing rotation I know I won't survive. I don't do it because I like it, I do it because I need to.

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    Ok, first you picked a support traitline and a healing grandmaster trait.
    Now, how many warriors run tactics ? Exactly like how many ele run water : very few.

    I didn't understand what happened in the conversation afterwards, but here's the thing.
    You can't say that the Elementalist has a good heal when equipped with water and still does damage.
    Equipping water is the same as giving up greater damage, as all water Grand Traits are for healing.
    All classes have a Healing traitline. I don't know any class that equips a Healing traitline to play DPS. If you know any Build with high damage and using it, please share. It would be great sometimes not to depend on another player to help you heal.

    I think I didn't understand it correctly because all your nicknames start with the letter A

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    Daredevil - You hardly need to use the healing skill, the life steal trait is pretty good.
    Scrapper - The healing well is amazing, if not enough you can combo with a lot of weapon skills or use F1.
    Revenant - Low CD and good life steal, If you play Herald you have constant Regen and if you play Renegade you have a good healing skill and an awesome life steal skill.
    Warrior - Depending on your Build, the healing ability is used only when you are almost dying. You said you play with all classes, good, because I also have all classes.
    My current Warrior has 2 builds, Condi and Power. Both are amazing to me I don't see any problem with healing with any of the builds, and I play solo most of the time because I love completing maps and achievements now.
    Warrior has at least 2 skills (I only remember two) that won't let you receive damage. Has dodge, evasive skills, block and invulnerable, the healing is a thing you won't need sometimes.
    The healing skill is good for me, the rage and the signet.

    Ok, now I see your point, but it's not about healing (a point where ele is definitly strong), it's about sustaining and there I agree ele is not good if built for power dps.

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    Yes, I agree that the Glyph is good, for me it's the best healing we have and I only use it.
    BUT, don't you think he has a very long CD for a class with a few defense and life?

    I think the CD is low enough (20s), problem is elsewhere (very low HP and armor). ANet a nerf all great defenses we had (earth focus 5 for example).
    Earth traitline should be rework to provide more sustain than it currently does (look at warrior defense traitline). Even then it wouldn't probably be enough since most builds have no room for earth.

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    If you can't dodge 2 hits, your life is almost zero. Then you stop doing damage to use your healing skills. If you don't go into the water and use the combos, unfortunately you die.

    It is true, either you prevent all (or most) hits, either you die. It is something I expect when I play a powerful mage in MMOs. Problem is ANet has also nerfed our damage because it was over-performing, not taking the fact that it was already a trade for our lack of sustain. Now so our damage is on par with others, but sustain is lagging behind.

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    I don't know which build you're using, but mine isn't like that. I just use Healing skill and F1, And I continue to do damage while I heal with skills. If you are using Scrapper, even better as your attacks will combo in the water fields. I use Power Scrapper and Diviner Holo.

    If your attacks combo in water fields, it's the same thing than Aliam did in his video, certainly to do easier on Scrapper (an elite based on sustain, it does help).

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    I disagree with being comfortable with the situation. I settle for the situation, Elementalist is my favorite class (I have two) and if I don't do the healing rotation I know I won't survive. I don't do it because I like it, I do it because I need to.

    Agree for power, but for condi builds, it's fine.

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    You can't say that the Elementalist has a good heal when equipped with water and still does damage.
    Equipping water is the same as giving up greater damage, as all water Grand Traits are for healing.
    All classes have a Healing traitline. I don't know any class that equips a Healing traitline to play DPS. If you know any Build with high damage and using it, please share. It would be great sometimes not to depend on another player to help you heal.

    I never said it could do great DPS with water traitline!
    I still maintain that as a warrior, I have trouble surviving without defense when soloing champions. Health is is going down slowly but surely, all sustaining skills are just slowly down the process. I guess Adrenaline health is one of the major helper here.
    And I also struggled with revenant before Devastating rework. It is fine now, but I think Dance of Death is vastly overpowered (don't get me wrong: I love it).

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Ele was made needlessly complex in an effort to make it "unique" and create "scaling difficulty" for professions instead. "Balance" against other professions was not the main thought process behind certain designs, although the devs knew more straight forward, and simpler designs, also required skill to compete at higher levels (see below)... but they went a different route...

    "Tap: Based on the progression of the class reveals, it’s apparent the difficulty has begun to scale, with the latest classes being the most complex. Is it fair to say that some classes will be easy to master and some difficult, or is this assessment too simple? Was it always ArenaNet’s intention to have some classes seen as ‘easy’ and some ‘difficult?’

    Jon P: The average complexity for professions is going up. Elementalists, for example, are relatively easy to master – or, rather, they’re easy to learn – but there is a lot of depth to them as well. Though some of this comes down to the utility skills you are picking.

    We said the engineer is very complex because his complexity limit is very high, but you could run an engineer with simpler utility skills and fewer kits which would make it a relatively straightforward class. There would still be a lot of decision making, but it is true that some classes are intended to be a little more straightforward.
    We often get people saying “As a warrior, all I do is build up my adrenaline and hit stuff,” when there is actually a lot involved in what you’re doing. The warrior is intended to be a profession that you can look at and understand, whereas with the guardian you’re actively managing when you can be in and out of battle in a much more complex way, because you actually have to make decisions to keep yourself safe. The warrior’s decisions are more damage and control and less support, so he is making fewer survivability decisions. That’s one of the key elements to what makes a profession easy to play; how survivable it is.

    A player that doesn’t know what they are doing — who is only hitting random skills — as long as that profession can keep them alive long enough to kill the creature they are fighting, that is naturally an easier profession. For example, the thief can’t really use random skills as much as the warrior, but in some respects has more survivability than the warrior once you know what you’re doing. On the flip side, the complexity of the warrior is in a different place. Maybe not as important in PVE, but more important in PVP. To some extent it depends on what part of the game you are playing."

    "Gigashadow (GW2G): The warrior seems an easy profession to get into, with a high skill floor and a very simple profession mechanic, and this has some people concerned. Can you assuage these fears by talking about some things which make the warrior very challenging to play and give it a high skill cap?

    Jon P: The warrior’s strength is mainly focused on its melee attacks, but knowing where to be on the battlefield, at a high level, is probably the most difficult thing. To get to a very acceptable, competent level with the warrior, yes, it’s probably the easiest one to get there. But only one in a million people have reached the level of a warrior that really sets them apart. If you’ve seen any Guild Wars 1 we had The Last Pride, a Korean guild, and they had a warrior called Last of Master and there is no one I have seen who is even close to him. He takes positioning — the thing that makes a warrior — to a level no one else does."

    Long story short... "Unique" and "scaling difficulty" was more important than balance, and that's why there are major issues when it come to wvw and spvp.

    And this video sums up the Ele design, and the state of some other profession designs too...

    Part of the charm is the complexity though. Maybe its me but i enjoy the usage of elites to get dps increase and doing buffs for roation.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    I strongly doubt you play all of them http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKAMWgdBOWTpA-e given the right set up ( which I have) you can heal to full using those trait lines on warrior...can do the same on a druid and guardian...so..you're wrong?...and yeah it takes like 1/10 of the effort on these other classes

    Ok, first you picked a support traitline and a healing grandmaster trait. Second, your full heal only work with allies around you. You will not fully heal if you are alone, far from it: 9230 + 1156 + 1156 + 136 * 6 = 12358 over 18k health
    Aliam gave us a showcase of a full heal without water traitline.

    With water: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGAEmAYqHA-e
    6494+1300+1302+1600 (soothing mist over 10s) = 10 696 over 12k health and with 2 buttons pressed, like warrior.
    A little less that warrior, but you have to factor recharge: glyph is 20s, shout is 30s. You can get 1302 every 10 seconds (8 if you took arcane) and soothing mist is more likely permanent. Warrior is largely behind if solo. In a group, warrior will be better.
    Now, how many warriors run tactics ? Exactly like how many ele run water : very few.

    Full heal?

    -He starts at 8k
    -He has barrier GM
    -He has arcana water dodge trait
    -He uses 2 blast finishers
    -He press several button for real overall 10k heal

    The warrior build would heal for more by pressing 3 buttons at most

    4 blast finishers and 5 heals, actually: magnetic wave, shockwave (evasive arcana - earth), comet, earthen vortex and a fifth non-combo heal from lesser cleansing wave (evasive arcana - water).

    In addition to healing for 12k+ health (including signet passive + regen) and generating barrier, the chain also cleanses 4 conditions, applies 3s of reflect, includes about 2.5s of evasion, and applies area cripple, bleed, and interrupt. You can also pop primordial stance and glyph of elemental power to add some burn plus area bleed and chill to the mix.

    It's not exactly without payoff, even if it is complex. And though we're comparing this chain to pushing the 6 skill, it's important to note that ele can still do this. I happen to be using the signet passive heal because it's amazing with this build and I obviously don't need a second burst heal. But you can run an active heal in the 6 slot if you like.

    Also note that I am using 0 healing power on my gear and I am running fire/arcane, not water. Taking water trait line would mean I could heal for even more, although that would obviously come at a cost and, for my preference, isn't worth the tradeoff!

  • Milosz.5938Milosz.5938 Member ✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    How it feels to play elementalist :

    What elem really is :

    BRAVISSIMO :)

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zaekeon.5128 said:
    I don’t like that the new fire trait changes punish solo play.

    -Pyromancer Puissance is really good better than previous version
    -Persisting flames is...rather pve based ( only in pve enemies will ball that long in your fields) and staff weaver with lava font and pyroclastic blast

    Overall I give a 4/10 to this patch:

    -Obsidian flesh is a ridiculous change
    -Scepter ele is still dead and buried
    -Arcana GM are rather bad...you can play around them but nothing build defining, attunement CD and elemental attunements are the reason for me to go arcane
    -Staff ele ......too much after cast, gameplay requires future reading for maximum results

    The situation is not good.....and WvW with its stats customization is the only reason why I still give a kitten about this game playing elementalist

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • MarzAttakz.9608MarzAttakz.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    Overall I give a 4/10 to this patch:

    -Obsidian flesh is a ridiculous change
    -Scepter ele is still dead and buried
    -Arcana GM are rather bad...you can play around them but nothing build defining, attunement CD and elemental attunements are the reason for me to go arcane
    -Staff ele ......too much after cast, gameplay requires future reading for maximum results

    The situation is not good.....and WvW with its stats customization is the only reason why I still give a kitten about this game playing elementalist

    Totally agree, and with the Scourge over-nerf guess I have to revert to kitten Firebrand or Rev in WvW now.

    Deso since 2012. Elementalist for life.
    [EXG][TAG]

  • Mikomaru.2586Mikomaru.2586 Member ✭✭
    edited July 9, 2020

    Condition Reduction on primordial stance was so sad.
    I'd expect adding more stacks of condi to make it fair.
    In condi build, the burning damage is half from bleeding damage and I think it's weird.
    If people think the burning was too strong, maybe they need to watch cFB.

    The disable skills on obsidian flesh still weird.
    Utility ones like guardian or engi invuln disable skills is normal.
    Also mist form from util disable skills is normal.
    but invuln from weapon skills shouldn't do. Cause distortion (also invuln) from mesmer doesn't disable weapon skills.

  • Milosz.5938Milosz.5938 Member ✭✭

    2 years ago :)))))))))))))))))))))))))) ANET wrote something here do we have to wait for next anniversary ...
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, thank you.

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Milosz.5938 said:
    2 years ago :)))))))))))))))))))))))))) ANET wrote something here do we have to wait for next anniversary ...
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, thank you.

    They didn't wanted the thread in PvP section, they moved it here so it's easier to ignore.

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    Watch Anet release a new Ele spec for Cantha expansion that reduces core ele, weaver and tempest to nothing but hot flaming garbage (not that they're stellar classes as it is). Then watch Anet nerf the new spec into the same pile of steaming garbage in 2 months time. Why? Because 1 out of the top 10 spvp players uses the new Ele build (other 9 will be Revs and Holos as usual) and 1 out of the 100 twitch streamers uses the new Ele build in raids and fractals once.

  • Pocky.3159Pocky.3159 Member ✭✭
    edited July 9, 2020

    @Zeesh.7286 said:
    Watch Anet release a new Ele spec for Cantha expansion that reduces core ele, weaver and tempest to nothing but hot flaming garbage (not that they're stellar classes as it is). Then watch Anet nerf the new spec into the same pile of steaming garbage in 2 months time. Why? Because 1 out of the top 10 spvp players uses the new Ele build (other 9 will be Revs and Holos as usual) and 1 out of the 100 twitch streamers uses the new Ele build in raids and fractals once.

    I'd say make a bet, but I don't think your chances of being wrong are fair enough for those who would bet against it lol

  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 9, 2020

    @zaekeon.5128 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @zaekeon.5128 said:
    I don’t like that the new fire trait changes punish solo play.

    -Pyromancer Puissance is really good better than previous version
    -Persisting flames is...rather pve based ( only in pve enemies will ball that long in your fields) and staff weaver with lava font and pyroclastic blast

    Overall I give a 4/10 to this patch:

    -Obsidian flesh is a ridiculous change
    -Scepter ele is still dead and buried
    -Arcana GM are rather bad...you can play around them but nothing build defining, attunement CD and elemental attunements are the reason for me to go arcane
    -Staff ele ......too much after cast, gameplay requires future reading for maximum results

    The situation is not good.....and WvW with its stats customization is the only reason why I still give a kitten about this game playing elementalist

    Im saying when you play solo it’s not exactly cool that you lose 10 might when leaving fire. This is ok for groups but punishes solo players. The burst damage from the effect feels super weak.

    Seems like Anet doesn't want core ele benefiting from fire grand Masters unless you're getting blinds on burn which is defensive.

    Tempest only shines with might stacking. And weaver won't use any of them unless it's in pve/wvw.

  • Please make the Transcendent Tempest trait (Increase dmg after using overload) shares with 5/10 man depends on Tempestious Aria usage.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Being a jack of all trades master of none is Elementalist issue.
    Crank its health to 15k
    Shared cooldown on all attunements (so you can't just swap to water, use the big skills, then leave to an other element because other skills are garbage)
    Make each element a self contained effective weapon skill kit. Every element should be able to ditch damage.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being a jack of all trades master of none is Elementalist issue.
    Crank its health to 15k
    Shared cooldown on all attunements (so you can't just swap to water, use the big skills, then leave to an other element because other skills are garbage)
    Make each element a self contained effective weapon skill kit. Every element should be able to ditch damage.

    I feel that way too, each attunement should be an effective weapon skill kit. Versatility comes at the cost of efficiency here, and since we can't weapon swap to deal with range, mobility is important.
    1. aa
    2. movement skill / medium damage
    3. utility
    4. cc/utility
    5. big hit skill

    something like that for most attunements.

  • Pocky.3159Pocky.3159 Member ✭✭
    edited July 21, 2020

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Being a jack of all trades master of none is Elementalist issue.
    Crank its health to 15k
    Shared cooldown on all attunements (so you can't just swap to water, use the big skills, then leave to an other element because other skills are garbage)
    Make each element a self contained effective weapon skill kit. Every element should be able to ditch damage.

    I feel that way too, each attunement should be an effective weapon skill kit. Versatility comes at the cost of efficiency here, and since we can't weapon swap to deal with range, mobility is important.
    1. aa
    2. movement skill / medium damage
    3. utility
    4. cc/utility
    5. big hit skill

    something like that for most attunements.

    I kinda like the idea of not just switching to Water for heals or some cc, and nothing else.

    Changes to Pyromancer's Puissance definitely feel like they even encourage you to try and stay in one element longer than you normally would; just with the usual low damage and gutting of your own personal power. I mean, why else would they want us to camp Fire for boons to burn on allies?

    If they made staying in one element an option; it would definitely change things up a lot; though I do hope we don't just have a problem of homogenization. Like what utility/boons/cc you get for each element should definitely still be unique to said element. I do feel like some of the traits should allow for you to essentially fully dedicate to a single element though, at some trade-off. Like, we could make a full support healer/buffer Water, or a full tank Earth.

    While I love Weavers needing to swap elements constantly for the theming and the like; it definitely feels like the punishment for failing is so high, and the reward feels almost not as worth it for what you put in; at least in comparison to easier professions that get a hell of a lot more utility from one or two weapons. I wonder what a change like this could do for the specialization; as I already hover over mostly 2 attunements most of the time anyway lol

  • Milosz.5938Milosz.5938 Member ✭✭

    WOW people still think that someone from lovely ANET reading this forum. :))))
    Soo .... no, they don't.
    I played today my beloved ele...first time after patch..sorry balance patch. And my experience was... horrible. I had duels vs necro and mesmer - that was beautiful experience. I'm soo great-full for that pleasure - playing ele. I hope - who knows...who knows... someday meet someone from ANET team playing as elemenatlists in pvp.
    Hope they will share my joy.
    Thank you. :) sweethearts
    PS. Time to change profession for a while. CHEERS :#

    I feel like Boon Master. No! Wait! I'm elementalist...

  • I tried my first ele recently (newish player here), I only do PvE, prefer solo, but low-skill-level groups also (so far T1's, dungeons). I like ranged pet builds, and am limited to pwr (as I don't do ascended or anything grindy, griffin bordered on feeling too much like work FYI). With the new normal of shelter in place, this game as the most casual friendly mmorpg has a lot of potential to gain here in ways you didn't in the past - and I am only semi-casual). So I did staff + elementals, the thing I noticed most is elementals don't hold aggro anywhere near as well as my necro or ranger pets, even my mesmer does better there. Mounting killing the pets was also a big pain, and no pets underwater (seriously)??? I love the long-range nuking with pets tanking - my main reason for playing the class - lots of fun to be had there. I am one of your older players (meaning slower on the keys), high speed rotations with my face kissing the mob isn't really my thing, playing a warrior for long periods is simply exhausting to me, FYI.

  • So I read up on aggro, earth pets tank much better than fire pets, thank you. :-) The switch cooldown makes it painful to spam pets in earth, and spam fire for attack though.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    Hi guys is dagger warhorn in pvp viable? saw someone today pvping on twitch with dagger warhorn build. I don't remember fire shields removing condis either is that new or old change?

    The person was vallun or vallum or whatever.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    New ? 2 years I think.

    Yes, you have tempest earth/water to tank a bit and spread protection, fire/water to cleanse, or air/water to dps and spread schoking aura. Tempest is dominant over Weaver these days.
    Warhorn is good for aoe blindness, nice dps, some cc. Dagger, you don't have better choice, still you have weakness and a projectil block.

  • Vrath.1754Vrath.1754 Member ✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hi guys is dagger warhorn in pvp viable? saw someone today pvping on twitch with dagger warhorn build. I don't remember fire shields removing condis either is that new or old change?

    The person was vallun or vallum or whatever.

    I'm not sure what build he was playing there is the support Tempest build that is meta. He could've been playing some variation of that swapping focus for warhorn.

    Vallun has a YouTube channel with many different builds, probably playing one of them, he has builds for a lot of classes including a couple recent builds for tempest outside the standard metabattle builds. It's worth checking out. I really like his Rogue Sorc tempest sc/wh, from a couple months ago.

    Whether it's viable or not depends on what you consider viable to mean. It's a fun build, of course you'll likely have to out play some of your opponents playing meta builds but you can certainly do well with well played and thought out builds that might not be considered meta if you know your role and rotations.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    I don't remember fire shields removing condis either is that new or old change?

    Anet added a new trait in Fire traitline called 'Smothering Auras' Basically applying an aura removes 1 condition and transmuting the condition removes 2 from yourself and allies.

  • We just have to acknowledge that ele is a dead class and hope that in the next game(if there will even be one) they make a better version of it. Until then we can just play other classes (the 4 viable ones that is :))

    Elementalist - my one true love
    Just faffin around in OW
    ANet fix your servers plox

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2020

    @Vrath.1754 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:
    Hi guys is dagger warhorn in pvp viable? saw someone today pvping on twitch with dagger warhorn build. I don't remember fire shields removing condis either is that new or old change?

    The person was vallun or vallum or whatever.

    I'm not sure what build he was playing there is the support Tempest build that is meta. He could've been playing some variation of that swapping focus for warhorn.

    Vallun has a YouTube channel with many different builds, probably playing one of them, he has builds for a lot of classes including a couple recent builds for tempest outside the standard metabattle builds. It's worth checking out. I really like his Rogue Sorc tempest sc/wh, from a couple months ago.

    Whether it's viable or not depends on what you consider viable to mean. It's a fun build, of course you'll likely have to out play some of your opponents playing meta builds but you can certainly do well with well played and thought out builds that might not be considered meta if you know your role and rotations.

    He was a tempest with dagger warhorn using all sorts of aoes bouncing around n dpsing and getting angry at holosmith who blew him up ultra fast wow.

    might have been somewhat support actually.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭✭

    @kurth.3175 said:
    So I read up on aggro, earth pets tank much better than fire pets, thank you. :-) The switch cooldown makes it painful to spam pets in earth, and spam fire for attack though.

    Oh yea bro just use that as a staple in rpgs as a whole, usually earth provides more defenives and tanking capability, especially on pets, I remember it was the same with the magician in everquest 1 the earth pet was the tank.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Milosz.5938 said:
    WOW people still think that someone from lovely ANET reading this forum. :))))
    Soo .... no, they don't.
    I played today my beloved ele...first time after patch..sorry balance patch. And my experience was... horrible. I had duels vs necro and mesmer - that was beautiful experience. I'm soo great-full for that pleasure - playing ele. I hope - who knows...who knows... someday meet someone from ANET team playing as elemenatlists in pvp.
    Hope they will share my joy.
    Thank you. :) sweethearts
    PS. Time to change profession for a while. CHEERS :#

    From my experience, Elementalist mains are masochists.

  • MarzAttakz.9608MarzAttakz.9608 Member ✭✭✭

    Deso since 2012. Elementalist for life.
    [EXG][TAG]

  • Arkaile.5604Arkaile.5604 Member ✭✭✭

    Three years since I first saw that video and it's still accurate, save we can now insert almost any other class in place of the necro.

    SHINIES!

  • kybraga.7103kybraga.7103 Member ✭✭✭

    Lack of consideration for older traits working in a more modern era.

    Earth's Embrace, Rock Solid, Cleansing Wave (Trait), Final Shielding, Bountiful Power, etc.

    These are traits I'd like to see looked at for possible revamping or getting piggy-backed onto other traits.

  • katniss.6735katniss.6735 Member ✭✭✭

    I posted this on the current livestream for WvW with the Devs, but it didn't get read:
    I feel like Elementalist is the class they give things to then take them away later. Like the focus leap distance nerf, and changing obsidian flesh to a channel (making you unable to use other skills) to stay alive other than lightning flash. I'm sure there are many other changes, but those definitely were an unwelcomed change.
    The aura share tempest is designed to be tanky/support, but it still doesn't have any access to resitence from skills. Even if we got 1s of resistence on application of an aura would be a massive change to the spec.
    When I play ele I feel like I should be staff weaver to be useful (best mobility), but even as full zerker, the damage feels way slower than other classes.

  • i am not that knowledgeable in the elementalist. only played sceptre/focus fresh air berserker and D/D condi/power/vitality builds.
    what i can say tho is that cataclyst is straight superior to core elem as it has access to very usefull breakstun giving the cataclyst more room for other skills.
    auras synergize well with fire archetype and its condi removal, regen on aura and its water archetype cleanse on regen or the protection on earth archetype aura.
    i wonder if reducing the overcharged attenuement channeling time would help giving it a superior edge in fights.
    as for core elem, it needs something that other spec don't have and not just one more archetype from core spec..

  • Tom Hsiao.9705Tom Hsiao.9705 Member ✭✭✭

    I think ele just needs permanent pet/ summon.. especially skills with staff takes a long time to trigger damage. I don’t think elementalist should be face tanking mobs... it’s a mage class why can’t ANet make it strong enough that can kill monster before it reaches their face. If you make the damage not so strong then at least give elementalist a permanent pet to tank for them while they channel and cast whatever skill at back line.

    In GW1 you can play elementalist casting at back line without worries because you can always put a tank in your team to tank for you.. GW2 nope.. nothing tanking for elementalist so staff is literally useless if you solo. And they try to fix this problem by introducing the sword so elementalist can get even closer to mobs and melee lol.

    Please rework the staff to instant cast and instant damage if you don’t wanna give elementalist a permanent tank.
    I really want to enjoy elementalist with staff and have been waiting for years for ANet to do something about staff and pet..but guess it’s never gonna happen...

    Don’t just argue for the sake of arguing, I don’t have time for trolls!

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    But you have elemental glyphs !
    Ah yeah, they have 3sec icd strike, 3/4 of their skills don't trigger your traits (as Lightning rod) and they die when you mount but it didn't recharge the CD. Very smart design.