Possible future expansion feature/mastery

EDIT - I'm deleting the original post and editing title since a lot of players don't seem to be reading beyond the title. I may also be confusing players into thinking I'm talking about a hero system like GW1. Please see my latest comment and I apologize if I was confusing you into thinking I'm talking about a GW1-like hero system.

I don’t really like the idea. There are not many story instances and they can easily be done alone. And in open world as well most can be done alone and for group content you can build a group with other players, so no need for heroes.

You severely under estimate the power coefficient of an extra actor, when working in concert as a coherent group comp. This would utterly break open world on multiple levels..... mechanical, technical, power creep, encounter balance, scaling, support skills, Mob AI behavior, the list is long and touches nearly every aspect of it. Even just in the presence of a second entity like with Ranger's pets, makes the majority of standard difficulty scale of content (which is open world and story instances) fairly easy just by taking aggro off the player. But Rangers are also balanced around a pet being 25% of their base line damage, causing the rest of the ranger to scale that much lower when given any type of external buffs, such a Might or % based traits. The mechanical advantage alone can double or triple the effectiveness of many classes when allowed to focus solely on one task.... and giving a thief a tank, is taking away the one thing that keeps them in check.

There is no way this is going to be a limited "%" effectiveness bonus, when you're dealing with altering of multiple combat dynamics. And this is on top of the fact that most builds allow for strong defensive aspects to be weaved in through choice of skills/traits, or opting for certain strategies. To build an entire expansion around this is to repeat the mistake of Nightfall- and that was a game designed around a party of 8, where most content in this game is designed around solo players already.

it sounds like a good idea on paper..... but the ramifications in practice are much greater on both social and mechanical levels.

While heroes/henchies were a great part of GW1, I don't see them working here. Primarily because they would behave like our current "heroes" do in story instances -- stand around and watch the fight. And I agree with @starlinvf.1358

Heroes were discussed before over here

Request thread-merge

Only place where heroes, or something similar to them, would work is inside story instances. Is it worth adding a completely new feature that will be played only in those? I don't think so. Updating the AI of the NPCs, and/or their skill set, would be enough.

I REALLY want them to add heroes, but I want them to be available for dungeons, not open world. Instanced content, it would allow people to dungeon at their own pace and not really break anything else.

@Ubi.4136 said:I REALLY want them to add heroes, but I want them to be available for dungeons, not open world. Instanced content, it would allow people to dungeon at their own pace and not really break anything else.

Generally I am wary of any suggestions for heroes - not that I am against it fundamentally, but the balance issues that it would cause. But if it was limited to a dungeon only team I could see that working. Dungeons are all but abandoned, so it isn't like there are any balance issues to be worried about there. The only problem I see with that is that it would then encourage people to request in fractals and / or raids as well, and I don't think it should be applied in those modes.

@Moonyeti.3296 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:I REALLY want them to add heroes, but I want them to be available for dungeons, not open world. Instanced content, it would allow people to dungeon at their own pace and not really break anything else.

The economy destroying potential of Mystic Forging account bound exotics into ones that can be sold/processed and a chance at rare, high value skins. While it sucked, dungeon rewards were nerfed for a reason. Making farming even more efficient for them is a step back in the direction toward that reason.

I hope not.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Moonyeti.3296 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:I REALLY want them to add heroes, but I want them to be available for dungeons, not open world. Instanced content, it would allow people to dungeon at their own pace and not really break anything else.

It wouldn't be a step back. Heroes and henchman in GW1 got drops (you never saw them). If you can solo a dungeon now, you get all the drops, but if you solo a dungeon with 7 heroes, you get 1/8th of the drops, so less loot. That is how it worked in GW1, and not like getting the occasional armor or weapon piece, eventually getting 4 to throw in the forge is going to be economy breaking. Tons of other farms will still be incredibly more effecient/profitable. It would just allow the casual/average player to do dungeon content at a pace they want.

@Ubi.4136 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Moonyeti.3296 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:I REALLY want them to add heroes, but I want them to be available for dungeons, not open world. Instanced content, it would allow people to dungeon at their own pace and not really break anything else.

Except drops are NOT the main reward for Dungeons. Its Tokens. And Tokens can be gained continually on a curve that resets daily. But what you're not acknowledging is Economy of scale. 1 Person doing it isn't a big deal. Several thousands doing it every day does. And unlike Istan farm, its not on a schedule.

never assume that just because it helps casuals, that hardcore players won't find a way to abuse the crap out of it. Since most "helping casual" features is to bump up rewards to close the gap, players simply do a bunch of dailies and then go off to a repeatable farm for the rest of day.

I would love it if they added Heroes. Another piece of proof that Anet is the Company that innovates and is always changing the very concept of what we know as an MMO.

Could you imagine, rolling into low areas as a necro on your raptor, then charging the event boss, unmounting with all minions and several heroes? Now, that times 10 players? 20?

I’ve posted about this before. I like the idea! But no one else does. ToT

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35075/ideas-heroes-system-masteries-for-gw2#latest

Mostly I just like having a party of custom characters I feel connect to my PC.

@"starlinvf.1358" said:You severely under estimate the power coefficient of an extra actor, when working in concert as a coherent group comp. This would utterly break open world on multiple levels..... mechanical, technical, power creep, encounter balance, scaling, support skills, Mob AI behavior, the list is long and touches nearly every aspect of it. Even just in the presence of a second entity like with Ranger's pets, makes the majority of standard difficulty scale of content (which is open world and story instances) fairly easy just by taking aggro off the player. But Rangers are also balanced around a pet being 25% of their base line damage, causing the rest of the ranger to scale that much lower when given any type of external buffs, such a Might or % based traits. The mechanical advantage alone can double or triple the effectiveness of many classes when allowed to focus solely on one task.... and giving a thief a tank, is taking away the one thing that keeps them in check.

There is no way this is going to be a limited "%" effectiveness bonus, when you're dealing with altering of multiple combat dynamics. And this is on top of the fact that most builds allow for strong defensive aspects to be weaved in through choice of skills/traits, or opting for certain strategies. To build an entire expansion around this is to repeat the mistake of Nightfall- and that was a game designed around a party of 8, where most content in this game is designed around solo players already.

it sounds like a good idea on paper..... but the ramifications in practice are much greater on both social and mechanical levels.

I can understand your concern, but it's way too overblown. There are other MMO's and other types of games that already added heroes like I mentioned, and it doesn't cause these problems you're worried about (when done properly, of course).

Heroes in open world MMO's are nothing like heroes in GW1. In GW1, you always do contents designed for a party so your heroes need to be every bit as powerful as a real player. In open world MMO's, heroes are minor additions that have very little HP, very little damage, etc. You do not need to worry about a Thief with a tank hero not having to worry about aggro at all. The heroes won't survive long enough that it completely negates a player's own effort to survive.

To explain in a way so players who never played these games can have an idea, having a damaging hero is like having one more damaging ability. Depending on your build, players already carry like 10 damaging abilities, so 1 more is nothing. A healer hero is like having 1 extra healing skill, which is not even as powerful as the vast majority of self heals players use in skill slot 6. A tank hero is like having a skill that blocks a few regular attacks since a tank hero will not hold aggro, nor will it even have the survivability to fight even a regular enemy alone for 5 seconds.

The percentage I added was just to give players an idea. In reality, it's not that high. In fact, some players simply not use heroes in these games because the increase is so trivial and heroes have a tendency to aggro extra enemies.

no, also "but other games do it" is a poor argument. just go play those games then

Although I like the idea, I fear the substantial threat of seeing an extreme spike in powercreep, much worse than HoT/PoF elites

@BlueJin.4127 Why don't you bring friends to help you in the story instances instead of doing them alone?

Perhaps they could just improve the NPC AI so they don't stand idly while you get bashed up or are in downed state?Y'know, make NPCs actually useful.

You may be interested in https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sunspear_Paragon_Support

as is, Story mode is boring to me. I dont like that my character is the main hero. I prefer the army itself being the main hero not individual character that changes depending on what character I am playing. This could give it that Army feel I was looking for.

Just like gw1 it would reduce the need to play with others so... bad idea if you ask me.Plus the game isn’t that hard, how would you balance fractals and older content for this?

No more AI.

Rather have them make the current NPS we have useful, able to do damage among other things.