Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

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  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    • Stealth (under 4s): good
    • Long stealth (over 4s): fine, but should have some kind of indicator or restriction (eg. shadow refuge, sneak gyro)
    • Perma stealth (indefinite): really boring. It basically means one player can hide forever and only engage when they're sure they can win. There's no incentive to fight. Reveal was supposed to fix this, but DE just cancels it, so it's pointless.

    However, I rarely see perma-stealth these days because the marked debuff is everywhere on t3 towers and sentries.

    I still see a few running around. Came across a ghost condi one a week or so ago.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2019

    Here's a nice fun and engaging fight I have with 1 deadeye who sits in perma stealth and will follow you around all evening just to kill and corpse jump you. This isn't fun and engaging gameplay by a large margin.

    https://imgur.com/a/ERPnYSz

    @Gaile Gray.6029 Any chance you can pass this on to the skill team as they don't seem to be aware that you can be instantly killed without ever knowing a dead eye was there because assassin's signet gives so much power damage.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

    But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

    But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

    I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klypto.1703 said:
    Bleh the people who complain about stealth also complain about anything else they don't know or don't care to learn how to fight against. So if this were to happen they would just find something else that I killed them with to QQ about. Especially rofl I go on rev and I was like you saw me coming right but then they go oh yer able to react too fast with rev and we go back to square one were they don't realize its not the class its not the stealth its you.

    Granted, people who get salty when they lose are going to find something to be salty about. But that doesn't mean that the design of mechanics like stealth aren't problematic. People have a point when they bring up the fact that pretty much every MMO has stealth mechanics and that GW2 stands out with its unrestricted version of stealth. Personally, I think it's a legitimate question to ask why they decided to go this way and to evaluate whether or not this is truly beneficial or necessary.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).
    i know , i know not really reliable tells :3
    one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

    i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.
    i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.
    but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Gemnaid.4219Gemnaid.4219 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes they are.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).
    i know , i know not really reliable tells :3
    one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

    i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.
    i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.
    but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

    I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.
    I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.
    This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

    But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

    I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

    If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

    The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

    Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

    My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

    I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

    Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.
    I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.
    This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

    Well, it's kind of funny that it was "long cooldowns" in a way... with one single exception - smokefield jumping. That's what kept the vanilla thief basicly permastealthing and that's what still feeds the stealth of the d/p today. Lets just... ignore the rifle dodging.

    A long time ago when I was young and naive I made a single suggestion to fix all that - you cannot combo in your own fields, only allies fields. It would have literally nerfed all classes and still kept strong solo builds down today while putting more emphasis on teamwork.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

    But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

    I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

    If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

    The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

    Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

    My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

    I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

    Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

    The guy goes after anyone, he stays in perma stealth near duel spots waiting for someone and then one shots them or will interrupt duels all evening. He will also then follow anyone he doesn't manage to one shot for the rest of the evening calling in his friend who runs the same build (though his friend is bad at it) to essentially grief you.

    I suspect you don't get one shot by this guy because as far as I've seen (or not seen) the only 2 I've run into are both on Ruins of Surmia so if you aren't fighting them you're not likely to find the kind of lame players who do this just to urinate on everyone's bonfire for a few hours every evening. He also tends to follow you around if you don't go offline and will often appear on the same border after 10 minutes stalking you.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.
    I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.
    This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

    Well, it's kind of funny that it was "long cooldowns" in a way... with one single exception - smokefield jumping. That's what kept the vanilla thief basicly permastealthing and that's what still feeds the stealth of the d/p today. Lets just... ignore the rifle dodging.

    A long time ago when I was young and naive I made a single suggestion to fix all that - you cannot combo in your own fields, only allies fields. It would have literally nerfed all classes and still kept strong solo builds down today while putting more emphasis on teamwork.

    Kind of, at the release thieves played d/d, d/d sllows to enter stealth just as easy as d/p.
    About your suggestions I like it (although I would prefer to remove stealth entirely from game).

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

    But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

    I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

    If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

    The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

    Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

    My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

    I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

    Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

    The guy goes after anyone, he stays in perma stealth near duel spots waiting for someone and then one shots them or will interrupt duels all evening. He will also then follow anyone he doesn't manage to one shot for the rest of the evening calling in his friend who runs the same build (though his friend is bad at it) to essentially grief you.

    I suspect you don't get one shot by this guy because as far as I've seen (or not seen) the only 2 I've run into are both on Ruins of Surmia so if you aren't fighting them you're not likely to find the kind of lame players who do this just to urinate on everyone's bonfire for a few hours every evening. He also tends to follow you around if you don't go offline and will often appear on the same border after 10 minutes stalking you.

    So he is likely on one of the links, or you are (as that is likely the only way he knows what Border you are on) Yes, I’ve dealt with toxic people and it DOES get to the point where you feel like your day/night gets ruined. I feel for you on that.

    I guess my point is only that this type of player will use Any class they feel will get an advantage. Wouldn’t shock me if stealth was removed if you’d just see him in a Condi mirage.

    But no, I haven’t faced that server. So I do not know your particular pain, though I can emphasize. GL to you.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    n suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class do you play so we all know what we're allowed to play?

    I am not just suggesting it, I think it is the only fair and sensible way forward.

    I do not care about warriors or guardians, because they don't shoot for 20+k damage out of stealth. Or jump in, do 17k damage, jump away, jump in a short while later for a second 17k hit.

    Like thiefs or mesmers do.

    A LOT.

    So enjoy your broken classes you love so much. Because it seems you are only concerned about your own fun: hitting others who have no idea you are coming, then retreat into stealth, so you don't have to fear retribution.

    But hey, there is another way to fix thieves and mesmers and all their elites once and for all without removing them or stealth.

    Really.

    It is really simple too.

    Just divide their maximum, their median and their minimum damage by 10. And half their hp.

    You don't take any risks? Fine. You don't do any damage.

    THAT would be balanced.

    I know it’s crazy the amount of daredevils running around ruining people,oh wait lol,the impact they have on zergs bouncing in and out is trivial and usually get eaten by scourge condis in seconds,in duels they are far less a threat than soulbeast,mirage and holo’s,even core guard out burst them and have far more tools to sustain the fight longer. Glad ur not in charge of balancing or there would be even more soulbeast and holos running around lol

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).
    i know , i know not really reliable tells :3
    one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

    i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.
    i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.
    but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

    I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

    for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:
    no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.
    the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

    BTT:
    in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.
    next suggestion:
    as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.
    this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

    why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:
    stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).
    i know , i know not really reliable tells :3
    one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

    i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.
    i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.
    but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

    I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

    for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:
    no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.
    the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

    BTT:
    in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.
    next suggestion:
    as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.
    this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

    why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:
    stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

    Oh it has been removed, strange I usually get a thing from the moderator saying "you quoted blah blah blah removed, blah blah blah no points". Anyway I wasn't making it personal I just remember you saying a while back when we talked about perma stealth you mentioned you'd likely stop playing if they ever stopped you being able to do it. If I'm mistaken my bad but I wasn't having a jab at you.

    How does footsteps translate to people at range? We have DE that can triple shot you for 7k+, soulbeasts that can do crazy things like 17k autos, Coalescence of ruin my day or phase smash can insta kill thieves, eles and guards in marauder, thankfully revs can't stealth themselves but you do see it. I don't think the footsteps solution is really workable as it still gives no indication to a +1 from perma stealth till too late no matter how good you are.

    If you reduce the max duration you have better control over the engage range from stealth, put simply it becomes impossible to stealth up and engage people without them having seen you first unless out of LoS.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    n suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class do you play so we all know what we're allowed to play?

    I am not just suggesting it, I think it is the only fair and sensible way forward.

    I do not care about warriors or guardians, because they don't shoot for 20+k damage out of stealth. Or jump in, do 17k damage, jump away, jump in a short while later for a second 17k hit.

    Warriors, Guards, Rangers, and Revenants beat me a lot with incredible burst even when I can see it coming (at lot of it unblockable). What world/timezone do you play to never see these?

    Like thiefs or mesmers do.

    A LOT.

    So enjoy your broken classes you love so much. Because it seems you are only concerned about your own fun: hitting others who have no idea you are coming, then retreat into stealth, so you don't have to fear retribution.

    That's interesting that you totally know my build, when in fact you don't. I have not been carrying a lot of stealth or running PU for a long time. Usually running boon support or playing my Ranger or Guardian.

    >

    But hey, there is another way to fix thieves and mesmers and all their elites once and for all without removing them or stealth.

    Really.

    It is really simple too.

    Just divide their maximum, their median and their minimum damage by 10. And half their hp.

    You don't take any risks? Fine. You don't do any damage.

    THAT would be balanced.

    You really need to learn to play, stop being so angry, and not expect ANet to remove 2/9 classes (that 2/9th of people paid for again, you keep missing that) because they are playing what you think is badwrongfun.

    If this forum would let me ignore your posts like I can block you in game, I would.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 - Would it be possible to get any discussions of Stealth on the same list as matchup threads? You will never get people that will not learn the game to stop arguing for some of the worst ideas about stealth out there...

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WARNING: Wall.

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

    while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).
    i know , i know not really reliable tells :3
    one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

    i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.
    i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.
    but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

    I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

    for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:
    no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.
    the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

    BTT:
    in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.
    next suggestion:
    as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.
    this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

    why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:
    stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

    Oh it has been removed, strange I usually get a thing from the moderator saying "you quoted blah blah blah removed, blah blah blah no points". Anyway I wasn't making it personal I just remember you saying a while back when we talked about perma stealth you mentioned you'd likely stop playing if they ever stopped you being able to do it. If I'm mistaken my bad but I wasn't having a jab at you.

    during that time the only thing i was doing is hiding in keeps/towers, i obviously would have to stop doing that if stealth gets nerfed too much. and wasnt sure if i would be up to doing something else. right now i do roam more 'normal' and also play more PvE for gold and stuff (increased account value by 50% since mark changes, really worth it). i have seen several times people be like 'anet should nerf your build to be trash so you feel how it is fighting you now' , so i was just trying to make sure you dont fall for that train of thought, because i simply will play another build if 'my build' becomes trash.

    How does footsteps translate to people at range? We have DE that can triple shot you for 7k+, soulbeasts that can do crazy things like 17k autos, Coalescence of ruin my day or phase smash can insta kill thieves, eles and guards in marauder, thankfully revs can't stealth themselves but you do see it. I don't think the footsteps solution is really workable as it still gives no indication to a +1 from perma stealth till too late no matter how good you are.

    they dont help with range. yet range only does onehit on first hit in a 1 vs 1 situation on a soulbeast who cannot maintain enough stealth to be 'out of nowhere'. the ranger basically has to know you are coming to prestack it out of your LoS . then again they could just use LoS+FoV without any stealth to do the same.
    if you are fighting a group with people who stealth others, yeah well many professions dont have visuals from stealth like phase smash.

    If you reduce the max duration you have better control over the engage range from stealth, put simply it becomes impossible to stealth up and engage people without them having seen you first unless out of LoS.

    indeed it would work for fighting against someone using stealth, thats now what i question. but there is always 2 players in the encounter. especially when asking for nerfs people often dont try to see that from the other side of the encounter. with reduced max duration, would you think anyone would even invest as much into stealth that it becomes relevant for them? you just use other tools as they are not as clunky and working against each other aswell as possibly much stronger now with such a new mechanic. obviously you 'solve' the problem by making sure one side of the encounter simply doesnt exist anymore. but it would be better to seek a solution that keeps both players in mind. and thats not just about thieves, basically most nerf suggestions only try to preserve the fun of one side instead of slowly taking steps with discussing to find an acceptable middle ground.

    so for you to maybe understand my view: i actually to sympathsize with most complains against stealth. its just that most suggestions while not explicitly complaining about my main reason to utilize stealth, still do affect it. so i will keep trying to 'defend' the aspects of stealth i want use, this often results in disagreeing with suggestions based on complains that i would agree with.
    as said now probably 100 times i mainly build for stealth to avoid certain fights entirely. but putting so many stealth tools into the build, the fights i do engage in are shaped alot by this investment. i dont 'need' ambushes and could do without the resets, if i had other tools in the build. i actually do agree with main complains about the current stealth: ambush and reset. those are things that heavily affect the way i play other professions. you cannot be too squishy or you will fall prey to an ambush and if your damage is too low the speed of stealth resets will make a variety of builds lose over time. also not to forget the annoyance factor, i dont want to know how many people i made ragequit for a day or more. but on the other hand i dont think using the stealth for the main reason i use it for (avoiding certain fight alltogether) is much of an issue, even if it would inculde areas in keep/tower as i then would only have 1 try on the lord and not like 'oups got spotted, back to stealth rotation'. thats why i want stealth to change and not to be just nerfed. i wouldnt mind it to be removed entirely as 'combat mechanic' but more as a 'role mechanic', obviously with a major overhaul to many thief things. for example making the only stealth access for thief an elite toggle (maybe signet category, working like a facet) this toggle grants stealth and the thief takes reduced damage, it can only be activated out of combat or even out of sight from hostile opponents. but it disables all other skills for the time being in stealth. when you turn the toggle off manually, your own damage is reduced by 50% for 3 seconds to avoid using it for an ambush. however if you do get revealed by other professions or whatever envoiremental mechanic you do full damage right away. this would preserve the role while getting rid of ambush and stealth resets.
    but that would be a massive change that i simply do not see realistically to happen, and then again thats just me, there is some people who define solo roaming as a sperate 'mode' in wich than every profession needs to be able to perform well. i see it as a role that thief does and as a very selfish profession should excell at. while other professions shouldnt be just prey for the thief, they do not need to be able to solo roam with the same efficiency, wich mainly boils down to the potential to avoid engaging in some fights. the main reason some other profession do well in solo roaming is the lack of WvW population. its easy to avoid fight with mobility, if there is pretty much noone on the map and noone cares for the match to begin with.
    i am totally oke with thieves being punished to picking wrong fights based on their tools. right now when you build for stealth its hard to pick a wrong fight as your reset ability is part of your tools. (!!! talking here about solo roaming, small scale/havoc is a different role)

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Loke.1429Loke.1429 Member ✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    for me this is not about a specific class or something like that, its feedback to anet that permastealth is bad game design, and that it makes me stop playing because its so boring to fight against. Its plain ol' broken. Some games have perma-stealth but reveal on proximity and I dont think I've ever seen a game that lets a player frontload so much damage from stealth and restealth so easily. It does the opposite of inviting fun reactive skill based gameplay, therefore i think it is rubbish

  • I think predator style cloak would end most arguments and is usually what most pvp games do. Hard to see when still but if paying attention u can spot cloaked players while their on the move,maybe give them 25% movement while cloaked to help balance their low sustain

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I think predator style cloak would end most arguments and is usually what most pvp games do. Hard to see when still but if paying attention u can spot cloaked players while their on the move,maybe give them 25% movement while cloaked to help balance their low sustain

    Gee, that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that one before, I mean really, sounds like Deja Vu...

    Huh, right on the tip of my tongue...

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Haha yeah I kno I’ve repeated it few times over last few months lol but I think I could definitely work if done right

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually fighting Deadeye ...a good Deadeye...is like fighting The Predator. GET TO THE CHOPPAH!...Seriously though. Takes multiple people to hunt down really good thieves and mesmers and engineers. One of the older Jade Quarry sayings, "Never hunt alone." We meant it.

  • i really hope they will do something about it in this next balance update

  • I can say that stealth its so unreal as magic, since when you just "dissapear" into nothingness before your enemy eyes? But i must say that thieves should be more stelthy than other classes, but there is no sense in someone battling you in melee and suddenly puff, it dissapears. i have seen games where stealth is controled by a proximity mechanic, so you cant abuse from the invulnerability that provides, when you get in a certain distance from the enemy you will get detected no matter what.

    That way stealth is used by an anticipation and ambush mechanic, the enemy will not know you are coming so will not be prepared and you will strike first, always, but you will not magically vanish in the middle of a battle, in front of your enemy eyes, which is the problem that annoys people.

    Fall down seven times, get up eight.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    Problem with stealth IMO are the lack of validations coded to the game(reveal on take damage etc), stealth is badly design from core to make players feel they are strong, was initially made w/o counters because GW2 is ment to carry the most kitten player with some awfull gimmicks(low effeort gameplay high rewards, not much team play is actually needed).

    Stealth will never work in a "natural way" due that Anet developers mentality, and the current AOE SPAM and expecting way more aoe spam and stronger with the next expantions Stealth will never work like a clever mechanics, it m8 also get even more designed to carry the players in future actually.

    Note: With the current lvl's of lame spam and the "friendly unskiled designed combat helps arround the aoe and spam class desig Anet is doing" stealth needs to be junk by default.
    ´
    Junk mechanics are the way gw2 is ment to be played and designed, simple and dumb.

    /sorry the bad english.

  • Loke.1429Loke.1429 Member ✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Problem with stealth IMO are the lack of validations coded to the game(reveal on take damage etc), stealth is badly design from core to make players feel they are strong, was initially made w/o counters because GW2 is ment to carry the most kitten player with some awfull gimmicks(low effeort gameplay high rewards, not much team play is actually needed).

    Stealth will never work in a "natural way" due that Anet developers mentality, and the current AOE SPAM and expecting way more aoe spam and stronger with the next expantions Stealth will never work like a clever mechanics, it m8 also get even more designed to carry the players in future actually.

    Note: With the current lvl's of lame spam and the "friendly unskiled designed combat helps arround the aoe and spam class desig Anet is doing" stealth needs to be junk by default.
    ´
    Junk mechanics are the way gw2 is ment to be played and designed, simple and dumb.

    /sorry the bad english.

    I agree, from the start stealth was made a crutch/not counterable and then became very broken / not a good mechanic (escepically after stealth became much more accessible / higher uptimes. In balance patch they will reduce theif stealth on dodge, and I'm unsure how much that will affect

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Problem with stealth IMO are the lack of validations coded to the game(reveal on take damage etc), stealth is badly design from core to make players feel they are strong, was initially made w/o counters because GW2 is ment to carry the most kitten player with some awfull gimmicks(low effeort gameplay high rewards, not much team play is actually needed).

    Stealth will never work in a "natural way" due that Anet developers mentality, and the current AOE SPAM and expecting way more aoe spam and stronger with the next expantions Stealth will never work like a clever mechanics, it m8 also get even more designed to carry the players in future actually.

    Note: With the current lvl's of lame spam and the "friendly unskiled designed combat helps arround the aoe and spam class desig Anet is doing" stealth needs to be junk by default.
    ´
    Junk mechanics are the way gw2 is ment to be played and designed, simple and dumb.

    /sorry the bad english.

    I agree, from the start stealth was made a crutch/not counterable and then became very broken / not a good mechanic (escepically after stealth became much more accessible / higher uptimes. In balance patch they will reduce theif stealth on dodge, and I'm unsure how much that will affect

    the patch itself is only a nerf to rifle deadeye not to overall thieves access to stealth. it just puts rifle to be more or less as bad as p/p, wich should be enough to make it a rarity. however nothing stops you from still permastealthing with d/p (easiest as daredevil tho, wich has lower burst and more defense than deadeye: less oneshots, more annoyance).

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Never going to happen lol

    I know how you feel though.. even since the early days of Gw2 i've despised the stealth mechanic in PvP game modes.. I've always associated as a cheap way for anyone regardless of skill level to get easy kills.. and for years I think a lot of players felt the same way.

    I've always felt that at least in PvP modes stealth should have motion blurr.. so when a stealth player moves around they leave a distortion that players can track even though they can't lock onto them forcing the thief to stop moving if they want to maintain actual invisible stealth.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    2k19 and ppl still crying about stealth mechanic, omegalul (non-stealth main class user speaking)

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    2k19 and ppl still crying about stealth mechanic, omegalul (non-stealth main class user speaking)

    Because learning to play is hard.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Loke.1429Loke.1429 Member ✭✭
    edited March 4, 2019

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well and it's fun to play, too much consecutive uptime is a problem, but one issue doesn't make the whole mechanic a problem.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • The 20 seconds of invuln, and run away constantly to reset a fight is kitten is a close second and third

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    2k19 and ppl still crying about stealth mechanic, omegalul (non-stealth main class user speaking)

    I abused the hell out of Silent Scope. It needed a very serious nerf and it receives it with this patch. I play meta and I don't apologize for it but the Dead Eye Trick/CS Rifle build was stupid OP. Cracking someone from stealth with 3k armor for 12k plus and vanishing a second later or pumping another 10k plus in burst into them then vanishing was too easy. About the only thing that countered the build was near full uptime on Reflect and even then Binding Shadow was a hard counter.

    Even with the massive nerf to Silent Scope, Dead Eye is still going to be strong.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LordEnki.9283 said:
    The 20 seconds of invuln, and run away constantly to reset a fight is kitten is a close second and third

    I agree. Also people act like Stealth is the end all be all to disengage/reset. Pretty much every WvW solo roamer you see will attempt to run away and reset when things go south on any profession. Engies stealth/rocketboots, Warriors Nike (some really insecure ones only fight by water so they can run), Rangers Stealth/Swoop/, Thieves Stealth/SS/Shortbow, Rev ports to ambients, Mesmer stealth/port/double port. Even Guardians will see themselves losing and just bide time until they can JI/S2 towards an ambient. I also have seen plenty of well played Elementalists who will still flash and reset. Necros seem to be the only ones due to how they really can't run/reset.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I agree. Also people act like Stealth is the end all be all to disengage/reset. Pretty much every WvW solo roamer you see will attempt to run away and reset when things go south on any profession.

    I agree with the "all roamer classes going to reset" point but only a handful of builds can go invis AND move 3k plus away from a fight in a near instant. Dead Eye never should have gotten that huge mobility and stealth off of one weapon.

    The fact that look-back allows them to move fast in any direction simply makes for an infuriatingly difficult fight with little chance of escape. I have to ask what Anet was thinking actually... all the mobility of the short bow, with the damage of backstab, a thunderous auto attack and stealth on demand without having to burn init. They tripled down on everything people hated about thieves into one weapon. It felt abusive playing it and it felt more abused dying to it.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @Straegen.2938 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I agree. Also people act like Stealth is the end all be all to disengage/reset. Pretty much every WvW solo roamer you see will attempt to run away and reset when things go south on any profession.

    I agree with the "all roamer classes going to reset" point but only a handful of builds can go invis AND move 3k plus away from a fight in a near instant. Dead Eye never should have gotten that huge mobility and stealth off of one weapon.

    The fact that look-back allows them to move fast in any direction simply makes for an infuriatingly difficult fight with little chance of escape. I have to ask what Anet was thinking actually... all the mobility of the short bow, with the damage of backstab, a thunderous auto attack and stealth on demand without having to burn init. They tripled down on everything people hated about thieves into one weapon. It felt abusive playing it and it felt more abused dying to it.

    A 600 range port that costs half or 1/3rd of the Thief's initiative pool is really giving you that much trouble? If the Thief has enough initiative to use that 600 range port more than once, then they really shouldn't have been doing damage to you...
    Have you tried soulbeast?

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    Did you read my post or just see the word stealth and get triggered and posted the usual rant?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    Did you read my post or just see the word stealth and get triggered and posted the usual rant?

    You claimed stealth was well designed, I gave one of the reasons as to why it is not, if you have difficulty understanding that, then that is your problem.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    you seem to 1 vs 1 for the node in spvp , and 1 vs 1 for no reason in WvW. in both modes just the kill alone already does provide score, so its as usefull to fight for fighting sake, while ignoring the nodes in a spvp match as it is in a WvW match.
    start fighting over something in WvW and you will win when your opponent disengages for the same reasons it works in spvp.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    you seem to 1 vs 1 for the node in spvp , and 1 vs 1 for no reason in WvW. in both modes just the kill alone already does provide score, so its as usefull to fight for fighting sake, while ignoring the nodes in a spvp match as it is in a WvW match.
    start fighting over something in WvW and you will win when your opponent disengages for the same reasons it works in spvp.

    The difference being WvW basically fails as a competitive game mode where "winning" is based on population/coverage, dull game play like PvDoor and most matches are a foregone conclusion. So most veteran players do not really care about "winning" beyond any preference they may have for whom they face next match, which can also mean deliberately losing.

    Then beyond that, the actions of a roamer are basically irrelevant to the score, not only are you a tiny unit out of thousands, you only play a small portion of the total match (unless one has no life), so will not change that outcome of a match in a game mode where there is such imbalance and matches are not remotely close most of the time.

    Which is why even entire zergs will sit at south camp spot doing "blob vs blob" whilst they lose objectives on another map or why some roamers let others capture a camp to have a 1v1 afterwards, because the mode is fundamentally broken as a competitive PvP match and it doesn't really matter one bit whether you lose some camp or not.

    Where as PvP actually functions as a competitive game mode, you are 1 of 5 people and you play the entire duration, so people (yes AFK'ers aside) are bothered about winning so that gives meaningful value to capturing/keeping a node or killing an opponent as they try to rotate to the next node. In PvP your actions as an individual actually matter in a way they don't as a roamer in a WvW match and is why a PvP player is actually bothered about a capture node in a way most roamers are not bothered about a camp/guard spot, etc in WvW.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    you seem to 1 vs 1 for the node in spvp , and 1 vs 1 for no reason in WvW. in both modes just the kill alone already does provide score, so its as usefull to fight for fighting sake, while ignoring the nodes in a spvp match as it is in a WvW match.
    start fighting over something in WvW and you will win when your opponent disengages for the same reasons it works in spvp.

    The difference being WvW basically fails as a competitive game mode where "winning" is based on population/coverage, dull game play like PvDoor and most matches are a foregone conclusion. So most veteran players do not really care about "winning" beyond any preference they may have for whom they face next match, which can also mean deliberately losing.

    Then beyond the actions of a roamer are basically irrelevant to the score, not only are you a tiny unit out of thousands, you only play a small portion of the total match (unless one has no life), so will not change that outcome of a match. Which is why even entire zergs will sit at south camp spot doing "blob vs blob" whilst they lose objectives on another map or why some roamers let others capture a camp to have a 1v1 afterwards, because the mode is fundamentally broken as a competitive PvP match.

    Where as PvP actually functions as a competitive game mode, you are 1 of 5 people and you play the entire duration, so people (yes AFK'ers aside) are bothered about winning so that gives meaningful value to capturing/keeping a node or killing an opponent as they try to rotate to the next node, it is all about the objectives the in conquest in a way it isn't in WvW.

    so its not stealth that is the problem, but the players not playing competitive. sure the gamemode being designed in a impossible to balance way by requireing large teams for 168 hours is a major reason for this, but it doesnt change the fact that you only dont see it as a win there, because YOU choose to not bother about the match.
    but shouldnt you then use your time more asking to make the mode more relevant instead of wasting your time with effectst that are just a byproduct of the design flaw?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    you seem to 1 vs 1 for the node in spvp , and 1 vs 1 for no reason in WvW. in both modes just the kill alone already does provide score, so its as usefull to fight for fighting sake, while ignoring the nodes in a spvp match as it is in a WvW match.
    start fighting over something in WvW and you will win when your opponent disengages for the same reasons it works in spvp.

    The difference being WvW basically fails as a competitive game mode where "winning" is based on population/coverage, dull game play like PvDoor and most matches are a foregone conclusion. So most veteran players do not really care about "winning" beyond any preference they may have for whom they face next match, which can also mean deliberately losing.

    Then beyond the actions of a roamer are basically irrelevant to the score, not only are you a tiny unit out of thousands, you only play a small portion of the total match (unless one has no life), so will not change that outcome of a match. Which is why even entire zergs will sit at south camp spot doing "blob vs blob" whilst they lose objectives on another map or why some roamers let others capture a camp to have a 1v1 afterwards, because the mode is fundamentally broken as a competitive PvP match.

    Where as PvP actually functions as a competitive game mode, you are 1 of 5 people and you play the entire duration, so people (yes AFK'ers aside) are bothered about winning so that gives meaningful value to capturing/keeping a node or killing an opponent as they try to rotate to the next node, it is all about the objectives the in conquest in a way it isn't in WvW.

    so its not stealth that is the problem, but the players not playing competitive. sure the gamemode being designed in a impossible to balance way by requireing large teams for 168 hours is a major reason for this, but it doesnt change the fact that you only dont see it as a win there, because YOU choose to not bother about the match.
    but shouldnt you then use your time more asking to make the mode more relevant instead of wasting your time with effectst that are just a byproduct of the design flaw?

    I wouldn't say it is a choice to ignore the match, I just think that is the logical outcome for anyone sane given how imbalanced WvW matches, you can't make yourself care about "winning" when as a competition it is completely broken and not fit-for-purpose. But putting that aside even if by some miracle they had some system where WvW matches were competitive and there was a reason to care, it would still only mean stealth would be a bit better balanced than it is currently in WvW, there would still be other issues.

    Such as the map size, open spaces and team size also make things like stealth / high mobility much stronger (imbalanced) in WvW than PvP where the capture points are much closer together (and also generally smaller than things like camps), there is much more LOS and much more being forced to fight over the capture point.

    So sure one way to look at it is the basics of stealth are okay and it is WvW the game mode that is the problem, but that doesn't change that in WvW stealth (and many other things that don't really work there on the same basis as in PvP) is broken OP, so people will moan about it. Or do what most of the WvW population has done which is either leave the game, go to PvP or play WvW a lot less.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Loke.1429 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    Because learning to play is hard.

    not for everyone, but some people need their crutch-mechanics apparently..

    This is not a discussion primarily about balance and definitely not about skill, for me it was about enjoyable game-play, and how way too much stealth / too much up-time is making the game less enjoyable through lack of counters, long waits / fights that take way too long, fights that are only entertaining for one side (because nobody likes to wait, usually until the stealther mans up again with disengage and full health).

    Additionally the stealth in this game is a bit poorly designed, since its so accessible even mid fight, and so much damage can be done from stealth, with server lag making players appear later then the damage etc., even ranged attacks can do this. Stealth classes have some of the best mobility also, quite silly really

    The stealth in this game is designed well....

    Nah it really isn't, but that aside stealth like pretty much every other aspect of combat was mainly designed and tuned around PvP conquest. Which is why in PvP stealth is basically fine because the biggest balance to it is the game mode itself. You think you are going to lose a fight in PvP then if you are on something that can easily disengage (stealth and/or high mobility) then it is fine, because you get punished for it by losing the capture point to your opponent, they are rewarded for outplaying you, you are punished for being outplayed / screwing up, as it should be.

    In WvW roaming on the other hand stealth (and high mobility) are completely broken, I can play say mirage go attack some guy 1v1 get outplayed and then mostly disengage if I want, so I don't get punished for being outplayed, my opponent does not get rewarded for outplaying me, that breaks a key aspect of game design (PvP especially) risk vs reward. Just one of the many reasons WvW is a joke game mode and roaming died years ago.

    you seem to 1 vs 1 for the node in spvp , and 1 vs 1 for no reason in WvW. in both modes just the kill alone already does provide score, so its as usefull to fight for fighting sake, while ignoring the nodes in a spvp match as it is in a WvW match.
    start fighting over something in WvW and you will win when your opponent disengages for the same reasons it works in spvp.

    The difference being WvW basically fails as a competitive game mode where "winning" is based on population/coverage, dull game play like PvDoor and most matches are a foregone conclusion. So most veteran players do not really care about "winning" beyond any preference they may have for whom they face next match, which can also mean deliberately losing.

    Then beyond the actions of a roamer are basically irrelevant to the score, not only are you a tiny unit out of thousands, you only play a small portion of the total match (unless one has no life), so will not change that outcome of a match. Which is why even entire zergs will sit at south camp spot doing "blob vs blob" whilst they lose objectives on another map or why some roamers let others capture a camp to have a 1v1 afterwards, because the mode is fundamentally broken as a competitive PvP match.

    Where as PvP actually functions as a competitive game mode, you are 1 of 5 people and you play the entire duration, so people (yes AFK'ers aside) are bothered about winning so that gives meaningful value to capturing/keeping a node or killing an opponent as they try to rotate to the next node, it is all about the objectives the in conquest in a way it isn't in WvW.

    so its not stealth that is the problem, but the players not playing competitive. sure the gamemode being designed in a impossible to balance way by requireing large teams for 168 hours is a major reason for this, but it doesnt change the fact that you only dont see it as a win there, because YOU choose to not bother about the match.
    but shouldnt you then use your time more asking to make the mode more relevant instead of wasting your time with effectst that are just a byproduct of the design flaw?

    I wouldn't say it is a choice to ignore the match, I just think that is the logical outcome for anyone sane given how imbalanced WvW matches, you can't make yourself care about "winning" when as a competition it is completely broken and not fit-for-purpose. But putting that aside even if by some miracle they had some system where WvW matches were competitive and there was a reason to care, it would still only mean stealth would be a bit better balanced than it is currently in WvW, there would still be other issues.

    Such as the map size and open spaces also make things like stealth / high mobility much stronger (imbalanced) in WvW than PvP where the capture points are much closer together (and also generally smaller than things like camps), there is much more LOS and much more being forced to fight over the capture point.

    So sure you can say the basics of stealth are okay and it is WvW the game mode, but that doesn't change that in WvW stealth (and many other things that don't really work there on the same basis as in PvP) is broken OP, so people will moan about it. Or do what most of the WvW population has done which is either leave the game, go to PvP or play WvW a lot less.

    it is a choice to ignore the match mechanics.
    you see the game should be balanced around the winning conditions in the match. competing in any form is usually more fun the more balanced it is. you can still compete in the match without putting much value in the outcome, knowing that it is not really balanced.
    when people play for anything beside the match goal, that has 2 effects: they might think themselves better than they are as they 'compete' over something with their opponent, that those do not care about and have no reason to. aswell as they often add themselves extra rules for play and get upset when others dont follow them.
    example for nr1: one player who wants to capture a camp and a 2nd who just wants to win a 1 vs 1. the outcome can be that both players win or both players lose ontop of 1 lose , 1 win.
    example for nr2: all the siege hate, hate for specific professions for being 'cheese', complaning about being outnumbered in an encounter (in a match is a valid complain, but not in an encounter)

    stealth and mobility both mostly play a role in 1 vs X wich would be such a minor role if the maps were full for the entire duration of the map, the roamers would be like in pvp mostly +1 and people would be more spread instead of omniblob if the mode had full maps and was played competitive.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    2k19 and ppl still crying about stealth mechanic, omegalul (non-stealth main class user speaking)

    I abused the hell out of Silent Scope. It needed a very serious nerf and it receives it with this patch. I play meta and I don't apologize for it but the Dead Eye Trick/CS Rifle build was stupid OP. Cracking someone from stealth with 3k armor for 12k plus and vanishing a second later or pumping another 10k plus in burst into them then vanishing was too easy. About the only thing that countered the build was near full uptime on Reflect and even then Binding Shadow was a hard counter.

    Even with the massive nerf to Silent Scope, Dead Eye is still going to be strong.

    That's why the DE was OP, not whole Stealth Mechanic. Don't nerf whole thing just because 1 class specialization is not balanced. At least after X time ANet noticed that and theyre trying to fix it, silent scope nerf is really good in my opinion, no more free camping for handless people. We will see if it fixes whole problem, or is it just a good start of balance age

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

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