WvW Roaming Class Standings — Guild Wars 2 Forums

WvW Roaming Class Standings

knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭
edited December 7, 2018 in WvW

Hello people, I recently made a post in the Holosmith forums about peoples thoughts of Holosmith being an overpowered roaming class. I got a lot of feedback that I found interesting but it made me think, if Holosmith (or any other class/build for that matter) is overpowered, what classes are considered well tuned or just right?

So what classes do you think are the most overpowered (from a roaming perspective, not zerging)?
What classes do you think are just right?
What classes do you think are the most underpowered?

I will start by saying that I consider condi mirage to be extremely overpowered. That is the only real input I have since I don't have too much playtime across that many classes in WvW.
edit: I figure I should give reasons for my opinion rather than just making the claim.

I think condi mirage is OP because of the extremely strong condi output that they have from a lot of different sources (mostly clones) combined with their mirage cloak ability which allows them to evade without having to interrupt their actions; which basically makes them really hard to pin down and kill. The fact that they have access to stealth and teleports as well does not help.
Additionally, I think condi in general is pretty strong just because of the armor combinations you can have (i.e. Dire or Trailblazer), which allows you to have a lot of damage with little to no cost to your defensive stats as well. That being said I have never played a condi mirage (at least not in wvw or pvp).

Comments

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mirages, especially condi, need to be toned down.
    The extremes (tank vs. burst) could do to be cut down a bit at both ends.
    I hear people have a problem with Holosmiths, but I don't have that much of an issue with them. Warriors give me more trouble.

    I'll admit it is difficult to balance a game around roaming when its not supposed to be balanced around roaming. That said, I don't think its AS big of an issue as every other thread on this forum makes it out to be. Individual perception is also skewed by bias.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    It's hard to really rank classes here, because they're good at different things - even between different builds on the same class.

    Eg.

    • Spellbreaker can tank a 1v3 with tons of incoming damage and get kills, but aside from popping invulns, probably won't get away if focused.
    • Thief is good at ganking people who don't expect it and will always get away, but aren't going to go 1v3 very easily.
    • Weaver is a really fun duelist with good sustain, evade, and condi clear, but definitely isn't the strongest in terms of raw power,
    • Revenant: great burst and single-target, no escapes, barely any condi clear
    • Reaper: top tier aoe damage, no escapes

    ... but, I'd have to say the best are:

    • Mirage: good at everything, insane invuln/dodge uptime thanks to runes/sigils, great escapes and stealth access
    • Holosmith: just really good all around thanks to pvp nerfs not applying in WvW. Insane aoe damage + cc, good mobility, low cooldown passive lifesavers, good sustain
    • Deadeye: perma stealth, nuff said. Can just stealth for days, cancel reveal and stealth again and DJ or BS+combo their target.

    I don't think any classes are too powerful, but certain elite specs could do with a smack of the nerf bat for WvW roaming - most of the problem comes from PvE sigils, runes, and skill balance still being applied to WvW rather than the PvP availability + skill balance.

  • Warlord.9074Warlord.9074 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Mirage (Both Power & Condi)
    Thief (all power variants)
    Soulbeast (Longbow+GS with mobility pet(s))

    These are the definitive top 3 classes when it comes to roaming, all of them combine very high damage with very low risk and none of them have a large amount of bad matchups (and you can just avoid them cause mobility).

    As you can note they are all incredibly linear and non-reactive builds which is what the current meta is.

    True everyone else but Lodjur is wrong in my opinion.

  • Razi.6031Razi.6031 Member ✭✭

    Everyone thinks every deadeye is automatically running SA for permastealth. So inaccurate it's funny. Not everyone runs cheese, not everyone like boring waiting games. I run DA with trickery and DE , with an emphasis on revealed training, so my damage actually comes from being revealed.. it's a riskier playstyle but imo more fun.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    Mirage is top in solo roaming. Expect nothing less from the duelist king :smiley:.

    Followed by Spellbreakers, Soulbeast, Deadeye and Guardian.

    Spellbreakers - The changes in sigils revived a vanilla GS build. Difficult to be pinned down with endure pain, resistance to mobility cc and access dashes. Don't see them often, yet :smiley:.

    Soulbeast - Strong burst, extremely versatile and one of the few with access to unblockable. Only a handful can bring out its full potential(un/merging). Mainly popular for their 1 trick pony burst, failure to down their target after usually leads to their demise :lol:.

    Deadeye - A predator without a shadow! Extremely patience and persistent by nature, perma stealthing waiting in camps for the right prey. Listed under endangered, due to having difficulties in securing tanky build as prey and the emergence of Soulbeast :tongue:.

    Guardians/Holo - High burst with blocks and invul. One of the least played in roaming but be cautious around them :smile:.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Mirage (Both Power & Condi)
    Thief (all power variants)
    Soulbeast (Longbow+GS with mobility pet(s))

    These are the definitive top 3 classes when it comes to roaming, all of them combine very high damage with very low risk and none of them have a large amount of bad matchups (and you can just avoid them cause mobility).

    As you can note they are all incredibly linear and non-reactive builds which is what the current meta is.

    Coincidentally, they are also the 3 classes that counters each other the best and often end up clashing just because of that, while the fb/sc/rev combo dominate zerging and always fight each other because thats what they do best. What a shocker that zerging and roaming is having literally same balance.

  • Noha.3749Noha.3749 Member ✭✭✭

    Mirage = got so much for free and can run full zerker without any issue at all. - Can suffer from being 1shot or failing when popping too many CDs.
    Thief = best mobility, best stealth and either good or great burst damage makes them great for 1v1 ganks. - Can suffer from being 1shot/outtraded.
    Soulbeast = Great boongeneration and burst, great at range AND melee, also got good/great mobility. - Can suffer from being 1shot or alot of booncorrupt if outnumbered.
    Holosmith = avrage mobility but great AoE CC and damage and packs some inuvlns and a 6 second duration stealth. - Can suffer from being kited and CCd(only if holo3 can get denied)
    Spellbreaker = great durability, decent =/= great burst, great mobility. - Can suffer from being kited. Predictable/telegraphed rotations/skills.
    Reaper = well..... Amazing unless outranged, outkited, condibombed, no lifeforce, CCd... great 1vX vs plebs.
    CondiScourge = actually.. Condiscourge suffers from the same kitten reaper does but can kill a target with 2 abilities on relatively low CD (signet of spite + blood is power)
    Weaver = supersustain and evasion, mediocre damage. good for 1vX if the enemy cant lock him/her down and kinda sucks.
    Tempest = kill or get killed. decent 1v1 ganker.
    Herald = Amazing burst and engage, bad disengage and Glint heal sucks vs good players.
    Guardian = Great burst but predictable/telegraphed (except for instaport), good defense but that low HP can effect the outcome at times.

    Everyone can do some stuff great but some suffers somewhere else.

    BEST right now is probably:

    Holosmith - Durable and bursty
    Spellbreaker - Durable, Bursty and mobile
    Thief - mobile, bursty and evasive
    Mirage - mobile, bursty and evasive. <- Probably best 1v1, can suffer in 1vX due to clones getting destroyed before shatter.
    Soulbeast - Durable, bursty, good at all ranges and mobile. <- Probably best all-arounder for roaming.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2018

    Imo from the beginning, engi roamers were few, but often good. Still the case for Holo imo. It's often the good player I struggle with, not that Holo is completely OP. My personal Top 5 atm:

    OP
    1. condi mirage: dodge/evade/stunbreak+ports+invis+clones+toughness+vita=ridiculous bunker build. But hey there`s crazy burst, as well: most of the fight keeping up 5-10 torment stacks, and 5-15 confusion stacks, even using a condi cleanse skill can knock you down easily lol. "Just stop moving and using skills" they say. So, how am I supposed to fight, when I only have a 5sec window after using a big condi cleanse before the next condi bomb drops?

    1. power shatter mirage (at least needs some skill)

    2. Soulbeast (15k unblockables in your face spam)

    OP troll build
    4. Deadeye (or perma stealth in general)

    overtuned, but not OP
    5. Holosmith

    what I consider a solid build / class, the way it should be imo, as a reference
    DH (predictable traps), SpB / core Warrior (lack range attacks), Reaper / Scourge (lack mobility), Daredevil (drawbacks depend on the exact build), Weaver (I guess it's too rock-paper-scissor), Chrono (a little too bunker), they all have their weaknesses

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soulbeast permaboonprotection roamer, holosmith, mirage, thief.

  • Riko.9214Riko.9214 Member ✭✭

    S (super tier):
    Engi - massive sustain, high burst, good mobility, stealth
    Ranger - massive burst from range and in melee, good sustain immunity+boons, good mobility, stealth
    Mens - massive burst, invuln+evade+stealth+mobility

    M (medium tier)
    War - massive sustain + tons of damage + mobility (but not a very bursty one making it M tier)
    Guard - through the roof sustain and high damage + average mobility
    Ele - good (but not the best) at everything at once
    Rev - massive burst + bursty mobility, but little access to invulns and situational escapes

    G (gimmick tier)
    Necro - good vs many full-melee chars but destroyed by strong ranged options
    Thief - good for ganking (aka "+1") but has unfavourable 1v1 matchups vs most roaming builds.

  • Blue.1207Blue.1207 Member ✭✭✭

    Power herald.

    If you’re a good player you will dunk on everyone.

  • Cute listings all around. But aside from Razi, the rest give the feeling of insufficient roaming experience to be talking about summit tier roaming build.

    DA Trick mara/dura dual rifle hard counters any of the stuff listed above.

    Condi mirage doesn't have the burst nor the narrow place to be effective. Their mechanic relies too heavily on pumping out clones which you can Mark+SS each in chain reaction = Mug heal+quickness+regen+vigor+swift+might+fury+initiative and stay there to troll them until bored or they altf4. They lose focus and panick and die to Binding shadow+Mark+DJ stealth combo.

    Holosmith sure got the burst but they run out of juice too quickly and their auto elixir S kicks in too quickly which is their doom. Sync DJ with it ending =downed. If they chain it with normal Elixir S to avoid it, just sync the next DJ. If they dodge as that one ends, gg he's kitten out of avoidance, he better have buddies around to rally.

    Wars/Spellb lose by default. DE cds > their iFrame cds. Sync DJ with endure pain logo ending or FC ending. Easy kiting minigame.

    Soulb better tether themselves close to keep or tower at one Stoneform+Swoop distance or they're kitten. Druids have a longer tethering distance granted. Both lose out to a woke DE. MarkS (Mercy) interrupt and binding shadow's their demise.

    Shiro/Herald see spellb.

    Also, I know the position of every ambient creature on each maps my DE variant build's the only one that can Mark them without being put into combat and reap all the benefits (see condi mirage part). This knowledge puts me at the top for mobility and reaction capability.

    Because what you all forgot is that roaming is about map awareness, mobility and reaction. You got to be able to respond to any dolyak icon moving weirdly or running crippled, marked dot(s) or contested objectives on the map and be able to get there quickest as possible. All while being able to withstand gank burst jumps and egress or react, and avoid/ escape zergs. So I'm kind of sorry to say this but you are delusional of you think the other professions can hope to do al that while being top at fight encounters.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭
    1. mesmer, especially mirage needs a massive nerf. The damage it can achieve in combination with the multiple layers of different low cooldown defenses and the broken dodge mechanic that even can be used while stunned is the biggest design mistake they have ever made. Limit their dodge to only be useable while not cced, reduce the stupid ammo mechanic on jaunt, nerf endurance regeneration food and effects across the board (including vigor). distortion and dodging should not be possible while stomping or rezzing. and reduce the clone spam. its not cool, its not fun to play against and its not a good idea.
    2. thief, in a meta where power damage and mobility are the most valueable things thief, in all of its forms needs to be toned down a lot. stealth needs an entire rework, the mobility needs big nerfs as its overpassing every other class by miles as well as the stupidly high damage across all skills, especially on deadeye, since its ranged. furthermore the class needs counterplay, 4 second evade with damage, initiative unaffected by chill, no cooldown on weapon skills while having weapon skills with such high raw damage is too much. on top of that they have many trait and skill options to imob or blind just as they engage, further limiting the counterplay. the class is same as mesmer not fun to play against.
    3. ranger, especially soulbeast. town down the pets as the random cc and free damage is too annoying, as well as remove that stupid smoke field, it creates so much inbalance given how good druids are at healing while being stealth and stealthed in general. change greatsword and sword leaps to require a target in range, so they can not be used as an escape, but as an engage / gapcloser skill only. nerf longbow damage and especially remove the unblockable. long range weapons should not deal that much damage and unblockable, with a projectile weapon, counters its own counter, which is a horrible design. also look at stone signet = complete defenses without gear investment are always a bad idea.
    4. revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon. sword 3 is a badly designed skill - gapcloser, damage, evade, that cant even be evaded properly when you dodge the initial hit, same thing as staff 5. when a skill is a gapcloser and deals damage it should not be a CC. When its a gapcloser and a CC it should not deal damage.
    5. warrior - too many free defenses without the need for stat investment. adrenal health is overpowered as its too potent even without investment in healingpower, immune to damage + immune to crits + frequent access to resistance = too strong defense on berserker builds without the need to invest any stats in defense. fullcounter needs a increased cooldown. weapon skills and utility skills need to be looked at, same thing as with rev, the skills have too many effects. GS 3 is a gapcloser, evade and damage, bulls charge is a gapcloser, CC and damage, just to name a few.

    starting from here you cant really rank the classes any more, they are pretty equal

    guardian - bunker builds need a big nerf, a class should not be able to be so tanky, while being so good as support. the team support should require a sacrifice in the own surviveability. the damage specs and builds are okay, a little one trickish, but its not frustrating, albeit sometimes very challenging to fight against

    engie - can be a little overwhelming sometimes, especially holosmith due to the low cooldown, high damage skills but overall okay. Rezzing and stomping should not be useable + should be interrupted when elixier s is used.

    ele - is fine, either one trick fresh air or sustain builds. generally id say its balanced (it doenst feel balanced but thats not because the ele is too weak, instead because some classes like thief and mesmer are so ridiculous op)

    necro - really only shines against bad players / groups, easily kited and countered and chain cc'd against good enemies. scourge is annoying when you try to meele. reaper damage can be surprisingly strong, but its very predictable. very strong in zerg fights, but thats not the subject

  • Junkpile.7439Junkpile.7439 Member ✭✭✭

    Is core scepter/dagger ele good?

    Low quality trolling since launch
    Seafarer's Rest EotM Hero

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2018

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    mesmer, especially mirage needs a massive nerf. The damage it can achieve in combination with the multiple layers of different low cooldown defenses and the broken dodge mechanic that even can be used while stunned is the biggest design mistake they have ever made. Limit their dodge to only be useable while not cced, reduce the stupid ammo mechanic on jaunt, nerf endurance regeneration food and effects across the board (including vigor). distortion and dodging should not be possible while stomping or rezzing. and reduce the clone spam. its not cool, its not fun to play against and its not a good idea.

    I don't know that well about condi mirages actually - they're Rev's hard counter but also I lose against them largely bc I don't know the build well, I probably won't start complain too much until I know exactly what they do. Other mes builds are alright, even Power Mirage (after the nerf to Confounding Suggestions it's much harder for them to land a good burst against decent people, plus they don't get any buff to sustain to compensate for a missed burst).

    thief, in a meta where power damage and mobility are the most valueable things thief, in all of its forms needs to be toned down a lot. stealth needs an entire rework, the mobility needs big nerfs as its overpassing every other class by miles as well as the stupidly high damage across all skills, especially on deadeye, since its ranged. furthermore the class needs counterplay, 4 second evade with damage, initiative unaffected by chill, no cooldown on weapon skills while having weapon skills with such high raw damage is too much. on top of that they have many trait and skill options to imob or blind just as they engage, further limiting the counterplay. the class is same as mesmer not fun to play against.

    I agree DE is not fun to play against - with the constant stealth, the DJ's (although can be evaded with sound and good reaction), or the stupidly high backstab from stealth (luckily I play on Rev which has Glint heal to deal with that). D/P DD and Core S/D are largely fine though - they have evades, mobility, but the damage is not too over the top, and they're squishy. It takes a decent player to play those builds well.

    ranger, especially soulbeast. town down the pets as the random cc and free damage is too annoying, as well as remove that stupid smoke field, it creates so much inbalance given how good druids are at healing while being stealth and stealthed in general. change greatsword and sword leaps to require a target in range, so they can not be used as an escape, but as an engage / gapcloser skill only. nerf longbow damage and especially remove the unblockable. long range weapons should not deal that much damage and unblockable, with a projectile weapon, counters its own counter, which is a horrible design. also look at stone signet = complete defenses without gear investment are always a bad idea.

    Stone Signet is just for 3s though - 3s of kiting/CC the ranger. I can't really say much though since my Power Rev can deal with LB Soulbeast pretty well (apart from the good ones of course), melee classes might have a harder time dealing with it. Druid's fine - annoying due to their sustain but definitely not OP. I don't see many Boonbeasts in WvW - I see them more in PvP. Don't see many Condi Soulbeasts either - although they're annoying for my Rev but I've never heard about it being broken.

    revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon. sword 3 is a badly designed skill - gapcloser, damage, evade, that cant even be evaded properly when you dodge the initial hit, same thing as staff 5. when a skill is a gapcloser and deals damage it should not be a CC. When its a gapcloser and a CC it should not deal damage.

    I am confused - did you just mention Rev hammer in a thread about roaming??? Hammer is slow, clunkly, telegraphed, easy to read - it's probably the worst power weapon in roaming for rev. I'd rather take sword/shield or sword/axe rather than hammer. As soon as you get close to a rev, most revs that run hammer will switch to something else. Hammer Rev in zerg is a different story.

    You also mentioned staff 5 as gap closer - if it's used as a gap closer it'll be really telegraphed and it's not hard to sidestep/dodge out of its path. Sword 3 is annoying yes - but you can dodge and CC the rev when he comes out the animation (which is generally a good way to fight power rev - CC after sword 5, phase, or sword 3 and the rev will easily lose momentum and often will go into defense). Also I'm confused by what you mean by sword 3 "cant even be evaded properly when you dodge the initial hit" - it's not sword 5, it's not a chain/sequence skill, the hits are separate and don't affect each other.

    It's also funny how you didn't mention the aspects Rev is considered broken at - engaging and OH sword, and instead mentioned things seemingly no one else has a problem with.

    warrior - too many free defenses without the need for stat investment. adrenal health is overpowered as its too potent even without investment in healingpower, immune to damage + immune to crits + frequent access to resistance = too strong defense on berserker builds without the need to invest any stats in defense. fullcounter needs a increased cooldown. weapon skills and utility skills need to be looked at, same thing as with rev, the skills have too many effects. GS 3 is a gapcloser, evade and damage, bulls charge is a gapcloser, CC and damage, just to name a few.

    I'm assuming you're talking about SB - SB has to sacrificing either defense for damage (strength trait line), or vice versa. It's very strong in outnumbered fights thanks to FC (arguably to an OP level - I personally don't think so), but in 1v1 FC is much easier to avoid. On top of that SB's skills are pretty obvious and telegraphed - unless you're on a melee build then you're at a disadvantage compared to builds that can kite (like my Power Rev). The only thing I want to be toned down a bit is Magebane Tether - it does a little too much for a bit too long, and the pull is almost never used until the very end which I think can be designed better.

    guardian - bunker builds need a big nerf, a class should not be able to be so tanky, while being so good as support. the team support should require a sacrifice in the own surviveability. the damage specs and builds are okay, a little one trickish, but its not frustrating, albeit sometimes very challenging to fight against

    Again can't say much about the bunker builds - I play Rev so I have a lot of damage, even in terms of multi-hit skills, thus it's easier for me to damage them through aegis (compared to like thieves), and Rev also has unblockable. Core Hammer Guard, Meditrapper DH & Power FB are fine if not a bit underwhelming, especially DH - it can use a buff. FB I don't think is meant for roaming so no comment on that.

    engie - can be a little overwhelming sometimes, especially holosmith due to the low cooldown, high damage skills but overall okay. Rezzing and stomping should not be useable + should be interrupted when elixier s is used.

    Holo can't be okay when you have SB, Rev, rangers and non-DE thieves up there - Holo is much, much more forgiving with AoE damage and CC, very good sustain due to double Elixir S and blasting water fields (2 fields even). Photon Forge skills are telegraphed but partly compensated by the high quickness uptime. They also have good cleanse, stealth, reveal, a bit of range pressure (if running rifle), plenty of boons (might, vigor, swiftness, quickness, stab, maybe fury), good regen (baseline trait). IMO they have a bit too many tools and are very hard to both avoid their damage and burst them well, unlike LB/GS Soulbeast, Power Rev or Tetherbreaker.

    ele - is fine, either one trick fresh air or sustain builds. generally id say its balanced (it doenst feel balanced but thats not because the ele is too weak, instead because some classes like thief and mesmer are so ridiculous op)

    Ele is underpowered - either you have damage and too little sustain, or a lot of sustain and no damage - which isn't very fun to play as or against. FA builds are much more fun but also very, very squishy, and it doesn't have a lot of tools to avoid damage.

    necro - really only shines against bad players / groups, easily kited and countered and chain cc'd against good enemies. scourge is annoying when you try to meele. reaper damage can be surprisingly strong, but its very predictable. very strong in zerg fights, but thats not the subject

    For all the builds I've seen roaming around, scourge is probably the weakest - both condi and power (Idk if there's even a power scourge build for roaming). They're too slow, too easy to avoid damage, too little personal defense, and generally not a good choice for roaming. Reaper is better against less decent players in that it has huge damage, complimented by perma quickness in shroud. Reaper's easily kited by range builds though, and again its personal defense isn't that good, it's just better compensated compared to scourge by its damage.

    All in all necro is generally a better choice for havoc (especially reaper) and not so much a good choice for solo roaming.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    4. revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon.

    Topic is about roaming,
    Somebody brings up revenant hammer...

    revenant hammer is also present in roaming. small scale 3 - 7 people or so you feel the revenant hammer way too much, you cant counterpressure at ranged properly because it blocks projectiles, whereas their ranged attacks dont count as projectiles. Its not just op in zerg fights, really.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    4. revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon.

    Topic is about roaming,
    Somebody brings up revenant hammer...

    revenant hammer is also present in roaming. small scale 3 - 7 people or so you feel the revenant hammer way too much, you cant counterpressure at ranged properly because it blocks projectiles, whereas their ranged attacks dont count as projectiles. Its not just op in zerg fights, really.

    Random revenants running back to the zerg don't count as roaming...

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @idolin.2831 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon. sword 3 is a badly designed skill - gapcloser, damage, evade, that cant even be evaded properly when you dodge the initial hit, same thing as staff 5. when a skill is a gapcloser and deals damage it should not be a CC. When its a gapcloser and a CC it should not deal damage.

    I am confused - did you just mention Rev hammer in a thread about roaming??? Hammer is slow, clunkly, telegraphed, easy to read - it's probably the worst power weapon in roaming for rev. I'd rather take sword/shield or sword/axe rather than hammer. As soon as you get close to a rev, most revs that run hammer will switch to something else. Hammer Rev in zerg is a different story.

    You also mentioned staff 5 as gap closer - if it's used as a gap closer it'll be really telegraphed and it's not hard to sidestep/dodge out of its path. Sword 3 is annoying yes - but you can dodge and CC the rev when he comes out the animation (which is generally a good way to fight power rev - CC after sword 5, phase, or sword 3 and the rev will easily lose momentum and often will go into defense). Also I'm confused by what you mean by sword 3 "cant even be evaded properly when you dodge the initial hit" - it's not sword 5, it's not a chain/sequence skill, the hits are separate and don't affect each other.

    It's also funny how you didn't mention the aspects Rev is considered broken at - engaging and OH sword, and instead mentioned things seemingly no one else has a problem with.

    Well im judging skills and balance based on its available counters, and in that regard Rev hammer is OP, in zergs, in small scale 3-7 fights, not so much in 1vs1 scenarios, i give you that, but the overall design of the weapon is broken. Just compare its AOE stun - that is spammable - and deals a shitton of damage - to "usual" ranged AOE CC skills - static field, necro fear mark, they all have little to no damage, higher cooldowns, inferior cc duration. this is also true for the other hammer skills in my opinion.

    Skill 3 with sword: I mean usually, when you dodge an skill as its started you ignore all of its effects if its a targeted skill, unless its a channelled skill. With rev sword 3 its different, you cant react and dodge the "initial hit". So lets say rev uses sword 3, you dodge the first hit -> the skill should not activate fully and you should take no harm. Its like evading a backstab or whatever. Then on the other side it IS a channeled skill of sorts, but you cant evade all of its damage after it started with a dodge because the animation is too long and also you cant properly interrupt the "channeled" skill because the rev is evading. This skill goes against any other design principles in the game based on multiple points of view.

    About OH sword, yeah it is very strong, but its just a numbers thing here in my opionion. Its usually a big difference between a skill being OP on a design level - like rev sword 3 (=no logical counterplay, too many stacked effects, does not function like any normal skill - the skill is not fine designed and is OP regardless of number changes) - or just on a numbers level - like rev OH sword (= balanceable by damage modifiers, cooldown, etc. the skill itself is fine in design, its number are off) . Thief has some nasty engage options as well as other classes, but that fact alone doenst make them OP.

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭

    Mirage is S tier with multiple builds, and compared to other classes way overpowered
    i've tried power, condi, hybrid setups, various traits up to the point you just take mirage+dueling you don't even need a third trait
    it's also a 100% safe build to play, as you have mad clones spam, basically a guaranteed 4 sec distortion which is more than enough to get out of combat, if not then there's still multiple sources of stealth and cloak spam

    A tier: soulbeast, spellbreaker, holosmith, thiefs, herald
    All of them have a few overtuned perks like extreme range, damage, sustain or stealthiness.

    Necros and guards miss disengage mobility, this is where they fall off in roaming
    Eles miss damage along with their sustain (or the other way around)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    4. revenant - simply put revenant is broken. a few stupidly overpowered weaponskills with low cooldown and no counterplay that needs to get nerfed. you can clearly see that rev was not meant to have a second weapon set judging by the weapon skills, they added it in the last second and didnt change the skills. hammer needs a massive nerf, its damage is far over the top for a ranged weapon without a counter (the skills are not even projectiles for the most part) and i mean nerf every single skill here, each one is too strong for a 1200 range AOE weapon.

    Topic is about roaming,
    Somebody brings up revenant hammer...

    revenant hammer is also present in roaming. small scale 3 - 7 people or so you feel the revenant hammer way too much, you cant counterpressure at ranged properly because it blocks projectiles, whereas their ranged attacks dont count as projectiles. Its not just op in zerg fights, really.

    Well what kind of roaming are we really talking about here then? Because the "class rankings" would vary wildly depending on the scenario.

    The mirage is the perfect example there. Is it one of the best 1v1 classes for players that are good with it fighting players that cant fight it? Yes, definetly. But if you go 5v5 or higher, or a "small roaming squad"... mirage is tossed out in the cold in favor of the mini zerg meta of boon chronos supporting heavy melee spellbreakers, holos, firebrands and reapers sometimes having a few ranged revs, eles or scourges. As soon as you can hide a zerkers such as revs with their hammers or eles with their meteors in a group then yes I would also say they become very strong, but I draw that line at much higher numbers, more like 10+. Which I dont really call roaming anymore.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    Skill 3 with sword: I mean usually, when you dodge an skill as its started you ignore all of its effects if its a targeted skill, unless its a channelled skill. With rev sword 3 its different, you cant react and dodge the "initial hit". So lets say rev uses sword 3, you dodge the first hit -> the skill should not activate fully and you should take no harm. Its like evading a backstab or whatever. Then on the other side it IS a channeled skill of sorts, but you cant evade all of its damage after it started with a dodge because the animation is too long and also you cant properly interrupt the "channeled" skill because the rev is evading. This skill goes against any other design principles in the game based on multiple points of view.

    About OH sword, yeah it is very strong, but its just a numbers thing here in my opionion. Its usually a big difference between a skill being OP on a design level - like rev sword 3 (=no logical counterplay, too many stacked effects, does not function like any normal skill - the skill is not fine designed and is OP regardless of number changes) - or just on a numbers level - like rev OH sword (= balanceable by damage modifiers, cooldown, etc. the skill itself is fine in design, its number are off) . Thief has some nasty engage options as well as other classes, but that fact alone doenst make them OP.

    Rev's sword 3 absolutely has counterplay, its main one being positioning. It seems you are talking more in terms of small scale, which is where the counterplay will begin to be more apparent. See a Rev Sword 3 you? Move back towards your allies and completely kitten them over as they are now in the danger zone and separated from their allies.
    Sword 3 can easily be a death sentence if used incorrectly. The moment the skill goes through, they are committed to your positioning. Use that to your advantage.

    Even in 1v1s, the evade frame has a flat amount of time, and at the end you know they will be right next to you. Use that to set up CC or burst.

    Also, it is pretty easily interruptible.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Scpurge op roaming...as compared to npc.

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:
    Skill 3 with sword: I mean usually, when you dodge an skill as its started you ignore all of its effects if its a targeted skill, unless its a channelled skill. With rev sword 3 its different, you cant react and dodge the "initial hit". So lets say rev uses sword 3, you dodge the first hit -> the skill should not activate fully and you should take no harm. Its like evading a backstab or whatever. Then on the other side it IS a channeled skill of sorts, but you cant evade all of its damage after it started with a dodge because the animation is too long and also you cant properly interrupt the "channeled" skill because the rev is evading. This skill goes against any other design principles in the game based on multiple points of view.

    About OH sword, yeah it is very strong, but its just a numbers thing here in my opionion. Its usually a big difference between a skill being OP on a design level - like rev sword 3 (=no logical counterplay, too many stacked effects, does not function like any normal skill - the skill is not fine designed and is OP regardless of number changes) - or just on a numbers level - like rev OH sword (= balanceable by damage modifiers, cooldown, etc. the skill itself is fine in design, its number are off) . Thief has some nasty engage options as well as other classes, but that fact alone doenst make them OP.

    Rev's sword 3 absolutely has counterplay, its main one being positioning. It seems you are talking more in terms of small scale, which is where the counterplay will begin to be more apparent. See a Rev Sword 3 you? Move back towards your allies and completely kitten them over as they are now in the danger zone and separated from their allies.
    Sword 3 can easily be a death sentence if used incorrectly. The moment the skill goes through, they are committed to your positioning. Use that to your advantage.

    Even in 1v1s, the evade frame has a flat amount of time, and at the end you know they will be right next to you. Use that to set up CC or burst.

    Also, it is pretty easily interruptible.

    Ever since I picked up Revenant about a month ago, I've learned to hate this skill. It is honestly a lot harder to use than I initially thought because far too often people move out of range before it fully activates or you simply get interrupted by a seemingly random (as in not intentionally interrupting it) CC.

    It's a very strong skill due to how much damage it can do, it's low cooldown and the fact that it follows your target and evades while doing so. But if someone isn't familiar with using it, I promise it isn't as good as it seems either. I'm always a little hesitant to push it tbh.

    Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer, Revenant | Kaineng | Diamond Legend

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