What I LOVED; What I HATED in Season 4. [story thingies] — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What I LOVED; What I HATED in Season 4. [story thingies]

Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

What I LOVED

  • First of all the variety of music in every major situation during the story - for example Blish's Sacrifice composed just for the final chapter of A Star to Guide Us, every single cinematic had a unique music to enhance the mood of situation.
  • I loved Taimi's development actually, no matter if something bad, good or villainy (wink wink) will come out of it. I really felt chills and urgency when Taimi was kidnapped by Joko in Daybreak, it was really heart-wretching to hear such pain in her voice, begging for help... The writers proved they don't need death of a character to cause some powerful emotions.
  • I don't think Blish and Gorrik introduction was the best, but Zafirah's introduction to the story was in my opinion THE BEST character introduction EVER. Various different reasons for that, but most importantly - her connection to Balthazar was just so unique, so intimate, and actually she showed what I wanted in Path of Fire from Balthazar - also good side of him, he wasn't bad and she helped us understand that sometimes under the highest pressure and pain you can change totally. Hats off for Zafirah.
  • Caithe's communion with Aurene was the best moment I could have ever wished for. So intimate too. "Speak through me" it just sounds so powerful to me. Seeing Caithe coming out of the shadows... Really powerful moment.
  • Eir' and Snaff' return - oh my... that was just so amazing!!! I've always wanted to meet Snaff! That was so surprising to see him.
  • Aurene's Ascension was just the masterpiece, the whole building up for Aurene to ascend into Dragonhood in Descent was just really well written, the dialogues of Kralkatorrik and Aurene were just so pure, full of understanding... "I want to share it with you. All of you." Those lines... chills. No other words could describe more perfectly the whole history of her life.

What I hated

  • Joko's speech and Aurene eating him out of nowhere - the worst thing to ever happen, the problem with it is that it had a lot of sense story-wise with Aurene's resurrection using Joko's magic, but the way it was all presented was just... bizzare. Joko's speech didn't have any sense. The whole Joko's arc was so bad... Cringe all over. And in All or Nothing trying to make Joko's death meaningful by Ogden's saying about some signs so the prophecy could be fulfilled... Cringey...
  • Aurene's death was the biggest D&D ever... The way it was showed was just so wrong. Playing with the people's emotions so hard, and then Tom Abernathy in War Eternal's Celebration Live Stream saying that he had no idea it would cause such shock... I mean the whole building up to Aurene's body was just to cause shock!!! Going 10 mins hearing Taimi's screams. Then they even made a presentation talking about how to make a character's death something meaningful, and then just revive it later in an episode within few screen-time minutes... Bad, really bad writing with this Joko-Aurene related stuff. Really bad.

What they were most proud of in my opinion are the biggest lay-downs of the Season, Joko's speech could actually be meaningful if he wasn't eaten in the end of it, Aurene also should not have died, and I believe near-death experience would actually be the better idea, so she would be in coma and in a really bad condition, but something would stir her out of it. And Requiem stories would also be quite meaningful so the characters would be talking what would that be if Aurene died... And talking about hope and family and finding purpose would actually be equally meaningful.

But hey, if you want to cause some cheap thrills, then you have a great example to how you can do it.

Season 4 was to me 7/10.

GW's story was never about cheap thrills, since Season 3 till the first moment of War Eternal the writers tried to do something like that, which in my opinion should never be repeated again - GW2's story should be sentimental, more characters' development, less action. GW2 has so much to give philosophically and can give so much valuable observations on the modern world it's unique among any other game. And hopefully the later parts of War Eternal and Aurene's beautiful ascension and cherishing empathy were the signs of Anet's story to truely come back to its roots.

Take your time, writers. Be perfectionists.

<3

The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

<1

Comments

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Eir and Snaff returning, especially Snaff was actually one of my most hated moments in the season ironically enough. It contributed to the overall narrative that death is cheap, the mist army should of been heard, but never seen, it's heroes consigned to legends on the other side. Snaff was one of the greatest Asuran inventors to ever exist, it only builds on his legend to have him only interactable via his logs and research notes, nothing you could ever do would live up to him as his death was the turning point for DE, and especially this felt like a limp addition. Of the mist armies appearing Gwen is the only one who I really enjoyed, and even that opinion was mixed.

    In the future i'd like it if we don't touch on the Mists for awhile, I have Underworld fatigue.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Low points for me would probably be the lead up in episode 3, Aurene killing Joko was satisfying but the rest of the episode mostly felt rushed and the map was kind of disappointing. The scarab plague thing was kind of meh as a plot too. Aurene's resurrection could have been handled better too but otherwise overall this was the best living world season so far to me.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    I also disagree a lot with OP's list of pros and cons, mine more lines up with @Illconceived Was Na.9781

    Gorrik and Blish and their intros were strong key points for me. I absolutely LOVED everything about Joko's speech. Zafirah's intro was great but now she's kind of bleh.

    My low points are Caithe/Aurene connection and Kourna's open world (minus the nice Joko easter egg).

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I knew that Anet had written themselves into a corner on Aurines death because there is no way she could be perma dead on account of plot armour.
    We'd already established she was essential in taking on Kralkatorrik.
    Without taking on Kralkatorrik, the world ends!
    Kill him without Aurine, the world ends!

    Kinda obvious she'd come back although I wasn't expecting it in the very next episode >.<
    I hated how they did it though.. LOLJokomagic is a terrible cop out excuse because as far back as Gw1 there is absolutely no explination on how Joko became a Lich.. and as i've mentioned many times in these forums Lich's are a convuluted mess in Guildwars lore with nothing specifically defining them and their power.

    Dragons eat magic.. ok, Liches are Magic.. ok, What is a Lich and how does it work... ????
    It's not so great having a major plot point focused on such a non fleshed out concept.
    I really hope Anet gives us some major backstory on Joko and Liches in general before moving too far on because atm Aurines revival is far too much like a Screw you Kralkatorrik I win button rather than well thought out lore lol

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2019

    Zafirah's introduction is a great example of gamified story telling. Her profession, the setting and combat mechanics came together in a compelling way. The combat was challenging enough to make us want to beat her but paced to allow us to discover who she was and why we should spare her. I loved it, was aware of myself as a narrator.

    Imo, Asuran technology as a source of exposition needed a krewe and not just Taimi. Science isn't just isolated genius, it is many geniuses working together. When it was just Taimi, she ended up looking like a punk and since the Commander's personality is shaped around NPCs, during season 3 we looked like idiots following her directions as she built her pet project in her secret lab. I hope they keep providing magitech through a krewe, it is just more believable. By introducing Gorrik and Blish, they revitalized Taimi. I liked the encounter where she was trapped in her golem. I hated the combat but the narrative had me talking to Taimi, telling her I was trying.

    I liked Joko's arc. He would try to kill millions with a plague and the Commander did need to confront him. His speech was a little too mmo self-conscious, yes we know the PC is a bit crazy. I think Aurene was the only believable way to kill him. Anything else would be pulled from thin air.

    Caithe's communion was so artificial. Worse, it was used to reinforce the idea that Aurene was dead even though Caithe had only about an hour to understand the bond. It was one of the cheap, as in little effort put into it by the studio, tricks used to make an unbelievable scenario believable. The way people responded to Aurene's death and resurrection is objectively bad writing.
    It depended on everyone being convinced by a mechanic that had only existed for about an hour.
    It required everyone who loved Aurene to be willing to leave her corpse in a defiled state for days.
    It ignored all the Asuran magitech related to tracking dragon energy.
    Supposedly not one of the thousands of Tyrians going through the grieving process went through the bargaining stage where they would have to be willing to suggest that eating Joko was important.
    It depended on the players believing that the studio was going to let the game end or throw away 2 seasons of work!

    With Aurene's death, the studio tried to play a game of chicken with players that they could not win. The fact that they were bent double, blowing smoke up their kitten didn't help their chances. Imo, and it may be just wishful thinking, her death will lead to something. I just wish they had played it straight and been less willing to infantilize Tyrians and players.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • for me, Kourna as map and stuff to do there was the low point - and Joko's speech and death pretty much one of the two high points.

    I liked how Blish and Gorrik had been handled, I am lukewarm on Zafirah.

  • VDAC.2137VDAC.2137 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    LWS4 has been the best so far, although I feel there was too much going on for how much time could be allotted to each character and problem. IMO, it might have felt better with around twice as many episodes, two per map. A lot of new characters and groups were introduced that I would have enjoyed getting to know better. I liked Blish and Gorrik, but feel that we skipped over learning why they joined the Inquest and what happened to Blish. The attachment of the commander to Blish felt forced to me considering how briefly we’d known him and reactions to previous characters lost (such as my beloved Trahearne). Zafirah felt a bit out of nowhere to me — what group was she a part of and why was she berating me for killing her rampaging murderous god who was the proximal cause of all that was going wrong in the world? (I could be mistaken on that, going by what I’ve read of GW1 lore and what other players have said, etc.) Joko’s speech felt very fitting and I enjoyed that whole episode. Having Zafirah berate me right after? No, many people might have place to but some follower of Balthazar would be the last in that line. I was okay with her character after that although still don’t really understand where she came from nor how she came around.

    I enjoyed the story missions and maps, especially stealthing on Kourna and wish there was a class that had an option to play like that normally in open world, etc.! =) I liked the maps, especially Jahai with its pieces from elsewhere and seeing what looked like space marines coming from and then retreating back into a portal was awesome!

    Also loved the music and the two mounts introduced in LWS4! <3

    I love Aurene, but agree with what others have said that her connection with Caithe and her death. I don’t understand what Caithe’s role was supposed to be, especially since Aurene so quickly after that was able to speak for herself. For so many reasons, I think it would have been better to not have Aurene die at all and leave everyone beaten down and Kralk escaping as defeat enough. It felt less bad to be than to those keeping up with the episodes I think because I got to play episode 6 immediately after 5 and so, in my mind, Aurene wasn’t in that state for long.

    After all this, I am confused by everyone saying we need to go after the other elder dragons! Wasn’t it established in LWS3 that that would end the world and Kralk we took a chance on because he was going to end the world if he lived and Aurene made it possible to defeat him without further destabilization? Maybe we can excise incompatible magics from Jormag and Primordius while they slumber...

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 15, 2019

    Will follow Randulf well it only deserve the average.

    LWS4E1 AND E2
    The first two episodes Daybreak and A bug in the system were both amazing: Lab alpha-5 was in the continuity of the Farahnur's exploration. The saboted Scuffy was at my eyes a real fight same for exterminator IG-04. Both episodes got over the top exploration phases, one in the basement of the great hall with an awesome exclusive outfit and the other through the endless oppressing inquest complex. Sayida the sly is a good character, the fma duo too (gorrik and blish), the progression through farahnur and rata primus were both interesting, many details and some lore. Both maps were great deserving a rate above average: 14/20 and 17/20

    HERE CAME THE DECADENCE: LWS4E3
    Episode 3, domain of kourna, nothing, just nothing, it's more than rushed, can't find a good point apart those awakened inquest wearing mark II weapons, and the cannons meta, the pestilent golem and plague experiments COULD HAVE BEEN a good idea. Even that meta is UNFINISHED. I mean, take in account the case if we FAIL. If we fail, the CANNONS DESTROY NOTHING, if the vine wall is destroyed NOTHING HAPPENS. Also even the repurposed cannons don't shoot anything...
    TWO OF THE THREE GANDARA LANES AREN'T USED, seriously, that map could have been one of the BEST FROM THE GAME if the meta was made LIKE SILVERWASTES.
    A HUGE WASTE OF RESSOURCES AND POTENTIAL. And I don't ask it a lot but I RECOMMEND TO TAKE A LOOK ON THAT MAP AGAIN RECREATING THE META EVENT. And also making the fortress available or part of it. This map is the SHAME of living world season 4. Even mechanics during the story infiltration step are bad, plus serious holes of lore: Primeval dynasty and olmakhans joining us whereas they don't have any issues where they are? pff Will pass joko 's death, that's true Quaggan kitten
    2/20

    The "REBORN" LWS4E4
    Episode 4, jahai bluff, the map is cool, closer to maguuma wastes maps like dry top but with less sand. The branded destroyer and DERV escort event is cool.
    The great addition is those rift space-time bubbles they are very intriguing and imposing, making spawn pine trees but also ascalonian ruins! The static rifts are cool too with the maguuma jumgle, orr ruins and the very epic ??? with scarlet briar. The three quests are fun, crystal throwing, garden and squad making simulators. Story was cool, with blish following you around, too sad that he is dead due to bad story writing. Story is okay, but zafirah step just kill it, awful instance -2pts Also well, an empty useless sun refuge and expensive armors a very bad move to involve sigils. Commandos maybe deserve a bigger place instead than a joke dunno like an inter-dimensional police protecting from the real dangers from the mists.
    10/20

    The ultimate battle LWS4E5
    The fight against kralky was very cool, facing almost any type of branded creature, cool use of the ultrasound crystals, dragonspears and flying over him. The map is also cool with the metas involving rifts. Dwarven ruins are also cool remembering zelda puzzles and enjoyed the chest-revealing mechanic. Not fan of poi locked behind story/event, -1pt Finally suffering, despair, what happened to free awakened, losing hopes and faith, mwuhahhahah and killed aurene awesome?! I like when baddies are winning.
    12/20

    The very very cheap and awful ending for a dragon: LWS4E6
    In the contrary of episode 3, the map is cool, but again it feels unfinished: Holo-bridges are nice but WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE ESCORT EVENTS THEY DO NOTHING, so I got it, we escort DERV, Sand effigy and Awakened abobination but WHAT IS THE POINT?!! AT LEAST MAKE THEM USEFUL IN THE META LIKE BREAKING A SHIELD OR AN ASSAULT! The map is beautiful nothing to argue, BUT WHAT IS THE POINT OF PUTTING KRALKY DOING NOTHING AT THE MIDDLE? Here it's a very bad execution of the map: imagine if kralky crashed but with its head outside of the ground or contained with lasers or force fields? Here I don't see why we fight on the island, to dissipate a purple cloud and tickling kralky's back? BUT THE WORST IS THE WHOLE NON SENSE ENDING: ok so we enter in him like this, by doing nothing, hop!?? WOW amazing it's empty inside! To finally know ohhh they have feelings ohhh poor kralky... ohhhh can't handle magics PFFFFF TELL THAT TO SUBJECT ALPHA AND BETA DO THEY LOOK LIKE THEY ARE SUFFERING?!! Wanted to put more but just got flashbacks of the very bad story and the annoying shadow army plus those skeletons dismounting you.
    8/20

    HERE IS HOW IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED: AURENE DIDN'T ATE JOKO, KRALY ATE AURENE AND KILLED HER, JOKO CALM THE DRAGON WITH ITS MYSTIC MAGICS, KRALKY RETURN TO SLEEP. JOKO UNLEASH THE PLAGUE: SEASON 5 "Tyria last hope: The incompetent commander and the pact now have to save every race and have to eradicate the plague."

    But HEY that's my version, I'm now impatient to see what cliche scenario will happens in living world season 5, but for me living world season 4 ended at the end of the second episode, after it's no-sense like the whole story was erased and remade rapidly.

    10.5/20 for the whole lws4 for me, hopefully they are some good rates to attract the total upper.

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' , Housing , New asuran expansion , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    +++NEW: AEP Asuran Expansion Project available on WIKI.
    +++New: GEM GW2 Exploration Map: Discover unusual places around tyria: Here (OSM map)

  • @Ultramex.1506 said:
    Now that Aurene can talk....what was the point for Crystal Caithe again?

    Probably setting her up for another shock value "cheap death".

  • Lauren.3061Lauren.3061 Member ✭✭
    • I like Zafirah, but I truly hated how she was introduced. I'm not sure if this was ever explained, perhaps in side-text or dialogue that I missed, but playing through that story part where she's cornered in the garrison with Balthazar's sword was horrible, because all I could see as I was crossing the field were dead, non-revivable Pact soldiers lying around in her poison field. Meanwhile, she's saying this dialogue that feels like it was pushing me to feel sorry for her. You've murdered and seriously injured many Pact members. And I'm supposed to pity you? Ugh, I hated that instance. I wish they'd NOT had the dead and injured soldiers in there. It really soured me to her character at first.
    • I think my favorite aspect of LWS4 was that it connected so well to the expansion that preceded it - it had lots of characters cycling in and out, but it felt like such a nice continuation of the PoF story, resolving some issues, bringing up others, and just diving into the situation in Elona in a nice way. Many of those story choices were less than awesome, but I liked that approach. Contrast to LWS3, which I didn't care for because it moved away from HoT and skipped around a ton, leaving lots of HoT-related story questions completely unanswered. There was so much more to learn about in Maguuma, and it's just never been finished up.
    • Joko's speeches and dialogue were pretty over-the-top, but I loved the voice acting so much that I found myself just shrugging that off. It was fun and I enjoyed the scenes involving him.
    • I agree completely with Illconceived was Na that Caithe's "transformation" in S4 just didn't work for me. I still don't find her trustworthy and struggle with accepting her character being back in the fold the way she is now. She should have had to answer for the consequences of her actions.
    • Also agree with Psientist that Taimi works much better as a character with the addition of Gorrik and a krewe. I really like Taimi, but the types of solutions that Tyria needs truly do need collaboration and many minds coming together. It always felt cheesy when it was just Taimi alone always having the perfect answer to every question.
  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    I also disagree a lot with OP's list of pros and cons, mine more lines up with @Illconceived Was Na.9781

    Gorrik and Blish and their intros were strong key points for me. I absolutely LOVED everything about Joko's speech. Zafirah's intro was great but now she's kind of bleh.

    My low points are Caithe/Aurene connection and Kourna's open world (minus the nice Joko easter egg).

    I liked Blish and Gorrik's introduction, don't get me wrong. I also quite like Joko's speech until you know... D&D happened as we now call a bad written plot. I was really just so INTO what Joko was saying and made my mind twist, and then it was just so ruined by this Aurene trashy moment. I mean... Anet has means to make their story so immersive, but then it's just quickly ruined, as later Aurene's ressurection showed.

    I believe there is still a lot coming up for Aurene and Caithe's connection in Season 5. I still believe the Pale Tree can have a role in building the balance. Could she be "Mother"? Who knows.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 17, 2019

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Psientist.6437 said:

    It required everyone who loved Aurene to be willing to leave her corpse in a defiled state for days.

    This is the thing I hated the most. How the hell could they leave her like that when they loved her so much?

    maybe because they were petrified by fear? have you ever felt depressed? No? Then it makes you want to do NOTHING.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    I was really just so INTO what Joko was saying and made my mind twist, and then it was just so ruined by this Aurene trashy moment.

    Like I said above: for me, it was the opposite. I absolutely loved that Joko had this speech he was (ahem) dying to give to the commander at the moment of his (Joko's) supremacy, and his victory was snatched by the jaws of Aurene.

    Anet has means to make their story so immerse, but then it's just quickly ruined, as later Aurene's ressurection showed.

    With this I agree. The most impactful moment of the game, maybe including GW1. The devs spoke earnestly and thoughtfully about how important it was. About how they wanted to make sure we fully absorbed the impact on the characters.

    And then, badda boom badda deus ex machina, it turns out "never mind; I'm still alive."


    On the whole, I think it's a good thing that people have these differing reactions. Good story telling does involve us getting emotional about what happens, and it would be odd for everyone to react the same. On the other hand, I also feel there's some happier medium that they might strike.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    I was really just so INTO what Joko was saying and made my mind twist, and then it was just so ruined by this Aurene trashy moment.

    Like I said above: for me, it was the opposite. I absolutely loved that Joko had this speech he was (ahem) dying to give to the commander at the moment of his (Joko's) supremacy, and his victory was snatched by the jaws of Aurene.

    Anet has means to make their story so immerse, but then it's just quickly ruined, as later Aurene's ressurection showed.

    With this I agree. The most impactful moment of the game, maybe including GW1. The devs spoke earnestly and thoughtfully about how important it was. About how they wanted to make sure we fully absorbed the impact on the characters.

    And then, badda boom badda deus ex machina, it turns out "never mind; I'm still alive."


    On the whole, I think it's a good thing that people have these differing reactions. Good story telling does involve us getting emotional about what happens, and it would be odd for everyone to react the same. On the other hand, I also feel there's some happier medium that they might strike.

    couldn't agree more

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Cerioth.7062 said:
    I also disagree a lot with OP's list of pros and cons, mine more lines up with @Illconceived Was Na.9781

    Gorrik and Blish and their intros were strong key points for me. I absolutely LOVED everything about Joko's speech. Zafirah's intro was great but now she's kind of bleh.

    My low points are Caithe/Aurene connection and Kourna's open world (minus the nice Joko easter egg).

    I liked Blish and Gorrik's introduction, don't get me wrong. I also quite like Joko's speech until you know... D&D happened as we now call a bad written plot. I was really just so INTO what Joko was saying and made my mind twist, and then it was just so ruined by this Aurene trashy moment. I mean... Anet has means to make their story so immersive, but then it's just quickly ruined, as later Aurene's ressurection showed.

    I believe there is still a lot coming up for Aurene and Caithe's connection in Season 5. I still believe the Pale Tree can have a role in building the balance. Could she be "Mother"? Who knows.

    We can discount her being mother on muliple levels. Firstly on her being a spawn or whatever label you wish to use, of Mordremoth. Secondly, her age is about 2 centuries, whereas Kralk is tens of thousands, or older. Either he refers to an older Dragon (boring), Tyria (cliche) or something more existential.

    As for the Pale Tree, Im pretty certain her involvement from this point is via cameos. Shes a starter city and for Anet to utilise her, she will prob need to become changed somehow, which will cause a conflict of in game states.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2019

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    As for the Pale Tree, Im pretty certain her involvement from this point is via cameos. Shes a starter city and for Anet to utilise her, she will prob need to become changed somehow, which will cause a conflict of in game states.

    I think the Pale Tree will be significantly involved when we start searching for a replacement for Mordremoth and/or continue Malyck's storyline. She's already had changes of state in response to events in the story (being unconscious after LWS2) due to being in her own instance.

    Storywise, I found the initial Joko storyline to be very underwhelming, as it would have been very interesting/cool if Joko had actually released the scarab plague (not the retconned human only version, which just seemed weak and not even worth pursuing) into Tyria and/or Elona. Really liked his speech at his end though and how it cast the PC's actions into a grey area.

    The Kralk battle story leading up to his end was well done and exciting (especially the large battle at Thunderhead), but the whole "Kralk has a personality" just did not fit into the story well as it has been told thus far and felt very shoehorned in at the end as a last minute concept.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    First of all, I'm aware that due to tight budget and schedule, resource allocation etc. many potentially planned things would've been cut from Season 4, and in some cases the workarounds turned out more immersive or memorable than the original implementation (compare e.g. the original plan to depict the post-Thunderhead Keep battle walk to Aurene as a cinematic to the final version of actually letting us experience a "cinematic type of in-game walk" to her instead). So I'm sympathetic towards the devs working with what they got and delivering an enjoyable narrative, and they deserve our kudos for their hard work. With that said, here's what I liked and disliked about Season 4 narrative, including the raids and fractals:

    What I liked

    • The variety of leitmotivic music composed by Maclaine Diemer, Lena Chappelle, Brendon Williams etc. Although I feel having so many distinct tracks for Blish alone seemed rather excessive given his relatively limited screentime (especially compared to many of the iconics like Rytlock or biconics like Canach who still don't have their own themes), there's no doubt that part of the reason he formed a somewhat emotional bond with the player was because of his leitmotivic development via the many music tracks dedicated to him. Maclaine teased about wanting to write more complex choral music back when there was discussion going about Balthazar's leitmotif being used in the PoF trailers, and he delivered with the stunning "Aurene, Dragon Full of Light" which is a fine addition to the canon of GW2 songs. Kralkatorrik and Joko's leitmotifs got nice development throughout the season, joining the side of the wonderful villain themes of Mordremoth and Balthazar from the past. My favorite track from the season may be the uplifting yet bittersweet Ep6 finale "The Ascension" which summarizes the overarching story of Glint's Legacy since Season 1 by parading so many leitmotifs relating to Glint, Aurene, the legacy plan and the fate of dragons before ending on a memorable use of the GW2 main Tyrian theme itself. Great work, overall, and makes me curious to learn what musical marvels Maclaine and the other composers deliver to us in Season 5 and beyond.

    • Aurene's story arc as a whole, starting from her appearing as a somewhat unpredictable and increasingly independent adolescent and bonding with us again, her frustrations of trying to communicate with us while being protective of us, being afraid of her own death which was inevitable in the prophecy, returning as a more assertive female after her resurrection, her growing hatred of Kralkatorrik and eventually coming to sympathize with (and sort of forgive) her grandfather with some mourning added in. I also liked her vicious handling of Joko, showing that even this gentle and wise creature is ultimately a dragon thirsting for magic, and her bond with the Commander and Caithe is crucial to keep her straight; she may be able to resist Torment, but Temptation is the far more dangerous adversary out of the two once Aurene starts to enjoy consuming magic, and that should hopefully be a potential future story direction for the devs to take her in.

    • The inclusion of Blish and Gorrik. Original S4 drafts only included Taimi as the sole expert, but thankfully this was changed in rewrites to take some of the burden off of her and introduce these intriguing characters to the cast. Their relationship with each other and Taimi was adorable, and their Inquest ties hopefully won't be forgotten about as I doubt Inquest will be happy about two prominent researchers defecting from their ranks.

    • The return of the Elonian factions and the politics. One of the great things in PoF was all the worldbuilding of Elona, its human-undead duumvirate of rulership, and how its various factions worked. We thankfully saw most of these factions returning (sadly no Hamaseen and Zalambur, though) in S4 which allowed Deputy Qais to have a tragic ending to his story, and gave us the lovely Ep4 politics in Jahai where we actually saw our former Awakened, Mordant Crescent, and Joko Loyalist enemies in a new sympathetic light while even befriending former enemies like Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo. I felt sorry for having to kill Beastmarshal Oluwa Eranko, and Joko's mockery of her afterwards was a great motivator to press on to end his reign over the tragic Awakened villains once and for all.

    • Joko. Although initially he seemed more serious than his GW1 counterpart, he quickly found his groove and turned into an over the top evil overlord we all hate and love. Nolan North's performance here may be his best in GW2 with the way he relished each line and added an upper class spin on it to hint at Joko's roots as a nobleman. For the scenes we got to see him in, he left a lasting impression as a maniacal mastermind who's one of a kind (sorry, Scarlet, you tried and had your lovely moments but there is only one Joko).

    • Fascinating raid characters. Given their limited screentime, Desmina, Zommoros, Qadim and the Key of Ahdashim were all written in an interesting way, and some of their back and forth with Glenna in particular was a joy to behold (one of the highlights being Novera King's handling of the banter between the ever-curious Glenna and the ever-secretive Key who'd make a perfect couple in a comedy show in an endearing manner due to their contrasting personalities). Dhuum, for what little screentime he had, also had a memorable presence and some nuance to his writing although I wish there'd been more of him, maybe even bringing him in as a future living world villain given his potential. Desmina's plot left me uneasy in a good way, and I hope the narrative returns to her shady character in the future given her ruthless and scheming attitude to keep things in order no matter the cost with hints of her anger and despair over Grenth abandoning her.

    • Fascinating raid and fractal mysteries, and some answers to long-standing questions. Our exploration of the Mystic Forge and witnessing all its secrets, learning more about djinn society and their past in Ahdashim, participating alongside Joko on a raid to Twilight Oasis, exploring the state of the Underworld since Grenth's departure, figuring out how Weyandt became the infamous pirate captain, and exploring the horrors of a dwarven vault of Deepstone with a powerful, potentially demonic entity trapped within and whose fate was left uncertain, were all intriguing to discover and helped flesh out the world of Tyria.

    • Return of Logan, Almorra, Caithe, Ogden and Rhoban. It was nice to see these folks again after all this time and see how they developed in story instances and open world, and the return of (mostly) more adult banter between Rytlock and Logan. It'll be interesting to see how Logan defying the Pact rule of new marshal not going to fight on the frontlines (as stipulated in S3Ep1's instance "Research in Rata Novus") will end up biting his rear in the future, and if we learn the identity of his current second-in-command in the Pact as our replacement as a Commander.

    • Introduction of new Elonian heroes. Sayida, Zaeim, Zafirah, Kossan and Boticca each had interesting backstories and nice development throughout the season, earning their place in the cast of characters. I was happy that we got to explore the nicer side of Balthazar via Zafirah's crisis of faith, and witnessing Zaeim becoming our Commander's equivalent on Elona's side. It was also nice to see interaction between Kossan and Koss, and have Koss have some resolution with Tahlkora even if it was off screen.

    • Introduction of the Olmakhan. The way this tribe contrasts with the Ascalonian charr is very fascinating to witness with some nice lore and abilities surrounding their society. Seeing them play into Rox's plot was likewise fun to witness, and I loved the interaction between Rox and Boticca who became sisters-in-blood on the battlefield. Although I'm happy for Rox's decision to join the Olmakhan, I hope the narrative team won't forget the still unresolved subplot from Season 2 where Rox as a free agent was spying on someone in Camp Resolve under orders from someone from the Iron imperator's office, and her shady deals and past with the enigmatic Monti Scythescrape. Perhaps Monti will return to Rox's life and yank her away from the Olmakhan as part of a setup for a future storyline involving Blood Imperator Bangar Ruinbringer's ambitions...

    • Continuation of Caithe's story. Her becoming essentially a Branded herald of Aurene and bearing the burden of guiding the Order of the Crystal Bloom when she'd prefer to stay in the shadows was an interesting twist with potential future repercussions, so it'll be fun to see where her story goes from here and if she becomes a leader who will atone for her past actions and try to reach out to the Nightmare Court and Mordrem Guard to redeem them thanks to her new insight.

    • Cameos of Eir and Snaff. Seeing these favorites appear as ghosts, with Snaff's first in-game apperance, was a nice moment for how little screentime they had. Their appearance not only was a cute callback to personal story and Edge of Destiny, but also helped push Braham's story onward.

    • Braham's "redemption". After S3 I was worried where Braham's sudden change of attitude would take him, but S4 helped bring him back on track with most of his issues resolved while facing a new future due to Rox choosing to forge her own path without him.

    • Upgradeable Sun's Refuge. This was one of the big updates with great potential for the continuation of the game and the narrative as we slowly uncovered more areas of the cave and added more NPCs and quests there. If the devs can build such an expanding and evolving instance in a map not tied to any specific episode but perhaps tied to an overarching season (e.g. a new base of operations accessible to anyone who owns any S5 episode with different stuff unlocked per episode to make people want to buy all episodes to get all the possible unlocks), it'd help with keeping the living world maps relevant and building their respective narratives like we did with e.g. the touching Elegy and Requiem armor collections involving Vemyen and Ziya.

    • Using past masteries in maps. It was wonderful to see HoT and S3 masteries such as the Itzel poison (for toxic caves), oakheart's reach (throughout Dragonfall), shrines and geysers return in S4, or us being able to understand heket if we had earned the language mastery from HoT. Hopefully we'll see more of these past masteries being used in future maps as they have great potential for deepening the world and giving folks more reason to master past content.

    • Integrating roller beetle and skyscale into the story. These two mounts added fun new ways to explore Tyria and Elona, and they were relevant to the narrative with some nice lore added in via the story instances and via some of the collections.

    • Rifts and phasing. One of the most impressive things to me in PoF and S4 have been the seamless transition of NPCs and environments via phasing like Amnoon upgrading with alternate NPCs, props and dialogue according to your decision in PoF, Qais being replaced by a memorial after his death in S4Ep1, Blish following you around in Ep4 while appearing as a prairie dog to other players to not spoil the story, or Kralk's rifts literally phasing other Tyrian environments into the affected areas of the maps like making Shiverpeaks snowstorms appear during rift events in Jahai. This kind of phasing helps makes Tyria appear as a living and constantly evolving world, and has great potential for future storylines. Now if only they can have some of these phased NPCs like Blish from Ep4 actually fight and draw aggro from you, we could perhaps see future implementation of our charr's surviving warbandmate variants (Reeva ftw!) appear in the open world alongside us even if just for a while. :)

    • Callbacks to personal story. We got nice Awakened invasion events where old, and somewhat obscure to some players, heroes from personal story returned to lend a hand. Seeing folks like Skarti, Sigfast, Mangonel, Ballista and even folks like Livia (under the guise of Kerida) was nice, particularly as at least some (if not all?) of them had alternate dialogue depending on race and/or story progress with them (such as Kerida's dialogue changing if you'd interacted with her in Season 3), which was later further updated with new dialogue referencing the sabotaging of the gate network in Ep2 as it changed the threat level of the invasions. Not only that, but we got some nice callbacks in Thunderhead Keep with the return of Thora Griffonbane and Mia Kindleshot, two very obscure but fascinating characters from first norn personal story instance and Caudecus's Manor dungeon, respectively (in the case of Mia we even got lots of dialogue variants based on which legion your charr player represents, or if you talk to her as a non-charr!). Whichever dev(s) was responsible for all these lovely callbacks deserves a pat on the shoulder for all the hard work that went into writing these dialogues and remembering the player's past experiences. We even got some nice callbacks and further speculations via the three weapon collections based on fan contributions, as we learned how Renegades were still a threat in Ascalon and the Ebonhawke Treaty had been signed, or how the Colossus of the Cliffside Fractal had been walking in the Shiverpeaks in the distant past. Ep3 even revealed the identity of the mysterious "Your Herald" from the dungeon storyline, a long-standing mystery among players, in a very surprising way.

    • Addition of intriguing ambient scenes and lore to Festival of the Four Winds and Dragon Bash. We've seen both of these festivals tie up some loose ends (e.g. the Solitary Sylvari in Labyrinthine Cliffs who discusses what it felt like to return from being a Mordrem Guard to a regular sylvari with Mordremoth still haunting him) and even hint at potential future stories (like a "friendly" Icebrood preaching how we should convert to join Jormag's side, or a female norn arguing with a Son of Svanir how she hears Jormag's voice too and will one day prove herself superior to the male Sons as Jormag's champion). A lot of loving attention to detail went into these releases, and I'm glad these story snippets continue to push the Tyrian narrative forward in subtle ways. Even Halloween continued expanding the lore by telling us more about Joko's past and how his rivalry began with Mad King Thorn (I only wish we'd heard Joko himself chat about Thorn with Nolan North's juicy voice).

    • Developing Kralkatorrik. I was worried if Kralkatorrik would be a mostly mindless force of nature despite the novel Edge of Destiny depicting him as cunning. Thankfully we not only got to meet the real Kralk but also learned the shocking twist which painted his vile actions in a new, tragic and even sympathetic light as yet another victim of magic. One of the most touching moments of the season for me was the heart to heart between Kralk and Aurene and the latter genuinely grieving him, with even our Commander pausing a bit to take it all in.

    • The dredge! I really enjoyed the dredge's return in Ep5, and how we finally met female dredge with some juicy dialogue written by Lily Yu who was sadly laid off in February (a loss to the Narrative Team as her enthusiasm was infectuous and she has a long history of award-winning written works). Interactions with the dredge in story and open world was charming, and we learned quite a bit about dredge society since the times of the personal society, with Varya being a lovely character in particular. The tragedies of Sergei in particular were a nice touch, humanizing the grief of the dredge in suitable ways, and paving way for their glorious assistance in the battle against Kralk.

    • Introduction of Overseer Kuda, and her living to see another day. This open world villain was one of the most interesting additions to the story with hints of her being Kudu's daughter. I imagine she may play a part in a storyline involving Zojja (who hopefully won't let the daughter of her archenemy finish Kudu's work) and perhaps even Aurene if Kuda can figure out how to control not only crosscorrupted dragon minions but also the Elder Dragons themselves.

    • Great battle set pieces. In general I'd say each of the final instances of S4 delivered solid and memorable story moments. Trying to free Taimi from Joko's cruel death trap while she's forced to fight against us (I'm still surprised Joko just didn't turn her into an Awakened to add salt into the wound), battling the tragic villain Lonai across various locations throughout Tyria and the Mists, going mano y mano on Joko at the heart of Gandara, facing Zafirah in a duel and leaving Blish to perform his heroic sacrifice while we try to outrun Kralk before he consumes everything around us, fighting Kralkatorrik in an all-out battle in Thunderhead Keep with wonderful camera movements and well-synced music cues, the dragonflight aerial battle through the Mists (which is a good start for future, more complex flight sequences if the devs ever decide to return to the idea) and finally entering the eerie inner domain of Kralk to face his torment as well as the aspects of the three bosses from previous major storylines to cap off the season finale all left their mark on many of us, I imagine.

    What I disliked

    • No prominent use of Joko's leitmotif for his heart to heart talk with the Commander. I understand the need for a more ambient track for the villain monologue in the Gandara cinematic, but scores of films like Sinbad Legend of the Seven Seas have shown us that you can provide subtle leitmotivic development for characters even when a conversation is going on without hitting you on the head with it. I would've imagined that the boastful Joko had been accompanied by his sinister theme or a variation of it for his last moment in the spotlight when he believed his ultimate triumph was at hand.

    • No Kas and Jory throughout the season outside some references and brief remote dialogue with Taimi in Thunderhead Keep. While I understand the need to keep the cast limited as the season had to juggle several characters already, both Kas and Jory had thematic ties to the narrative of the season. Kas is the only PoF hero not returning for Season 4 despite being prominent in the expansion, she had her faith in the gods shaken by PoF and would've had interesting reactions to Aurene consuming the god she had once honored, she could've had nice interactions with former Zaishen enemy Zafirah and come around to understand why the Zaishen priests of Balthazar followed Balthazar and helped them redeem themselves, and she would've been thrilled to see a proper revival of the Sunspears under the charismatic Zaeim. Jory's detective skills would've helped us figure out Joko's endgame, her necromancy skills would've been interesting to contrast with Joko's scourge powers so she might figure out the origins of Joko's lich powers to set up the finale, and she certainly would've had a thing or two to say about Caithe's Branding and the founding of the Order of the Crystal Bloom.

    • Lack of exploring Joko's past, and not involving Turai Ossa. While Turai was planned for the final confrontation with Joko, sadly this was cut out in rewrites. I feel his story needed a bit more closure, perhaps aiding us in the final battle against Joko before Joko sprung his final trap. While I appreciate the direct approach to assault Gandara, I wish some of the ideas from the previous draft exploring Joko's past had carried over, if not in an episode preceding Gandara, then between current episodes 5 and 6 where we might've learned that both Vizier Khilbron and Joko had possessed Abaddon's scrolls before becoming liches (which is actually canonical; you can see the cited sources in Joko's GW2 article) so Joko's powers might have something to do with Abaddon in a roundabout way (and eventually foreshadow Aurene's resurrection).

    • Joko could've had more screentime. While I understand the devs' reason to limit his appearances due to not wanting him to overstay his welcome, Joko had potential to be a bigger villain (even though he was kind of a joke back in Nightfall). Perhaps an episode more in between Ep2 and Ep3 and turning the Scarab Plague into a bigger threat than it ended up being, although I admired the attempted unleashing of it on Amnoon with genuinely horrific moments.

    • Aurene's invasion of Gandara. While I can buy Aurene using her cloaking ability from S3 when we played hide and seek with her in Tarir, to sneak into Gandara and surprise Joko, I still found it odd that Joko, who had seen Aurene in action saving Amnoon from the plague, didn't seem to have any contingency plan for the Commander's dragon ally should she join the fray. While Joko was comedic, he was also fiendishly clever as seen with his trap in Gandara, so leaving Aurene out of the equation felt odd. It probably would've made more sense for him to trap Aurene as well or keep her out via other means to gloat his victory until Turai Ossa stepped in and sabotaged his trap and defenses to allow Aurene to go for the kill, thus us witnessing past and present heroes work together to defeat the villain.

    • No mention of the shady side of the Order of Shadows in S4. PoF gave us an intriguing hint in the dispatches about Shadows agents murdering a Whispers operative who had gotten too close to the truth about their modus operandi. The intel reports, written relatively recently as it refrences S3 plot, also suggested that the original Elonian Whispers had survived in the south despite us only finding the ruined Chantry in Jahai in S4. This Shadows betrayal plot was probably one of the scrapped storylines when the devs rewrote S4, but I still feel we should've had some sort of confrontation with Shadows even if Kito and Kossan had ultimately been the good guys who might end up opposing the machinations of the Master of Shadows. Perhaps this plot can be redeemed in the future if the Master of Shadows intends to use Kossan as a figurehead to manipulate the future Elonian council, if not focus his efforts on swaying Zaeim.

    • No resolution for the Forged. It was incredibly odd how S4 ignored the Forged, claiming that they had been wiped out by the Awakened. I find this hard to believe as the Forged were numerous and many of them consisted of war veterans, some of whom had had millennia of combat experience. We never learned what happened to the General of the Burning Forest mentioned in Devona's writings as he was supposed to prepare for Balthazar's coming in the south but never appeared anywhere in Vabbi or Desolation to my knowledge. It would be nice if in the future we meet surviving Forged and convince them to atone for their deeds like the Zaishen are now doing. They are tragic villains who can still achieve greatness now that Balthazar is gone.

    • Lack of Menzies. Just like the Forged, Menzies's storyline has been cast aside for now. While it's possible he died off screen between games, it wouldn't do the Lord of Destruction justice. Hopefully this evil half-brother of Balthazar is considered for future storylines, either in a raid or in a living world story possibly manipulating other villains for his own purposes to bring death and destruction to Tyria and have his revenge on Aurene and Commander for killing Balthazar before he got to it.

    • Bringing back Chief Kronon. This is admittedly something that would've required setup after using him as a bounty in Crystal Oasis, but I felt S4 lacked an overarching Branded antagonist. While we did see resurrected Shatterer and Wrathbringer as decent stand-ins, imagine if this foe from Edge of Destiny, who had legit reasons to hate Logan, Rytlock and Caithe (who had killed his beloved son and his trusty warmarshal) before his Branding, had returned to haunt our heroes as a terrifying mouthpiece for Kralk, as a literal demon from the past. Perhaps this plot can be returned to in the future if Kralk had Death-Branded Kronon and raised him from the dead before dying himself, thus leaving Kronon as an Unchained Branded champion who can now be free to pursue his own agenda (to an extent) and have his revenge on Destiny's Edge. He was one of the more compelling antagonists in Edge of Destiny, so seeing him return would be quite the treat, and I can imagine the devs would have juicy dialogue in mind for him. Not that I expect it after all this time, but the story potential is there.

    • Not mentioning the fact that at the end of Edge of Destiny Caithe had gathered Kralk's dragonblood so we had the material to craft the true successor Dragonsblood Spear all along. While I understand that her having this blood would complicate the narrative of S4, all I wanted was some explanation from Caithe in game about the blood, what she planned to do with it, and what had happened to it between the events of the novel and Season 4 if it couldn't be brought back for S4. Instead it seems that this little fact has now been retconned, making the entire ending of the novel (which spent a few paragraphs on this very subject) pointless. Perhaps we'll learn the story about Caithe's lack of mentioning the blood later if we return to the dragons' respective weaknesses, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

    • Speeding through Aurene's resurrection. While I can see the justification for Joko's lich magic resurrecting Aurene (after all, the lich Khilbron had blessed the Margonite called the Hunter with immortality with his lich powers in Nightfall, so I can see this kind of immortality being granted to others), the resurrection itself happened too fast and was too trivial even if it kinda made sense due to the Branded spike piercing Aurene's heart. It would've been far more involving if we had one episode between Ep5 and Ep6 where we, in our despair, seek help from the norn havroun mystics as science has failed us, and they try to commune with the wise Raven who may be able to help us now that Kralk is threatening the Spirits' Mists as well. Imagine having Raven as our spirit guide (which was kinda hinted at via the white raven in PoF's "The Departing" instance) and helping us locate Aurene's trapped soul in the shattered Domain of the Lost while also sending us to find out the origins of Joko's lichdom in the Sulfurous Wastes where the Great Margonite Temple might hold keys to the origins of this power if Joko and Khilbron both possessing Abaddon's scrolls and turning into liches connect their unholy power to Abaddon somehow. As a new "lich" Aurene would need help for her first resurrection, so even with that power we'd need some more info and aid her spirit in accomplishing the task, so we might find this info from potentially surviving good Margonites like the Lost or the Apostate (who in fact was our first source on the All and how crucial the magical balance of the Antikytheria mechanism with the dragons is to Tyria back in Season 2) to further shed light on the Glint's Legacy plan idea. This story could've even had us come face to face with surviving Forged as mentioned in an earlier point. This way we'd go for a propher Orphean descent into the Underworld to save Aurene's soul and allow her to resurrect, thus having more of an emotional connection when she does rise up again.

    • No appearance from Glint, Vlast, Eir, Snaff, Blish and Pyre. While I can kinda understand not bringing Pyre Fierceshot in for a glorious cameo (even though Steve Blum voices both him and Rytlock) with some fun banter between him and Rytlock, and how Blish might be truly gone if being directly consumed by Kralk also scattered his soul, I still feel we should've met the other heroes. Glint was oddly absent and even mentioned to be away in Ep6 with only her echo guiding us. The dragonflight sequence would've been more impactful if we'd seen Glint and Vlast appear in one of the god realms each, perhaps sacrificing themselves in Kralk's jaws one by one (while delivering inspirational speeches to Aurene) to buy us and Aurene more time while Aurene got to say her final farewells with them. It would even give more weight to Kralk's lines about not wanting Aurene to kill what she loves like he had to do when we've personally seen Kralk kill his closest family members in his ravenous state of mind. Eir should've been around to have her final hunt with Braham instead of Braham mostly standing by the sidelines throughout the battle with Kralk, and we'd get to have an emotional moment between Eir, Caithe, Logan and Rytlock as they come to terms with their losses. Snaff likewise should've been there for the same purpose, helping Taimi and Gorrik devise the clever devices to disrupt the Brandstorms and perhaps even hinting at Kralk's true nature due to being the only mortal to have been inside the Crystal Dragon's mind.

    • Not witnessing Almorra's resolution with Kralk. Almorra not getting a powerful story scene with Kralk was a shame even though it's understandable in the narrative due to the above ground and underground fights happening simultaneously; it would've made narrative sense to see her sacrifice herself to bring Kralk down for good as there's dialogue from Laranthir succeeding Almorra one day, while Almorra's goal in life was to have her revenge on Kralk out of all the dragons. On the other hand Almorra surviving opens a new story for her and how she feels about her life once the other dragons have been dealt with, but I still feel we needed to have Almorra with us on the epilogue's airship to say how relieved she is to finally avenge her warband after all these years.

    • Zojja and Garm's absence. While I can understand devs not wanting to introduce too many characters for the conflict in Ep6, it was baffling to me that Zojja and Garm weren't around for the third round against Kralkatorrik. Imagine the heartwrenching reunions and farewells between the pairs of Zojja and Snaff and Eir and Garm. Snaff could've helped Zojja to finally forgive Eir who in turn helped Garm move on with potential hints at Garm's dire wolf pack existing somewhere out there. I sincerely hope we get these scenes in the future in some way, perhaps in a Jormag related storyline, to give these characters some closure at long last.

    • No scene between Logan and Aurene. I was surprised we never got to see the guilt-ridden Logan apologizing to Aurene for getting her mom killed, and Aurene forgiving him for his actions. While such a scene seems extremely unlikely now, I'd like to see some scene between Logan and Aurene in the future in whatever stories are to come.

    • No war between Risen and Awakened at Scavenger's Causeway. After the lovely tease in "The Movement of the World" article, it would've been great to see Awakened battling the Risen in a proper undead showdown in Scavenger's Causeway. Perhaps we'll visit that area in the future and discover how post-Joko Awakened and post-Zhaitan Unchained Risen fare and if we can see some "friendly" Unchained forming bonds with the Awakened as unlikely as that may seem for the time being.

    • Domain of Kourna suffering from the reshuffling of teams and the rewriting of the story. It's the most incomplete S4 map with lots of potential with some nice Inquest, heket and loyalist lore, but it always saddens me looking at Gandara in its current state and seeing what could've been. Troopmarshal Olori Ogun should've been the meta boss of Gandara rather than becoming a legendary bounty, to act as the Beastmarshal's equivalent but in open world.

    So, ultimately all of my minor grievances with the story could've been simply resolved via a handful of additional episodes to this season. I feel the six-episode format for a season is too limiting for the stories ANet tries to tell, especially if each episode has a maximum of 5-6 story beats. Hopefully the devs will reconsider the model and either extend the number of episodes per season, or increase the number of story instances and story moments per episode to make the pacing of the narrative more even in the future as they have a great world, characters and lore to work with if they can make it work with the budget and voice actors (which can be a tricky thing given the complexity of game development as a whole, but they've done quite well with the stuff they had on hand, so I'm holding out hope for some compromise). :)

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    I think LS4 is my favorite season so far. Sure, it has its drawbacks and obvious shortcomings, but it also has awesome moments and some very fun gameplay.

    To me, Blish and Gorrik are both aspects I disliked and liked in this season. I absolutely couldn't stand their original concept and their involvement in the first episodes. Every minute they had screentime they just reminded me how Fullmetal Alchemist had much better character writing. Also, Gorrik's blatant incompetence in the very field he considered himself to be an expert in was enough to constantly break my suspension of disbelief. And that's all really sad, because I never disliked the characters themselves. They are both quite alright. However, their roles in the beginning... Just no.
    On the other hand, Gorrik's role in the later episodes makes his character much less "Oh-look-FMA-was-cool" and more unique and fitting to the rest of the guild. Also, fortunately he changed his field of interest and is no longer talking nonsense about insects. He and Taimi make a pretty good team. I wouldn't have thought he'd fit in so well, great job. :)

  • Dediggefedde.4961Dediggefedde.4961 Member ✭✭✭

    I was really relieved when Aurene was resurrected.
    Her death was foreshadowed and put into an epic scene.
    However, it also felt a bit cheap like she pulled a prank "I wasn't dead after all".

    Maybe drawing this a bit out would have helped.
    For example, you find out she is still alive, but you need some way to neutralize the shards, so you need to meet up with ogden/glint/someone else, grab some shiny stuff, bring that back and let her resurrect.
    "Press F to resurrect" felt a bit cheap...

    But the rest of the story arch was very great. I was always very interested in the next chapters.
    However, I also completely lost interest in achievements, because many required to do the instances multiple times...

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

    the team is very creative when they want, and without doubt, the joko scene was by far one the best dialogue-cinematic i had seen on any game. (and I'm an old gamer I'm 37 years old). no single scene of consecrated titles like Dragon Age Inquisition (for exemple) reaches the height of that.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 22, 2019

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

    the team is very creative when they want, and without doubt, the joko scene was by far one the best dialogue-cinematic i had seen on any game. (and I'm an old gamer I'm 37 years old). no single scene of titles consecrated as Dragon Age Inquisition reaches the height of that.

    The dialogue cinematic was outstanding. I'm unable to think of a better cutscene in the game nor a dialogue which encapsulated the moment so well. Whilst I am sure they are, they should look back with pride on that monologue, even though it set up something which led to nothing

    Sadly, they threw the entire thing under a bus with what happened next in what was probably one of the worst and stupidly thought out moments in the entire GW history (outside of the LS1 fiasco). Whilst the rest of the episode was an unfortunate mess, the fight and the cutscene up until his demise was an absolute highlight. I am unsurprised the devs admitted regret for his death and its handling given the wider negative feedback across all their feedback platforms. Whilst his ill thought out, illogical and cheesy death scene gave some a chuckle, I have little doubt it was the least popular segment in the season.

    It simply baffles me that such high quality and such abominable quality (ie almost everything leading up to the final instance) can co-exist in a single, extremely short episode.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    "a lot of great analysis"

    Thank you for the post, I agree with most of it, especially the first paragraph. I would add to that paragraph that the one thing that didn't work, Aurene's resurrection, was written during a heart breaking event for the studio.

    It is difficult to recommend a different approach to her resurrection without knowing what they intended with her death. Her death and journey through the dragon afterlife may end up being an important plot point. Something obviously happened, she is not the same dragon. If so, then they couldn't have had the PC accompany her without giving significant information about future plot. If their only intent was showing the NPCs dealing with the prospect of her death, then Imo, it didn't need to happen or we needed to see a much broader range of reactions that included all the stages of grief with some NPCs still working the problem. They would have also needed to take the PC narrator more seriously, we weren't going to buy Aurene's death as the death of Tyria and we would project that disbelief onto the NPC characters. Unless they were shown to be acting realistically and with great dimension, they would instead appear extra incompetent and one dimensional. Which is what happened.

    I would have used the requiems to reinforce the mystery of Schrodinger's dragon. Have some characters believe she can be saved, remove the branding and the spike but not get any reaction. Some characters could struggle to decipher inconclusive readings from the Asuran magitech. There are many approaches but the overall intent would be to ressonate with the PC narrator's disbelief and not force it into submission. Open the next episode with Caithe and the Commander beside Aurene. Caithe is forcing the bond to reignite, bargaining with fate, offering herself in exchange for Aurene. Using a combination of Joko's magic and her bond with Caithe as an anchor, Aurene resurrects. Aurene doesn't understand her power of resurrection and draws too much life force from Caithe, converting her entirely into crystal. Caithe could stay in this form until the end of the episode. Aurene would return to her after defeating Kralk and with her new abilities, return Caithe to normal. If the crystalization happened slowly enough, Aurene could recover enough to implore the Commander to use their dragon magic to sever the bond, leaving Caithe incapacitated but with only crystal blooms.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • @Vayne.8563 said:
    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

    yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I think one of the reasons Joko's speech is so popular is because he is projecting beyond the fourth wall. He is talking directly to the Commander, the Tyrian PC narrator and the meta of PC narration in mmo's.

    all primes work and not tearing down has value
    ready purrlayer @ any parsed feels enhance the value of something that is already worth everything
    what other chordal approach but penultimate singing along with other quantum cuddle clocks

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

    yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

    I didn't particularly find that episode bad. In fact, I quite enjoyed a lot of it. Gorrik's trial was fairly entertaining to me. The scene with the plague guys coming off the boat that was the first instance. Using the servered arm in the second instance was a hoot. There's a lot in that instance and I've played it many times. I'd have played it a lot anyway because I do the story on many characters each time, but this particularly story had a lot of depth, at least in regards to mechanics. Getting all the armies across through a smaller portal is a pretty fun concept to me. Using the arm was pretty fun. The skills are varied and it changed up the game considerably. The open world stuff was par for the course. I didn't have problems with most of the hearts in that area, and I didn't have problems so much with the zone. I love the roller beetle and that whole story arc, so yeah, I didn't have the issues with the chapter leading up to that. Mind you I was able to buy into the whole scarab plague storyline.

    Part of the problem was the early bugs in the instance that drove people crazy, and that set the tone I think for what was to come later, but I thought they story was fine for what it was. Obviously after the more serious overtones of the Balhazar fight, it was supposed to be lighter in tone. In Guild Wars 1, Joko stuff was lighter in tone as well, which is probably why I didn't mind it.

  • Tarlonniel.6534Tarlonniel.6534 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2019

    I also watched the scene several times (on different characters), but not to hear the speech. It was to enjoy Aurene turning Joko into a mid-afternoon snack.

    Hated that guy.

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Whether I agree or disagree with anything else you said, Joko's speech was absolutely my favorite dialogue in the game end stop. It was absolutely fantastic. Obviously it's a matter of opinion but to me that was one of the most masterful scenes from my perspective. The idea that Joko was painting us as the villain, trying to get into our heads, to make us feel bad about our decisions, to make us feel responsible...hes' not even wrong. We killed elder dragons not know the effect they would have on the world. We didn't really understand the forces were were affecting. It's very good writing. Aurene killing him was hysterical. Came out of nowhere. That was perfect to me.

    Now, I play this stuff with a lot of guildies and help a lot of people do achievements so I've done this over 20 times, with 20 different people. Not one person that I've played with didn't enjoy that scene. Obviously it's too small a sampling size to be truly significant, but everyone I've talked to about it really liked it. From other people talking, it seems very popular, as does Joko. You may not have liked it and that's fair enough but I'm pretty sure this whole sequence was pretty popular over all.

    yes, that scene is awesome. It was so great, I pushed another char through lw3 and lw4 to that point just to enjoy it again. I loved it. Everyone I talked to loves it. It is one of the great moments in the game.

    I didn't particularly find that episode bad. In fact, I quite enjoyed a lot of it. Gorrik's trial was fairly entertaining to me. The scene with the plague guys coming off the boat that was the first instance. Using the servered arm in the second instance was a hoot. There's a lot in that instance and I've played it many times. I'd have played it a lot anyway because I do the story on many characters each time, but this particularly story had a lot of depth, at least in regards to mechanics. Getting all the armies across through a smaller portal is a pretty fun concept to me. Using the arm was pretty fun. The skills are varied and it changed up the game considerably. The open world stuff was par for the course. I didn't have problems with most of the hearts in that area, and I didn't have problems so much with the zone. I love the roller beetle and that whole story arc, so yeah, I didn't have the issues with the chapter leading up to that. Mind you I was able to buy into the whole scarab plague storyline.

    Part of the problem was the early bugs in the instance that drove people crazy, and that set the tone I think for what was to come later, but I thought they story was fine for what it was. Obviously after the more serious overtones of the Balhazar fight, it was supposed to be lighter in tone. In Guild Wars 1, Joko stuff was lighter in tone as well, which is probably why I didn't mind it.

    no, it was not the bugs. I am prepared to see bugs, if I rush into an episode on patch day.

    As I said earlier: story great. I enjoyed it very much. Hearts never give me any problems. But the map is so freaking BORING and GRIND-Y that I was fed up with it pretty quickly and very thoroughly. But oh no! You want the bug? do it over and over and over and over and... gaaaaaaaaaaah. And then Skyscale forced me to grind it AGAIN. At least the vision part was quick and rather painless...

  • brenda.9723brenda.9723 Member ✭✭✭

    dislikes
    I think for gw1 veterans, who have waited for years for joko's return, his ending was very dissapointing.
    I did not like any of the major deaths this season (joko, aurene, blish).

    My opinion on Zafirah
    I dont like Zafirah, bc she brings nothing new to the story. The balthazar arc in Pof was just really bad, and introducting this character is not fixing anything of that mess (that should be fixed). My GW1 god was Balthazar and I really feel salty about his story arc. And Zafirah is reminding me everytime of that story :(.

    Likes:
    I liked the magic areas from a different space and time. I really liked canach and blish. I liked the braham story bits. I was happy that marjory and kasmeer were not part of the story bc i dont like the new Dragonswatch.

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    The story made me cringe tbh..

    It's almost like a fan fiction. Lots of plot holes everywhere. Since when did aurene suddenly start talking? Super cheesy.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

    Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

    They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • EmmetOtter.8542EmmetOtter.8542 Member ✭✭✭

    Well Joko was wrong about us.

    E-P-I-D-E-M-I-C Ka-BRAHAM!

    I loved that line

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

    Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

    They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

    please, it went from insert animal sounds here to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

    Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheBravery.9615 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

    Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

    They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

    please, it went from insert animal sounds here to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

    Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

    You mean she couldn't have learned to talk from being psyhically linked to Caithe? I think that there's no muh magic about it. There's a mechanism you're deciding to ignore. You may not like it, but I had no problem at all with her talking after the events that lead up to it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @TheBravery.9615 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

    Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

    They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

    please, it went from insert animal sounds here to fluent human language. Don't tell me that's not ridiculous

    Don't give me "But muh magic" the plot wasn't very well written IMHO

    They did admit they rushed her speaking for the sake of that flight instance, but it makes sense all the same.

    Glint learned to speak by reading the minds of those near her. Aurene's been connected to the Commander's mind tentatively since Season 3 Heart of Thorns, and she directly linked herself to Caithe in the first instance we hear undertones of her voice. It's established lore from the personal story that the Elder Dragons learn what their minions know. Caithe is Aurene's minion now, so Aurene knows what Caithe knows. And that includes how to speak.

    This is the one thing in the plot that was perfectly established by lore for years before the revelation and is in fact, not contradictory.

    I'm not saying the overall plot was well written. Gods know anyone who frequents the forum will know I pick it apart at the first go. But Aurene speaking makes perfect sense in the lore. If anything, she should have begun speaking sooner due to her connection to the Commander (and if ArenaNet had not restricted themselves to 6 episodes, but instead did 9 as both Season 3 and Season 4 truly required to get the full scale of the plot exposed and evolved, I'm sure it would have happened that way).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't get why people find Aurene talking cringy, cheesy, or weird.

    Glint spoke. Vlast spoke. Why shouldn't Aurene speak, given time?

    They even led up to it by having Aurene's voice underline Caithe's in Episode 5.

    I think it's just the way they decided to make Aurene speak. I myself feel it was very forced. It's as if they didn't think of it for the whole PoF and LWS4 and someone reminded them at the very last moment.

    I love the idea of all 3 crystal dragons speaking to us, really. I just don't think this way was the best we could get. When we met Vlast, he already had the ability to talk, and that actually did not surprise me, since there is a sense of continuity after Glint.

    As for Aurene. I don't think it's as believable for Aurene to speak.

    Joko final scene. For me, it not only hurt Joko but also Aurene's character. From this very moment I no longer treated her as this scion of Glint and sister of Vlast but a savage animal - then, her suddenly speaking didn't bother me.
    This might sound like a hyperbole but the Joko Finale scene actually lowered a lot of my enjoyment of the whole LW experience from then on. Even though there were amazing moments.

    Aurene speaking isn't cheesy od weird itself. It's just the setting she was given made it less believable. That might be the case, or maybe I'm just going to deep. But I really think that for many people this moment was a big turn off which flattened both Joko and Aurene.

  • @Arden.7480 said:
    Joko's speech didn't have any sense.

    Just to save the rest of the thread from another wall of text, I'll stick with this point.

    I thought Joko's speech was one of the best parts of the season. I myself was beginning to get a little frustrated with where the Commander was going, as the big dragon-killing story achievements were steadily being portrayed as an unbalancing and unsustainable course of action. The Commander (and everyone else, really) didn't know what to do with the Elder Dragons outside of killing them or beating them back into a coma, and just kept doing the only thing we knew how to do. I don't think Joko really had a long term solution for the dragon situation either, but I thought he had a valid point when it came down to stopping the Commander from just doing the same Commandery thing until the world blew up.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2019

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Joko's speech didn't have any sense.

    Just to save the rest of the thread from another wall of text, I'll stick with this point.

    I thought Joko's speech was one of the best parts of the season. I myself was beginning to get a little frustrated with where the Commander was going, as the big dragon-killing story achievements were steadily being portrayed as an unbalancing and unsustainable course of action. The Commander (and everyone else, really) didn't know what to do with the Elder Dragons outside of killing them or beating them back into a coma, and just kept doing the only thing we knew how to do. I don't think Joko really had a long term solution for the dragon situation either, but I thought he had a valid point when it came down to stopping the Commander from just doing the same Commandery thing until the world blew up.

    I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

    I believe they wanted to make our minds twist, but failed completely with Aurene.

    They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos.

    No one expected him to dare to throw reality into chaos, he was just wicked, killed for pleasure - that's why we wanted to take him down. If he actually wanted to make the Commander feel bad, he would actually play with us, but he was being a massive hypocrite all along. And when he started to preach us about how horrible we are... It would make sense, if Joko would actually care about Tyria, if he did, he would leave his Bone Palace and run to the Commander while attacking Maguuma or Orr and shout: WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?! KILLING DRAGONS IS BAD!

    And then he was just sitting there, talking that he twisted people's mind to believe that he defeated dragons etc. But why would he do that? Like... the whole Joko's plot was really stupid.

    But surely no mortal would be so monumentally STUPID as to destroy a dragon, the life force of this world.

    Thousands of mortals stood against Zhaitan and Mordremoth, because Zhaitan was threatening the whole Tyria, Risen's horde attacked everyone. Mordremoth twisted Sylvari's mind, made them do unforgivable things, we had to STOP them for the sake of Tyria's future - yes, we caused chaos after that, but that is just how chaotic Tyria is, no matter if we did or didn't kill the Dragons, it would lead to something even more bad.
    What Joko should have done is showing compassion towards the Commander, because the Commander wants to repair Tyria and has a lot of people behind him, that support him, but no matter what we all do... it turns against us - it's dramatic, Joko, if truly was a good and deep character, he would be able to leave his own 'shoot' and just stop being a hypocrite.

    Let alone two. And a god to boot? Perhaps they will finally thank me for luring you to me...

    Except, he was the one that teamed up with Balthazar in the first place - to cause chaos, and before that he just says: "The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos", like WTH?

    He was talking some kitten, that wasn't based on any wisdom. So meaningless...

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

    You keep calling Joko a hypocrite, but I think you fundamentally misunderstand what Joko was saying.

    Joko is not claiming to be a hero or a particularly good/helpful force. Instead, he's just saying that the Commander is also not a particularly good/helpful force either, despite being called one.

    I believe they wanted to make our minds twist, but failed completely with Aurene.

    Agreed. I don't think it was an impressive story twist.

    They call me a monster and you a hero. The world expects Palawa Joko to dare to throw reality into chaos.

    No one expected him to dare to throw reality into chaos, he was just wicked, killed for pleasure - that's why we wanted to take him down.

    You're just repeating things you don't understand, without analyzing it. What does "throwing reality into chaos" actually mean? Because frankly Joko can and does cause regular old chaos, porting Awakened forces all over the world, re-releasing the plague, etc. Being wicked and killing for pleasure can throw societies into chaos as well.

    If I had to guess at what Joko specifically meant by "throwing reality into chaos", I think it was just a dramatic way of saying "end the world." Given that we took time to fight him, that to me means that we assessed the threat Joko posed as important enough to deal with alongside that posed by the Dragons - which are world-ending threats, or at least the biggest threats around. So at least some people thought Joko to be about as dangerous as anything can get in the world.

    If he actually wanted to make the Commander feel bad, he would actually play with us, but he was being a massive hypocrite all along.

    So.... freezing the Commander in place and then taunting them with a grandiose speech isn't playing with the Commander? And again with the hypocrite thing.

    And when he started to preach us about how horrible we are... It would make sense, if Joko would actually care about Tyria, if he did, he would leave his Bone Palace and run to the Commander while attacking Maguuma or Orr and shout: WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING?! KILLING DRAGONS IS BAD!

    Again, I think you misunderstand Joko, and are putting words into his mouth. He never once claimed to care about Tyria, he's just saying it's dumb how the Commander (who supposedly cares a lot about Tyria) was running around doing something so harmful to Tyria.

    And then he was just sitting there, talking that he twisted people's mind to believe that he defeated dragons etc. But why would he do that? Like... the whole Joko's plot was really stupid.

    Not sure what you know about international politics and history, but dictators throughout time demonstrated a hilarious tendency to take credit for things they didn't do. Arenanet didn't make up this behavior out of nothing - it's a very standard approach to brainwashing new generations of people born into a society closed off from the outside world.

    I wish I had time for the rest of your post, but I don't right now. At any rate, the rest of what you said seems to stem from the same two misunderstandings:

    (1) just because Joko calls the Commander a bad guy does not mean that Joko is calling himself a good guy at the same time, and
    (2) just because our intentions as the Commander are good doesn't necessarily excuse us from the negative consequences of our actions.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I am completely behind Vol on this one, it's entirely consistent with Joko's character and how he's acted throughout the season. Hypocrisy would indicate Joko is pretending to be a thing he's not, and to the people of Elona he certainly is, but to his personal playthings he makes no bones about being just as wicked and cruel as he actually is. That's why I enjoyed Joko's speech so throughly, it wasn't raising himself above you, it was dragging you down to his level.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 12, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    I have a reasons to believe his "majestic, great, wow" speech didn't make sense, unless they wanted to make Joko such a hypocrite.

    He's a pathological liar and backstabber. Hypocrisy is a tiptoe away from that. That said, there wasn't anything really hypocritical in his speech to the Commander. It was full out gloating and demoralization.

    IMO, the only thing about Joko's speech that didn't make sense was his reasoning for why people believed he killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth so easily. The only ones who believed that lie were Elonians that have been born and raised under the idea that Joko was a god-king and could do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. That was why they so easily believed him, not because he was a villain and the Commander a hero and killing Elder Dragons was bad, mkay.

    But this just fits with Joko's personality of being a pathological liar and backstabber. He wanted to bring the Commander down, crush them physically and spiritually, and what better way than to point out that the heroic actions that injured the world were the most heinous and villainous of deeds.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Joko likes psychological warfare, so the speech itself was not a surprise, but it was expected of Joko. The people find it great, because most gw2 villains doesnt talk too much, even the most "humanoids" like Balthazar or Caudecus. Also its very fit the Joko character build up, he likes mock/demoralize his enemies.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Aurene's "ascension" at the end was like Christ when He ascended to heaven as God while His disciples looked on. It was the same principle. For this I am disappointed. I think that it was perhaps not very original for them to have Aurene "ascend" the way Christ did leaving His "friends" as He called them all watching Him.

    I would prefer the lore not be so reminiscent of real people's faith in a game. I'd rather see something totally original and having nothing to do with religious beliefs in the world.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 16, 2019

    @Electra.7530 said:
    Aurene's "ascension" at the end was like Christ when He ascended to heaven as God while His disciples looked on. It was the same principle. For this I am disappointed. I think that it was perhaps not very original for them to have Aurene "ascend" the way Christ did leaving His "friends" as He called them all watching Him.

    I would prefer the lore not be so reminiscent of real people's faith in a game. I'd rather see something totally original and having nothing to do with religious beliefs in the world.

    Jesus Aurene received a vision of his her death by his father her mother. Fearful at first, he she lashed out, but soon came to terms with his her death. Upon a struggle before death, he she resurrected after three days months, and would shortly after ascend to the heavens as an Elder Dragon, leaving behind his disciples her allies. His her death and resurrection would spread a faith known as Christianity Order of the Crystal Bloom, a religious and sometimes militant organization.

    Honestly, the only thing the parallel is missing is the betrayal of Judas. Aurene is literally a bad and overused trope. Might as well have lampshaded the whole thing instead of trying to pass it off as serious.

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