Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we please talk about the "Marked" debuff?

Noodica.5428Noodica.5428 Member ✭✭✭

Before we go ahead - I would like to mention that I PERSONALLY called for something to combat permastealth deadeyes before marked sentries etc were added to WvW. I made a video on it which blew up and many people agreed. But instead of sorting this out with the deadeye specialization all stealth oriented builds are literally rendered useless a lot of the time. Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

What are these players to do? Only sit in their half of the map? Marked really needs to be looked at because 30s of no stealthing for long at a time is honestly insanely triggering especially in clutch/intense type situations where that stealth really matters but there is literally nothing you can do. Regular D/P Thieves, Many mesmer builds, Holosmith tool belt, rangers who smoke leap or hunters shot, scrappers with stealth gyro etc - why are literally all of these classes punished because of one overpowered class?

In all honesty, as annoying as it was having permastealth deadeyes one shot you from stealth - I would rather see the mode return to how it was BEFORE marked revealed you at every corner of the map. Please look into this, especially now that the potential upcoming WvW changes will implement much more reveal around the board anyway.

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Comments

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Noodica.5428 said:
    Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

    Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

    But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

    I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

    And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

    PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:
    Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

    Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

    But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

    I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

    And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

    PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

    Thought it was after 2 secs then 3 secs of reveal. Which is an issue when some of the thief's traits trigger at the 3 second mark.

    D:

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  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A lot of people on these forums seem to favor strategizing and say how towers fall in 5 minutes so why not just flip all those towers that present a threat to perma stealth?

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    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't find myself countered by Mark at all. It was annoying when it first came out and we were getting used to it, but now it's just knowing whether or not you've been marked and playing around that - whether it be continuing to engage or retreating. We have more than enough tools to deal with single enemies without needing to stealth for longer than 2 seconds at a time.

    Fort Aspenwood
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  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

    @enkidu.5937 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:
    Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    You can still stealth when marked. IIrc after 3 secs of stealth you get revealed for 3 secs, and can re-enter stealth for another 3 secs afterwards.

    Thats what a lot of ppl have asked for: no perma stealth, if you cloak for a short period of time, you should be unable to stealth for the same period afterwards. Imo thats totally fine.

    But not in combination with revealed skills, that preemptively apply "revealed" even if the target isn't even in stealth at that moment. And channeling skills that keep tracking the target even if it entered stealth (e. g. SlB rapid fire).

    I'd like to see that fixed. E. g. having AoE reveals like Ingi googles or Revs gaze of darkness only work if the enemy is already stealthed. And having SlB sic em or DH hunters verdict only apply "marked" for like 6 secs, instead of "revealed".

    And channeling skills that keep tracking and hitting a target entered stealth just seem broken to me.

    PS: loved that vid of yours, good luls ;)

    Thought it was after 2 secs then 3 secs of reveal. Which is an issue when some of the thief's traits trigger at the 3 second mark.

    D:

    Ah ok thx for the correction.

  • 30 sec is pretty brutal.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    I've only ever played DE after its nerfs, (and without d/p) and In my opinion its still very effective. Hearing horror stories of pre nerf DE sounds like typical Anet fashion in which they refuse to nerf new specs in-order to get that pay to win cash.

    But the changes they made to marked is way too much. If a class that utilizes stealth is too strong, then that class should be nerfed (as DE rightfully was) and brought into line with other classes. Presently if your class relies on stealth as a survival tool, or to do damage, then you can't fight when marked against an equally skilled player. Which means there are large sections of the map that you are unable to play in.

    Basically no class should be singled out and either given an advantage or disadvantage by tricks/tactics/sentries/buffs or debuffs or any other external game mechanic found in WvW. For instance imagine a tactic that you could put into a tower that disabled all stance type skills after 2 seconds. It would be ridiculous.

    WvW classes in an ideal world should be 100% balanced in ALL areas of the maps, the marked debuff prevents this.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    30 sec is pretty brutal.

    Tower mark like OP is talking about is not 30 seconds. It's persistent throughout the territory of the tower. As soon as you leave the territory lines, the mark is gone. The ones that have a 30s timer are those from Sentries, Target Painter Traps, and thrown Target Painters.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    Everyone gets marked for the same durations.
    There's ways around most marked areas.
    Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.
    Deadeyes still able to stealth for 95% of the time they're in a fight.
    There's mounts.

    Stealth in this game is low tier to put it nicely, it should have been designed for engaging and disengaging from a fight, not spammable and for use for the entirety of a fight, or usable like cloak and dagger on a god kitten wall(yes I know that was nerfed 6 years ago). But anet put stealth into the game without much thought into it like thinking of counter plays, because they didn't give a kitten until it was abused on a raid boss. Over the years they've had to add more reveals to the game because there's no reliable counter tells, in Wow you can't walk in front of someone otherwise it gives you a shadow and sound when a stealth is nearby.

    So nope, any nerf to stealth is a good nerf, and that's coming from a mesmer main.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Sylosis.7125Sylosis.7125 Member ✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    Watchtower/sentry marks are great imo, easier to find /get fights and action. Other wise you can spend ages roaming and find nothing, also makes it easier to scout without having to afk in tower (liek who wants to do this??). Just take care with marked and learn where you can go and then kite/move into an area in your favor. I agree there is too much stealth spam on some classes and i for one have wanted it toned down from the game since day one. But imo there are far more important things anet needs to do b4 this for the sake of the gamemode and its future.

  • Just delete the mark mechanic, most lazy implementation. And ... mounts, or give me my dismount button At least

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!
    The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

    • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
    • You never know when the hit is going to come.

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  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!
    The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

    • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
    • You never know when the hit is going to come.

    Thief has recently seen traps eliminated and seen other skills added. Some are, let’s just say not excited about thief portal.

    Careful what you ask for. Take away stealth (which, let’s face it won’t happen anytime soon) and you are going to get something... a lot worse.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine a thief that no longer has to ooc/dance around you/stealth and one that is straight up right in your face dealing dmg with passive defenses and invuls instead. Sounds exciting already. Make em like warriors or boonbeasts XD

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2019

    @Hitman.5829 said:
    Stealth is a very bad design in any game. GW2 has let stealth go rampant for so long!
    The solution is not reveal, but removal! Stealth in any video game does not have a purpose in competitive games because stealth players always has the advantage:

    • Stealth player can run away or play at his or her own pace.
    • You never know when the hit is going to come.

    What you mean to say it, you have a hard time dealing with players who use stealth, so you would like the thing you have a hard time with to go away. I almost always know when something is about to hit me out of stealth, because I'm not lazy and watch what's going on around me. A stealth player can even perma stealth as much as they want, they still have to avoid aoe and cleave and they have to come out to hit and hope their opener isn't mitigated, which it will likely be. A stealth heavy player has to play at my pace.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85314/evading-while-doing-damage-is-a-broken-mechanic

    If dodging or evading while doing damage is truly a broken mechanic, then players should not be able to stealth and do damage. I would agree with the OP that "Marked" should be re-examined but only if players who are stealthed give up their ability to attack other players.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @monk seal.8079 said:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/85314/evading-while-doing-damage-is-a-broken-mechanic

    If dodging or evading while doing damage is truly a broken mechanic, then players should not be able to stealth and do damage. I would agree with the OP that "Marked" should be re-examined but only if players who are stealthed give up their ability to attack other players.

    Attacking someone while you're in stealth already brings you out of stealth immediately for the attack to activate and gives you a penalty on top of that, what are you trying to suggest?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • monk seal.8079monk seal.8079 Member ✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @kash.9213 said:

    Attacking someone while you're in stealth already brings you out of stealth immediately for the attack to activate and gives you a penalty on top of that, what are you trying to suggest?

    As currently implemented in WvW, the player using stealth has too large an advantage in dictating the course of action. In the majority of cases, the stealthed player will get the first attack. One example: a ranger using Hunter's Shot will stealth for 3 seconds and can reposition to either side of or behind the target. The ranger can then use Rapid Fire and Long Range Shot on the target before that person can even react. If the target correctly guesses the direction from which the stealthed player will attack, he may be able to dodge the attack. Yes, there is a penalty for breaking stealth (Revealed) but that does not help the target who may be dead or in a Downed state after the getting hit by the Rapid Fire and Long Range Shot.

    Mesmer mantras are being adjusted because of complaints that there was no counterplay:

    "Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight."
    "Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight."

    I believe Stealth should be evaluated so that a player attacked by a stealthed player has reasonable chance for counter play and not have to rely on plain luck.

  • Remove the ability to remove reveal and put a 5-10 second cool down on silent scope, then remove marked from sentries and towers.

  • Mokk.2397Mokk.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the Marking around keeps, towers, camps.and sentries should be changed so your only marked for an allotted time if you attack said targets. More like an extension to just the contested signal. just to replace the current radar system. I think this would give roamers a better chance you do what they do best.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    This discussion is about certain classes being disadvantaged, not certain players. This is irrelevant.

    Everyone has to deal with being marked, get out of the area if you want it off, just like everyone else.

    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    Sure they do, if they don't want to be detected they need to avoid it too.

    Yes but all classes have mounts, so it's already even without marked being a thing.

    Use your mount get out of the marked zone, like everyone else.

    Now we've finally arrived at the problem. But it sounds like to me that your basis for liking marked is that you don't like fighting stealth classes. But Personally this isn't a good enough reason to bully certain classes. However perhaps you believe classes that utilize stealth are overpowered? You'd be in the minority if we go of polls done on these forums RECENTLY. However its a perfectly reasonable opinion to have. The solution is to nerf said classes to the point that they are now evenly matched and viable options to play and play against in all areas of the map. Not allocate certain area's of the map that these classes cannot go. This makes nobody happy, because outside of these area's the classes aforementioned in your eyes are still overpowered, which isn't acceptable game balance. Whilst for people who think the classes are balanced are singled out and heavily nerfed while in these area's. A compromise that leaves nobody satisfied.

    Yes I don't like stealth, I know how stupid stealth is because I have a mesmer main, but I deal with mark just fine. Plenty of areas to find a fight than under a kitten t3 tower with watch tower in it.

    What if arena net released a patch tomorrow that did nothing else but remove stealth from the game? No compensation, no re-work, but removed it. That would be a nerf to stealth right? Would it still be a good nerf?

    Frankly yes this game would be better overall without stealth, in fact look at all the changes anet has had to make to stealth so it isn't abused. The only exceptions to stealth that I think are fine are it's usage to engage and disengage fights, such as using veil which has 2s stealth but 72s cooldown, but sneak gyro is not fine with longer stealth and lower cooldown.

    I wouldn't expect removal without some rework for thieves because stealth was overly built into their class. For the health of the game, stealth should have had more limitations, same with a lot of other things like boons, but anet let a lot of things go wild and unwilling to fix it so whatever.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • >

    I'm tired of getting one-shot from stealth because the mesmer stealthed halfway across the map and insta-killed me with ZERO tells or any chance to react.

    Here is another example of why stealth needs to be re-evaluated.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    Same reason why other classes are forced to fight a class that pops one shot at 1200 range that put 4 condis on you, vanishes, shows up 3s later to pop another shot, vanishes, repeat.

    Get rid of that and we can talk unfair, sure.

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  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Everyone has to deal with being marked, get out of the area if you want it off, just like everyone else.

    Sure they do, if they don't want to be detected they need to avoid it too.

    Use your mount get out of the marked zone, like everyone else.

    No point really replying to any of these because we both know that a warrior is far less affected by mark than a thief for example. Not sure why you're insinuating every class has an equally difficult time when marked because I'm certain you and anyone else reading this knows that is blatantly false.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Yes I don't like stealth, I know how stupid stealth is because I have a mesmer main, but I deal with mark just fine. Plenty of areas to find a fight than under a kitten t3 tower with watch tower in it.

    Yes because mesmer's have many more survival skills apart from evades and stealth. They have multiple invunls, skills that break target and access to boons such as protection on a reliable basis. If you run a build that uses these aspects to survive, then I'd imagine that you would be fine under t3 towers. Other mesmer builds how, not so much.

    But thats besides the point. If you have a problem with stealth classes then the solution like I said is to nerf said classes so they are balanced EVERYWHERE. Not apply some mechanic that prevents them from roaming certain area's of the map whilst leaving other classes unhindered.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Frankly yes this game would be better overall without stealth, in fact look at all the changes anet has had to make to stealth so it isn't abused. The only exceptions to stealth that I think are fine are it's usage to engage and disengage fights, such as using veil which has 2s stealth but 72s cooldown, but sneak gyro is not fine with longer stealth and lower cooldown.

    I wouldn't expect removal without some rework for thieves because stealth was overly built into their class. For the health of the game, stealth should have had more limitations, same with a lot of other things like boons, but anet let a lot of things go wild and unwilling to fix it so whatever.

    This is just your subjective opinion and I respect that. Personally I don't have much trouble with stealth classes when I play a non stealth class. With all the reveals many classes have now and with experience in using stealth I find it to be manageable. For instance a holo smith running the lockon trait should never lose to a stealth class. Ever.
    But thats my subjective opinion, and personally regardless which one of us is correct I still hold the belief either way that marked needs to be overhauled and changed.

    Just to reiterate my main point. Classes should be evenly balanced across ALL area's of WvW. Marked ensures that around towers and sentries all classes are NOT evenly balanced. Which I believe is bad game design.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    Same reason why other classes are forced to fight a class that pops one shot at 1200 range that put 4 condis on you, vanishes, shows up 3s later to pop another shot, vanishes, repeat.

    Get rid of that and we can talk unfair, sure.

    So you're telling me you're quite content with said class being overpowered outside of marked area's? I doubt it. Instead you should be advocating that this class should be nerfed in order to ensure it is balanced around the entire map, and not simply balanced around sentries.

    But again subjective. As annoying as a condi poison DE is, I still find other classes far more dangerous. Usually classes that don't need stealth and are sustain gods. But again subjective.

    Also I have one class for you. Boon Holosmith with lockon trait.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Personally I don't have much trouble with stealth classes when I play a non stealth class.

    Neither do I, I run around on my condi mes these days to deal with all the annoying specs. I'd prefer power spec but broken specs force me to play condi instead to deal with them, hey look other things that force people to do other things to deal with things in this game.

    Classes should be evenly balanced across ALL area's of WvW. Marked ensures that around towers and sentries all classes are NOT evenly balanced. Which I believe is bad game design.

    That's great and all, except stealth isn't a balanced mechanic either.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Personally I don't have much trouble with stealth classes when I play a non stealth class.

    Neither do I, I run around on my condi mes these days to deal with all the annoying specs. I'd prefer power spec but broken specs force me to play condi instead to deal with them

    You aren't running a condi mirage mesmer are you? Because if you are then you have no right to call stealth broken hahaha

    hey look other things that force people to do other things to deal with things in this game.

    I mean you're starting to become a bit of a meme now. Im trying to discuss external WvW environmental factors that targets specific classes survivability and damage dealing tools, and now you're bringing up classes countering other classes like the two things are related?

    Classes should be evenly balanced across ALL area's of WvW. Marked ensures that around towers and sentries all classes are NOT evenly balanced. Which I believe is bad game design.

    That's great and all, except stealth isn't a balanced mechanic either.

    Neither is mirage condi mesmer, and yet you don't see sentries disabling invuln and distortion now do you.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    You aren't running a condi mirage mesmer are you? Because if you are then you have no right to call stealth broken hahaha

    Yeah I am, infinite horizon build, only stealth I have is from signet of midnight for expertise and stun break but also to stomp. And yes I have every right to call it broken because I play a class that's second in stealth to thieves, so therefore I know how bad it is. Also even if I did use a lot of stealth, I don't care what you think at this point because I will use the cheapest spec I enjoy to play because I'm 7 years tired of dealing with broken cheap specs out there, why shouldn't I be able to dish it back onto them?

    But I've always gone on record about my stance on broken stealth, broken boon sharing, broken defenses, broken one shot kills, broken one shot condi dumping, each and every one of those things I would have changes done to bring them in line even if it affected my class because I prefer a balance game than one riddled with broken extremes that some would prefer to abuse. I go into wvw and I can get roaming 19/20 kills, but you know the one thing I remember, is the one loss to some stupidly broken thing.

    I mean you're starting to become a bit of a meme now. Im trying to discuss external WvW environmental factors that targets specific classes survivability and damage dealing tools, and now you're bring up classes countering other classes like the two things are related?

    Don't stay in those zones if you want to survive, even my "broken condi mesmer" has to deal with this and I'm fine with it.

    Neither is mirage condi mesmer, and yet you don't see sentries disabling invuln and distortion now do you.

    Thought we were talking about stealth? does marked disable anything else on your thief?

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    Yeah I am, infinite horizon build, only stealth I have is from signet of midnight for expertise and stun break but also to stomp. And yes I have every right to call it broken because I play a class that's second in stealth to thieves, so therefore I know how bad it is. Also even if I did use a lot of stealth, I don't care what you think at this point because I will use the cheapest spec I enjoy to play because I'm 7 years tired of dealing with broken cheap specs out there, why shouldn't I be able to dish it back onto them?

    Nothing at all, in-fact I'd say thats the only way to play the game these days. But forgive me, I thought your hate for stealth builds was because you were running something like a zerker chrono/zerker core shatter build or something. You know something thats in no way overpowered and you're justifiably sick of stealth cheese classes destroying you by players rolling their faces over their keyboards. But here you in fact reveal that you're playing a build that puts that cheese condi DE build to shame. Your build is right up there with the cheesiest stealth builds you can find. Forgive me If i have trouble seeing past the hypocrisy of a tanky mirage condi spamming mesmer calling out stealth builds.

    But I've always gone on record about my stance on broken stealth, broken boon sharing, broken defenses, broken one shot kills, broken one shot condi dumping, each and every one of those things I would have changes done to bring them in line even if it affected my class because I prefer a balance game than one riddled with broken extremes that some would prefer to abuse.

    You mean like a condi spamming mirage? But yes I agree. Like I said, I'm happy for certain builds to get hit with the nerf hammer and make them balanced across the entire map. Like I keep repeating marked imbalances classes in certain area's, which isn't good game design. Classes should be balanced evenly across the map.

    I go into wvw and I can get roaming 19/20 kills, but you know the one thing I remember, is the one loss to some stupidly broken thing.

    That wouldn't surprise me, because it takes some stupidly broken thing, to beat a stupidly broken thing. I guarantee you some zerker reaper remembered getting spammed to death by you too.

    Don't stay in those zones if you want to survive, even my "broken condi mesmer" has to deal with this and I'm fine with it.

    Because condi mesmer builds typically have upwards of 2.7k armour, multiple target breakers, multiple invulns/distortions, reflects not to mention it can dodge while stunned/immobilized. You don't need stealth to destroy most builds in this game presently.

    Thought we were talking about stealth? does marked disable anything else on your thief?

    No i was merely drawing a comparison as to how sentries are extremely favorable to classes that don't use stealth to survive, by showing how taking away one classes main survival tools would be a determent to the class in question and yet matter very little to others. Because Imagine how silly I would look if sentries didn't add marked, but instead added an effect that stopped distortion in all its forms, how foolish would I look If i said "hey my thief has to deal with the same effect as your Mesmer". Despite thief having no need or access to those certain skills/effects. So you implying your build fighting while marked is equal to a thief fighting while marked is delusional.

  • Offair.2563Offair.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodica.5428 said:
    Before we go ahead - I would like to mention that I PERSONALLY called for something to combat permastealth deadeyes before marked sentries etc were added to WvW. I made a video on it which blew up and many people agreed. But instead of sorting this out with the deadeye specialization all stealth oriented builds are literally rendered useless a lot of the time. Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    What are these players to do? Only sit in their half of the map? Marked really needs to be looked at because 30s of no stealthing for long at a time is honestly insanely triggering especially in clutch/intense type situations where that stealth really matters but there is literally nothing you can do. Regular D/P Thieves, Many mesmer builds, Holosmith tool belt, rangers who smoke leap or hunters shot, scrappers with stealth gyro etc - why are literally all of these classes punished because of one overpowered class?

    In all honesty, as annoying as it was having permastealth deadeyes one shot you from stealth - I would rather see the mode return to how it was BEFORE marked revealed you at every corner of the map. Please look into this, especially now that the potential upcoming WvW changes will implement much more reveal around the board anyway.

    Before you go ahead you should realise deadeye spec got released way after sentry marks etc.

    Don't argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and own you with experience.
    Big Babou, Ranger for life.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    @Offair.2563 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:
    Before we go ahead - I would like to mention that I PERSONALLY called for something to combat permastealth deadeyes before marked sentries etc were added to WvW. I made a video on it which blew up and many people agreed. But instead of sorting this out with the deadeye specialization all stealth oriented builds are literally rendered useless a lot of the time. Take roaming in EBG for example - you run past a tower (literally everywhere), marked, boom stealth is practically out of play for 30 seconds bad luck. Add Sentries and Keeps to that - you are literally countered almost anywhere on the map.

    What are these players to do? Only sit in their half of the map? Marked really needs to be looked at because 30s of no stealthing for long at a time is honestly insanely triggering especially in clutch/intense type situations where that stealth really matters but there is literally nothing you can do. Regular D/P Thieves, Many mesmer builds, Holosmith tool belt, rangers who smoke leap or hunters shot, scrappers with stealth gyro etc - why are literally all of these classes punished because of one overpowered class?

    In all honesty, as annoying as it was having permastealth deadeyes one shot you from stealth - I would rather see the mode return to how it was BEFORE marked revealed you at every corner of the map. Please look into this, especially now that the potential upcoming WvW changes will implement much more reveal around the board anyway.

    Before you go ahead you should realise deadeye spec got released way after sentry marks etc.

    But wasn't the detected debuff (the thing that reveals you after 2 seconds) added to marked at a later date post PoF? Not sure I only started playing may this year after 3 years exile.

  • Noodica.5428Noodica.5428 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Offair.2563 said:
    Before you go ahead you should realise deadeye spec got released way after sentry marks etc.

    Uhhh...... detected being added on to marked got added WAY after PoF - please for the love of god do research before trying to make somebody look like they don't know what they're talking about.

    edit: here you go champ - November 2018. Yeah.. clearly before deadeye was released am i right?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60248/game-update-notes-november-13-2018#latest

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

    That's not how game balance works.

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vavume.8065 said:
    Thief is now a sentry killing bot, I goto WvW to fight players, but these days I spend half my time killing sentry's just so I can fight in that area, I'm getting real tired of it.

    When i still played the game pre mounts and i played Thief i just killed the sentry but didn't capture it, can't cap it back if i don't cap it lol.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.

    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    No profession has to. The Mark isn't the dust cloud from Earth Keep, it's not the same as having reveal on your bar for 30 seconds or however long you're within Watchtower Territory. If you need more than 2 seconds of stealth every 5 seconds to defeat your opponent then you should re-evaluate how you are playing.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    Same reason why other classes are forced to fight a class that pops one shot at 1200 range that put 4 condis on you, vanishes, shows up 3s later to pop another shot, vanishes, repeat.

    Get rid of that and we can talk unfair, sure.

    So you're telling me you're quite content with said class being overpowered outside of marked area's? I doubt it. Instead you should be advocating that this class should be nerfed in order to ensure it is balanced around the entire map, and not simply balanced around sentries.

    But again subjective. As annoying as a condi poison DE is, I still find other classes far more dangerous. Usually classes that don't need stealth and are sustain gods. But again subjective.

    Also I have one class for you. Boon Holosmith with lockon trait.

    I'm fine with it. I dont find thieves in general that strong.

    They make a nice bonfire when they run away on fire.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • @Anput.4620 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

    That's not how game balance works.

    Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Your build is right up there with the cheesiest stealth builds you can find. Forgive me If i have trouble seeing past the hypocrisy of a tanky mirage condi spamming mesmer calling out stealth builds.

    Hope you're not a thief calling out mesmers on cheese, cause tanky 12 boon, or poison dumping thieves still exist. In fact gave the poison dump deadeye a spin the other week to see how it works, oh boy.

    Let me make it clearer for you, I use infinite horizon with double staff, I don't even use the cheese lockdown mesmer builds, I refuse to play those builds even if they're more powerful than my build(they've been getting nerfed every patch, whole lot less mesmers in the field now if you didn't notice), I have fun with my current builds. I can kill just about every spec, there's still a couple of well played rev builds, broken warriors(mobile hard to kill hit like a truck), broken soulbeast(more stealth than mesmers knockdown spam) that are hard to beat, but I can at least hand back some condi cheese(arcane thievery is so nice sending kitten back the other way sometimes) to the offenders and don't even have to rely on stealth other than for quick stomps or disengage. But I reserve that cheese for the cheesiest of specs, like if thieves are around to harass me, otherwise I'm usually on my power sword version of the spec.

    I will continue to call out those broken op things in game and maybe one day in the far distant future(it's anet we're dealing with here afterall) they'll get the nerf they deserve, even those of my own class because I want the health of combat for the game to be good overall. Until then I'll be on my favorite class, because I shouldn't be forced to play a holo soulbeast warrior to take on the cheesers.

    Lastly, stealth traps can also hamper your stealth in environments anywhere, you still have to deal with those. if you can't survive in an area without stealth, don't fight in that area, it's not like thieves lack mobility tools. Just like say if you can't survive in the middle of a zerg fight, don't be in the middle of the zerg fight. It's pretty simple.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.

    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    No profession has to. The Mark isn't the dust cloud from Earth Keep, it's not the same as having reveal on your bar for 30 seconds or however long you're within Watchtower Territory. If you need more than 2 seconds of stealth every 5 seconds to defeat your opponent then you should re-evaluate how you are playing.

    If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    Same reason why other classes are forced to fight a class that pops one shot at 1200 range that put 4 condis on you, vanishes, shows up 3s later to pop another shot, vanishes, repeat.

    Get rid of that and we can talk unfair, sure.

    So you're telling me you're quite content with said class being overpowered outside of marked area's? I doubt it. Instead you should be advocating that this class should be nerfed in order to ensure it is balanced around the entire map, and not simply balanced around sentries.

    But again subjective. As annoying as a condi poison DE is, I still find other classes far more dangerous. Usually classes that don't need stealth and are sustain gods. But again subjective.

    Also I have one class for you. Boon Holosmith with lockon trait.

    I'm fine with it. I dont find thieves in general that strong.

    They make a nice bonfire when they run away on fire.

    Then if they're so weak why should they be further singled out with marked?

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

    That's not how game balance works.

    Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

    Its simple strive for even balance across all classes across all maps.

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Your build is right up there with the cheesiest stealth builds you can find. Forgive me If i have trouble seeing past the hypocrisy of a tanky mirage condi spamming mesmer calling out stealth builds.

    Hope you're not a thief calling out mesmers on cheese, cause tanky 12 boon, or poison dumping thieves still exist. In fact gave the poison dump deadeye a spin the other week to see how it works, oh boy.

    Let me make it clearer for you, I use infinite horizon with double staff, I don't even use the cheese lockdown mesmer builds, I refuse to play those builds even if they're more powerful than my build(they've been getting nerfed every patch, whole lot less mesmers in the field now if you didn't notice), I have fun with my current builds. I can kill just about every spec, there's still a couple of well played rev builds, broken warriors(mobile hard to kill hit like a truck), broken soulbeast(more stealth than mesmers knockdown spam) that are hard to beat, but I can at least hand back some condi cheese(arcane thievery is so nice sending kitten back the other way sometimes) to the offenders and don't even have to rely on stealth other than for quick stomps or disengage. But I reserve that cheese for the cheesiest of specs, like if thieves are around to harass me, otherwise I'm usually on my power sword version of the spec.

    I will continue to call out those broken op things in game and maybe one day in the far distant future(it's anet we're dealing with here afterall) they'll get the nerf they deserve, even those of my own class because I want the health of combat for the game to be good overall. Until then I'll be on my favorite class, because I shouldn't be forced to play a holo soulbeast warrior to take on the cheesers.

    Lastly, stealth traps can also hamper your stealth in environments anywhere, you still have to deal with those. if you can't survive in an area without stealth, don't fight in that area, it's not like thieves lack mobility tools. Just like say if you can't survive in the middle of a zerg fight, don't be in the middle of the zerg fight. It's pretty simple.

    I'm 100% with you on nerfing broken builds. The poison spamming DE is cheese 100% and one of the most easy no skill builds out there (although If I'm being totally honest I think most condi builds are pretty cheese but thats my view and I'm certainly not calling for nerfs). I also agree that many classes/builds have access to stealth that shouldn't. All im saying is that the way to deal with these builds is not with marked. I am not content with some of these builds in the state they are in presently. But adding a function like marked to WvW (as it works presently) is not the solution in my view. We should instead focus on balancing these classes individually, rather than adding a blanket mechanic that singles out classes/builds that people seem fond of pointing out, are not that strong.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:
    Your build is right up there with the cheesiest stealth builds you can find. Forgive me If i have trouble seeing past the hypocrisy of a tanky mirage condi spamming mesmer calling out stealth builds.

    Let me make it clearer for you, I use infinite horizon with double staff, I don't even use the cheese lockdown mesmer builds, I refuse to play those builds even if they're more powerful than my build...

    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Doug.4930 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Don't roam fight around a watch tower, there's plenty of other real estate on the map.

    Why? Why should a certain class be forced to do this? Other classes don't need to avoid certain area's of the map like the plague.

    No profession has to. The Mark isn't the dust cloud from Earth Keep, it's not the same as having reveal on your bar for 30 seconds or however long you're within Watchtower Territory. If you need more than 2 seconds of stealth every 5 seconds to defeat your opponent then you should re-evaluate how you are playing.

    If a player is dying to a thief build that relies on stealth to both survive and do damage, then that player is very inexperienced. Against any competent player the thief loses every time. If you're finding success, then I congratulate you on fighting new players as 1v1's for a thief in the current climate can be quite challenging when they're not marked.

    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 10, 2019

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Your reply was not related to what I said in literally any way. Did you mean to quote someone else?

    No? You were implying that thieves don't need to avoid marked area's like the plague. Implying that a thief can win fights while marked correct? I was saying that against a competent player this simply not true. Against any skilled player the thief will lose while marked every time. Wasn't that what you were saying? Or is my 2am brain having a meltdown?

    EDIT: I mean on stealth thief builds. On condi DD or S/D acro builds I'm sure marked matters very little.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone calling for stealth to be taken out of the game is stupid and should find an easier game for themselves, if there are any easier. I wouldn't mind at all if I had to toggle out of stealth before activating any damage skill as long as there were some duration buff for toggling out that was strong enough to make up for appeasing lazy players who will still cry about it for some reason. Anet could further make up for nerfing stealth by adding more passive mitigation and shadowstep/ports, have fun with that.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Infinite Horizon double staff is almost as "cheesy" as it gets. Perhaps not more than some other condi Mirage builds, but certainly more so than any other non-mesmer build. Infinite Horizon in general was the second most ridiculous thing that made (and makes) condi Mirages incredibly overtuned and brainless. Never understood why people complained about Elusive Mind over IH, when IH was (and still is) clearly the problem.

    Shrug
    I've had to deal with so much cheese in 7 years on my power spec, I really don't care at his point how much I cheese the opponents back, cause they really don't care either, no point in that being a one way street. Condi mesmer ain't the only thing broken in this game, a lot of other stuff fly under the radar, but the combination of dealing with conditions and clones makes people cry to the heavens.

    Also, they so broken, there's a lot of them in wvw these days huh... oh wait.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Noodica.5428 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What if they looked into it already and decided more reveal was needed on top of what Marked does?

    Wouldn't be anything new or surprising, would just be more from them killing the game mode for even more of the community.

    I don't see the problem with catering to the majority of players. Can you explain?

    That's not how game balance works.

    Ok, explain how balance works for a casual theme park style MMO game then.

    Balance is there to achieve equal viability and strenght between different builds in specific situations.

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