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Let's Talk About WvW Balance

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  • @Sarrs.4831 said:
    So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion but
    Why is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

    Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

    try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

  • Jables.4659Jables.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sarrs.4831 said:
    So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion but
    Why is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

    Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

    Unfortunately Anet has been doing their best up until now to make pof specs better than HoT specs across the board. There's a few cases where HoT specs are still more popular, but that has more to do with the new PoF versions being so terribly unfun to play than actually being worse (deadeye, firebrand)

  • @Sarrs.4831 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

    This is a WvW balance discussion. We can talk about Scourge in other areas in other threads. Let's please keep the thread focused

    i would.. but there isnt lets talk about PVE balance because apparently the game company decided PVE isnt important.
    i main Scourge and with last patch i watched Scourge becoming an only WvW vailble . now you ask it nerfed in WvW which is only mode Scourge is still used.
    so i gotta stand up and say nope.. not unless /untill they fix it in other game modes. you are now asking my class being removed from the game ..

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I believe you should play wvw extensively and see for yourself what the classes can do, how they synergize, what is broken and needs fixing. Latest scourge rework, for instance, had the opposite effect (it was a buff). Otherwise, this thread will simply become another "nerf every class but my own!", as it already has started to become.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sarrs.4831 said:
    So I don't do much big group PvP and I don't really have much to add to that discussion but
    Why is Reaper, which is supposed to be excellent in group fights with its Shouts, melee-oriented shroud and cleaving greatsword, outclassed in melee by Scourge, which are supposed to be ranged area denial?

    Someone said earlier that Scourge does too much. It absolutely does. I don't mind it throwing out a Shade and crapping all over a group, that's its shtick, but it seems to do just about everything better than a Reaper when a Reaper should imo be a big scary pusher.

    some players know how to do it.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Hi Cal, firstly thanks for the communication and effort to engage with your community.

    Short term - I'm taking this to mean ~3 months from now:
    Don't focus too much on profession / trait / skill changes. Address power creep quickly in as many forms as possible e.g. T7 food is OP, guild buffs, 10 target anything - damage, heals, corrupts, cleanses etc. In other words, any quick tactical changes to hit both offensive and defensive power creep and assess what impact that has.

    Long term - I'm taking this to mean 6-12 months from now.
    What is the vision for WvW combat and what are the principles that enable this vision? Until you define this, we will all have differing views and feedback on how to achieve balance. We need to think about this before we can talk about specific professions / trait / skill changes.

    Examples:
    1. A group of players is more than the sum of its parts. E.g. 1xHeal + 1xSupport + 1xDamage > 3xDamage.
    2. Builds should have roles with trade offs. E.g. a build that can give 5 people offensive support such as 25 might and fury should not be able to provide any significant defensive support such as OP cleansing, stability, protection, regen etc. There is a risk that this approach may simplify some builds, but it's a risk worth taking imo.
    3. Reward active and co-ordinated play. E.g. movement/positioning should matter, timed use of skills should matter, combo fields should matter. OP damage/control/support should only be possible with co-ordinated effort. E.g. Most powerful heal should only be possible via blasting water fields or a heal skill/trait where two players timing heal skills together at the same time triggers an additional heal bonus.

    I don't think any of the above are that innovative or controversial, in fact they are likely already principles that you consider in current balancing. I'm not even sure you should be overly consultative on these, but if we are all clear and reminded of things like this, we can have a more effective conversation about specific changes.

  • @Char.4209 said:
    Giving a tempest shout groupstability (like on aftershock) would make it another good competitor for the support position.

    Interesting. That would make heal tempest meta if not completely overpowered, considering how much healing this class can put out.

  • L A T I O N.8923L A T I O N.8923 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Plz get rid of silly support classes and make field combo's more reliant as in pre-hot meta's.

    Secondly plz dont make defensive stats compeletely immune to damage (like endure pain 90% damage reduction instead of 100%) Dont add invulns to weapon skills (evades, multiple blocks etc.)

    Thirdly make food for Just wvw. Some food (40% endurence increase) is Just super inbalanced for some classes relying heavily on evade frames (mirage, thief, war)

    Forthly: get rid of unblockable traits...some skills which are really easy to land are unblockable cc's while others are not easy to land. And Let block be a more active gameplay

    Fifth: there's An option on which you can turn off your max range on skillcasting and your character Will automaticly move maxed range of the skills...for classes like mirage/thief this is a cheap way to disengage even easier and for simpele circle classes (scourge and Hammer rev) its a cheap ticket to even easier cast skills (while aoe allready is dominant compared to close or single targetted skill)

    Sixth: the rewards for winning a 5v15 is basicly the same as winning 15v15 Both in direct confrontation as capping a tower.

    Seventh: downstate is a laugh now because
    1. of the warclaw stomp
    (Example 5v5 occurs, both get a down and a random players hops in and decided the fight in an instant with no counterplay (4v6 on equal level is hard to win especially if one of the 6 is off cooldown)
    2. Overtuned skills to clear downstate...mi can instantly bring up a dude with 17k base health. Gaisar in rezzing 2 seconds
    Those 2 examples only help to favor the bigger group

    Eight plz no silly pulls..spectral grasp follows you on a wall...and can pull you wierd directions..gs pull on necro as well
    The t1-3 pull of firebrand and mesmer focuspull are Just Wierd (and encourages single target on groupl play

    Ninth: try to encourage small group play...not Just either 50v50 or 1v1...i might know how but that's for another time

    Tenth: make specs like stealth a trade off...moving slower or give classes more reveal. For instance guard has 2 reveals and they Both on DH, one requires a target and the other is on 40s cooldown and is a trap...other classes have IT even worse

  • Your better balance initiative is doomed to fail unless you admit WvW and PvP combat are fundamentally different, and therefore MUST have separate balance teams (who can consult of course, but need to utilise autonomy and split states).

    Otherwise you only have 3 bad outcomes:
    1. deference to PvP balance makes WvW combat bad.
    2. deference to WvW balance makes PvP combat bad.
    3. trying to do half n half makes both WvW and PvP combat bad.

  • miguelsil.6324miguelsil.6324 Member ✭✭✭

    So far most of the comments CAl are about STEALTH, BURST DAMAGE, BOONS AND CORRUPTION, DAMAGE WHILE AVOIDING DAMAGE.

    Seems pretty obvious the first balance update to have most people satisfied and faith restored in the balance team.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Just my opinion:
    Game mechanisms:

    • Barrier: Barrier as a mechanism work to well in environments where you can have a lot of barrier sources. It's not much a matter of whether or not the barrier given is to high or not, the way barrier work, you'll just want to more source of it in order to cap barrier on all players. If we want to see zergs being more open to class diversity, this mechanism need some rework.
    • Area denial: This is already an old concern, but it is a resilient one as well. To much damage is packed into area denial skill and range skills, it's to the point that single target skills and melee had to be packed with an offending amont of powercreep. There is a need to rethink area denial into more of a physical blockade (body block) than into a an area that deal so much damage that you don't want to cross it.
    • Stealth: Stealth in itself isn't bad, high damage opening strike via stealth is. I doubt anybody would mind fighting against stealthy profession if it weren't for the fact that some of those profession can burst you to death before you can even realize that you're under attack.
    • Boons & conditions: They are to easy to stack. It has become to easy to selfbuff and, in general, support professions don't lose enough for their ability to support. The same goes for conditions, they are so spammable that in the end the concept of slow ramp up disappear to create this condi burst abomination.
    • Boon hate: Please, favor boon ripping over boon corruption. Boon corruption should be a very tactical ability difficult to access while boon ripping should be the main way to deal with boon. Nowadays, it's the opposite and that's a source of concern and problem in WvW.

    WvW polishing:

    • Siege weapon: Restrict the number of siege weapon that can be created in an area. Make it so that you need a minimum distance of 600-900 between 2 allied siege weapons. This is to slow down a bit the speed at which objectives change hands and thus leave some room for defending (because if there are some defenders, there is a fight, not just some mindless karma train).
    • Reward tracks: Add tiers to the reward tracks based on the number of objectives controlled by your world in order to make defending a bit more rewarding. The objectives start to count for the reward track tier after being controled for half an hour straight.
  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm sure I will be repeating some stuff, but here are my opinions anyways. I won't discuss what I'm posting, since this is just what I think and for anet to collect data on player opinions.

    Stability:
    A small suggestion i have is to spread shareable stability to different support classes such as ranger/druid, engi/scrapper (current one is not good as main stab.), ele/tempest so we can make use of more than just a firebrand. The lack of firebrand in our server is due to the fact that firebrand isn't fun for everyone. Other people prefer to play scapper or tempest as support, so it would be helpful if those classes can also be main stability spreader. Druid as a forth option is to finally make them zerg friendly so people don't instant deny them.

    Retailation:
    Rework this one entirely. Some classes such as eles or even holos does a lot of fast damage ticks. All these damage ticks will return to the caster no matter where they are. It's fairly broken and receiving damage can be as high as 9k per second. I literally die in two ticks if I drop my full bomb on a stacking zerg. Sometimes even from 100% life to full death if I hit a lot and all of them have retail.

    Stealth:
    This one needs to be addressed. If this stays strong like now, then make them less available. Veil is the prime example of how stealth should be shared: Short, shareable, but with long CD and requires a bit of coordination with the commander. Everything else is overkill. Stealth should not be stacked with combo fields, similar to why invuls are not stackable with combo fields. Also lower all damage that comes straight from stealth by x % as a 2 second debuff after exiting stealth (this also counts for the first strike). For both zergs and roaming, a stealth bomb can easily kill the other party without effort. Reducing the damage from stealth will give the other party a fighting chance,thus longer and better quality fights.

    Boons in general:
    Similar to blade and soul, you can make each class or build a specialist in a single boon. On top of it, make it shareable for 10 people, so people can start creating groups of 10 instead of 5. This adds a bit more of build plays and rewards organized groups. For example, if I choose weaver, I can share might with the others, If I choose tempest, I can share stability. If I go for herald, I can share fury etc.

    Corrupt+damage:
    Needs to be either tuned down, or make corrupting skills less power efficient. Currently, it does too much damage on top of the corruption it offers. Or reduce it to 5 targets, because I don't get why necro is the only one that can target 10 people. The original 5 target was already deadly, now the 10 target is just plain overkill. I've seen squads that constists of more than 50% necros, which is insane.

    Projectiles:
    Make all "projectile reflect", absorb instead. Decrease the aborption rate by 50%, so half of the projectile will still go through or hit another absorption barrier. That way, zergs can still be safe from projectiles, but requires twice the amount of shields.

    Damage vs defense vs healing:
    Currently, it's either receiving deadly damage or none. I would honest tune down all active defense that reduces damage by 100% to something like 80%. Dodge should be still 100% and cannot be tuned (regenerated) by bufffood or builds. Mirage's dodge should make all their damage to zero while their dodge lasts. Dodging damage should cut all the way down to warriors dodging damage trait. Daredevils dodge uptime is more than it's downtime, which is overkill.
    While all damage reduction will see a nerf, all damage should also be reduced. Might and power can be directly nerfed to cut down damage across the board.
    To prevent absolut bunker, also nerf all healing source to make it useful while also not unkillable.

    Offtopic: Increase squad size to 60. Get a better server, current lags are horrible even outside of EBG.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    So how about ANET decides what the TTK (Time to Kill) should be in WvW, under various situations, and start from there? Once you folks agree on a picture of what that looks like, you'll know right off what needs fixing.

    Otherwise you'll just be tossing out -25% to this or +15% to that and hope it works - which is what I've observed to be the case over the past 20 months I've spent in WvW, and which I'm sure many more seasoned players will confirm has been the case since at least PoF or even HoT.

    Thanks for the communication. :+1:

    This is very much what I was talking about for the long-term, and one of the things we want to gather feedback on through this discussion. It's less about the 25% or the 15% for any given skill and more about defining what the power level should be, then adjusting all skills and traits to fit into that paradigm.

    I made a post yesterday, with links related to TTK that I hope you can look at, prior to reading all of your comments, and now I just want to bring up some concerns based off of things that were discussed.

    I’m trying not to niggle over wording, because I know your posts were just kind of an opener, but I want the team to think about (if they already haven’t) this from a player perspective...

    • “Brining power levels down” could easily be interpreted by players as “the devs are going to nerf everything to the ground”. These feelings generally bring a ton of resentment and uproar.
    • When the game launched the difficulty levels across the game were super easy. It was basically, everyone load up zerker gear and destroy. HoT bumped the difficulty levels up, and along with it came stronger profession builds to match up. The goal of HoT profession improvements were to bring more role diversity to the game too, while dialing back the, as Irenio stated, “unhealthy berserker meta”.
    • So power levels have been higher over the course of HoT and PoF compared to the core game, and it’s what the game needed in ways to some degree.
    • Of all the game and profession changes we have had over the course of 7 years, there has been 1 constant... Profession Health. Power levels have gone way up, while profession Health numbers have stayed the same, thus lowering the potential average TTK inside wvw and spvp. This has generated a lot of anger and frustration.
    • I feel like there are players out there, myself included, that would welcome changes to make competitive gameplay more enjoyable. However, I feel there would definitely be backlash if the new direction ends up basically just nerfing “power levels” down without looking at what hasn’t been looked at, or touched, before... And that happens to be, as mentioned earlier, player HEALTH compared to that ever growing “power level”.
    • My original post quoted staff from Camelot Unchained about TTK, words from the Anet team and I’ve offered up some basic suggestions, but I hope the team will first look at improving Health numbers on professions before they decide to “bring power levels down”.
    • And I don’t know if you ever played City of Heroes, but the devs of that game went nerfing stuff inside pvp with the infamous “Issue 13” patch. Those changes basically “killed” zone and arena pvp in that game, and pvpers felt completely betrayed and screwed over. I know the Paragon team had good intentions, and couldn’t foresee the outcome of those changes, but nerfing things down isn’t always the right answer. Especially when other options and improvements may exist... So far team Anet hasn’t touched Health for the equation inside wvw and spvp, so my suggestion is to start improvements with that and work from there to tackle issues that arise.

      Ty for your time!

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    I think servers and such just be disbanded and remove everything except smc and just have one giant free for all and have a big giant pve chest with a gazillion gold in it and if anyone can get to it then win and then reset the game once that happens. Yep that solves everyone's problems.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    the X of problem is that WvW is a mode where u can stack 30 players, some mechanics like boons and condis is something that had -10 players in mind. probably the long term solution to wvw is a complete review of these mechanics just for wvw.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Offtopic: Increase squad size to 60.

    So uh... What exactly would be the point of this that a 50 man squad and a 10 man squad cant do, given boons/heals/etc is 5-10 targets?

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There seems to be a lot of calls to remove the damage one capable of in a single attack. That all well and good but can not happen in a vacuum. Out of the gate certain classes have 8000 more health than others. The professions with the lower health pool HAVE to spike more damage or they can never win a given matchup. This would then have to be addressed via more ways for that smaller health pool person to mitigate damage be it dodges/blocks invulns and stealth and this would be followed up with complaints they have too many dodges blocks invulns or stealth. The alternative is of course to normalize the health pool across the board.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

    even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

    and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

    heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

    so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

    now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

  • LadyHawk.5319LadyHawk.5319 Member ✭✭✭

    I just want support for the support classes. Equal pay ...err, equal rights ... err, um ... oh yeah! Equal XP, Pips, etc. Support your Support Classes ... because without them, well, y'all will die a lot more than you already do! =) We, the support class players (true support class players, not to be mixed up with dpsers who slot SYG :p ), get about half of the kills and, hence, half of the kill xp, pips, ranks, etc as dps. :s We only get what we get from things like retal, luck, attacks with our 1000 power level and 0% crit chance attacks. Yet, we are demanded to provide stability, cleanses, protection, might, everything that will aid our comrades in the fight to protect against and conquer evil! And we do so, willingly and with pride. Our comrades are grateful. =) Our enemies are hateful. Our developers are forgetful. They have forgotten to support the support classes. We. Are. Sad. :'(

  • yumee.1405yumee.1405 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    I really like what everyone said :D

    Basically, guildwars 2 is made like maya (player might not all know but I'm sure anet dev will) is, layer of adding feature that doesn't work together and adding even more layer to fix the issues the new features created instead of fixing the core of the problem.

    I personnally like conditions as control of the player more than burst damage. I mean confusion is supposed to make the opponent not attack you or he's getting punished, torment is don't move or get punished, rest are more obvious.
    But they became they too overpowered with the up of their damage and the fact you only need one statistique to damage against 3 for direct damage.

    You added more boons to counter those condis and then you added even more boon rip and boon conversion to counter the counter of condis. So we still had a condis problem. You then added some cleans and boon machine to counter the condis from the conversion of boon that were created to counter the condis.

    See as guys said before, how complicate it gets x)

    The fact you decided to have real roles also created some issue. Why would we use fields and combo if we have a class giving direct boons and direct heals? And a lot of them? So people stopped playing with combos cause it's easier to just have people do it directly by themself without communications.
    In the same line, the aoe spam got increased soooooo much than you can't even see the aoe you'd like to combo in anyway xD

    4 stats gears are an issue as well, you wanna gice too much. You didn't even fibished creating all the 3 stats combination possible before doing that :/ only 3 stats relevant nowadays is berserker and mostly in pve :(

    Same for the way traits works (I know you won't come.back on it but I still wanna say it). Before the spec systeme, we couldn't fill 3 full lines. We had to make choice! Not only wich line to take as right now but wich one we wanted full or what we needed to sacrifice to get that one interesting traits. I know some spec were broken at that time but would have been better to move those traits instead of giving us more traits but only 3 possible lines a the same time. For exemple, as ele, I was sacrifying a lot of my survivability becaude I love air traits. So I wasn't taking water or only the first traits. With the change, I didn't had to chose anymore!

    Another thing that has nothing to do this all this but feels like an issue to me and was actually something people asked for is ppk. It s really great to be rewarded for our kills but it's actually too strong and it cause 2 kind of problems:

    • «fighting people» doesn't give a mind at all at the structure anymore, or almost.
    • PPT people go hiding or stops fighting if they lost more than 2 fights in a row because they're actually losing points by dying.
    • No one are defending keeps to death until the ennemies gets bored anymore because again, they lose points to save a keep they could get back really fast if they just abandon and wait a 15 minutes that the ennemies go away.

    Most people doesn't give a mind about the match up, I agree with that, the only thibg I care is to get the server I wanna have in front of me next week. But it kinda broke the wvw to be really honest. Makes me sad, makes me leave the game mode, not to say the game at all.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

    even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

    and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

    heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

    so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

    now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

    See. Stuff like this actually pisses me off. You know why fights took hours? Because EWP was up every 3 minutes and the map was full of 80 people (Can literally see some 40 spawn from WP like 10 minutes into video in an actively contested keep). Not because damage was magically way lower (it was by maybe 10-15%) and TTK was way higher. There's multiple instances of pushes there insta dropping 5+ people if not more. Just like they do today when it is a giant blob v blob. Fights don't 'insta wipe' unless there is a serious number difference, and surprise, they insta wiped back then too! Demostrates a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    There’s to much of everything in low CD, wich creates the massive boonstacking, aoe spam and high damage builds with low risk gameplay... imo a good way to fix this would be shouts becomes shouts like they did on gw1 for example, they can or not have a boon associated with a direct affect and an icon would pop up saying wich shoutbisnafecting the ally, plus some classes ended having huge sustain and damage at same time while having strong cc.
    Note, equal shouts would not stack...would cancel the last one and apply the new one.
    This could be aplayed to several tiles of utilities.

    Iterate what needs to continue to exist as a boon or some direct effect, what needs to stay condition or made it become an hex or direct effect to target.

    In in terms of damage overall imo, if aoe + cleave skills could be reduced in quantity that would be great while maintaining similiar damage output.

    Imo I think the reintroduction of some team gameplay spells like we add on gw1 would balance out the damage gameplay like those that would not allow more than 40%health in one it, with the addition of reducing the spam/stack gameplay and make players that want damage not allowing to be tanks at the same time due their classes mechanics.
    Maybe transform some trait core into elite and add a new one, to balance out what’s makes some elite specs so Strong.

    Sorry the bad English :expressionless:

  • @GrahamW.5397 said:

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    I want to see Elementalist buffed. That's all.

    Ele is in a fine place right now, it has an excellent dps option and by excellent I mean its top dps when played well enough and a support option that provides good healing/boons and great utility that actively sees a lot of use. It can also roam and fight most things in small man and perform well. Really not sure why it would need to be buffed at all when it excels in every area of wvw right now.

    because it is only 'fine' if you ignore everything else.

  • thehipone.6812thehipone.6812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    Adjust the maximum might stacks from 25 to 20 in WvW/PvP. See how it goes. If still too oppressive, consider 15.

    Make a lot more stuff tactical, rather than permanently maintainable/passive. Things I'd toss in this boat: reflects, stability, quickness (IMO this is a huge culprit for power creep when it became a boon instead of an effect).

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

    even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

    and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

    heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

    so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

    now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

    See. Stuff like this actually pisses me off. You know why fights took hours? Because EWP was up every 3 minutes and the map was full of 80 people (Can literally see some 40 spawn from WP like 10 minutes into video in an actively contested keep). Not because damage was magically way lower (it was by maybe 10-15%) and TTK was way higher. There's multiple instances of pushes there insta dropping 5+ people if not more. Just like they do today when it is a giant blob v blob. Fights don't 'insta wipe' unless there is a serious number difference, and surprise, they insta wiped back then too! Demostrates a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues.

    Agreed
    And I'd like to add that 30 ptv guardians doing the old staff 1 was a fairly common Zerg tactic. Not the same as scourge aoe being attached to their ankles but just as corny... Though a clever player could maneuver inside the enemy group without being instantly obliterated by people who don't even know you're there.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Would it be better if the profession balance was decoupled from WvW by making specific Mastery build with special abilities that gives specific roles, like lets say you want to be frontline in a large battle and you take a traitline that gives Shield wall skill which in group becomes stronger and people turtle in, or a traitline that gives Comet skill that drops large aoe that people channel together, or a they summon a monster, or for a scout/ saboteur it gives them way to pillage resource from camps or dolyaks. Something like the PVE masteries which are stronger then professions own skills, since the current ones are little bit on the boring side.
    Also have you though about special objectives that people fight over, like a world boss where one group can take control over similar to Heroes of the Storm and at the same time the big team that holds lets say Stonemist can build a golem knight statue protector that can't leave the castle and we get kaiju fight of sorts.
    I know these are over the top but wouldn't a kaiju battle be cool for special event at least, also i think there is a way to implement since the Auric basin meta works in this manner.
    In a way WvW should probably have its own skills from masteries that are just for WvW, it worked for open world PVE didn't it, in that way there wouldn't be much need to touch and rebalance skills cause something was changed in PVE or sPVP and made it broken in WvW.

  • arenta.2953arenta.2953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @God.2708 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

    even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

    and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

    heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

    so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

    now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

    See. Stuff like this actually pisses me off. You know why fights took hours? Because EWP was up every 3 minutes and the map was full of 80 people (Can literally see some 40 spawn from WP like 10 minutes into video in an actively contested keep). Not because damage was magically way lower (it was by maybe 10-15%) and TTK was way higher. There's multiple instances of pushes there insta dropping 5+ people if not more. Just like they do today when it is a giant blob v blob. Fights don't 'insta wipe' unless there is a serious number difference, and surprise, they insta wiped back then too! Demostrates a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues.

    actually, you can see the same situation now. but the difference is scourge AoEs wipe out the other zerg so fast that there is no holding.

    zergs are wiped out faster an more fully now. so theres no regroup.

    go ahead, go check out SoS's fight with AR last night. outside garrison, on the bridge over the sentry.

    one zerg would be wiped out by AoE. and would reform. to go back. not regorup. reform entirely.

    fighting over the garrison itself? using the walls, cannons, mortars? nope. as it would be so one sided to the attacker.

    a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues? i've played WvW since launch. so what makes my experience "lacking understanding" and yours so right? huh?

    are you saying me playing WvW since launch has counted for nothing? that me running as commander tag for the first 2 YEARS of the game doesn't count for experiencing wvw?

    i've looked at my old livestreams, youtube videos.

    and compared it to now. your saying that none of that counts. that i lack understanding?

    so tell me, why is your opinion on whats wrong and right with WvW "right", and my opinion "a total lack of understanding"

    and btw, yes. dmg back then was way lower. why?

    well. AoE.

    single target hits of 10k dps. is 10k dps

    AoE hits of 8k dps on 5 enemies. is 40k dps

    the change from single/weapon swing arc dps. to wells, shades, and any AoE. has lead to an increase in dps. add to that the increased range of aoe. as its not longer how far your weapon swings.

    plus, condi ignoring armor. and alot of these AoE (scourge mainly) being condi focused. increases dps due to no dmg reduction from armor/toughness at all

    meteor and barrage were the only aoe range of note back then. guess what both of them use for dmg. not condi. so having max toughness reduced the dmg by ~33% from the original 2k armor to 3k. oh, and both can be blocked.(they not unblockable)

    and condi ignores that initial 2k armor. so dmg scales even more.

    how much condi cleanse do you have? cause pulses that apply more and more condi, will likely overcome it. and resistance, provided it isnt removed by a bubble. isnt long duration or a common boon. missing entirely on most.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scrapper
    Scrapper is still way too powerful. Not my opinion, but I think people have a serious problem with this class being able to kill other players. The intention of the previous balances was to turn Scrapper into a tank. However, the current situation promotes increased damage output, which is something Scrapper should not have. New Scrapper should be a trade-off power for sustain. What we have at the moment: power = sustain. Equipping Scrapper still grants access to damage-multipliers. If you play a power build, equipping Scrapper can significantly increase your damage output. Still horrible compared to any serious class out there, but it does.

    Scrapper TANK according to the balance team is barrier-spamming. As far as I noticed, you lack the proper data and features at the moment to adjust the barrier-output correctly. It generates acceptable results in PVE, if you fight the correct enemies (number & strength), but can be penetrated by every serious enemy in all game-modes with ease. Re-purpose object in motion into "Apply Protection to yourself, whenever you receive Superspeed" and get rid of the damage-multipliers. Or boost the barrier-generation while under the effect of Superspeed. That way you could enhance the survivability of the Scrapper, lower its already hated DPS and give Superspeed a proper purpose. Most of the stuff already exists, all we need is a little ... synergy.

    Impact Savant? Give us a fixed load of barrier per hit, which scales with our healing-power? So if we want to increase barrier output, we should use defensive stats - as intended for tanks.

    In addition, credo quod ArcDPS interdictum debere.
  • @anduriell.6280 said:
    Remove the stacking duration for any stealth.
    Deadeyes

    this is a horrible suggestion that would ruin team play. how about nerfing specific things that make the class op rather then something that effects everyone.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Excursion.9752Excursion.9752 Member ✭✭✭

    In my honest opinion true balance will never occur in this game because there are simply to many variables. Even if you take away letting people create their builds and have presets for players to select from there will always be a yin to a yang. Everything is situational. There is not a balance patch conceivable that will allow a 10 man havok group compete against a 50 man zerg.

    So I would focus on the following:
    Removing permanent/long stealth's and invulnerability.

    Reduce boons potency. I believe reducing the number of affected parties for a boon would have a negative effect on groups because it would encourage more commanders to demand specific classes forcing people to play classes that they may not want and make their experience less enjoyable. Just listen to the moans when you ask someone to switch to their firebrand.

    All cleave skills and AOE needs to max out at 5 targets.

    There should be some protection from constant boon ripping. If a player could only have "X" amount of boons ripped every "X" amount of seconds that may help. If this did happen then you would have to rethink about all traits that do extra damage to people with no boons. Because it would harder for people to get to that point.

    Make all specializations and classes viable and bring something truly unique to the table even core specs. Only something that they can do while on that spec. and it needs to be good an not like the elite specializations for races because those are lame and gimmicky. Make it something a zerg commander has to think for a minute if they can do without it or not. I was thinking along the lines of specialized counters. Example a Core Guard have the ability to burst the enemies teams Winds of Disenchantment or a Core Ele the ability to absorb sand shades. Things like that.

    I don't think we need to focus on breaking up the meta but making it so that you have so many options to pick from that you redefine the meta every night. There is so much focus on bringing classes down I say we lift the ones that are down up.

                                                              There is a 50% chance you will not agree with me and a 50% chance I will not agree with you
    
  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    I understand the frustration that comes from being super passionate about something and I don't hold it against anyone. As long as we keep it clean (no personal attacks, general forum rules apply, etc) good feedback can always be gathered.

    Thank you very much for finally addressing this pressing issue. I want this game to be great but after 7 years of what feels like neglect for the competitive modes I am actually considered quiting. The power levels are absolutely insane it's simply not fun to play but this post gives me at least a bit of hope. You wanted feedback, so here is some:

    Boons should be what there were originally designed for: temporal enhancements. Most boons today can have 100% uptime or at least too close to permanent. I think boons should never achieve this (at least not with 1 character and many classes can provide such things, stacking will always enable higher boon uptimes). It takes away the tactical aspects of the competitive modes. Why should you time anything when protection is nearly always up or you just push with tons of stability making CC meaningless. More boon strip isn't the answer, that is something we should know by now. If boons are temporal enhancements again you can adjust boon strip accordingly.

    Damage, now that is a tricky topic but I say look at the base health. Do we really need skills (often on short cooldowns) hitting for 10k when base health is not even 20k for any class? I don't think so. Sure equipment can make a huge difference but in WvW you can easily have 50 players using such skills all at once, what difference does equipment make than? Not that much. You just get insta deleted which is no fun and in the case of a new player that one might never get back into the game mode. I think damage has to be more evenly distributed among skills. No "I press skill number 3 and hit for 10k dmg". Burst should still be possible, it is even very important to not let bunker builds run rampant. But achieving high damage should be more complex than pressing 2 buttons and incidentally deleting 2 people which you haven't even targeted in the first place. This alone could raise TTK a bit.

  • @hunkamania.7561 said:
    You can listen to as many people as you want but at the end of the day you need to have a understanding and grasp of the game mode yourself. We need someone in charge that knows what's going or is willing to put in the time to figure out what's right and wrong with wvw. There's a few fight commanders and players you should listen to (past and present) and that's it.

    Time Will Tell but to be fair
    He's here now to ask this
    So there's a start

  • Kind of a crazy idea but what if everyone got a breaker bar? Stability could then heal your breaker bar if it was chucked down. CC skills could then be balanced around everyone having one and it could also be a “trade off” for more powerful classes such as Holo (ie pick Holo and you get ½ sized bar).

    Other random thoughts, I also like the idea of might capping at 15 or 20 a stack. If a skill shares a boon it should be on a longer cd. Skills should only do one thing; they shouldn’t damage and then apply a condition and then provide a boon all in one go.

    Maybe a little off topic, but in order to give the meta more diversity, create thematic class roles outside regular combat roles as well. Such as engineer kits do more damage to walls and gates (demolition experts). Guardians could heal lords or supervisors for more during combat while defending. Mesmers could create zerg illusions making your numbers look larger from a distance. Thieves could steal supply from enemy camps. Rangers could tame local wildlife to attack enemies. Eles could call forth a fog of war making the battlefield harder to see. After a battle Necros could summon the bones of the fallen to create stationary allies for the next battle. Revenants could call legends of the mists to provide blessings for buildings or lords. Warriors could train non-lord npcs to be more effective in battle. Something cool, useful, and unique to foster roles and comp diversity.

    Thanks for taking the time to stop by, communication is always appreciated.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @God.2708 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @arenta.2953 said:
    2. walls in WvW are NOT valuable to the defender. due to the range and damage of aoe spam, going on the wall is death. the only value a wall provides is slowing the enemy to give you time to get to the structure. compare this to when game came out, where AoE was alot lower dmg wise, and the only concern you had for being on wall was a scorpion wire. back then walls provided defenders with an advantage of seeing the enemy, longer range(bows), and able to back out at any time. making walls have a use to the defender would be nice for actually using them.

    So what, the zerker necro staff did not exist on release? Not to mention you could barely be near walls due to certain pre-balance arrowcarts.

    Walls have a use and you stated it perfectly - its there to delay the enemy. Its there so that scouts can call out and so that players can arrive and fight each other. This is the core gameplay of WvW. When you try to hinder that... Well we already know what happens, because it DID happen. It slows WvW to a crawl and it forced Anet to rebalance siege costs and objective strength just to keep the gameplay going. If anything siege is still lacking, such as trebs being to costly in supply for their damage and rate of fire compared to catapults.

    This thread really makes me fear for the future of WvW but I guess it cant get much worse.

    are you really comparing zerker staff, to scourge? thats like comparing a nerf gun to an actual gun in terms of dmg.

    even if we ignore the massive dmg difference, staff marks pop on contact, and don't have pulses. so first person to go in gets hit, but no one behind them does. compare that to scourge. Even with wells, zerker staff is of no note compared to condi scourge.

    and how often did attackers build arrow carts, defenders did, an they still do. cause you can't exactly go to the edge of a wall now without being nuked.

    heres a video, showing how much less AoE spam there was, as back then the only stuff you worried about 1 shotting you was a backstab from a thief. aka positioning.

    so you'd have alot more single target skills. and defenders could actually last a while. sieges like this could actually take hours as both sides fought. rather than the absurd scourge zerg wiping you see now.

    now, aoe spam can wipe out entire zergs. less skill more spam.....

    See. Stuff like this actually pisses me off. You know why fights took hours? Because EWP was up every 3 minutes and the map was full of 80 people (Can literally see some 40 spawn from WP like 10 minutes into video in an actively contested keep). Not because damage was magically way lower (it was by maybe 10-15%) and TTK was way higher. There's multiple instances of pushes there insta dropping 5+ people if not more. Just like they do today when it is a giant blob v blob. Fights don't 'insta wipe' unless there is a serious number difference, and surprise, they insta wiped back then too! Demostrates a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues.

    actually, you can see the same situation now. but the difference is scourge AoEs wipe out the other zerg so fast that there is no holding.

    zergs are wiped out faster an more fully now. so theres no regroup.

    go ahead, go check out SoS's fight with AR last night. outside garrison, on the bridge over the sentry.

    one zerg would be wiped out by AoE. and would reform. to go back. not regorup. reform entirely.

    fighting over the garrison itself? using the walls, cannons, mortars? nope. as it would be so one sided to the attacker.

    a total lack of understanding of WvW history and its issues? i've played WvW since launch. so what makes my experience "lacking understanding" and yours so right? huh?

    are you saying me playing WvW since launch has counted for nothing? that me running as commander tag for the first 2 YEARS of the game doesn't count for experiencing wvw?

    i've looked at my old livestreams, youtube videos.

    and compared it to now. your saying that none of that counts. that i lack understanding?

    so tell me, why is your opinion on whats wrong and right with WvW "right", and my opinion "a total lack of understanding"

    and btw, yes. dmg back then was way lower. why?

    well. AoE.

    single target hits of 10k dps. is 10k dps

    AoE hits of 8k dps on 5 enemies. is 40k dps

    the change from single/weapon swing arc dps. to wells, shades, and any AoE. has lead to an increase in dps. add to that the increased range of aoe. as its not longer how far your weapon swings.

    plus, condi ignoring armor. and alot of these AoE (scourge mainly) being condi focused. increases dps due to no dmg reduction from armor/toughness at all

    meteor and barrage were the only aoe range of note back then. guess what both of them use for dmg. not condi. so having max toughness reduced the dmg by ~33% from the original 2k armor to 3k. oh, and both can be blocked.(they not unblockable)

    and condi ignores that initial 2k armor. so dmg scales even more.

    how much condi cleanse do you have? cause pulses that apply more and more condi, will likely overcome it. and resistance, provided it isnt removed by a bubble. isnt long duration or a common boon. missing entirely on most.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wave_of_Wrath
    So what's this kitten about things back then being single target? Wells. Meteor Showers. Lava Font. Hammer Trains. You're also forgetting about the one person dying would rally an entire group back then. That seriously dragged fights out. (Unless there was a large number differential then the smaller group couldn't ever finish the larger one.) I say you don't understand WvW because you are actively pretending a huge portion of the game never existed and are completely missing the mark on why things were the way they were. Not to say scourges hitting 10 targets isn't power creep. You can definitely kill more players at a time now, but it isn't nearly as excessive of a difference you are making it out to be, and you are pinning rose tinted dreams (hour long keep fights) on totally the wrong things (it was the fact you could waypoint every 3 minutes, not damage being drastically lower).

    And I'm glad you brought up AR vs SoS. I was there! ARs side following SF. We had ~30 people to SoS's ~45. Number differentials. I addressed that. Even with that all of those fights had multiple strikes and regroups, I have a couple of them recorded. They weren't of the same form, but that's to be expected because the reason for them is gone.

    Pre-HoT groups would run around in all soldiers frontlines with semi-tanky backlines because healing was generally lacking except in the form of coordinated blasts. When dedicated healers were introduced it allowed the backlines to get glassier and glassier, which eventually outpaced the natural defenses of the frontline (made worse by the stab change), and so pirateship was born. HoT shifted this back towards melee slowly via damage reduction and nerfs on problem skills (baby gates) until condi took a huge hold and fights became giant toilet bowls of reapers shouting. PoF threw a wrench into everything because now your strongest melee DPS was also your strongest ranged DPS. Only remotely held at bay by firebrands performing every support role possible. This is definite power creep. I agree. It has been toned down drastically and basically the only thing that remains is FBs healing being a bit to high, which is countered by the fact scourges still hit to many targets. You get rid of those two things and fights will 'last' in a very similar manner to back then when WPs or Rallywars weren't involved.

    I mean honestly. If you look at fights now compared to back then they are near identical. There is simply more to them. Scourges have shade bombs on top of their usual kit, and can support while doing it. Warriors have boon strip/winds on top of their usual kit and get to be glassier. Guardians have tomes on top of their usual kit and gained the ability to heal. Engineers actually get to get used in a zerg. That is power creep, yes, but it's evenly spread power creep. A general slow nerf would help, but realistically that means the issue is getting rid of entire abilities because it's not that they deal to much damage or support to much, but that they have more abilities to use. If your only goal is 'longer fights' just give everyone a +750 vitality increase when they enter WvW. Problem solved with 1/100th of the work.

  • Grim West.3194Grim West.3194 Member ✭✭✭

    Just want to thank the devs for communicating on this issue. I would encourage you to also give us updates on alliances.

  • SoV.5139SoV.5139 Member ✭✭✭

    One major issue in competitive modes is the allowance of over performing mitigation of a weakness gained through a trade off. The armor balance is good where if I want max strike damage I need to go berserker, however, if I want more mitigation/recovery/health, I need to trade some DPS for that. THe issue happens with specific professions/builds where I can be as tanky or even more tanky than max toughness armor specs simply by rotating protects and invulns. This negates the weakness aspect of going max DPS (negates the "min" in "min-maxing, so it becomes more like max-maxing)

    My suggestion would be to disallow any invuln which lets the player attack. Im fine with invulns like elementalist and engineer have, which disallow any action other than movement, but the ones some other specs have let you attack when they are up - allowing the player to build for max DPS and have a 12 second invuln + ~20 second protection window to inflict max strike damage while not having to deal with the negatives of playing a max DPS build.

    Power strike damage was buffed when players asked for more "high risk high reward" build possibilities. This over performing mitigation issue negates the "high risk" portion of that build. Minimizing the risk of counterplay through the push of one button and through passives, has resulted in some of the highest strike damage builds having some of the lowest skill floors.

  • SoV.5139SoV.5139 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Sarrs.4831 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    try play Scourge in any other mode that isnt WvW Scourge right now after last patch is completely useless and trash in all game modes and content aside from WvW where they failed to nerf him and made him even more broken. dont get it wrong tho. i agree Scourge is broken on wvw along with some other classes. but idk why they would only focus on balancing wvw now and pvp.. if Scourge is nerfed on WvW (which it should be) im asking it balanced and buffed in the PVE to be atlkeast use in some mode..

    This is a WvW balance discussion. We can talk about Scourge in other areas in other threads. Let's please keep the thread focused

    i would.. but there isnt lets talk about PVE balance because apparently the game company decided PVE isnt important.
    i main Scourge and with last patch i watched Scourge becoming an only WvW vailble . now you ask it nerfed in WvW which is only mode Scourge is still used.
    so i gotta stand up and say nope.. not unless /untill they fix it in other game modes. you are now asking my class being removed from the game ..

    They decided PVE isnt important? Ironic, as historically in WvW threads the majority of the moaning is too many changes made for PVE disregarding how it affects the competitive modes.

  • Mikali.9651Mikali.9651 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2019

    okay, you got lots of feedback, and from the players that understand current issues more than me. I stopped playing WvW shortly after the PoF release because it was just unbearable to me.
    I am a player since the beta release, and back in Vanilla days, WvW was just so much more tactful. Fights lasted longer, stability was something we had to time in the right moment - if we didn't time it right, the probability of our squad losing the encounter was high. When I played in the WvW guild as a Guardian, and when I didn't use stability in time, they knew it - and that was a good feeling because I personally felt that I was important - my play, my skill, my gamesense.
    The same thing was about placing water fields in the correct place and then blasting it as a way to sustain throughout the fight.
    Mesmers using portals and veils as a way to bait opposing team's static fields etc.

    The game had more clarity, and we were more dependent on each other.
    I am all about making ranger, thieves, and mesmers into professions that have more impact and are useful in zerg vs. zerg scenarios.
    But some things now are just...too much.

    Guild Wars 2 is the only game that I've ever played that has such an easy way to gain 100% or very close to X resource. Critical chance, boon uptime, condition uptime. And also, the game with insanely low cooldowns on impactful skills.
    Guild Wars 2 has too many ways to avoid the damage - dodge, as it is, is already very strong, but combined with defensive boons and evades on skills it is even stronger - and frankly, it became just too frustrating to play against.
    Guild Wars 2 is Wonder. Because it is so much broken game and yet people are still playing both WvW and PvP. The trait system, as we have it, is the number one reason. It is filled with % dmg or defense increases. That is not how it should have been. The trait system should have altered the way your professions was played, but not just make it stronger and stronger. And yet, there are also might boon and vulnerability to even further buff damage output.
    Another thing which makes it all even worse is cleave. Everything cleaves. Skills can hit up to 10 players, and almost always hit 5, rarely 3 or 1. The same thing is with boons which buff basically the whole squad with just a few players.

    Guild Wars 2 would have been perfect if skills didn't have such a cleave. 80% of skills to affect 1-3 players, 20% to affect 3+ it should have been, but as it is now it is more like 10% and 90% scenario which is just crazy.
    That argument of before which said that cleaving (or AoE) is better to have because then a small number of players have a chance to win against a higher number of opposite players does not hold water to me. Not in the current state of the game.
    More damage = more need for defense = more need to penetrate that defense = everything is overbuffed = skill spam becomes the king - or, the shorter cooldown is the way to win = game becomes horrible spam without any finesse and you yourself do not even matter at that point.

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

    It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

    With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

    I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

    cmc

    the MAIN problem in WvW is the fact that some builds are completely game breaking such as rangers with the ability to stack boons and become unkillable and bunker builds that are focused on having near infinite regen with no real way to kill them unless you bring multiple people and sometimes they still escape. i feel like the POWER stat isn't the issue, it's the boons.

  • I greatly appreciate the renewed focus on balance and communication. That's great news!

    Sadly, in the last year, I have felt so much disappointment and dissolution over the state of WvW, that I just can't bring myself to play anymore. Here's a few reasons why I quit playing WvW after many many years (since late 2013):

    1. Blobbing is an epidemic. Large scale fights have become about who can blob better, and thus annihilate the enemy faster. They've lost the feeling of early WvW where it was a large group vs large group, fighting a wonderful battle for an objective, over more than just a few minutes. By blobbing I don't mean zerging. I mean how boon and combo mechanics forced commanders to require people to "stack on me" and push forward as one blob. As condi bombs and aoe power bombs grew in strength and popularity, we have arrived at today -- where whoever can blob and bomb a single location the fastest and best, wins. There is NO competition. No fight. It's steamrolling at it's finest. And the worst form of zerging I have ever seen in a game.
    2. As the blobbing "meta" has grown, the needs of the smaller roaming and havoc groups seem to have either been forgotten or ignored. Or maybe developers just don't know how to include them in this mode. (My primary play style). It's NO FUN to cap a camp with 5 people and suddenly be steamrolled by a blob.
    3. Conditions were best when they were icing on the cake -- not the whole meal. That said, some condition builds have been super fun to play. But only because there is NO way anyone could ever have enough clear to make a fight last more than a few seconds. I remember back to my 30k in 10 sec burn engineer build of a few years ago. Super fun, but way too OP.
    4. Most objectives -- other than Stonemist -- are pushovers for a large well-supplied group. Tier 3 keeps are a joke for large groups and blobs. Undefended, a large group can cap a keep in 5 minutes. That's just a ridiculous. A keep should be a worthy capture -- an accomplishment that defines the map and directly effects strategy. A 5 minute cap does NONE of that. It means nothing. It lead to karma training and encourages blobbing.
    5. The addition of rewards and reward tracks were wonderful -- for a time. But it's overtaken the mode. I've seen players worry more about their pips and participation than actually playing WvW for WvW sake. Folks used to play for PPT or PPK or strategic capping or whatever their content focus was. Now people are playing PPP -- Pips, Progress and Participation. It's diluted the content mode and added unneeded pressure which detracts from simply playing the game mode.
    6. Get rid of downed-state completely. It's an outdated mechanic in WvW. It still has value in PvE and I can see the upside in sPvP. But in large scale mode like WvW, it's lost it's place and has become a crutch that favors the blobs.
    7. The swords mechanic -- flagging an objective as contested -- needs to evolve if other mechanics evolve. For example: If keeps become more difficult to take, require more time to get in and cap it, then flagging an objective at like 50% wall or gate health (like in ESO), creates a fresh feel and gives the attackers time to make a significant dent, while allowing defenders time to get inside and repel the attack. The current meta doesn't do that.

    I don't claim any of this is right or correct or even good ideas. For all I know, I'm the only one who thinks and feels this way. Hopefully, it gives CMC and the team something to chew on.

  • Iozeph.5617Iozeph.5617 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2019

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    I wanted to clarify something from today’s blog post while also kicking off a discussion on a topic that’s near and dear to most competitive players: balance.

    It’s important to understand that as competitive handles competitive balance, we will continue to primarily use skill splits in order to minimize the impact on the rest of the game. It’s certainly true that not all issues can be addressed through splits, and we will continue to work with the skills team to make sure we are making the right changes for the entire game when splitting is not a viable option.

    Mini Balance Roadmap

    We have identified the overall power of the game has become an issue and we wish to address this in the competitive game modes.

    The next balance update is going to be smaller than usual. We want to make a handful of very targeted changes to address the biggest pain points in the current meta, but we also want to bank some time for bigger plans moving forward. For a future balance update, we are looking at major adjustments across the board. The goal is to re-establish what the overall power level for competitive modes, and then bring everything down to meet that. In true gw2 fashion, everything is on the table.

    With that said, we’re not going to nerf just for the sake of nerfing. Every change should make sense, and every change should be working toward a bigger goal. This patch is still super early in development, so I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it’s definitely something we want to talk about more moving forward. As mentioned in the blog post, we want to keep the community involved early and often when it comes to balance.

    So, for the purpose of this discussion, consider these two future updates. First for the short-term: What outliers do you see in the current meta? Then think about the big picture: What issues do you see on a fundamental level that should be addressed? Think outside of the current meta and instead about what you want the meta to look like from a power-level perspective. Keep in mind that a majority of changes should be splits, but feel free to also call out issues that you feel cannot be addressed by splits.

    This post is intentionally starting a broad discussion as a jumping off point into the new communication of the Systems team, but keep in mind that in the future our posts are generally going to be more targeted at specific issues as we won’t have as much time to handle giant discussions.

    I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

    cmc

    While I commend your professed wish for better communications with the community I believe your intended approach for balance is flawed. Please stay with me here.

    Why do we need splits between profession abilities between modes? Balance couldn't be achieved years ago when you arguably had a larger work force and you had the moneys to affect change in that direction. This is arguable fact and isn't meant to cast recriminations. We are where we are today or we wouldn't be in this thread right now.

    Flash forward to today -after having lost a lot of key personnel and with the budget constraints forced upon you by NC soft being more restrictive than ever before. Isn't it time, perhaps, to lower the power creep in PvE first?

    I'm serious here and I'm not being divisive when I say this. All that should matter in fractals, raiding, world boss, or overworld content are their respective encountre mechanics. If this means lowering damage output of professions across the board, as well as commensurately lowering the health pools or certain bosses, trash mobs, and or other mobs found throughout the game world then so be it. If it means changing or removing certain mechanics -even though they're seen as cool- so that something game breaking isn't allowed into competitive modes, then do it.

    Solid, fast flowing, well-balanced play -agueably guild war's two's strong suit owing to its combat engine- should never be sacrificed on the alter of 'Cool.' It's a bitter pill but one that's best swallowed now to make certain your professions stay on the same page across all modes going forward.

    Here's my reasoning and you're free to disagree. The game's only getting older at this point. In order to retain or even gain new players you have to be able to not just provide balance but also new attractions within the respective game modes. It means that if you haven't begun to already then you need to start developing with an eye toward stretching what human resources and development dollars you're given so that balance and future development of playable, repeatable content is achievable.

    We have twenty seven separate professions to be worked on at present thanks to elite specs. Possible splits bring this up to fifty four or more. These are important numbers to keep in mind.

    Ask yourselves this; Given what human and financial resources are at your disposal today, are you happy with the job that's been done to date balancing twenty seven professions(fifty four with splits)? If the answer isn't a unanimous, "Yes," around the meeting table, ask in turn whether you honestly believe that you'll be able to do as good or better a job with thirty six if more elites are added(seventy two with splits). Again, if you're being brutally honest and you aren't able to say yes to this unanimously then you need to consider the suggestions above.

    The budget's only going to keep shrinking. Splits are a short-term band-aid. Further balance on them, if required in future, is also going to be a tangled mess. Splits aren't a reasonably attainable or maintainable solution. You need to develop with the long-term health of the game in mind. Balance across both sets of modes needs to stem organically from the PvE side of things. Especially if the lion's share of your other development is going to be for PvE content.

    The status quo -dropping new PvE content on everyone only to find that there's no more budget afterwards to correct the problems that later crop up in competitive modes- hasn't worked. Measure twice or even thrice, then cut once. Err on the side of doing the least harm.

    Get your house in order, please?

    Thanks for your time.