Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at WvW.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

  • Scourge

We’ve identified scourge as the major pain point in WvW right now, and more specifically Sand Savant’s big shade affecting 10 targets. This has pushed scourge far above other options in terms of damage, while also adding to its strong corrupts and solid barrier application. There are other aspects of scourge that we’re looking into for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that reducing their target cap back down to 5 is a significant change and we want to see how the meta adjusts before making any additional changes to shades. We do still have concerns about their corrupt potential, so we’re also making a slight adjustment to Devouring Darkness.

  • Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
  • Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

aka cmc
Game Designer on PvP/WvW

Tagged:
<1345678

Comments

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First: Good to see ‘tweaks’

    Second: I have seen it said that reducing the number that scourge hits may only increase the number of scourges, mainly because of the AOE, corrupts and barriers.

    It gives damage, and support in the same basic build.

    That being said, others will be able to comment better on this.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • ThomasC.1056ThomasC.1056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    Hello,

    Thank you for the input. For what it's worth, I expect the main effect of reducing Sand savant's target cap will be to just get more scourges to get the work done... But I'm the pessimistic one, and zergs aren't so much of my playstyle.

    I've read the Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP as well, and I was wondering whether some of the issues that are raised there are also valid for WvW (at least, in a near future). I'm especially thinking of the condi mirage question that'll be put on the table, and also :

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage.

    I'm emphasizing that one because it's a question that I (amongst others) have raised in a previous post in the WvW section, and I'm thankful that you're considering it.

    EDIT : Another question. Is the issue of the insane boon application and re-application (that led to the boon corrupt race) on the table for a later larger more "across the board" update ?

    Look at that—you broke Scruffy's sarcasm meters. ~ Taimi.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    The main problems...

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes

    What Scourge, Reaper and core Necros need to fit in with a fast paced combat game, where movement and positioning matters. And considering Necro builds have access to a lot of area skills already, the Scourge didn’t need more AoEs built-in.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necromancer-for-august-2019

    “Shade Revamp

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shade

    Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...

    “Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”
    Damage: X
    Cripple: (2s)
    Number of Targets: 1
    Radius: 130
    Range: 900
    *All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

    Sand Swell Revamp

    Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

    “Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”
    Barrier: 1,618
    Duration: (8s)
    Radius: 180
    Range: 1,200
    Break Stun
    Recharge: (30s)“

    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

  • HIT CAP IS FINALLY NERFED BOYS

  • Xion.5694Xion.5694 Member ✭✭

    Hi Cal,
    Thank you for feedback.

    Please leave the 10 target hit - but make Sand Savant killable, like Chrono F5.
    F4.

    Love to her more from you.

    PS If you are tuning down the corrupts, tune down the enchantment application from other profs.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Keep up the good work Cal!

    By the way, I saw the potential changes for PvP and wondered why are they only being considered for that game mode? Those changes to Condi Mirage are definitely something we need.

  • Hey I really think you guys should buff blast gyro, shredder gyro and maybe make function gyro not explode after a single cc hits it and buff scrapper hammer godbless.

  • @GrahamW.5397 said:
    Hey I really think you guys should buff blast gyro, shredder gyro and maybe make function gyro not explode after a single cc hits it and buff scrapper hammer godbless.

    DPS Scrapper is already good, lol

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

  • @Jakkun.4561 said:

    @GrahamW.5397 said:
    Hey I really think you guys should buff blast gyro, shredder gyro and maybe make function gyro not explode after a single cc hits it and buff scrapper hammer godbless.

    DPS Scrapper is already good, lol

    woosh

  • Bezerker.2379Bezerker.2379 Member ✭✭✭

    Fine with the target cap issue but can we do something to make these changes less of an issue for solo roaming or small group roaming?

    The shade changes are good in zergs but not being able to barrier myself is not good. Same with the nerf to corrupts.

  • Feels surreal to see you up there CMC. Miss your streams. :)

    I agree with sand savant changes. Scourge is pretty broken in WvW for almost only this reason.

    I dont think devouring needs nerfed too. I think thats a good skill and deserves to be 2 corrupts. I think the sand svant change is so significant that scourge should at least keep that, for now.

  • @Nebilim.5127 said:
    I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

    The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

    the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW
    in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.
    and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?
    the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.
    if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

  • Nebilim.5127Nebilim.5127 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Nebilim.5127 said:
    I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

    The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

    the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW
    in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.
    and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?
    the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.
    if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

    They could keep 2 around you and 3 on shade in wvw only, while keeping 5-5(total 10 traited) in pve. These are all only number changes while keeping the functionality, i really wish the dev listened to this. PvE needs the old shade back not matter what. They already said themselves before, a mode should NEVER suffer because of others.

  • @Nebilim.5127 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Nebilim.5127 said:
    I feel a lot of the nerfs scourge got recently has completely massacred the class in roaming/small parties in favor of zerging. Specifically the shade made playing the class in small parties a literal suicide, because now not only you lack all the condi corrupt/and condi pressure, you are a sitting duck if you ever pop your shade. It is clunky, confusing and made a lot of people unhappy in PvE as well. So a grandmaster gonna convert only one boon out of someone if they are alone? Why must this class and core traits continue to suffer in wvw because of zergs?

    The issue is the shade, so that should be the only focus, isn't possible to just revert back to the old way, and just spread number people when you pop your shade? Let say if you have no shade on, you affect 5 people around you, but if you have a shade on, you affect 2 around and 3 on the shade, or vice versa. This would really fix all the PvE complaints while making the class less useless outside zerging, all the while completely nerfing them in zerg play only

    the change should never have effected the PVE . the change should've been only reducing the number of targets in PVP/WVW
    in pve we need our shade back to how they were.. PVE Scourge is now a melee dps class but with low dps and clunky game play.
    and even if playing support why must i only heal 2 around me and 3 around the shade? or why must i chose to barrier my self or the group?
    the change just doesnt make sense in PVE .. nor to mention DPS scourge is so clunky and uncomfortable to play now we lost the defensive of having second life bar for what? a barrier we cant really apply to our selves? and lets face it.. no matter what site you check or group of raids .. Scourge is barely accepted and barely take the medicore.. if as sup.. Scourge and necromancer generally is doing awfully bad in PVE and they werent so good even before this nerf.
    if anything Scourge should've been buffed in PVE both as dps and support. but nope.. they had a weird logic of giving us new death magic with 600 toughness will make Scourge good pve class even if they nerf shade .. shades must be reverted back to how they were in PVE or at the very least a list of following buffs to Scourge in PVE to bring him to a better spot. both as DPS and support.

    They could keep 2 around you and 3 in wvw only, while keeping 5-5(total 10 traited) in pve. These are all only number changes while keeping the functionality, i really wish the dev listened to this. PvE needs the old shade back not matter what.

    i agree with you completely.. but it seems like the PVE team isnt working and not really caring about what we say.. i never seen a word from PVE balance team.
    the new shade just doesnt work in PVE and it completely destroyed an already medicore class.. i quit my Scourge after the last patch and now im playing ele..
    i only play my scourge on WvW now.. and now they gonna destroy it in the only game mode its still vailble pick..
    i just really hope they listen and fix Scourge PVE. id be sad to say goodbye to my Scourge.

  • Tammuz.7361Tammuz.7361 Member ✭✭✭

    Good to see the appropriate key changes being made, in my opinion these changes bring scourge back into line with other dps classes, leaving it still very powerful, and certainly a META class (where it should be in WvW), but no so powerful that other DPS options like rev, ele, etc are worthless as they currently are in comparison.

    Also leaves much of their support aspect un-nerfed which is nice.

    May want to consider slightly reducing the cooldown on sand-savant shades to compensate, since now the trait basically just doubles cooldown and axes multi shades for the larger AOE size.

    On the other hand, I do think you may finally see a shift away from 100% of scourges in wvw using sand-savant if you do the changes like this... maybe.

  • My thoughts:
    -Remove AOE from character and focus scourge more on casting
    -Take big shade out completely
    -Reduce cool down on shades
    -Add 4 instead of 3 charges for shade
    -Make base AOE for shade slightly larger
    ------KEEP SCOURGE AS A CASTING CLASS-------

  • In my opinion the only change neccessary on Scourge is: Remove the power damage. It's supposed to be a condi class, not a powerAoE Bomber.

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    • Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
    • Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    • Sand Savant: Besides a radius increase there is no reason to run this trait anymore and is now useless. Maybe for at least a compensation remove the shade recast increase?

    • Devouring Darkness: Might as well use Axe as that has 2 corrupts and is AoE (while the range is shorter, it's still better than this).

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    K I've got an idea now;

    • Shades cannot corrupt boons, period. Traits that corrupt boons do not effect Shades, they instead grant Barrier to self and allies.
    • Revert changes so that Shroud skills again effect the Necromancer even when a Shade(s) is active.
    • Remove corrupts from all Punishment skills and replace them with other effects like Barrier, or stronger Barriers.
    • Increase the potency of Barrier that Scourge can apply to itself, but not to allies.
    • Revert Devouring Darkness to it's previous state of corrupting 3 boons.

    This way Scourge can no longer mass corrupt but instead fulfills it's role as a support as it was intended to. It can still apply damage via Wells and weapon skills or by using a power build, and also gains the potential to be an extremely strong Barrier applicator as well as being less dependent on support when solo.

    Then you ( ANet, the developers ) can focus on adjusting other support roles, like Firebrand, by reducing the potency of their healing and boon application.

    Necromancer will still be able to corrupt boons through various sources such as Wells, weapon and trait skills, but it's effects will be felt on much fewer players at a time forcing greater co-ordination and skill interaction.

    EDIT:

    • Shroud skill #1 applies Barrier in an area when summoned. All traits that effect this skill remain unchanged.
    • Path Of Corruption applies Barrier if a condition is cleansed with Shroud skill #2 ( only applies when using Scourge )
    • Shroud skill #3 self applies Barrier and applies Barrier in an area when it expires on the Necromancer.
    • Shroud skill #4 unchanged.
    • Shroud skill #5 no longer "pulses" around the Necromancer. Instead it applies Torment when the Necromancer is hit while Shroud skill #5 is active.

    Ñecromancy [YWY] | Maguuma/Anvil Rock | Diamond Legend

  • Grimjack.8130Grimjack.8130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    • Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
    • Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    • Sand Savant: Besides a radius increase there is no reason to run this trait anymore and is now useless. Maybe for at least a compensation remove the shade recast increase?

    • Devouring Darkness: Might as well use Axe as that has 2 corrupts and is AoE (while the range is shorter, it's still better than this).

    Pros and Cons, more range, less boons. Less range, more boons. This is good balancing, stop raging about it.

    I'm a well known nobody.
    Former member of [MnF], [DnT], [dP], and [Hg]. Winner of the 2018 ERP Tournament.

  • Vegeta.2563Vegeta.2563 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grimjack.8130 said:

    @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:

    • Sand Savant: This trait no longer increases the target cap of shade skills in WvW only
    • Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

    Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

    -The Systems Team

    • Sand Savant: Besides a radius increase there is no reason to run this trait anymore and is now useless. Maybe for at least a compensation remove the shade recast increase?

    • Devouring Darkness: Might as well use Axe as that has 2 corrupts and is AoE (while the range is shorter, it's still better than this).

    Pros and Cons, more range, less boons. Less range, more boons. This is good balancing, stop raging about it.

    Still can't argue that sand savant is going to be pointless to run if these changes go live.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    Cool quote, but "fast-paced combat" isn't equivalent to suddenly giving everything a bunch of tps.

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    Again, nothing here claims you'll be jumping around. Also versatility doesn't mean same playstyles. for every class. Not sure what's your point with these quotes.

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

  • This is a really good step forward with the meta and I appreciate the changes. However my main concern with reducing the amount of boon rip in the game is going to make killing zergs quite a challenge which was one of the main issues with HoT and the perma boon share unkillable pirate shipping. If you could, please consider giving boon rip to something like Ele on the lightning trait line. Currently ele, atleast for zergs, is a meteor shower bot and not much else. Giving boon rip somewhere in the kit would greatly change the play style. Similar to how how necro gets the change to scepter 3 through traits would be beneficial to ele. Having traits change something like lightning staff 3 to an aoe with boon rip would be nice. This is just a suggestion, one that probably isnt perfect, but something to consider none the less

  • Sand Shroud and Shades do too many things at the same time.

    They should have had traits making them choose the focus of the Shades, keeping each line of traits focused in one aspect of the Scourge kit.

    For example, something on the lines of this:

    • First, cut the damage and barrier from desert shroud by a lot. Only one of the amounts cut will return individually depending on traits selected:
    • Upper line: Support and Barrier

      • Remove conditions and give boons to allies. Gain life force when removing conditions.
      • Give Barriers when placing Shades. Sand Cascade becomes a skill that pulses barrier over 5s instead a one time pulse.
      • Barrier applied by you lasts longer. Desert Shroud gives more Barrier.
    • Mid line: Condition and Scourge kit:

      • Empowering torch and gain life force from burning.
      • Empowering punishments. Desert shroud becomes Harbinger of Sorrow.
      • Burning deals more damage and causes torment. Desert shroud deals more damage, gives more torment and adds crippled.
    • Lower Line: Enemy Debuff and pressure

      • Cause weakness when you cause crippled. Gain life force when removing boons.
      • New trait - Envenom Enchantments: Removing a boon from a foe causes them to be poisoned. (1 stack, 3s, 10s cooldown). Nefarious Favor becomes a skill that also cuts by 2s the duration of some boons on enemies hit, down to a minimum of 2s.
      • Gain boons when removing them. Desert Shroud removes 1 boon from enemies, and marks the affected enemies with an effect that makes them immune to the boon removed for 2s, preventing reapplication of that boon.
  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    Cool quote, but "fast-paced combat" isn't equivalent to suddenly giving everything a bunch of tps.

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    Again, nothing here claims you'll be jumping around. Also versatility doesn't mean same playstyles. for every class. Not sure what's your point with these quotes.

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

    There are more than just Thief and Mesmer who perform fast paced attacks and have mobility and positioning skills. Get it now? Or do you think Thief and Mesmer are the only professions who can quickly attack and move around the battlefield?

    If you think slow skills and the lowest mobility are the defining identity of Necro, and improving those areas for combat that exist on other professions means “homogenize”, then you have a lot to learn about this game and balance.

    But don’t blame me for asking when we have the devs own words to rely on...

    “Joy of Movement

    You’ve probably heard this term before when we’ve mentioned other features or mechanics in Guild Wars 2.”

    “The more fun, interesting movement we have in the game, the more fun and interesting it is."

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced”

  • Baltzenger.2467Baltzenger.2467 Member ✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 that sounds really good! But I don't think that the scope of the next balance patch involves such mechanical changes, I remember that the devs posted the parameters that they're working with (such mechanical changes are beyond them).

    @Cal Cohen.3527 Hey!
    Good to see that you are looking at this issue.
    I'd say that reducing the target cap back to 5 will affect compositions on wvw, but I don't know if it will ultimately work as a band aid before the big shake up. Reducing the cap is important, but I'm inclined to think that the treatment to such high AoE fighting styles should be similar to what you have done with spellbreaker. If the shade skills "debuff" enemies in such a way that they cannot be affected twice (or thrice) by shades, as in, once you hit them, they get the debuff and if another scourge plants a shade on top of yours, their skills will target the same enemy, but won't affect it, that would greatly reduce the impact of having 10 shades on top of a group, in the same way that stacking Wind of Disenchantment is of no use, spreading out shades offers better counterplay, and promotes diversity within squads. I've no idea if adding or removing "debuffs" from skills is within the scope of what you're working with though, if not, I hope that you can both get the skill to a manageable level before the big shakeup, without alienating necromancer players too much, we need every player that we can get on WvW right now!

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    Cool quote, but "fast-paced combat" isn't equivalent to suddenly giving everything a bunch of tps.

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    Again, nothing here claims you'll be jumping around. Also versatility doesn't mean same playstyles. for every class. Not sure what's your point with these quotes.

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

    There are more than just Thief and Mesmer who perform fast paced attacks and have mobility and positioning skills. Get it now? Or do you think Thief and Mesmer are the only professions who can quickly attack and move around the battlefield?

    That's fine, then play those classes, I don't see how that changes the main point of what I wrote.

    If you think slow skills and the lowest mobility are the defining identity of Necro, and improving those areas for combat that exist on other professions means “homogenize”, then you have a lot to learn about this game and balance.

    Slow skills? And I'm still not sure why you think every class should do everything. Something doesn't need to be a "defining identity" of the class to still be a part of it.
    Do I really have "a lot to learn about this game and balance"? You're the one that wants a teleport spamming necros -you sure must be concerned with the balance part of this game, oof.

  • yeah, i´m quite thinking the same way most of the others do. the necro-corrupts are not the problem. remember: a corrupt can only apply conditions, if boons had already been applied before at the target. the reason why this boon conversion is so strong, is the massive amount of boons that already get applied. even with the current state after the latest balance patch, i can corrupt down many enemy boons, while not noticing much difference in the buff-bar of my target (in fact, you cannot even consider yourself how many boons you already stripped without using arcdps). this means: the boon corrupts are neither too strong nor too weak, the boon application from other classes are the problem you need to find a way to handle.

    just as DeadlySynz already stated, changing the scourge values over and over again will not impact the game in the intended way. You need to get away from the way of thinking at every class for itself. every aspect of each class (especially guards vs necros) affects another, or, multiple others. Nerfing boon-corrupts will automatically buff boon applications, buffing corrupts will automatically nerf boon applications. Buffing boon removal/boon conversion will always nerf boon application and so on. Every so far suggested change in terms of necro/guard/engi has been extremely one-sided; some of them just negated each other, some of them extremely buffed one and extremely nerfed the corresponding counterpart.
    Thinking this way, maybe it is not the time for nerfing one thing after another, again, and again, and again until everything in the game is on the same level again (well, it will be the same level of uselessness then) but time to BUFF other counterparts that can compensate this disbalance. And this is not directly targeted at the so called "boons vs corrupts-problem", but at every specialization available in the game. The reason why specific classes (especially guard and necro) are chosen over others in a zergfight is not directly because they are too strong, but they are the most (and sometimes only) viable choice.
    So, give every (with "every" i mean EVERY single one, not some, every!) class, respective specialization, a specific role to fill in, and (as the name "specialization" already states) make it strong in this role. ONLY in this role.

    moving away from the original topic i would highly recommend to think about the following point as well

    you want to target specific problems with the next patch(es), so why don´t you adress the one class, that is totally messed up at the moment (or should i say, MESMERed up?..... sry, bad pun). ==> Mesmer
    in Zergfights, except from setting a veil and gravity well, the mesmer/Chronomancer has absolutely no purpose anymore.
    The chronomancer had a very well functioning role in the zerg, before it got nerfed into damnation patch by patch.
    --> boonshare has been made impossible since "rework" of "Signet of inspiration" (bring back the old one that actually applies boons)
    --> shatterskills are nearly impossible to use in large scaled fights (illusions are instantly cleaved down before you can even think of shattering them for a continuum-split, so it often happens that you want to cast a double-gravity-well, but mid-cast, where you want to use CS, your illus die and the right moment for GW is gone)
    the problem is: you will always need at least 1-2 mesmers because of their unique ways of utility (especially veil and portal, but also the gravity-well and focus-pulls, which neither can get replaced by other zerg-classes)
    --> the specialization-specific Utility-skills (wells) are too stationary for zergfights because of their high cooldown compared to other aoe-skills and the fact, that their strongest part happens with their last tick (which will often just hit nothing because the area of the fight already moved away by then). the gravity-well is the only useful well, because every pulse of it has impact on the fight
    Yes, the mesmer could maybe played on dps, but it´s just not worth because revenants, elementalists and necros are doing this 10 times better, independent if you play chrono or mirage.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    yes... please only do tweaks from now on instead of reinventing the wheel every year. good stuff man keep it up.

    oh yeah devouring darkness is fine I think. honestly some other classes could use some boon removal. and reliable stab. it would be a great thing for the meta if monopolies weren't a thing. imagine 2 or even 3 players able to provide a little bit of a few things that all add up to a whole, instead of one class doing 100% of one thing etc. meta staling is bad in this game. really bad. make people excited to play their class again!

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Decrease the cap hit to 3 (allowing for 6 targets via necro + shades) and turn one of the f-skills into an ability that teleports the Scourge one-way from their current location to the their shade with a neat animation that grants evasion uptime, (flavor it a moving through the "sand pits" the necro created). That'll cut back on their damage whilst giving them a defensively-minded option to help improve personal survivability. People can kitten about the offensive potential of scourges in large scale all they want, they're still basically the only profession in the game without a decent "ohfuc--" button if they get caught even remotely close to the enemy train.

    Also, I'm all for cutting back or removing the boon corruption, but Scrappers will need to be looked at if we go this route. Unless the end goal is to go back to the boon-ball HoT meta.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger, Fort Aspenwood.

  • Please, just delete Sand Savant already and revert the Shade changes from the last patch. Replace it with another supportive trait.

    Alternatively, you make Sand Savant lose the radius increase and "1 big shade" nature and instead give the Shade recharge reduction it has in PvE until you can come up with a better replacement.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    Cool quote, but "fast-paced combat" isn't equivalent to suddenly giving everything a bunch of tps.

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    Again, nothing here claims you'll be jumping around. Also versatility doesn't mean same playstyles. for every class. Not sure what's your point with these quotes.

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

    There are more than just Thief and Mesmer who perform fast paced attacks and have mobility and positioning skills. Get it now? Or do you think Thief and Mesmer are the only professions who can quickly attack and move around the battlefield?

    That's fine, then play those classes, I don't see how that changes the main point of what I wrote.

    If you think slow skills and the lowest mobility are the defining identity of Necro, and improving those areas for combat that exist on other professions means “homogenize”, then you have a lot to learn about this game and balance.

    Slow skills? And I'm still not sure why you think every class should do everything. Something doesn't need to be a "defining identity" of the class to still be a part of it.
    Do I really have "a lot to learn about this game and balance"? You're the one that wants a teleport spamming necros -you sure must be concerned with the balance part of this game, oof.

    I know it’s hard to imagine some balance and improvement changes when you’ve been stuck on 7 years of the same designs. And if your “status quo” mentality on professions was correct, then esports wouldn’t have died, and we wouldn’t have the devs telling us big changes are coming to professions in wvw and spvp now 7 years later.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    @misterman.1530 said:

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    In particular we’re looking at:

    • Scourge

    Typical. And typical responses from the typical people. Yea, Scourges are incredible in a zerg. Roaming, not so much. Scourges will not one-shot someone like a SoulBeast or a DeadEye. Scourges have NO defense and are generally running glass. But by all means, nerf us more and give us no retaliation or blocks. Hey, for funsies, why not make the one pathetic port we have take 10 seconds to cast - that'll teach us.

    Does Anet even play the class?

    "Scourges are incredible in a zerg" and that's what they're targeting, so why are you complaining about roaming here? I don't really get it. Or are you another one of those people that think the single class they're playing should be strong at everything they want to do?


    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    And this is the type of fast-paced and fun Necromancer we deserve for GW2... Not the very slow one we have...

    From what I saw in the initial fights of this vid (because I'm not sure there's a point for me to watch it all, as I didn't bother with bdo and might not have enough of an insight into the gameplay), it seems you're looking for mesmer/thief playstyle. If that's the case, just play the classes with playstyle you desire instead of trying to homogenize playstyle of different classes.

    Because speeding up skills on Necro, and giving them some mobility, would make them exactly like every other profession in GW2... Or maybe GW2 was billed as...

    “Experience high-impact, fast-paced combat”

    Cool quote, but "fast-paced combat" isn't equivalent to suddenly giving everything a bunch of tps.

    “Combat in Guild Wars 2 is flexible, fast paced, and dynamic. Every profession is versatile, with an arsenal of skills and powers at their command.”

    Again, nothing here claims you'll be jumping around. Also versatility doesn't mean same playstyles. for every class. Not sure what's your point with these quotes.

    And sorry, no, I’ll have to counter what you think “homogenize” is.... I played an mmo where each class had similar core design mechanics, and all builds could potentially fly, teleport, super leap, run at high speed and go invisible... yet had vastly more unique builds and role diversity than GW2.

    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

    There are more than just Thief and Mesmer who perform fast paced attacks and have mobility and positioning skills. Get it now? Or do you think Thief and Mesmer are the only professions who can quickly attack and move around the battlefield?

    That's fine, then play those classes, I don't see how that changes the main point of what I wrote.

    If you think slow skills and the lowest mobility are the defining identity of Necro, and improving those areas for combat that exist on other professions means “homogenize”, then you have a lot to learn about this game and balance.

    Slow skills? And I'm still not sure why you think every class should do everything. Something doesn't need to be a "defining identity" of the class to still be a part of it.
    Do I really have "a lot to learn about this game and balance"? You're the one that wants a teleport spamming necros -you sure must be concerned with the balance part of this game, oof.

    I know it’s hard to imagine some balance and improvement changes when you’ve been stuck on 7 years of the same designs. And if your “status quo” mentality on professions was correct, then esports wouldn’t have died, and we wouldn’t have the devs telling us big changes are coming to professions in wvw and spvp now 7 years later.

    Ah, so you'll just keep trying to take some cheap personal jabs at me instead of actually answering to anything that was mentioned. Nearly no game ever suddenly changes their design and set of mechanics after 7 years, so -again- not sure what you're talking about. Also for something to "die", they would first need to be "alive" and, honestly, no offense to anyone but it doesn't feel like gw2 was ever big on being an esport. Finally what I said has nothing to do with "status quo mentality", it's not like I'm potesting balance changes. I'm saying stop trying to make "your class" do everything (homogenizing 9 classes, yup) and actually switch classes accodingly to what you're expecting from them.
    Your suggestions about combat not being dynamic unless you're able to spam 20 teleports "because other game does that!" is also staight up false. And so is your claim about gw2 being in the same/stagnant state for 7 years.

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    I think it's wise to reduce targets and little else and then see how the game is affected. This will be good for the zerg game, if a little harsh on necros, who are rapidly seeing their niche whittled away whilst other, non-zergy classes aren't seeing the same sort of nerfs (thief, mesmer, ranger, warrior, engineer - all fit the roamer category and all are OP).

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.