Official Feedback Thread about Build and Equipment Templates - Page 24 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Official Feedback Thread about Build and Equipment Templates

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Comments

  • The 'revert' button sounds like a step in the right direction at least, making templates act more like templates.
    I'm curious what events will define the point that is reverted too, and how gear will be stored before/after the reversion.

    Will character selection/map change/disconnects impact the 'revert' point?

    Will loading another template impact the revert point?

    If I hit the revert button; does the now unused gear drop into my inventory?

    Does the gear only in the revert point drop in to my inventory when the revert point is updated?

  • Balthzar.3807Balthzar.3807 Member ✭✭✭

    the revert button is going to be the best they would be able to do with the system they have in place. lets be honest they are not going to rework it from the ground up.

    That being said I would like some update on the other issues mentioned please. I don't care about the monetisation we all know that is not going to change.

  • Balthzar.3807Balthzar.3807 Member ✭✭✭

    so any further update on other things brought up

  • Still looking for keybinds to be customizable per build. Or even just per character. PLEEEEEEEEASE <3

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    Like for real, am i supposed to go open the template, change smth and keep the window open while im playing the game to test out the trait so i can then click revert if i dont like it? Meanwhile if i want the privilege of playing with my full screen free i cant go back to the template window and click revert afterwards because it only works while the window is open when you make the changes.

    Go back to the drawing board and give us a save and a load button. I dont wanna be rude to the devs but holy kitten this is such a weird way go about fixing tenplates.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Like for real, am i supposed to go open the template, change smth and keep the window open while im playing the game to test out the trait so i can then click revert if i dont like it?

    Yes, I actually logged in to take a look, and - as expected - it's a nonsense feature.

    Go back to the drawing board and give us a save button. I dont wanna be rude to the devs but holy kitten this is such a weird way go about fixing templates.

    Good luck with that.

  • Elden Arnaas.4870Elden Arnaas.4870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    Maybe this is just for mis-clicks. It may be more complex and require changing a lot about the way the thing works in order to add a more functional save/revert system. That said, they should have put more time and effort into this thing that they wanted players to spend significant amounts of IRL money on - and shipped a more polished product to begin with. Did they even release the tutorial they spoke about right before it templates shipped?(A tutorial that should have been released before the feature it explained) The whole templates release seems weird, not a lot of commitment.
    edit - typo

  • I was hoping the window = game window so any changes to the build "template" I made can be reverted before I quit the current game session.

    What is the point of this change?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nick.5276 said:
    Can you not just admit that the build system you've implemented is kitten?

    Have you ever seen Arenanet admitting failures and apologising for them or fixing them?
    I certainly haven't.
    Not with the invisible bird flip shoe boxes that only have one source with drop rates far below precursors.
    Not with the theft fall damage reduction nor the theft of the healing from Guardian Greatsword trait.

  • BlackyWarsX.5384BlackyWarsX.5384 Member ✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    New approach with a wild idea: Scrap these templates loadouts, sit down, un-tangle your inventory spaghetti code and rebuild it to be sustainable. Take your time doing so. I know, I know, there are a lot of items in the game, but I guess at some point it has to be done before everything collapses. Unlink the wardrobe from items and link it to the slots itself in the process.

    Then, introduce new actual templates, giving us template slots that combine gear, builds and wardrobe.
    Loading a template scans your accounts (newly introduced) gear inventory before it checks your characters inventory for the gear in the templates and only loads what it has found, otherwise you get a warning / error message in chat that some things couldn't be loaded.

    Monetize the newly introduced, account-wide gear inventory: A tab for armor, a tab for weapons, a tab for sigils, a tab for runes, a tab for infusions, a tab for gathering tools. Here you can go nuts, either monetize the whole things (x slots/x gems) or monetize slots for single tabs (some people probably don't need much slots for gathering tools or upgrades).

    How does the gear inventory work? Simple: you put stuff in there much like the shared inventory slots, but it works only for everything your characters can equip.
    Since wardrobe is now unlinked from the items itself, you now have:

    • a template system that is usable accross all characters
    • a template system that can be monetized by expanding the gear inventory (account-wide) AND/OR expanding the amount of templates you can save (per character)
    • a template system that doesn't punish players for having legendaries - it actually encourages them to get legendaries (people investing time in the game)
    • a template system that allows to visually customize builds by giving it distinctive looks
  • @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    Monetize the newly introduced, account-wide gear inventory: A tab for armor, a tab for weapons, a tab for sigils, a tab for runes, a tab for infusions, a tab for gathering tools. Here you can go nuts, either monetize the whole things (x slots/x gems) or monetize slots for single tabs (some people probably don't need much slots for gathering tools or upgrades).

    I agree with all you said except the account-wide gear inventory.
    It could discorage people from making more than one set of weapons and 3 of armor (of legendaries or per stats) and that could hurt the whole economy in the game.
    I prefer that it's per characters but the number of slots unlocked are unlocked for every character, and it's easy to access it to move the items to bank or shared account slots.
    That way you can still share gear but it's enough of a pain in the kitten you could decide to get duplicated of legendaries or per stat. (wich would make sense to encourage getting, for example, different designs of legendary armors)

  • @Dmon.2089 said:

    I agree with all you said except the account-wide gear inventory.
    It could discorage people from making more than one set of weapons and 3 of armor (of legendaries or per stats) and that could hurt the whole economy in the game.
    I prefer that it's per characters but the number of slots unlocked are unlocked for every character, and it's easy to access it to move the items to bank or shared account slots.

    Good point and a good solution to the problem

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Dmon.2089 said:

    I don't even get who that button is destined for. Somebody trying on golem whith the window opened on a side?

    Basically that. Not much other use for it. The golems in Lions Arch Aerodrome/PvP lobby/armistice bastion are literally the only place you can play with the build window open realistically , unless you want to miss out on where you are going.
    You're better off getting the chat code and plopping the build somewhere outside of the game.

    @TwoGhosts.6790 said:
    Deltaconnected usually has fixes to Arc within 24 hours of there being a problem.
    He even posted a fix on Xmas day.

    If additional data is stored server-side every time you make a change then reverting to the last version (builds wise) should be simple but the game code likely has become so convoluted that an external utility such as arcdps is able to do it much easier. I would not be surprised if some of the devs responsible for the original equipment and build panel have long gone because before templates it hadn't seen changes.

    arcdps' templates had its own issues due to being third party. For one any deletion of items or result of losing items was not covered. It wasn't instant either.


    With the WvW/PvP balance update I think there should have been a bundle of templates up for sale again but this time without PvE stuff such as boosters. There was a discounted armistice bastion so kudos to that , people that didn't pick it up last time can do so. Most consumables are reduced in price when purchased in bulk. Only selling a new warclaw skin with the patch is useless for people that bought one in the past.
    (edit Feb 28, 2020: the build templates package is back up on gem store, but the value proposition still isn't there: 2 build templates + 2 equipment templates + 1 build storage (3 builds) for 2000 gems isn't a strong proposition against 2 character slots for 1600 gems which gives you 6 build templates and equipment templates. If it were 4 equipment templates + 2 build storage instead then the value proposition is higher as that is equal to 2 character slots plus the value of being able to have 4 different support builds on 4 different characters. If you only play fractals or strikes as instanced content and don't WvW/PvP then at best you "need" 2 equipment templates , zero build templates, and zero build storage: firebrand needs literally one change on the build template for quickness on heal + alacrity renegade is less common for that reason besides the diviner gear.)

    I don't have much confidence that equipment templates will be improved much further: the fact is they involve items. Involving items means the potential of item deletion or other issues is higher especially when one item is shared between templates but upgrades are different. In its current state, the best use case is full ascended in each equipment template , with the PvE players likely opting for berserker stats in the first template + viper in the second equipment template. As neither stat set is optimal in WvW for most classes , WvW players are the major consumer of templates if an additional character isn't used solely for WvW. There is nearly zero reason to get templates for PvP as you have time before a match as well as an equipment/build lock during it. (Plus an amulet is a single click.) Legendary armor isn't as buggy as weapons I think, as I haven't had major issues because I don't unequip armor. If I had to guess , edge cases of legendary items are breaking the system but the majority of players without special use cases are unaffected.

    Equipment templates could more aptly be called equipment loadouts or equipment hotkeys. What is a template about it is that it saves the state of the legendary items and their upgrades unless bugged out. If you use ascended gear it is less of a template system , although it does save what you have equipped so in that sense it is a template.
    The biggest setback currently to equipment templates (outside of bugs) is that you can't remember an equipment template + build template combination, which makes separation by character more simple and affordable. If there's minor min-maxing of precision (crit chance) and condition/boon duration it is even more confusing. You can't save the stat totals somewhere like gw2skills editor does ; the mouseover on equipment templates tabs doesn't even count upgrades or the portion of ascended trinkets that counts as a jewel. The fact is equipment swapping and changing upgrades in them (especially WvW infusions) is tedious and equipment templates do serve to replace that. Going from power to condi for example is 6 armor pieces , 2-4 weapons, 2 rings, 2 trinkets, backpiece, amulet and that's before aquatic gear or upgrades.

    With build templates there could be improvements but it would be extremely difficult to ROI on the improvements because build templates (build hotkeys basically) as a purchase simply aren't attractive unless you need to switch builds on the fly and play multiple game modes on that character. With build storage most people use workarounds like chatcodes at this point. If you play PvE only for instance, you have enough build templates for power, condi, and support already. Right now you can change your build , save the chat code or even link it in chat (if you have a personal guild you can even just use that chat channel, have one chat tab disable all chat except from that guild while experimenting), and inspect the chat code when you need to revert to that version. It doesn't get more convenient than that. Short of changing the monetization there is not much that can be done build templates wise. Because chat codes can be pasted ingame , it's just an extra step versus GW1 saving/loading from files.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    New approach with a wild idea: Scrap these templates loadouts, sit down, un-tangle your inventory spaghetti code and rebuild it to be sustainable. Take your time doing so. I know, I know, there are a lot of items in the game, but I guess at some point it has to be done before everything collapses. Unlink the wardrobe from items and link it to the slots itself in the process.

    Then, introduce new actual templates, giving us template slots that combine gear, builds and wardrobe.
    Loading a template scans your accounts (newly introduced) gear inventory before it checks your characters inventory for the gear in the templates and only loads what it has found, otherwise you get a warning / error message in chat that some things couldn't be loaded.

    Monetize the newly introduced, account-wide gear inventory: A tab for armor, a tab for weapons, a tab for sigils, a tab for runes, a tab for infusions, a tab for gathering tools. Here you can go nuts, either monetize the whole things (x slots/x gems) or monetize slots for single tabs (some people probably don't need much slots for gathering tools or upgrades).

    How does the gear inventory work? Simple: you put stuff in there much like the shared inventory slots, but it works only for everything your characters can equip.
    Since wardrobe is now unlinked from the items itself, you now have:

    • a template system that is usable accross all characters
    • a template system that can be monetized by expanding the gear inventory (account-wide) AND/OR expanding the amount of templates you can save (per character)
    • a template system that doesn't punish players for having legendaries - it actually encourages them to get legendaries (people investing time in the game)
    • a template system that allows to visually customize builds by giving it distinctive looks

    Or, at the very least make the Loadout slots account wide unlocks and scrap the build storage monetization and make it virtually unlimited, akin to Arc and GW1, client side if need be. Add option to save Gear setups as well rather than just Traits and Utilities and make that the proper template option, to freely load from into the monetized quick swap loadouts slots.

    Still plenty monetization left to be had, but offering actual optional QoL to buy that might want players to actually support it, over feeling utterly disrespected as customers and ripped off, turning away from the game instead.

    Sure it's going to be a minor mess with refunds, but this current system and monetization is a disgrace, which was plenty pointed out even before release of the system to avoid such a mess.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2020

    @Asum there wouldn't be a need for refunds if build storage monetization was decreased massively and max builds stored was multiplied. For example if the current rate is 500 gems for 3 build storage if they sold 9 for 500 gems and increased the maximum build storage amount accordingly there would be no need for refund. The only change would be whoever bought them for 500 gems per 3 build storage slots getting 9 instead. So if for example if you bought 3x build storage ( 9 slots total) for 1500 gems you'd retroactively receive 27 build storage instead of 9 or if you for some reason spent larger amounts of money for a feature that can be circumvented with a chatcode then it would be 8x 9 = 72 slots , as the current limit is 24 which is 8 purchases for 4000 gems.

    If operating a business it's better to make existing customers happier if there's no added resources to do so and to entice newer customers than to refund people which annoys shareholders and the entire finance department overseeing the templates. As Balthzar mentioned previously, the amount of dev hours to rework the templates completely with bug testing and QA once more would easily exceed ROI.

    If build templates were made accountwide , on the other hand , I don't think it will be kept 300 gems. It would likely be double or tripled price similar to additional crafting licenses (800 gems). They'd lose out on revenue if grandfathering in existing build templates as well.

    The biggest issue right now for Arenanet in terms of monetization (which isn't the main topic of the thread I believe, problems and bugs using the templates are *) is they need to make bulk pricing more attractive. If someone plays 9 classes they're asking for a triple A game's price at 4500 gems+ just for one equipment template each, let alone for build templates at 300 gems each (another 2700 gems). It basically punishes whoever dares not use berserker's + viper's.

    • Even if the entire templates system was free, legendary items dropping upgrades randomly is an issue. Legendary runes/sigils not giving their stat bonuses is an issue. Revenant utilities swapping places is an issue unless you skill click (which is far from optimal) and remember icons. There's probably other things mentioned but consistently those two are the major complaints. Build storage limit of 24 is a concern but not an issue per se. The whole revert button is a joke and really only exists because build templates and build storage are a paid feature. (Game mode remembering build/equipment is fixed and that was my #1 gripe.)

    In their current system, the best monetization option with minimal changes in the coding given current pricing is:
    1. Retroactively give people more build storage , increase storage per 500 gems by a great deal (like 9 or 10 per 500 gems) to make it actually worthwhile to purchase it. This should be a priority since the overwhelming majority opt for chatcodes. There's 3 specs per class so unless you don't play WvW/PvP even the build storage isn't enough as power/condi/support archetype per mode is 27 builds already , not even counting spec changes (i.e. power tempest vs power weaver , condi soulbeast vs condi druid, power core ranger vs power soulbeast, condi necro vs condi scourge, condi mirage vs condi chrono) along with game modes (power spellbreaker in PvE vs PvP/WvW, firebrand in PvE vs PvP/WvW, ele in PvE compared to PvP/WvW).
    2. Make bundles of equipment templates + build storage such that the equivalent minimum build storage is effectively free (i.e. if selling 4 equipment templates for 2000 gems , toss in 2 build storage if its still 3 slots per 500 gems --- this makes it highly competitive with added 4 character slots for PvE players with power+condi+support on each character or even with 2 character slots totaling 4 equipment and 6 build templates). This would not cut into build templates and for PvE-only players build templates don't even have any appeal unless min-maxing traits in the middle of instanced content as the only advantage over build storage is the hotkey / hotswap feature out of combat which is only relevant in PvE/WvW.
    3. make equipment storage less pricey in bulk for min-maxed situations where the build doesn't change but the gear does (i.e. if you buy 5 you get a 20% discount so 5 equipment templates = 2000 gems, 10 equipment templates = 3500 gems at 30% discount , so on and so forth).
    4. Change added build templates over the 3 everyone receives such that you can only use them in your WvW spawn. That makes it less "pay to win" and more for convenience, while legitimizing build storage. Otherwise I think account-wide unlock idea presented in this thread numerous times is legitimate but I'm unsure how the already purchased build templates would work without increasing the existing limit to at least 10 (the datamined maximum). It would be pretty complicated if someone purchased more than 7 build templates in total; someone who doesn't care at all about spending money is likely to have bought at least 9 (1 per class).

  • Killthehealersffs.8940Killthehealersffs.8940 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 29, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    New approach with a wild idea: Scrap these templates loadouts, sit down, un-tangle your inventory spaghetti code and rebuild it to be sustainable. Take your time doing so. I know, I know, there are a lot of items in the game, but I guess at some point it has to be done before everything collapses. Unlink the wardrobe from items and link it to the slots itself in the process.

    Then, introduce new actual templates, giving us template slots that combine gear, builds and wardrobe.
    Loading a template scans your accounts (newly introduced) gear inventory before it checks your characters inventory for the gear in the templates and only loads what it has found, otherwise you get a warning / error message in chat that some things couldn't be loaded.

    Monetize the newly introduced, account-wide gear inventory: A tab for armor, a tab for weapons, a tab for sigils, a tab for runes, a tab for infusions, a tab for gathering tools. Here you can go nuts, either monetize the whole things (x slots/x gems) or monetize slots for single tabs (some people probably don't need much slots for gathering tools or upgrades).

    How does the gear inventory work? Simple: you put stuff in there much like the shared inventory slots, but it works only for everything your characters can equip.
    Since wardrobe is now unlinked from the items itself, you now have:

    • a template system that is usable accross all characters
    • a template system that can be monetized by expanding the gear inventory (account-wide) AND/OR expanding the amount of templates you can save (per character)
    • a template system that doesn't punish players for having legendaries - it actually encourages them to get legendaries (people investing time in the game)
    • a template system that allows to visually customize builds by giving it distinctive looks

    Or, at the very least make the Loadout slots account wide unlocks and scrap the build storage monetization and make it virtually unlimited, akin to Arc and GW1, client side if need be. Add option to save Gear setups as well rather than just Traits and Utilities and make that the proper template option, to freely load from into the monetized quick swap loadouts slots.

    Still plenty monetization left to be had, but offering actual optional QoL to buy that might want players to actually support it, over feeling utterly disrespected as customers and ripped off, turning away from the game instead.

    Sure it's going to be a minor mess with refunds, but this current system and monetization is a disgrace, which was plenty pointed out even before release of the system to avoid such a mess.

    As you said , 2 month before it was launched it have been described 100% how it would fuction .
    1 month before , some1 leaked the price on the Reddit .
    On the release , people didnt buy it :
    https://imgur.com/a/GY8GzsZ

    How again they where ripped ?

    (imagine if there was a GUY , that told the casuals to suck it up and dont use underveloped low-damage specs in the raids and later on cry that Build Template reduces the build diversity ....
    It woud be hella funny :))

    eidt: i am telling you .... try to find a monotarization for future hardcores raids , even if casuals dont get into them .

    edit : or increase views on twitch on Raids

    Views or
    Money or
    More population willing to do them

    only 1 out 3 is needed
    or lets continue with Single Bosses (Strike Missions)

    Just let me have fun for a while

  • deadlyjoker.4907deadlyjoker.4907 Member ✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020

    Honestly, it does look like you guys from Anet giving no kitten about your players. No sign of paywall removable, so srsly, kitten off!

  • Ragi.7291Ragi.7291 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stephane Lo Presti.7258

    I'm just going to talk about "to go back" button in archetype window.
    Who's it for?
    1. Raid, fractal HL, to change some skill or trait for a specific boss.
    2. For dungeon speed runs or solo kill of bosses.
    3. And finally for the competitive scene for testing.

    It's 3 categories that enter in combat and need to see what's happening on screen so we close build window and that's the end, we can't go back.
    We need a button on the screen when we close this window (like when the map closes an arrow) that allows us to go back to our previous build without going through the menu, without having to keep it open and in 1 click.
    Also don't put a timer, just make sure that if we disconnect from this character, if we change the map, changes will replace the old build.

    If you think it might be too complicated for new or occasional players, put an option checked in the archetype menu that allows us to have access to this advanced mode.

    Sorry, English isn't my first language.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Ragi.7291 said:
    We need a button on the screen when we close this window (like when the map closes an arrow) that allows us to go back to our previous build without going through the menu, without having to keep it open and in 1 click.
    Also don't put a timer, just make sure that if we disconnect from this character, if we change the map, changes will replace the old build.

    While that would be a small upgrade, let's be clear that it would still be a sad excuse for a proper Template system with Save/Load functionality.

    Precisely. What is needed is for the "template" slots to be separate from the active build traits selection. Currently, the only templates in this template system are the ones from account-wide storage - but that storage is so pitifully low, it's next to useless if you;re running more than one character. And that's even without commenting on the cost of that low storage (because, without paying through the nose, it will be too small for even that one character).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭

    When do we get actual gear and equipment templates with keybinds?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would be enough for me if unlocks are account-wide, rather than character-locked.
    But since there are no attempts at making people more likely to buy them, it means that enough people buy them at this horrendous pricing.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    If there were only two things ANET could do to improve this feature what would yours be and why ?... (Its been 6 months so far with no real improvement or listening to the official feedback we've given them at all).

    Note:__ Limiting this to two things specifically around "equipment" loadouts makes it more likely that something can be implemented quickly than a big change which would take a long time. I do agree that the implementation is messy etc (one file/button would be nice to load everything - but this is a "big change" requiring lots of time to coding/qa/test etc ).. however if I only had two improvements that could be made in the next 6 months.... (If you need a reminder on how it currently works - check out the ANET video: )

    I'm torn between the following two choices (Option A or B):
    A. Copyable chat loadout codes & preview loadout codes - with a warning stating somethings are not in the inventory to be equipped if needed but continues to apply it.

    How would it work:

    • The code generated would be the same as the current GW2 API JSON file implementation (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/API:2/characters/:id/equipment) and be stored a pre-located memory space allowing this to be copied into the windows clipboard (which has no space limitations).
    • There would be a preview option to see what the requested "loadout" looks like (ANET can beg/borrow code from GW2 Efficiency to read their own API if needed).
    • It would force validation check on loading and not load any pieces not held in a players inventory and automatically swap stats/infusions/transfusions as needed.
    • We know that the code to interpret a copy existing code template -> another code template already exists; this would require some additional code changes to make sure the items are in the inventory and then mark them to be used in a loadout before putting them into the loadout slot.

    Why this option? ...

    • This would fix the legendary armor/weapons not equipping sigils/infusions/stats when put into a new loadout slot as this would be saved in the code.
    • Allow myself to properly utilise 10+ equipment loadouts I regularly use for various characters without any additional cost if I want to save the information externally and view builds that I may have forgotten about.
    • Reuse of current existing codebase that ANET already uses which can also create a file compatible with third-party fan-sites to interpret as its based upon the GW2 API.
    • Allow sharing of full build to be shown to other characters in-game - one of the big holdbacks in trying to get people into strike missions -> fotm -> raids; is not understanding what a "good" current build may look like which includes armor/weapons/traits. A lot of new players don't use third party sites and being able to share in-game allows us to help educate individuals on what "good" looks like.

    B. A reduction on cost to 500 gems/character for max loadouts increased to 10 loadouts - this is a quick-fix; where at current gold/gem prices. The cost is prohibitively expensive for players who have invested with multiple characters (e.g. one of each profession and some with up to 64 characters !) .

    How would it work:

    • Issue gem refunds to those who have already purchased many equipment loadouts - they are likely to spend them on other areas of the game and that becomes a 'win-win' for ANET and the player (It has been done before for perm. harvesting tools).
    • Big press release... "we wanted to ensure all the bugs were ironed out... we want to give the players more flexibility in the way they want to play... " - aka spin it in a positive way.

    Why this options ? ...

    • Current farming averages around 10-15g/hour; costs about 2000 gems (~730gold) for a character to have 6 loadouts = 48 hrs farming. Which is about 2 weeks for a hard-core player or 12 weeks for someone that plays 4 hrs / week (aka casual). It has been proven to be cheaper to create a new character, expand its bags, power level it up than buy any loadouts.
    • It would encourage people to have more experimentation for a character as they have the "idea" saved in a loadout slot rather than be fixed to two different equipment builds.
    • The ANET "analytics" team (aka player engagement/success) - can prove if the loadout slots have reduced the number of builds different player are running and how successful they have been with different groups of people. This is something people should be using in a MMO like GW2 to enhance their gameplay.
    • Multiple character costs: 2000gems x 9 = 6.5K Gold or (9x$25 gem cards) = $225 USD. This is excessive in any MMO for a "feature" which was available for free in GW1 with unlimited expansion and removed from third party utilities at the request of ANET. I am not prepared to "invest" in ANET right now with the lack of "expansion" level functions/features and the lack of content that I want to play (sry ANET - living story does not cut it) and this is a different topic for another day.
    • Note: that I do not use the 'build' skills loadout and use a third party tool to manage my builds which is much more sophisticated and usable than ANETs implementation - so they are already receiving 0 gems/$0 from me for this part of the feature
  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    That's still not actual templates, but I've given up hope of having an actual, good template system in place.

    I really, really don't understand what is the problem? You can swap the full equipment and the full build to any of the 6 preset at any time while out of combat. There is nothing more change than build and items so you can have full control to swap. What in the world is the problem here? it's fantastic.

    They gave you what was already in game, and split that into 6 copies of that for you to swap freely beween. There is no kitten big downfall or epic fail here. If you have memory problems, just accept only to use 5 templates and the last for experimenting new builds. You are supposed to used online calculators to optimize new builds before you gear them ingame anyway. These templates are so much better than what other games offer and you are still here acting like the world is ended and the devs aren't caring for nothing and don't have a clue.

    My only problem is that equipment sets dont save their settings for which weapons are shown when sheathed but share that setting among all sets. But it is a minor thing i expect one day to get fixed. The templates completely improved this game massively, i'm swapping tons around for different situations. I see the templates as a major improvement. Allowed same hotkey to be set for equipment/build would be a big help also, but for now you can super easy fix that with a little autohotkey and have it working as it should. Minor things.

    Seriously. If you wanna freeload, accept that what you get is already equal or greater compared to other games, for free, and you even have the chance to upgrade it much more if you pay. Just like invenory slots. Would it be nicer if everything was free? I guess sure, but world is world and what arenanet offers is not a greedy package, if you think so then you really haven't played much games recently.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    the answer is it depends how many gear templates you have - for each character a hardcore player looks something like:
    2-3 WvW builds (gear+skills)/2-6 FoTM Builds/12-13 RAID builds (due to each boss having minor, major tweaks or power DPS,condi DPS, heal variants)/2-3 PvP builds...try remembering 10+ equipment template loadouts and which skill builds go with what. The clicking of changing legendary weapons /infusions and part armor stats is extensive and takes a long time to do. When it takes longer to change the build than clearing a fractal or raid boss - there is a problem; even with the best memory in the world.

    Get it wrong for an area/zone/boss can mean the difference of life or death in an area -> time wasted -> frustration-> want to uninstall.

    Remembering all the gear and skills with the current system is an epic fail and takes forever. The current system actually punishes people and ingraines them to not change builds around (esp equipment).

  • Thank you for the effort you are putting into developing build and equipment “templates”.

    They seems good to me and I hope you can make them even better with future updates.

    I’m glad we have this official system instead of that third party tool that most people would never use.

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @Black Storm.6974 said:
    Thank you for the effort you are putting into developing build and equipment “templates”.
    They seems good to me and I hope you can make them even better with future updates.
    I’m glad we have this official system instead of that third party tool that most people would never use.

    The problem is those who need it most have been punished the most - this system we have is not really giving people much at all. All it has done has replaced your PVE/WvW/PvP slot with a single equipment loadout (not template). I am still annoyed how a third-party tool that was free was still far superior and ANET decided to wallop a banhammer on it. Try using the system extensively and see if it really works for you - the current implementation falls far short of what is needed even as a MVP release.

  • @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    That's still not actual templates, but I've given up hope of having an actual, good template system in place.

    I really, really don't understand what is the problem? You can swap the full equipment and the full build to any of the 6 preset at any time while out of combat. There is nothing more change than build and items so you can have full control to swap. What in the world is the problem here? it's fantastic.

    It's loadouts, not templates. I want to change stuff around without it saving after every change. I would like to reset to the initially saved template if I don't like the changes or just wanna try some stuff or just need a different weapon for the situation without having to keep the hero window open at all times. It gives no opportunity to link a build to a equipment loadout (and, lets face it, both depend heavily on each other).

    There is so much feedback in this thread, that the only answer to your question is: read this thread. It has so much potential to be a solid, good working feature and right now it's wasted on the most easy implementation that limits it at the same time. Not talking about the heavy monetization, nobody expected it for free, people always said they would pay money for it - but not triple per character.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @BlackyWarsX.5384 said:
    That's still not actual templates, but I've given up hope of having an actual, good template system in place.

    I really, really don't understand what is the problem? You can swap the full equipment and the full build to any of the 6 preset at any time while out of combat. There is nothing more change than build and items so you can have full control to swap. What in the world is the problem here? it's fantastic.

    It's loadouts, not templates. I want to change stuff around without it saving after every change. I would like to reset to the initially saved template if I don't like the changes or just wanna try some stuff or just need a different weapon for the situation without having to keep the hero window open at all times. It gives no opportunity to link a build to a equipment loadout (and, lets face it, both depend heavily on each other).

    There is so much feedback in this thread, that the only answer to your question is: read this thread. It has so much potential to be a solid, good working feature and right now it's wasted on the most easy implementation that limits it at the same time. Not talking about the heavy monetization, nobody expected it for free, people always said they would pay money for it - but not triple per character.

    I can see what you are saying with the saved option for templates. I don't think that would be impossible to change for them, to give an option to enabling them to only be saved when you manually request that. I definitely thin one day you will see also 1 key possible for gear/build, else as i mention you can handle that yourself atm.

    And while some may want a huge number, i think a number between 6-10 is probably best for the game so people don't got 20-30 different builds and changing all the time to maximize their advantage compared to others for every little possible situation. Sometimes what's best for people is just that everyone have to adapt to the same limitation instead of trying to create ultimate freedom.

    But really i just love them, i don't have any issues to have my builds and if i need 1 changed trait for something or swapping a trait line then i do that, it's no biggie to me whatsoever. These are first world problems, things people can only complain about when there are no real problems to compain about. You are super spoiled here in GW2 because the devs do care.

    You can see how far they went to make sure a lot of situations were covered, how items can be used across setups, legendary integration etc. A lot of things have been considered and done that many games might have never tried to. You have it really good here, so be mindful of calling their templates and more things massive failures because they really are not(a lot of people say something along those lines).

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    The implementation as is right now is not defensible - the equipment templates as designed; especially the equipment loadouts are a failure. They have not given anything - 2 equipment loadout slots; If I'm running a Chrono the amount of equipment loadouts I require is > 6. The maximum the game allows is 6 for a character - I cannot save them outside the game, they are prohibitively expensive still. How it has been handled so far without listening to player feedback from those that have been asking for this for a long time has been poor. There is no doubt that the "devs" do care - however, I would not agree we are super spoiled and these are massive problems for those who wish to play higher end content. For the people who run a couple of builds (e.g. 2) with minor changes; great - it works.. .for those with many builds (which is a lot of the more skilled players tbf) the system is despicable.

    Six months is a decent amount of time to implement something that remedies the situation - the ability to save/parse/load the equipment loadout externally would be a minimal fix from a player perspective and go a long way to restoring the conversation between the player and publishers.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭

    I can see your point in ways, but what you are saying is exagerated and parts of it are plain false.

    They have given "something". They are an integrated part of the game not requiring a third party software, and they store equipment inside them so you save inventory/bank. Both massive things. I have played this game only for a few years, and currently i have 5-7 builds for my mesmer, and other chars only a few. And i am absolutely fine having to decide which are the essential builds to me.

    I also think they cover the need of the vast majority of players - the ones who have 10-20+ builds for a char or more are not many(only few top % of players) and they are better off using third party software and save themselves a serious amount of time/money to get enough gems. I tried googling it i think it is still allowed. But i guess if money isn't a problem, ingame would be better.

    Also, you might ask yourself why do games usually limit saved builds to 2 or 3? Is this because of randomness or lack of foresight? Most often it is a deliberate decision to frame the playing experience in a way to give a better average player experience and manage expectations. For example dps meters doesn't make a game better for the majority of players, it makes it worse for majority because it empowers elitism. Granted, it is an essential tool if you are a serious guild needing to evaluate your own as well as your member performance - but letting it be a integrated tool would infuse the game with elitism and not desireable.

    Maybe you should just accept that templates are made for the majority and not the elite, and to really be max optimizing elite you gotta get that third party program for dps and builds. You will save yourself a lot of gems that way too.

    Now obviously you might say - but what it the problem? Why don't they just allow me to keep buying gear templates if i want to do that as many as i want. New players don't need to see in interface they are infinite and then arenanet will earn more? Why dont they just give me a setting to choose if i want to only save templates when i specifically chose to save? Why can't i set the same hotkey for the gear and build templates? - and i would agree with you that they should do that. But they will mostly do that to reach out the elite players, the templates work very well for the majority of players. Honestly i do hope they make these changes for you, but for all i care these templates are amazing and i enjoy them every day and despire all these nay-sayers i see everywhere- and they do have a lot of value, but i can see if you are super serious they may be lacking. The current remedy is to make another characer which can hold more builds. I think you can expect one day that they will do the 3 changes:

    • Option to only save when chosen
    • More purchasable build slots
    • One hotkey for gear/builld

    And one could suggest them a system where the cost of successive build templates was decreasing.