Forced to grind levels, even on a paid account?

[ConorT.5396]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any' laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.

Still, best of luck.

Maybe it worked 6 years ago, when people were enjoying the generic MMORPG - but what I am focused on is making GW2 last another 8 years.

Not what worked yesterday.

And I am sorry that the thing that is going to make the game continue to grow is reverting back to a previous layout of allowing players freedom, but that is the case.

Loose your niche, loose your potential customers.

[ConorT.5396]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any, laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.If ArenaNet felt the need to change it, they would have when they updated the NPE just recently.

Still, best of luck.

And people are not going to spend time complaining if they only spend 2 days in the game, get bored and decide to leave.

You veteran players are been genuinely selfish in not thinking what the NEW PLAYER wants in this game.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

So, you are saying no new players in the last 6+ years had the wherewithal to come to the forums and express their dissatisfaction?
If all the new players left over this, how is it you have 400 members in your Guild? All veterans? Something doesn't add up here.
If you are so gung-ho over helping ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2, instead of feeding these 'new players' discontent, why don't you show the 'new players' all the other things Guild Wars 2 has to offer. Show them how easy it is to gain XP (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Experience#Gaining_experience ), encourage them, show them they can travel to other maps, and enjoy the breadth of content in GW2.

[Astyrah.4015]

@ConorT.5396 said:

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:Well, since it has not changed in 6+ years, and there has been very few, if any, laments about it, I don't see it changing from a post created by someone that hasn't played in 7 years and isn't that familiar with the game.If ArenaNet felt the need to change it, they would have when they updated the NPE just recently.

Still, best of luck.

And people are not going to spend time complaining if they only spend 2 days in the game, get bored and decide to leave.

You veteran players are been genuinely selfish in not thinking what the NEW PLAYER wants in this game.

though it doesn't get the majority or ArenaNet's attention, i often see a lot of new players in reddit's r/MMORPG and r/Guildwars2 who either fall in love at first sight with the game --or-- get lost/bored and give up on the first hour ... these people usually make posts describing their experience whether good or bad.

i think there isn't a right or wrong way to implement a "New Player Experience" into the game, whatever Anet would do, it will end up both being approved and disapproved by their players (either majority or minority)... there's just no way you can please every single person/client

[ConorT.5396]

@"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:So, you are saying no new players in the last 6+ years had the wherewithal to come to the forums and express their dissatisfaction?

If all the new players left over this, how is it you have 400 members in your Guild? All veterans? Something doesn't add up here.

If you are so gung-ho over helping ArenaNet and Guild Wars 2, instead of feeding these 'new players' discontent, why don't you show the 'new players' all the other things Guild Wars 2 has to offer. Show them how easy it is to gain XP (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Experience#Gaining_experience ), encourage them, show them they can travel to other maps, and enjoy the breadth of content in GW2.

Last response for now, as I need to go to work but I suggest EVERYONE keeps discussing this to get aNet's attention to this issue.

My point was, someone who has been put off the game within the first 3/4 hours of game play because they were forced to grind terrible repetitive quests to unlock the story line, no way - they are not going to get involved in the community, they are not going to voice their opinion. Why would they?

You are missing the entire point of what I am saying, Guild Wars has been, and always will be about STORY TELLING.

Never in my experience in Guild Wars have I been forced to grind something I DID NOT WANT TOO - just to get somewhere or something to make me on-level with another player.

I completely understand how this was restricted to Free to play accounts, that is not what is in discussion here.

I have never "fed" a player discontent, and your assumption is not only patronising but insulting.

You are missing my entire point, so can you please re-read my original post & if you have any response which has benefit to the discussion please add it, but currently you are saying "Deal with the grind, or not play". Which is completely against what I am trying to achieve here.

New players, forced to grind - dated, repetitive and boring quests that are out-shined by every other modern MMORPG.

Grind at end-game, do not grind before the new player has even got to the interesting part of the game.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

No offense, but I I can't help getting the distinct feeling that new players are much better off exploring what the game has to offer on their own than being anywhere near you.

[battledrone.8315]

what modern mmo has those fantastic new quests? and even IF you find one, then it fails horribly in some other ways.mmos are repetitive by nature, milking cows is actually breaking that formula...it is something DIFFEERENTthis game has the non_grindiest levelling proces i have EVER seen

[Etria.3642]

I am, frankly, going to blame this on how you put it to your friends. Because when I brought mine over, we were approximately level 15 before they were even ready to do the story. Instead we were bouncing all over, go here, do this, try that, comecomecomecome, (Now, I do admit, I have a few hearts that I particularly like because they are funny as anything, and so different from the usual fetch quests/kill quests other games have.) In fact, your strong dislike of hearts is undoubtedly off-putting to your friends, while for mine, hearts were one of their favorite things. Mine came from SWTOR and ESO and FFXIV and hearts are a huge difference.

Because, let's face it, if the ONLY THING EVER you guys want to do is story, there isn't all that much of it. Even with all of /everything/ there isn't that much. You play through a new chapter in an hour, maybe two, and that's it for 2-5 months. So hopefully there is something else you enjoy about the game. If there is, introduce them to THAT while leveling. Because also...it takes like 20 minutes to level to 10. It sure takes a lot longer between 40 and 50.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@"ConorT.5396" said:

I can remember my joy of escorting the pack-bull through Queensdale.

I wouldn't do that now.

But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

And this is where your worries are proven to be misplaced. Yes, many players come from other games with over a decade's worth of true grinding experience. The amount of repetition needed to fill a heart or fill a few early levels hardly qualifies as "grinding" at all, compared to most other games these days. Anyone who's done any actual grinding will recognize that GW2 has very little of it, and certainly not in the sky-is-falling levels that you're going on about.

[Danikat.8537]

I regularly level new characters and play with new/low level players (both my friends and strangers) and the only way I could see this being an issue is if you're expecting to do literally nothing but the personal story until it's completed, which isn't at all how the game is designed. If you do that you're also going to have the problem that the game will appear very light on PvE content, because the vast majority of it is not in the main story, it's in the open-world maps. (There's also dungeons, fractals and raids of course, but since those are mainly designed for repetition it also wouldn't take long to get through them all once and then you'd be back to grinding.)

I suppose you could declare all open-world content to be grinding and only necessary to gain levels for the story and then yes, it probably will seem boring. But the alternative approach is to see it as content in it's own right and play it appropriately, the same way you would the story. Talk to the heart NPCs before doing a heart - they'll tell you about the area and why they need your help, talk to them afterwards and they'll give you more info (they're also karma merchants who sell some useful items). Listen to the dialogue when doing events, and stick around for a bit afterwards to see if another event starts up - many of them chain together and tell their own stories. In some cases events across the map will all tie in together, either in meta-events or simply because they're all dealing with different aspects of the same problem. Similarly there are NPCs who can give you hints that will send you off on unmarked 'side quests' to find things like jumping puzzles and mini dungeons, or simply give you more lore and info about the area and what's going on there. There's a lot of stories in this game which are not labelled in huge green letters and pushed on you, and if you try to rush through it all as quickly as possible to focus on the most obviously sign-posted content you've seen you're going to be disappointed because you're going to miss the majority of the game.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Danikat.8537 said:I regularly level new characters and play with new/low level players (both my friends and strangers) and the only way I could see this being an issue is if you're expecting to do literally nothing but the personal story until it's completed, which isn't at all how the game is designed. If you do that you're also going to have the problem that the game will appear very light on PvE content, because the vast majority of it is not in the main story, it's in the open-world maps. (There's also dungeons, fractals and raids of course, but since those are mainly designed for repetition it also wouldn't take long to get through them all once and then you'd be back to grinding.)

I suppose you could declare all open-world content to be grinding and only necessary to gain levels for the story and then yes, it probably will seem boring. But the alternative approach is to see it as content in it's own right and play it appropriately, the same way you would the story. Talk to the heart NPCs before doing a heart - they'll tell you about the area and why they need your help, talk to them afterwards and they'll give you more info (they're also karma merchants who sell some useful items). Listen to the dialogue when doing events, and stick around for a bit afterwards to see if another event starts up - many of them chain together and tell their own stories. In some cases events across the map will all tie in together, either in meta-events or simply because they're all dealing with different aspects of the same problem. Similarly there are NPCs who can give you hints that will send you off on unmarked 'side quests' to find things like jumping puzzles and mini dungeons, or simply give you more lore and info about the area and what's going on there. There's a lot of stories in this game which are not labelled in huge green letters and pushed on you, and if you try to rush through it all as quickly as possible to focus on the most obviously sign-posted content you've seen you're going to be disappointed because you're going to miss the majority of the game....

...and the 'story' of Tyria.

[Antycypator.9874]

@Mil.3562 said:You call that grinding? Wait till you try to get the mount Skyscale. It's kind of ridiculous to lock a mount under such intensive grinding thus discouraging many veterans from getting it. They could have made it much less 'grindy' like all previous mounts and many more players will make an effort to get it, and ANet will definitely sell more skins for the dragon. Win-win. I wonder who is their marketing head.

Now almost every thing is grind-to-get. Even LWS, these days playing through the story is not good enough. You have to grind for mastery points, grind for days or weeks in order to get a long list of achievements required to unlock the new stuffs from the story.

Grinding is content in GW2. Yes, it's in this state now. The last leg.

You call it grinding? Doing something for a week (still time gated and repeatable stuff, but nothing grindy). People don't know what is grinding in games. Skyscale was ez quest.Who would play GW2 and for what if you could get everything without any effort?

[Omega.6801]

It's called the "New Player Experience" and it's a terrible experience for new players. GG ANet.

[ConorT.5396]

Bottom-line, from my point of view as a Guild Wars player since GW1 launch.

This "New Player Experience" was put in place to "incentivize" new players to buy HoF & PoF to get their level 80 boost.

In the process, it has taken away what made Guild Wars feel fresh, flowing & free.

If this was a "New Player Experience" - anyone who had a level 80 on their account would not be forced into that level-gate.

Anyone arguing that "It improves the game experience" - I doubt you ever played before this was introduced, as Guild Wars 2 was an amazingly structured game that did not require to nanny you in that way for you to learn, explore & naturally progress through the content offered.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"ConorT.5396" said:Bottom-line, from my point of view as a Guild Wars player since GW1 launch.

This "New Player Experience" was put in place to "incentivize" new players to buy HoF & PoF to get their level 80 boost.

In the process, it has taken away what made Guild Wars feel fresh, flowing & free.

If this was a "New Player Experience" - anyone who had a level 80 on their account would not be forced into that level-gate.

Yes, Arenanet implemented the New Player Experience years before they added the level 80 boosts only to sell those. Wish I had such foresight.

For reference, the NPE was added in September of 2014:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/110482/forced-to-grind-levels-even-on-a-paid-account#latest

HoT, and with it the first level 80 boosts, released 1 year later:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2:_Heart_of_Thorns

@"ConorT.5396" said:Anyone arguing that "It improves the game experience" - I doubt you ever played before this was introduced, as Guild Wars 2 was an amazingly structured game that did not require to nanny you in that way for you to learn, explore & naturally progress through the content offered.

Not a single person has argued that the system now improves the player experience, so I am unsure why you keep bringing this up. Most people simply do not share your concern or panic.

[kharmin.7683]

@ConorT.5396 said:

Please, I will leave you to go get the stats - for when each server had separate instances (before the mega server) - and Queensdale was full of 100+ people starting, exploring & excited.Well, to be fair, there was the whole Queensdale champ train that seemed to run 24/7, which might have accounted for a significant portion of the population then.

EDIT: which, IIRC, was a turn off for new players in Anet's eyes which is why those champs were nerfed. I spend a lot of time in starter zones and haven't seen the population near to where it was. Are those zones busy? Sure, but not crowded like during the train days.

[ConorT.5396]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:Bottom-line, from my point of view as a Guild Wars player since GW1 launch.

This "New Player Experience" was put in place to "incentivize" new players to buy HoF & PoF to get their level 80 boost.

In the process, it has taken away what made Guild Wars feel fresh, flowing & free.

If this was a "New Player Experience" - anyone who had a level 80 on their account would not be forced into that level-gate.

Yes, Arenanet implemented the New Player Experience years before they added the level 80 boosts only to sell those. Wish I had such foresight.

Clearly you do not work in the marketing department for an online game.

They have these sort of tactics road-mapped, sometimes years ahead.

[Yggranya.5201]

@"lokh.2695" said:It's called the "New Player Experience" and it's a terrible experience for new players. GG ANet.

I had fun when i started. Exploring, doing hearts and events. Of couse, now that i have done them a hunderd times, it is pretty dull leveling a new character.What is bad about the "New Player Experience"?

[kratan.4619]

Geez, this guy should calm down, this is just a game. I don't think attacking anyone that disagrees with you will be gaining you any support. Apparently you have just encountered the fact that you have to level to 10 to start the personal story and that the story has been broken up into every ten levels increments, the way it has been since Sep 2014. So you apparently have not played the game since before Sep 2014, else you would know that the changes were made. So you return to the game and feel the need to scream loudly about a 5+ year old change because you are personally upset about it and feel the game needs to change for you, not for the benefit of the game, just for you personally.

[Stelawrat.6589]

@ConorT.5396 said:

@"AgentMoore.9453" said:snip

But I think more than likely, the issue is that people that are NOW joining the game have already experienced this grind before on another MMORPG - and do not want to experience it again.

If Guild Wars 2 wants to increase their player base, they do not want to be gating the best part of their content behind Milking Cows (Which literally just has the character doing a dance Emote - Really?)

With respect, you keep referencing the fact that both yourself & the new players you're interested in bringing to the game, are experienced MMORPG players. I don't doubt this at all, but because of that fact, it leaves me wondering why then, would they not expect "grind" in any other mmorpg, including GW2? That doesn't make sense, especially as this "grind" is negligible in comparison to many other games.

You've also referenced this multiple times now, this business with the cows. You and your friends are experienced mmorpg players & you're referring to something that literally takes less than 5 minutes to complete & if you want, you don't have to "entertain" the cows at all, if that's particularly offensive to you & your friends. :pensive:

I'm just a little old lady who has played a ton of games & honestly, not at all particularly well by anyone's standards. I'm in awe of players who take into account all of the statistical information, all of the minute details involved in honing their characters to be the best. I've lost track of how many characters I've leveled to 50s, 60s, & a couple to 80, by playing through all of the content & then deleted them for various reasons.

I don't regret doing this, because I don't consider it to be a challenge to level a character in GW2. So if a sub-par player such as myself can do this, then I really don't understand why players such as yourself, would be concerned with this at all, especially as you've said you're players who have bought the game.

If your friends try GW2 using a free account, without access to Lion's Arch until level 35, then that's a bit painful, but it hasn't stopped me from deleting characters on my f2p accounts as well. Your friends will have to "grind" a little harder though, but everything else remains the same, the play through is just as immersive, or not if that's what they prefer.

You seem like passionate players, so I hope you all stick around, explore & enjoy the game, the good & the bad. Good luck!

[Shadowmoon.7986]

This has to be a troll thread, complaining about leveling, a staple of rpgs for at least 4 decades.

[Stelawrat.6589]

@AgentMoore.9453 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:I am telling you this from 3 months of spending hours a day in Queensdale & Kessex Hills.

Oh god, no wonder you're so passionate.

Don't do that

. Nobody deserves three months of Queensdale.

Queensdale is a map you can complete in under a single hour and that's by just trotting around doing basic renown hearts and exploring. Everything you do contributes toward your leveling, even walking around and finding new nooks, mining ore, chopping down trees, and punching the odd Moa bird in the beak. This kind of 'rewarded no matter how you choose to play' approach is absolutely what early GW2 is about. ..but even then, that's just one map. There are SO many more open to you, and the UI even points them out with messages like 'new adventures await you in x map!'

As a new player, I delighted in exploration. For the sake of your brainmeats, branch out to different maps! Explore, talk to NPCs with dialogue options, turn on your ambient noise and listen to the chatter in towns, challenge your friends to see who can climb to the top of a building the fastest, goof off! You'll level without noticing and have a far greater appreciation for the game than if you narrowly focus on leveling.

Even if all level gating was removed, it would still be my advice to meander around the game and let yourself appreciate the world. Doing this makes the story more meaningful and it'll help you invest emotions into the characters you meet along the way. If experiencing story is your primary goal in GW2, this kind of world-investment becomes even more important.

This pretty much sums up how I love to play any game, but this game in particular because, depending on how much attention I give while doing this, there are subtle changes in my home instance, or in my "interactions" with NPCs. Also, it never fails to surprise me how much new content I discover, while playing through an area at a different time of the day, or in a different rotation, or by jumping into an event that I hadn't participated in previously. Judging by those experiences, I know that there is much that I haven't discovered & maybe never will. :anguished:

[Donutdude.9582]

@"ConorT.5396" said:So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

Is this the way is it suppose to be? It wasn't like this at launch.

Guild Wars, all the way back to Prophecies has never been about grinding repetitive quests for levels.

Why has aNet done this? Do they not see this is driving potential new players away because this is not a generic MMORPG and personal story should not be gated by level.

Its absolute madness.

The only part of your post that made sense is the "It wasn't like this at launch" part.

This game does not force you to grind at all when it comes to personal story. It encourages you to explore the world instead of blitzing through the story, which you both should be doing if you are looking to enjoy the game world in its entirety. If you are viewing it as a grind, you either need to adjust your mindset or admit that this game is not for you.

[ConorT.5396]

@Donutdude.9582 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:So, I have not naturally levelled a character in over 7 years.

I started a play-through with my friend today, starting from scratch - both on Paid accounts & it appears we are forced to grind to the "recommended level" to continue the personal story?

Is this the way is it suppose to be? It wasn't like this at launch.

Guild Wars, all the way back to Prophecies has never been about grinding repetitive quests for levels.

Why has aNet done this? Do they not see this is driving potential new players away because this is not a generic MMORPG and personal story should not be gated by level.

Its absolute madness.

The only part of your post that made sense is the "It wasn't like this at launch" part.

This game does not force you to grind at all when it comes to personal story. It encourages you to explore the world instead of blitzing through the story, which you both should be doing if you are looking to enjoy the game world in its entirety. If you are viewing it as a grind, you either need to adjust your mindset or admit that this game is not for you.

Or that aNet ruined Guild Wars 2's niche and got in line with the rest of the MMO's in the world by forcing people down a specific route of play & removing freedom.

Yes.

[Linken.6345]

@ConorT.5396You can go kill centaurs, bandits, stone elementals, harpys or drakes.For that heart about milking cows there is an event that spawn a wrum queen or bandit attack that try to burn the hay bales+ your friend can stomp the wurm mounds to get the wurm enemies to spawn instead if they want or water the wiltering crops.

If they dont like that heart why not take them to the bandit one further west on the map or the stone elemental/harpy one north east or the spider egg that spawn spiders to the north?

And on a side not why have you never gathered any its a very profitable activity both in coin and exp when in low level maps.Since you dont craft you could have sold all the materials to other players over 7 years.