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Soulbeast is not an issue. "Sic 'Em!" is.

Shroud.2307

By Shroud.2307
in World vs. World

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DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

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Lan Deathrider.5910

Lan Deathrider.5910

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@DeathPanel.8362 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

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DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@DeathPanel.8362 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

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DeathPanel.8362

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

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Lan Deathrider.5910

Lan Deathrider.5910

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@DeathPanel.8362 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

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DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

First your understanding of c++ is off. Data member and member functions can be added. A simple “throwable” Boolean. Why would you need to define a new class?

Secondly the throwable logic based on flag already exists. The skill used to be only throwable if a trait was taken. All they need to do is to change the check on the trait to check on current game mode and modify the skill tooltip wording to reflect that.

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DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

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@Bezerker.2379 said:Sicem is not a problem at all. Soulbeast's kit allows you to run full tank gear and still have decent offensive stats and passive healing.Not really. With full tank gear the dmg is pretty bad. I have such a ranger build. The only way to be effective is build for burst single target dps in wvw and that’s a niche role. I got 3 rangers with different build types and I’ve tested them in wvw to reach that conclusion.

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Lan Deathrider.5910

Lan Deathrider.5910

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@DeathPanel.8362 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

First your understanding of c++ is off. Data member and member functions can be added. A simple “throwable” Boolean. Why would you need to define a new class?

Secondly the throwable logic based on flag already exists. The skill used to be only throwable if a trait was taken. All they need to do is to change the check on the trait to check on current game mode and modify the skill tooltip wording to reflect that.

I have seen questionable C++ programming by others in my line of work. Trust me. It really depends on how they coded the original stuff. If they Fubared it then it may very well be impossible to split functionality between game modes beyond just numbers. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you haven't read decade old legacy code that used outdated coding practices at the time it was written.

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DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

First your understanding of c++ is off. Data member and member functions can be added. A simple “throwable” Boolean. Why would you need to define a new class?

Secondly the throwable logic based on flag already exists. The skill used to be only throwable if a trait was taken. All they need to do is to change the check on the trait to check on current game mode and modify the skill tooltip wording to reflect that.

I have seen questionable C++ programming by others in my line of work. Trust me. It really depends on how they coded the original stuff. If they Fubared it then it may very well be impossible to split functionality between game modes beyond just numbers. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you haven't read decade old legacy code that used outdated coding practices at the time it was written.

Been in the industry for almost 20 years and seen some trash code but never any that can’t be worked around technically.

There’s already skill differences between different game modes on the same skill so it’s obviously possible.

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Zexanima.7851

Zexanima.7851

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@DeathPanel.8362 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

First your understanding of c++ is off. Data member and member functions can be added. A simple “throwable” Boolean. Why would you need to define a new class?

Secondly the throwable logic based on flag already exists. The skill used to be only throwable if a trait was taken. All they need to do is to change the check on the trait to check on current game mode and modify the skill tooltip wording to reflect that.

I have seen questionable C++ programming by others in my line of work. Trust me. It really depends on how they coded the original stuff. If they Fubared it then it may very well be impossible to split functionality between game modes beyond just numbers. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you haven't read decade old legacy code that used outdated coding practices at the time it was written.

Been in the industry for almost 20 years and seen some trash code but never any that can’t be worked around technically.

There’s already skill differences between different game modes on the same skill so it’s obviously possible.

This guy gets it. I got hired at my current job to redesign a system that was 10 years old and replace it with a brand new one. In that process I've had to go back and create fixes for the currently implementation. Is it always easy? No. Is it possible? Anything is possible with software if you're smart enough. I feel like Anet saying they can't do a thing is their way of saying "Management wouldn't give us the time/money to fix a thing".

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Lan Deathrider.5910

Lan Deathrider.5910

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Throwing traps would be nice, but that would have interesting interaction with trapper runes.

This used to be the case. They nerfed the skills by making them not throwable anymore at some point around the release of HOT I recall. I think they did it to balance them for pvp. They should’ve only made the change for pvp.

Probably easier to do that than spit that sort of thing between game modes though.

It killed a whole line of viable ranger builds for wvw and pve just so they can balance pvp.

Not saying that wasn't the case, just point out that code change might not have been possible though. They are infamous for spaghetti code.

Unless they got monkeys doing coding I’m pretty sure it can be done. It’s literally just an if/else or switch scenario. It’s most likely a case of laziness and not technical limitation.

Devs have outright stated before that they cannot split the functionality of a skill between the modes. They can only do number splits (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

There’s no such thing when it comes to coding. It could be as simple as checking a single variable. (If ispvp = 1 then set throwable = 0) for example. Previously the throw only works when a trait is chosen so they already have the logic to be able to turn it off and on based on a flag. It’s not that they can’t. They won’t. Whether it’s a design decision or just laziness is unknown. But they can certainly implement it technically if they wanted to.

Well that depends on how they coded it right? It could be something like each of the skills being a c++ class and splitting the skills would require a separate class to be made for it along with checks for game mode. Conceptually, yeah you would think a simple if/else could work, but without knowing the language they used and in what way the skills are coded in you don't really know the extent they would have to go to implement that fix.

First your understanding of c++ is off. Data member and member functions can be added. A simple “throwable” Boolean. Why would you need to define a new class?

Secondly the throwable logic based on flag already exists. The skill used to be only throwable if a trait was taken. All they need to do is to change the check on the trait to check on current game mode and modify the skill tooltip wording to reflect that.

I have seen questionable C++ programming by others in my line of work. Trust me. It really depends on how they coded the original stuff. If they Fubared it then it may very well be impossible to split functionality between game modes beyond just numbers. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you haven't read decade old legacy code that used outdated coding practices at the time it was written.

Been in the industry for almost 20 years and seen some trash code but never any that can’t be worked around technically.

There’s already skill differences between different game modes on the same skill so it’s obviously possible.

This guy gets it. I got hired at my current job to redesign a system that was 10 years old and replace it with a brand new one. In that process I've had to go back and create fixes for the currently implementation. Is it always easy? No. Is it possible? Anything is possible with software if you're smart enough. I feel like Anet saying they can't do a thing is their way of saying "Management wouldn't give us the time/money to fix a thing".

Given sufficient time and money all problems are solvable. I did say that it depended on how fcked up the original code is. It could be so bad that it takes 1 man year of LOE to fix, which may be why it gets tossed to the backburner. If the original Ranger Coders had forethought (lol) it would be modular and a very easy swap.

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ZhouX.8742

ZhouX.8742

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@derd.6413 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

its more like rangers trying their hardest to convince ppl that their obviously op builds aren't bad for the game, and that we should look the other way since this class is a special victim with special privileges.

Yet no serious WvW groups want rangers.. sic em
or not
though... The same as its been for the last 7 years.

since it's more of a solo build then a group build

The "or not" indicates that non sic em ranger builds are also unwanted by WvW groups.

Not core builds. Not Druid builds. Not SBeast.

ranger has no good group builds for WvW, yes. you're point? just because ranger doesn't have many viable builds in WvW doesn't mean that the few builds he has can't be "OP"

The point is WvW is a large group based game mode by nature. It's 90% large scale on it's face surface and was never geared around roaming and 10% other activities like micro and then there's roaming - in fact roaming for the MOST PART is dead nowadays.

This is not the fault of ANY roaming builds including soulbeast... So we could essentially just say to nerf all roaming builds in general literally because they're all overpowered for their style of play.

The reality is, in large scale they're laughed at , and that's all that matters and are a non-issue in the essential meta of the game mode itself... Because you got killed by a roaming soulbeast or a roaming class in general doesn't mean anything really.

You're essentially asking to nerf one build , even one skill based around the fact that it thrives in what would be 5% of ONE game mode that is also a dying game mode and nowhere else.

Does that seem fair to you?

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MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

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The issue is not Sic'em, but what makes it appear as the issue since it's exacerbated by Sic'Em: stacking damage bonuses also stacking with critical damage.

If critical damage was considered its own individual damage bonus and stacking damage bonuses affected only the base damage, critical hits would not get so much out of hand.

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slasc.3260

slasc.3260

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

"Sic 'Em!" increases pet damage by 40% and when merged, has the same effect on the Soulbeast. 40% is an absolutely enormous damage increase for a single button push. It is a build defining skill for longbow Soulbeasts and contributes significantly to it's burst potential. However, it does not effect core Ranger or Druid, only Soulbeast. Therefore, I believe the most appropriate way to reduce the lethality of Soulbeast without effecting Ranger or Druid, and without making Soulbeast ineffective as a specialization, is to do the following;Reduce the percentage increase to either 10 or 15%, or do not allow "Sic 'Em!" to effect the Soulbeast while merged at all. Soulbeast, and Ranger in general, still have many damage modifiers and will still be capable snipers without this skill. It will also promote some diversity in that it will allow players who want to snipe to choose Soulbeast and players who want to play Longbow but want to 1v1 to choose core Ranger.

My main class is Ranger, and I love the Soulbeast. I support this idea. Soulbeast is doing too much damage too quickly right now.

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EremiteAngel.9765

EremiteAngel.9765

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@"Anput.4620" said:Yet glassbeast still get trashed by actual good roaming builds like sword rev, condi mes, holo, prot holo, boonbeast, regular balanced longbow, any thief build, sword weaver.

But yeah just necros complaining.

Firstly, allow me to say that every class needs their damage shaved. Even Necros. This isn’t just a Soulbeast problem.

Secondly, I’m sad that I see many posts directly or indirectly citing that Necros are the main group of players complaining about Soulbeasts.

You know what? Necros have always been disadvantaged against Rangers since the dawn of time that many of us have come to accept their oppression over us in open field.

Rangers oppress Necros like 90-10 bad in open field. From Druids with their knock back and entangle to Soulbeasts with their high DPS and increased mobility.

We fully expect a losing fight when we encounter a ranger in open field and any little reprieve we can get against them makes us very thankful.

What reprieves have we found?

Back in HOT, Foot in the Grave worked to prevent root and allow us to gap close on Druids. This made fights more manageable like 70-30 in the Druid’s favour but we were happy that we could still put up a fight.

Now in POF, mounts plus FiTG has given us the same reprieve against Soulbeasts. Being able to start a fight near them makes a world of difference. And again, that little reprieve handed out to us makes us very thankful.

I would believe that Necros who have accepted their disadvantages against Rangers and who are thankful for every small reprieve they get, aren’t the major group complaining about Soulbeasts now.

When I stand and watch groups of players dueling, I see thieves, holosmiths, spellbreakers complaining about Soulbeasts when they lose.

Necros? No. They duel a Soulbeast, gets beaten in under 10 seconds and runs back to the group with an accepting chuckle.

Necros vs Rangers in open field has always been a mountain to overcome and we have Long been accepting of our fate.

To imply that we are the ‘main’ ones complaining just makes me sad.

I am a Necro and I’ve been defending Soulbeasts ever since mounts were introduced.

That small reprieve makes me thankful and I don’t ask for much except to be able to put up a 70-30 struggle against them.

And struggle we have. Soulbeasts got to work a little harder now if they want to get us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tylk9xY6TIY

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Henrik.7560

Henrik.7560

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Reduce sic em modifier to 15%.. Buff some traits like the one that gives 10% to targets with lower health make it 15 or 20% to be in line with traits like bolt to the heart, 20% vs <50% or just make it the same as that..etcRanger needs a rework to fix a lot of skills broken with soulbeast

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Brother.1504

Brother.1504

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@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Let's just be honest here. Like Thief, everybody just wants Rangers to be deleted from the game. Ranger has never really had a solid place in WvW. Whenever it starts to get some kind of toe-hold, everybody cries for nerfs. People just plain hate Rangers. At this point we should just all call for Guardians, Warriors, and Elementalists to be the only classes that should play WvW. Warriors for their meat-shield, Elementalists for their DPS, and Guardians for their Heals. That's what everybody really wants. That "Holy Trinity" that makes all MMOs so wonderful to play. Anything else is just too....................weird.

I’m ok with rangers because being powerful if it gets them back them back into the meta. Besides it’s not as bad as people whine about. In the last month of wvw resets I have only been 100-0 by a ranger a few times, same with the thief. Loads of times by Condi Mesmers, rampage warriors, and stealthed Holosmiths.

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