no one plays raids

[Klowdy.3126]

3 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

make raids casual and open world for players, make the easy mode auto join and make raids so people can join this mode with out a problem, you can lower the difficulty and  lower the loot depending of the difficulty.  hard core players are the  low bar off this game so make the casual players have a chance to play raids, another idea is too give players a pve way to have legendary armor, maybe raids or fractal armor or living world armor. 

How can you say "lower the loot," then follow it up with "give players a PvE way to have legendary armor?" Either loot is lowered, or legendary gear is mailed to every single account, because what's the point of waiting now that raids are soloable? PvP is pretty easy, most people aren't even actual people. You're gonna have to put forth at least a little effort in order to obtain the best gear, and the last set you will ever need.

[Heaven.4530]

Unpopular opinion : the raids are actually pretty easy. Never try to do endgame content in ffxiv if you think gw2 raids are hard. 

The problem is the kp system. People ask for a million kp so unless you have a guild that does raids you will only be able to join training groups of people who don't even bother to learn how to play their class or watch a video to actually know what to do in the fight. 

[Gehenna.3625]

5 minutes ago, Heaven.4530 said:

Unpopular opinion : the raids are actually pretty easy. Never try to do endgame content in ffxiv if you think gw2 raids are hard. 

Well it may be unpopular but it is your perspective. The truth is that what's easy and what's difficult differs from person to person. 

5 minutes ago, Heaven.4530 said:

The problem is the kp system. People ask for a million kp so unless you have a guild that does raids you will only be able to join training groups of people who don't even bother to learn how to play their class or watch a video to actually know what to do in the fight. 

I suspect that there are guilds still that have training runs, but finding those may be harder. This kp system that you refer sounds like it makes it harder indeed for the accessibility of raids to those who do want to get in.

[misterman.1530]

I don't raid. Never have. It's not that I am intimidated by the content - far from it. I just don't have the luxury of playing this game on a set schedule. Raiding requires you to coordinate the schedules of a large group of players. Perhaps I could just jump in and LFG at any time, but why would I - doing that even in fractals usually ends in frustration. 

So, to the OP's point - I don't think they should make raids more accessible - but I do agree that more open world content should allow you to get legendaries. Raids are difficult, but really, to get a legendary in PVP and WVW is not difficult - just grindy. You don't need to be good at either, you just need to participate. But, and correct me if I am wrong, not so with Raids.

So, why not have the ability to grind out what you need in open world PVE? Where's the harm in that? Now, I am not advocating the Type 2 Legendary weapon grind - those were ill conceived and so, so boring (plus you had to do fractals, which are not for everyone). But something like this Return to...  (for the legendary amulet) - a bit more involved and focussed, yes, but open world.

[Cyndercat.7615]

Im sick of this constant argument that raids are dead because their playerbase is too low. When raids came out, player participation was much higher than anet ever anticipated. Raids died because anet pulled people from raid team to work on delayed living world episodes and then merged raid and fractal team, doubling time between instanced content releases. If you give less than 1 update to a game mode a year, yes players will be bored and leave. Its anet's fault raids died, due to focusing so hard on living world, and living world only.

[Svarty.8019]

2 hours ago, Zentao.6314 said:

Elite? You mean people who know how their classes works?

TBH, yes. The 3% figure might even be generous.

 

The classes are HARD to learn, friend. No joke.

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

Getting a full set of legendary armor whilst loosing every game would take a looooooong time. And still dealing with ranked games is an effort comparable to raids in my opinion. I’m just not sure what OW legendary requirements should be. Possibly skyscale - kind of collections which people moan about (mostly the causual pve players).

Inaccessible and weakly designed endgame is a problem but the pve player base being so used to buy everything off TP or faceroll grind while doing an open world content is a problem too - these two worlds just cannot be married.

 

You're on a team with five people and at low levels of PvP there's often no coordination. I'm not a PvP whiz or anything but I win about 50% of my game.  It's almost random because the sides are random.  It hasn't taken me that long to get a piece of PvP ascended armor, and I have to say, it's just time, nothing else. It's not skill.  It would take you about 3 times longer if you lost every game than if you won every game. That's it.  But you're not likely to lose every game because you're not the only one on your team.

I can play 3 PvP games a day and eventually have a piece of legendary armor, with very little investment.  But the major point is PvPers, to get this, are doing what they always do. It's the same killing and capping and defending. Nothing else. It's the same thing EVERY PvP player does.   In WvW it's the same thing. Whatever you're doing, capping a camp, taking a tower, escorting a dolyak keeps your participation up. You can follow a zerg tag or you can roam. It's what you normally do in WvW. It's what EVERYONE normally does on WvW. 

 

But for some reason in PvE, it's the only area in the game where we're funneled into one single specific type of content. Content that most players never touch, and you have to push yourself through it.  People who could tolerate raids, or liked the;m get their PvE armor, and many of us, PvE'ers like me, get their armor in WvW or PvP...which I don't enjoy.   I'm simply forced into the lesserr of evils from my point of view.  I'm not sure why anyone thinks that's good for the game.

The community has spoken. The bulk of us don't raid which likely means the bulk of us don't like raiding.  But you think that it's good practice to make it hard to get legendary armor in PvE, doing something most PvE people have already passed on.  So why do you think PvP players and WvW players can get it doing what they normally do, but PvE players have to jump through hoops. That sound fair to you?

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

not accessible to anyone  casual players

Fixed ... let's tone down the extremes here ... yes, people do play raids. Yes, it's more likely those people are not casual players. 

[Maikimaik.1974]

The most active LFG tabs are the raid ones, doesn't exactly seem like nobody plays them...

[Gehenna.3625]

7 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

The most active LFG tabs are the raid ones, doesn't exactly seem like nobody plays them...

Well, the OP in their zeal has exaggerated their claim of course, but not many people play them. When I see the LFG for raids I see people advertising their guilds, looking for a specific role for a group that is planning to raid on another day, people selling raids, etc. So that's an active LFG perhaps but it's mostly static. 

So it's not like other LFGs that have more turn-over in their messages. I mean fractals messages come and go because the groups fill up quicker. Same with meta's and world bosses etc. 

But to say that nobody plays raids is indeed an exaggeration.

[Vayne.8563]

11 minutes ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

The most active LFG tabs are the raid ones, doesn't exactly seem like nobody plays them...

Right but when you add up those LFG tabs, you'll find that all together, 10 people in each squad, there are likely more people at a single meta and there are metas going on all over the game.  Fractals have less looking for groups because the groups fill faster. It takes longer to fill a raid group so the raid LFGs stay up for longer. It's an indication of fewer people doing raids than fractals. And once you remove the people selling raids, you're left with far fewer people doing raids.  The fact that, at least in the US, there are often as many raid sellers as people doing raids would indicate there's a problem here. People are will to pay to skip content because the bulk of community doesn't like raiding.

On top of that, an  Anet dev said there aren't new raids in development because not enough people raid to support the format. It's the reason given for the introduction of strike missions. To give a ramp to raids. My guess is it's not working, or it doesn't work well.  Anet is the one who said there aren't enough people doing raids, or at least an Anet employee did.

So it's not that no one plays them, just a very small percentage of the community. Not enough a percentage of the community to continue to support them. The only -people who think people raid are raiders.

[Sobx.1758]

6 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

make raids casual and open world for players, make the easy mode auto join and make raids so people can join this mode with out a problem, you can lower the difficulty and  lower the loot depending of the difficulty.  hard core players are the  low bar off this game so make the casual players have a chance to play raids, another idea is too give players a pve way to have legendary armor, maybe raids or fractal armor or living world armor. 

It seems you are interested in world bosses and maaaybe strikes to the lesser extent. If that's the case, you are free to keep playing world bosses and strikes.

Saying that nobody plays them is false.

4 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

I have the gear and I have the experience but because of the way raids are implemented at the middle of a raid if some one dont like you they can kick you because a  guild mate is onlike, you dont know how many times I have try to do raids and because of the systema I havent finish any of theem.

Never happened to me and while it doesn't mean it couldn't happen to you, I'd say this is an isolated incident more than anything. If "someone's guildmate replacing you" was the actual problem, then you should forget about that one and continue playing. Odds are, it's not happening again anytime soon -if ever.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Mik.3401]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're on a team with five people and at low levels of PvP there's often no coordination. I'm not a PvP whiz or anything but I win about 50% of my game.  It's almost random because the sides are random.  It hasn't taken me that long to get a piece of PvP ascended armor, and I have to say, it's just time, nothing else. It's not skill.  It would take you about 3 times longer if you lost every game than if you won every game. That's it.  But you're not likely to lose every game because you're not the only one on your team.

I can play 3 PvP games a day and eventually have a piece of legendary armor, with very little investment.  But the major point is PvPers, to get this, are doing what they always do. It's the same killing and capping and defending. Nothing else. It's the same thing EVERY PvP player does.   In WvW it's the same thing. Whatever you're doing, capping a camp, taking a tower, escorting a dolyak keeps your participation up. You can follow a zerg tag or you can roam. It's what you normally do in WvW. It's what EVERYONE normally does on WvW. 

 

But for some reason in PvE, it's the only area in the game where we're funneled into one single specific type of content. Content that most players never touch, and you have to push yourself through it.  People who could tolerate raids, or liked the;m get their PvE armor, and many of us, PvE'ers like me, get their armor in WvW or PvP...which I don't enjoy.   I'm simply forced into the lesserr of evils from my point of view.  I'm not sure why anyone thinks that's good for the game.

The community has spoken. The bulk of us don't raid which likely means the bulk of us don't like raiding.  But you think that it's good practice to make it hard to get legendary armor in PvE, doing something most PvE people have already passed on.  So why do you think PvP players and WvW players can get it doing what they normally do, but PvE players have to jump through hoops. That sound fair to you?

Getting a piece of ascended armor is the very beginning of the road even for that legendary piece. If you plan to play 3 matches a day then it will take ages given almost no one is able to play everyday and it is not given to win. Stating it is little effort is debatable - depends if you want to rise in your rank or not.

I’m not saying pve players don’t deserve other mean of getting such set. I just think that getting a legendary armor for story or open world faceroll is equivalent to getting a set of legendary armor for playing unranked pvp games and not even trying.

I’d be all for reviving dungeons for instance or matching legendary armor achievements with harder strike missions. But for now it doesn’t seem like it would happen.

[Vayne.8563]

12 minutes ago, Mik.3401 said:

Getting a piece of ascended armor is the very beginning of the road even for that legendary piece. If you plan to play 3 matches a day then it will take ages given almost no one is able to play everyday and it is not given to win. Stating it is little effort is debatable - depends if you want to rise in your rank or not.

I’m not saying pve players don’t deserve other mean of getting such set. I just think that getting a legendary armor for story or open world faceroll is equivalent to getting a set of legendary armor for playing unranked pvp games and not even trying.

I’d be all for reviving dungeons for instance or matching legendary armor achievements with harder strike missions. But for now it doesn’t seem like it would happen.

With the tiny bit I PvP, having a legendary piece already means it takes time, but not effort.  I have one guy in my guild who loses most of his games and has a piece of armor. It requires no effort. More, it requires no coordination. Not a group of ten people that need to organize. No one can kick me out of a squad/game. I'm not dependent on anyone except a bunch of randoms. The point is, anyone can go it given time. So the idea it has to  be hard is wrong.  And it's ONLY in PvE that people are required to do something they don't normally do. So again, how is that fair?  I have a bunch of people slowly working on legendary armor in PvP and WvW and we're a PvE guild. That should tell you something right there.

It's nice that you enjoy raids and like them and think it's fine. But you are a tiny percentage of the player base.

[Borked.6824]

Raids are sufficiently suited for casual skill levels.  The real issue is the epidemic behavior for MMO players having a SEVERE fear of taking risks and not wasting time.  The difficulty is in getting the group and being content with what your group is doing.  Same with guilds, which by extension is part of the problem.  People just aren't participating in guilds. 

I personally don't have a schedule that is well suited for raiding, or for participating with a guild, so even though my skill level is well beyond the average player, I am simply out of the equation, and I know that, so I just deal with it and become a statistic while being content with my world content.  Not the way I'd like it to be, but reality is tough.  

[Mik.3401]

22 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

With the tiny bit I PvP, having a legendary piece already means it takes time, but not effort.  I have one guy in my guild who loses most of his games and has a piece of armor. It requires no effort. More, it requires no coordination. Not a group of ten people that need to organize. No one can kick me out of a squad/game. I'm not dependent on anyone except a bunch of randoms. The point is, anyone can go it given time. So the idea it has to  be hard is wrong.  And it's ONLY in PvE that people are required to do something they don't normally do. So again, how is that fair?  I have a bunch of people slowly working on legendary armor in PvP and WvW and we're a PvE guild. That should tell you something right there.

It's nice that you enjoy raids and like them and think it's fine. But you are a tiny percentage of the player base.

But… I don’t even do raids, for the same reasons you rightfully stated. I just don’t agree with your points on pvp legendary. 
If you play ranked without coordination, knowledge and interacting with group then good luck enduring that flame.

Yes, casual PvErs cannot make a legendary set by doing what they do and it is a problem if we consider endgame. I mentioned dungs but also fractals would be a great place for legendary armor. But adding legendary armor to story/OW I think would make it broken easy to get one. For the same reasons as the WvW armor and even more so. If that is the point you defend then the leggy could be done while watching Netflix - impossible in case of pvp. 

So in essence, if you mean legendary for instanced, group endgame content other than raids then I agree. Pvp legendary being awarded for doing the same mode all time is not a problem of legendary - it is a problem of PvP game mode being sh|t.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Mik.3401

[ThaKrulll.4150]

4 hours ago, Neosayayin.3498 said:

dont be a white knight the game is dying because a lot of  problems it has and one of the is this.

 

"The game is dying" They says while an expansion is currently being developed. 

[Gibson.4036]

This all has me remembering back nine years ago.

GW2 was envisioned as a different kind of MMO. An MMO for people who hate MMOs, if you will. It launched with exotics as BIS gear, and that was easily achieved shortly after hitting 80. There were no raids.

From my point of view, it seemed that this niche game, the game for people who don't like run of the mill MMOs, was too successful at launch. It not only got those of us looking for something different than the standard MMO model, it got a ton of the regular MMO crowd eager to try the new thing and take a break from their standard MMO homes.

Suddenly the forums were full of requests for raids and more "progression".

A lot of the people who were hoping GW2 would live up to its vision of being an oasis away from gear progression and elite content focused at a small portion of the player base argued that maybe this game just wasn't the game for those who desperately needed raiding and new gear to chase.

I remember the conversation going something like:

"But we love raids, we do it for the challenge!"

"Then you'll want better rewards."

"Well, if it's the hardest content shouldn't it get the best rewards? And people won't do it if they can get the same gear elsewhere!"

"But, I thought you did it for the challenge?"

Four months after launch, we got the first fractals, which were intended to satisfy the desire for endgame challenging PvE. We also got the first ascended gear. At the time, hey, you only really needed ascended for fractals, so no big deal, and it's just a few trinkets so you can do the whole agony hamsterwheel.

A year later, ascended weapons and armor. Two years after that, the first raids with HoT. Not to mention, open world content that really feels better with some ascended trinkets and a weapon or two. You can see in HoT the peak of ArenaNet deciding they needed to design for the skilled players who want challenge.

In response to raiders feeling that the development cycle is too protracted because of the split between fractals and raids, that's because both of those areas are supposed to be an answer to the same group of people. The "we need challenging endgame content" crowd. Put a team esclusively on raids, and one on fractals, and where do you take those extra creators? From WvW? PvP? Open world?

From launch, this game has had a tension between those who specifically came here because of the original vision of an MMO that was different, more casual, more community friendly and those who remember how much they enjoyed things like raiding in other games and want to find it here.

Both populations have legitimate ways they like to enjoy an MMO. The tragedy, IMO, is that GW2 has spent an awful lot of time trying to straddle many different types of play. ArenaNet had a clear vision in the beginning. Launch response seemed to honestly surprise them. More people came on than expected, and it seems they have spent a lot of time lurching between visions in order to retain as much as possible of that wide group. This has made for a less than satisfying experience for many communities, from casual to elite, because the shoe doesn't quite fit since it keeps getting measured to try and fit everyone.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Gibson.4036]

33 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

With the tiny bit I PvP, having a legendary piece already means it takes time, but not effort.  I have one guy in my guild who loses most of his games and has a piece of armor. It requires no effort. More, it requires no coordination. Not a group of ten people that need to organize. No one can kick me out of a squad/game. I'm not dependent on anyone except a bunch of randoms. The point is, anyone can go it given time. So the idea it has to  be hard is wrong.  And it's ONLY in PvE that people are required to do something they don't normally do. So again, how is that fair?  I have a bunch of people slowly working on legendary armor in PvP and WvW and we're a PvE guild. That should tell you something right there.

It's funny, I remember conversations with those who wanted raiding that saw highest tier gear as a way to keep people raiding. I can't say all raiders feel this way, but at least some do, that the carrot needs to be  there so that the game area they love doesn't die off.

The funny part is that I've seen so many WvW say the exact opposite. They dread the idea of WvW becoming the easiest way to get the high tier gear, because it means a flood of people just doing it for the carrot, not because they actually like the area.

Like others, I don't have the schedule that allows me to set aside guaranteed blocks of hours to commit to raiding. I can, however, jump into WvW and follow a squad or flip camps. I've gotten back into WvW recently, am enjoying it immensely, and actually feel like my skill has grown in just the last two weeks as I'm learning.

At the rate I play, it looks like it might take close to six months before I'll be able to get just one piece of legendary armor, but that's faster than the never I'd get legendary through raiding.

[Klowdy.3126]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You're on a team with five people and at low levels of PvP there's often no coordination. I'm not a PvP whiz or anything but I win about 50% of my game.  It's almost random because the sides are random.  It hasn't taken me that long to get a piece of PvP ascended armor, and I have to say, it's just time, nothing else. It's not skill.  It would take you about 3 times longer if you lost every game than if you won every game. That's it.  But you're not likely to lose every game because you're not the only one on your team.

I can play 3 PvP games a day and eventually have a piece of legendary armor, with very little investment.  But the major point is PvPers, to get this, are doing what they always do. It's the same killing and capping and defending. Nothing else. It's the same thing EVERY PvP player does.   In WvW it's the same thing. Whatever you're doing, capping a camp, taking a tower, escorting a dolyak keeps your participation up. You can follow a zerg tag or you can roam. It's what you normally do in WvW. It's what EVERYONE normally does on WvW. 

 

But for some reason in PvE, it's the only area in the game where we're funneled into one single specific type of content. Content that most players never touch, and you have to push yourself through it.  People who could tolerate raids, or liked the;m get their PvE armor, and many of us, PvE'ers like me, get their armor in WvW or PvP...which I don't enjoy.   I'm simply forced into the lesserr of evils from my point of view.  I'm not sure why anyone thinks that's good for the game.

The community has spoken. The bulk of us don't raid which likely means the bulk of us don't like raiding.  But you think that it's good practice to make it hard to get legendary armor in PvE, doing something most PvE people have already passed on.  So why do you think PvP players and WvW players can get it doing what they normally do, but PvE players have to jump through hoops. That sound fair to you?

I do like the idea of meta events giving a legendary route. If they made you some all of the major metas from at least HoT and on, and make world bosses part of it, that would require a fair amount of effort. Add a currency in, that drops from each event once a week, per account, and figure out how much items would cost if you got a full set in 6-9 months doing everything every week. I don't want gear handed to me, but I would like to eventually get the gear I want, doing the things I really like.

 

That said, I don't think this will ever happen for fear of other game modes losing popularity. I think ANet is scared that if open world meta events award legendary gear, no matter how much has to be done to acquire it, the draw for other content won't be nearly as high. I have a strong feeling PvP would turn into a ghost town if people weren't feeling compelled to do it for legendaries (myself included. I've enjoyed it more than I thought I would, and far more than I did when I was really bad, but I would totally farm metas and WBs if given the option). 

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And yet PVPers and WvWers can get legendary armor doing the stuff they usually do whether they're good at it or not, whether they're successful or not, whether they play that format or not. I have two pieces of legendary armor, one from WvW and one from PvP,  and I'm not great at either.  But for PvE no, it has to be hard? Why? Because some players say so? 

It's not a fact, or you couldn't get PvP legendary armor even if you lose every game.

I mean, I usually kill world bosses in groups of 10 or more.

[Entropo.1524]

the raid community got no one to blame other than our selfs for the low number of players playing in comparison to other game modes . gate keeping and elitism largely kept the content closed from players . im not sure if people use raids to boost their egos or so but most raid encouters are a far cry from what people speak of in term of difficulty . and u could even excell in them after a couple of runs 

[Cuks.8241]

6 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

...

That is all fine and true and I agree. But here are a few things.

The game is in the vast majority of content still that other kind of mmorpg. You don't need anything beyond exotic gear to play all those beautiful new maps. Anet really didn't put "awful lot of time" for content that doesn't fit to the initial model. They tried things, that is actually good and keeps the game fresh but we have literary years of breaks between content updates that don't fit the initial model. If you want to play the no vertical progression game, no trinity, it's there, it is being updated regularly and nothing is taking it away from you (like new tier of gear that would be required to play it).

Most if not all of these complaints are not about breaking the initial mold. They always come down to I want shinnies. Yes there is some content in game that breaks the initial models and requires group play, trinity, proper builds, all those things that come with "traditional" mmorpgs. That is really minor minor part of the game. If you don't like it, just ignore it. If 5 % of population play it, well it's worth it because Anet is not giving much thought into it. Just don't pretend any of these post are much beyond QQ for shinies.

[Linken.6345]

17 minutes ago, Entropo.1524 said:

the raid community got no one to blame other than our selfs for the low number of players playing in comparison to other game modes . gate keeping and elitism largely kept the content closed from players . im not sure if people use raids to boost their egos or so but most raid encouters are a far cry from what people speak of in term of difficulty . and u could even excell in them after a couple of runs 

Then get 9 others and start raiding mate, noone is stoping you.

Should be atleast 5-6 others in this very thread.

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Mik.3401 said:

But… I don’t even do raids, for the same reasons you rightfully stated. I just don’t agree with your points on pvp legendary. 
If you play ranked without coordination, knowledge and interacting with group then good luck enduring that flame.

Yes, casual PvErs cannot make a legendary set by doing what they do and it is a problem if we consider endgame. I mentioned dungs but also fractals would be a great place for legendary armor. But adding legendary armor to story/OW I think would make it broken easy to get one. For the same reasons as the WvW armor and even more so. If that is the point you defend then the leggy could be done while watching Netflix - impossible in case of pvp. 

So in essence, if you mean legendary for instanced, group endgame content other than raids then I agree. Pvp legendary being awarded for doing the same mode all time is not a problem of legendary - it is a problem of PvP game mode being sh|t.

A not so good PvPer that plays PvP will eventually get legendary armor period. Why is that not broken.  I'm a mediocre PvPer and I'm getting legendary armor, it's just taking me a while. So why shouldn't the same be true for open world PvE?  

PvP only shows commitment or you like that, but you're doing the same thing EVERY PvPer does. Are you tell me you couldn't make an open world PvE version that shows the same time/commitment?  Because  I think you can.

The difference between raid armor and PvP armor is the unique skin. So take the skin off the table and make it a non-unique skin. one that's easy to get. Make it take a long time doing what people want to do. It keeps people in the game, because they're not playing something they don't want.  Or have you never heard of people grinding through something they don't like and then walking away from the game because it's killed their love for the game.  Even even heard that said about the skyscale. 

There's no good reason to have two "pillars" of Guild Wars 2, PvP and WvW players get a legendary doing what they normally do and have PvE players jump through hoops. You're not talking about skill you're talking about time and they're not equal.