Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay -- better off removed.

[Nerve.9581]

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nerve.9581
Clarification.

[Strider Pj.2193]

As long as there is a target cap, people are going to run together.

 

And as long as people want to be near each other, they will gravitate towards one person (or a few) that make them more organized, thus generally more effective.

 

Take away the icon.  It won’t change people running together and following one or two people.  
 

What it WILL do, (and already does to a small extent) is make it so people looking for someone to run with, will leave as they won’t be able to identify people to be with on a map.

[Nerve.9581]

1 minute ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

blah blah blah

Did I not just give an example of how people actually behave without commander icons around to draw them like moths to a lamp? I'm not going to entertain your speculation when I can believe my own eyes.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nerve.9581

[Strider Pj.2193]

Just now, Nerve.9581 said:

Did I not just give an example of how people actually behave without commander icons around to draw them like moths to a lamp?

Sure.  And I gave you an example of what people will do as well in the absence of a lamp.

 

They did it before tags were common in WvW.

 

I mean, you can move to Maguuma as they generally run as an effective cloud without tags often.

 

I didn’t say it couldn’t happen.

 

Human nature will pull them together and follow one or two players.  With the ‘leader’ (since we can’t call them commanders) targeted so they know who to follow.

 

While you’re at it, why don’t you recommend banning the use of third party VOIP…

[Nerve.9581]

13 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

More speculation

You're making a large number of assumptions about the willingness of people to go out of their way to follow someone; you're effectively laying out a path of most resistance and asserting it's the default behavior when I can refute your speculation with the game I just participated in.

Getting on voice, finding a specific player to target over and over again, and even relocating them on a map for death runs is significantly more difficult without icons than just finding a contested zone where people are fighting and going to help. The second behavior is exactly what I saw. I'm reticent to continue debating someone who believes so strongly that people will always choose the most inconvenient method possible.

With icons, you get trains. I played a game with no icons, there were no trains. If you're going to argue against that, you need to convince me I'm blind.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nerve.9581

[Sviel.7493]

I've also seen that kind of gameplay arise in the absence of commanders, but I don't think that removing them entirely will mean we see that gameplay more often.  Many squads already run without an actual tag.

Commanders aren't just popular because it's easier to let them make your decisions for you.  There is also true power in numbers.  If you have a large enough or organized enough zerg, then it doesn't matter what the other people do--you're going to run over them and get handsomely rewarded for doing so.  At the same time, I think there is a place for large, commanded groups in WvW.  I wish they weren't so good at everything, but players should have the choice to group up and the tools to organize that if they so desire.

Rather than removing commander tags, it would be better to nudge the game towards allowing greater effectiveness elsewhere.  This way, players wouldn't have to choose between the sort of gameplay you witnessed and actually having an impact on the battlefield. 

[Nerve.9581]

10 minutes ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Ok.  
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Making speculative arguments to confirm beliefs while rejecting new external evidence was your move, not mine.

8 minutes ago, Sviel.7493 said:

Legit arguments

Yes, the game theory still incentivizes group play, but it doesn't seem to reach the scale that a universally visible icon does, and thus doesn't reach the level of degeneracy. Because of that smaller scale, of smaller squads roaming the map along with players just looking to jump in and have some fun, I think it in sum balances out. But again, conditioned on removing commander icons; that doesn't at all remove the ability for squads to form when they want. Like I argued with Strider, it just won't happen as the same scale when it's easier to find a battle and go to it.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Nerve.9581

[Zikory.6871]

33 minutes ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and...

I can confirm right now that if they removed tags, squads, even parties. The same people are still going to show up and stack on the person talking. No speculation, it's what would happen. That's how it worked before squads existed, break into parties and everyone put the red target on someone.  Squads, raid markers, cat tags, all QoL features for boon/buff priorities. 

[Reverence.6915]

People grouped up tagless before squads were a thing, people will group up after too. Playing as part of a tight knit group has its own fun

[Strider Pj.2193]

7 minutes ago, Zikory.6871 said:

I can confirm right now that if they removed tags, squads, even parties. The same people are still going to show up and stack on the person talking. No speculation, it's what would happen. That's how it worked before squads existed, break into parties and everyone put the red target on someone.  Squads, raid markers, cat tags, all QoL features for boon/buff priorities. 

 

2 minutes ago, Reverence.6915 said:

People grouped up tagless before squads were a thing, people will group up after too. Playing as part of a tight knit group has its own fun

Hmm..  According to the OP we are all wrong.  

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

I found a fun way to play the game! Therefore, please modify how everyone else plays to conform to my method! 

 

 

[Sviel.7493]

23 minutes ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Yes, the game theory still incentivizes group play, but it doesn't seem to reach the scale that a universally visible icon does, and thus doesn't reach the level of degeneracy. Because of that smaller scale, of smaller squads roaming the map along with players just looking to jump in and have some fun, I think it in sum balances out. But again, conditioned on removing commander icons; that doesn't at all remove the ability for squads to form when they want. Like I argued with Strider, it just won't happen as the same scale when it's easier to find a battle and go to it.

Removing the icons would probably reduce the scale a bit, but only on the pugmander side--that is, commanders with a bunch of random people joining them without a guild core.  Guild groups will be unchanged.  It would be a significant QoL loss for a fairly insignificant change in player behavior since pugmanders are already kind of a dying breed.

On the more practical side, I don't think you're ever going to convince anyone to actually do it.  It's trying to change player behavior by punishment rather than incentive--something that is never popular and rarely successful.  It especially won't fly with the people actually making the decisions as they are, as far as I can tell, all zerglings.  They've also stated that they support the current commander-centric playstyle--though they also said they want other styles of play to be viable.  It remains to be seen if they actually pull that off.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sviel.7493

[Knighthonor.4061]

This is not the way to handle this. People stack on squads because its the best path for rewards, since it grants the most progression. 

 

What WvW needs is more small scale objectives on the map that contribute to the war. Old AV in WoW had long battles and big fights as well but also had many small objectives that spread players out the zerg/turtle. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

5 hours ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time.

For someone who has reportedly played for a long time your recollection of olden days seem somewhat faltering. While the tag itself has always been around there used to be (and still are to some degree) quite alot of groups who run organised without it. Even up until fairly recently private groups would go "hidden tag" by simply not running a tag in their squad. A leader can drop and rejoin, and boom, the tag is gone but the squad exists.

Now there are some things to say about complacencies that the squad system may have brought about where people were more keen on organising themselves and being creative when they had to form their own parties. However, that's the squad system and not the tag itself. So if you envision organisation falling apart without a tag I fear that your eyes may deceive you.

I'm not sure what you expect, but every once in a while we get someone walzing in here suggesting these things and expecting things to devolve into some sort of roamy, cloudy preference that they have. Good groups are going to be good groups either way and while tools for organisation certainly sits in a span between advancement, equation, QoL and complacency, I certainly wouldn't call (pre-) organised groups degenerative because they can be far more complex than simple clouding (albeit that some squad norms today are somewhat lazy, but hey, that's just a reflection of the overall attention to the game mode).

The people who prefer to play alone or play-alone-together may be in the wrong game or the wrong genre of games all together.

We get the same kind of discussion appear from time to time when people mention "skill", competition, sport or attempt to discuss the esoterics of PvP. However, it is usually the same problem there: They fail to see MMO for what they are and they can't distinguish between differences in individual or team-oriented sports or games. For someone completely oblivious to football it just looks like a bunch of people chasing a ball and running into oneanother but it is still the largest sport in the world. Most things needs some level of spread and understanding to be appealing.

Edited September 26, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[God.2708]

5 hours ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings

Why is this the go to strawman of every anarchist fantasy clouder? Just because the tag just has to say 'press 1 and kill that idiot running around by themselves' doesn't mean they can't demonstrate skillful displays of teamwork in unison. Or is the solo violinist somehow always more impressive than the orchestra?
 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

It was like this back in the day when you had multiple tags on a map (sometimes 4-5), before "one tag or none."

Edited September 26, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[SweetPotato.7456]

I agree with this post. But I also have other views.

Sometime a tag is worse than having no tag, but not all tag are bad. We are definitely the minority, no one is going to listen. You will be label a troll, and the majority will hound you. Try saying what you say in WvW team and see what happens 😛

Especially those following a bad tag, because we have to understand that some players cannot do things without a tag.  It is as simple as that. They need it.  

BTW, I do not agree to the removal of the tag.

Edited September 26, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456
forgot a point i needed to make

[Anaktas.7390]

8 hours ago, Nerve.9581 said:

WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

 

No that is not what WvW should be lilke. Your view is totally wrong.

 

So lets remove organized combat? Lets have huge maps, objectives, a ton of players and three sides and invite anarchy to make WvW feel like what you said. Your view is totally wrong.

WvW is about war, and it's beauty lies in the organizational structure of its community and guilds. How being a community matters more than the individual, and how rewarding that feels.

 

You want roaming action? Guess what, you get that too if no commander acts, you just become a loot bag provider if your side has none and the enemy has..

[Tiawal.2351]

8 hours ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

 

You can clearly see that not everyone agrees with this. Sometimes may be true, but having more options is better, not having less. If we start removing what one of us or the other hates most, nothing will remain.

Instead we should suggest ways to improve these features, or the game mode itself in this case, since there will always will be groups wanting a coordination that requires a leader.

Stacking around the leader is because the range of boons, condi clears and so on on, but there can be a different way to play, with different builds that doesn't require stacking. It's up to the players and the most efficient way usually wins.

 

Since the the icon is optional, there can't be valid reasons to remove it. An option to hide it user side, yes, especially hiding troll tags.

[Hotride.2187]

Fight tags is what made me interested in wvw for the first time, as I've never had a similar game experience before. 2 clouds fighting is just meh.

You don't like it -> don't participate in it. Asking for its removal because you don't like it is just embarrassing.

[Cyninja.2954]

9 hours ago, Nerve.9581 said:

Bla bla bla

Commander tags where not alway available (in fact squads in general were not available for a long time).

Some of the game issues you are cross with existed before tags were introduced.

Basic logic and assumption: the behavior is unrelated to the commander tag.

Now that does not mean that commander tags are not reinforcing or supporting a certain playstyle, but it does disagree with the assumption that the removal of the commander tag will "fix" the issue.

Everything else is personal preference and/or interpretation what this game mode should be.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Cyninja.2954

[Dawdler.8521]

If having no tag promotes this "intelligent" play and WvW is already 90% spent having no tag... how exactly does that improve WvW by deleting it?

 

[Mazadard.5061]

As a player I like to be able to play with a large organised group with only one click. That feature alone make me love WvW so I definitly disagree with you. In general matter gw2 promote the possibility to easily join group for any content, and for that, the commandant feature is brilliant. While saying that I agree with adding some additionnal side objective for small squad or unirganised groups .@Nerve.9581

Edited September 26, 2021 by Mazadard.5061

[Nerve.9581]

Most of the replies since I last posted seem to consist of:

1. Group play will happen regardless. (I contend that it will never reach the level of 100-stack trains if you remove 1-click squadding and commander icons).
2. 1-click squadding and 100-stack trains is good gameplay. (You're insane if you believe this.)
3. I like being able to group up fast and have my hand held. (There's no saving you.)

Number 2 is probably the most egregious. The reason I called commander trains degenerate is specifically because they suppress and hide the best interactions and mechanics in GW2's class kits and gameplay, effectively removing the need for them in the first place. May as well give everyone in the stack a single "boom" key for all the depth of mechanical interactions on display. The experience I had without commanders brought out the best interactions and mechanics the game has to offer, showing off GW2's potential. It was like a roving landscape of SPvP fights, given the added context of varied terrain and siege objectives. Absolutely sublime.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Nerve.9581

[Kalocin.5982]

People would just link waypoints and locations in chat, also ping their spot in squad. Commander tags weren't quite a thing around launch when no one could afford them. How do you think we zerged back then? Lol