Why is roaming dead? what happened?

[Kolache.3964]

Thieves killed it for me.  For some reason I don't seem to mind quite as much if someone has more mobility than me.  I can deal with them mitigating more damage than me.  I can deal with them bursting harder than me.  I generally expect to lose when out-numbered.

 

...but GW2's take on thief and stealth just drove me nuts.  I remember getting excited when stealth traps were being introduced.. and 'sic em' was being introduced... and every time some effective counter was introduced it felt like anet had to make a "counter counter" for thieves.  The goal-post moving "every time they have to disengage you effectively win" argument has always sounded ridiculous to me.

 

I really loved WvWvW but I just couldn't help but feel that every other class matchup felt like checkers and fighting thieves felt like chess where you really just had to tune into your extensive thief knowledge and ESP to predict every moment for a chance to force a disengagement... it just blows my mind that, regardless of whether or not someone thinks this would be good design, that anyone would think this would be a fun design.

 

I still visit the forums periodically just hoping that something meaningful will change for the thief/stealth/counter design.  Hey blizzard released classic after so many years, stranger things have happened I suppose.

 

I would even play again if I could have a class/spec that was a hard counter to thieves/stealth (actually killing them, not just encouraging them to ignore me because my class/spec was more tedious to kill than others), even if that class/spec was a free kill for every other class/spec in the game.

 

I can only speak for myself but such is my hate for GW2 thieves and stealth.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 11/1/2021 at 2:43 PM, ASP.8093 said:

"Groups killed roaming." "Zergs killed roaming." "Thieves killed roaming." "Warclaw killed roaming."

At the center of this Venn diagram is a person who waypoints to citadel, runs directly to the nearest contested camp, dies to a single quick burst, and logs off for the day. Their dodge button is covered in cobwebs.

 

"Just dodge..." -- Oh yes, that magical dodge button that can solve all those problems....

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

46 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

 

"Just dodge..." -- Oh yes, that magical dodge button that can solve all those problems....

Of course not! You forgot about "Just use LoS", now combine these two and it solves all problems.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, Kolache.3964 said:

Thieves killed it for me.  For some reason I don't seem to mind quite as much if someone has more mobility than me.  I can deal with them mitigating more damage than me.  I can deal with them bursting harder than me.  I generally expect to lose when out-numbered.

 

...but GW2's take on thief and stealth just drove me nuts.  I remember getting excited when stealth traps were being introduced.. and 'sic em' was being introduced... and every time some effective counter was introduced it felt like anet had to make a "counter counter" for thieves.  The goal-post moving "every time they have to disengage you effectively win" argument has always sounded ridiculous to me.

 

I really loved WvWvW but I just couldn't help but feel that every other class matchup felt like checkers and fighting thieves felt like chess where you really just had to tune into your extensive thief knowledge and ESP to predict every moment for a chance to force a disengagement... it just blows my mind that, regardless of whether or not someone thinks this would be good design, that anyone would think this would be a fun design.

 

I still visit the forums periodically just hoping that something meaningful will change for the thief/stealth/counter design.  Hey blizzard released classic after so many years, stranger things have happened I suppose.

 

I would even play again if I could have a class/spec that was a hard counter to thieves/stealth (actually killing them, not just encouraging them to ignore me because my class/spec was more tedious to kill than others), even if that class/spec was a free kill for every other class/spec in the game.

 

I can only speak for myself but such is my hate for GW2 thieves and stealth.

As a thief, right now I feel like things are mostly fair outside of a couple of problematic build and kit combos. Asking for "something to be done" vaguely will and has lead to core thief being gutted and patched back together over time, better funneling thieves into that problematic build. If you don't like playing against Stealth, then just cry about it and move on, because stealth in this game is fair, or come up with a proper solution and map it out.

An effective counter to thieves is to not run out with a glass build meant for jumping runners out of spawn or hugging zergs. 

[Kolache.3964]

27 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

As a thief, right now I feel like things are mostly fair outside of a couple of problematic build and kit combos. Asking for "something to be done" vaguely will and has lead to core thief being gutted and patched back together over time, better funneling thieves into that problematic build. If you don't like playing against Stealth, then just cry about it and move on, because stealth in this game is fair, or come up with a proper solution and map it out.

An effective counter to thieves is to not run out with a glass build meant for jumping runners out of spawn or hugging zergs. 

 

I'm taking the passive approach, lurking and observing how the game changes over the years... assuming it's simply not designed for me at the moment.  Just currently sharing my opinions on what killed roaming for me in my regular tri-yearly post.  Carry on.

[kash.9213]

20 minutes ago, Kolache.3964 said:

 

I'm taking the passive approach, lurking and observing how the game changes over the years... assuming it's simply not designed for me at the moment.  Just currently sharing my opinions on what killed roaming for me in my regular tri-yearly post.  Carry on.

It's designed for everyone, don't be melodramatic. The game isn't at fault for you not wanting to play, even with some issues to troubleshoot. Play or don't, but don't stroll in as a non player asking for nerfs, what's wrong with you?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

2 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

It's designed for everyone, don't be melodramatic. The game isn't at fault for you not wanting to play, even with some issues to troubleshoot. Play or don't, but don't stroll in as a non player asking for nerfs, what's wrong with you?

A-net created broken mechanic, players abuse broken mechanic.
In simpler words: both developers and players are at fault here, welcome in reality Mr. I_Abuse_Unbalanced_Crap_Teef_Main.
His opinion has same value as yours, welcome in reality once again.

[bigo.9037]

10 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Yes, thats called escalation. Its literally what WvW is built for, what makes it playable and keeps it fun and unpredictable instead of being a single player game.

If you 1v1 someone and cant win you 2v1 him.

If you 2v1 him and still cant win you 3v1.

If you win 3v1, he brings 2 friends and win 3v3.

You bring two more and win 5v3. 

He bring a whole border zerg.

You call upon your zerg.

This is WvW yet people always seem to see something wrong with it. Is there always people around to counter the enemy? No. Because we're not 24/7 bots. But we still fight in WvW regardless.

Yea how about addressing the other issue i pointed to that kills roaming? the fact that the escalation literally forces people OFF OF roaming builds and into blob builds, thus meaning you are no longer roaming, you are blobbing. This is a balance issue.

And to address your point about escalation, is it worth to gather up X2 as many peeps to guarantee your winning chances if it means enemy team group will quit and do something else? then theres no more content. I'm not saying all escalation is bad, but i'm saying I personally see people who will stop playing as soon as enemy decides to pull up with X2 numbers with 1/3 or 1/2 of them playing support specs. 

I'm lucky enough to main a class that allows me to pick and choose my fights as well as have a somewhat viable blob build, so this doesn't affect me directly but i see people quit or go afk because of people bringing way too many ppl to kill the same small group over and over, and that means *I* also have less content.

Edited November 3, 2021 by bigo.9037

[kash.9213]

53 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

A-net created broken mechanic, players abuse broken mechanic.
In simpler words: both developers and players are at fault here, welcome in reality Mr. I_Abuse_Unbalanced_Crap_Teef_Main.
His opinion has same value as yours, welcome in reality once again.

Stealth isn't broken though. If they want to cry about something and call for nerfs, they can cover which build or kit is the problem they're running into. Otherwise, they're just some kitten crying for nerfs because they don't want to adjust like everyone else has to.

[suialthor.7164]

4 hours ago, kash.9213 said:

 If you don't like playing against Stealth, then just cry about it and move on, because stealth in this game is fair, or come up with a proper solution and map it out.

The "massive" list of skills that reveal: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

Fair would be if it was more accessible.  But I understand why people who main thief feel otherwise. 

[ASP.8093]

6 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

"Just dodge..." -- Oh yes, that magical dodge button that can solve all those problems....

I'm talking about situational awareness in general. 😎😎😎

[bigo.9037]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

Stealth isn't broken though. If they want to cry about something and call for nerfs, they can cover which build or kit is the problem they're running into. Otherwise, they're just some kitten crying for nerfs because they don't want to adjust like everyone else has to.

Thief has been the Meta roaming spec since launch. 
Sure, not all classes that use stealth are abusing it to the same extent, but D/P SA Dash needs to be either straight up deleted or heavily nerfed.

Edited November 4, 2021 by bigo.9037

[TheGrimm.5624]

I admit, I am still roaming and still find a good number on the other sides. Most servers still have have some roamers and havocs, some servers do tend more to run in larger bands and its seems some guilds that can run with a warband or better aren't found out by themselves much. That said still build all my builds as roamers and if possible with some group support if running with others for a bit. But I admit I am twisted and  will attack small havocs to see if I can drop some before they get me, and sometimes, it pays since they aren't expecting to have a roamer attack them either. I think you see less roamers also since total populations are also down some especially as we are between expansions right now and that's probably further impacted upon as some people take breaks before the expansion to try other things. That was always a danger of no attention to WvW, chance more people will need something new and getting very little changes over time hasn't helped.  But agree with the above, there is no one reason you will see less roamers and you less likely see roamers unless you are also out there roaming. 

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Yea how about addressing the other issue i pointed to that kills roaming? the fact that the escalation literally forces people OFF OF roaming builds and into blob builds, thus meaning you are no longer roaming, you are blobbing. This is a balance issue.

Thats called adapting to the situation. 

People do the same with condi vs power due to condi exponentially decreasing in efficiency the more enemies there are above 1v1.

Guess that means condi is dead too.

[Widmo.3186]

Q_Q teef so OP, pls delete. You know whats funny and why this comment might receive confused reactions? Its almost 2022 and you guys literally learnt nothing through all those years. Sad truth is that if you were at least average and played proper build, on most classes you should stalemate (because of stealth spam) or win against all but ~10-20 roaming teefs that actually know what theyre doing. You dont even see tryhard teef guilds anymore. But sure, instead of playing class that you have problems with to see what it does and how to counter it - you can go on forums and cry begging for heavy nerfs, just usual gw2 things. 

Yes, Id like to see SA traitline nerfed, but thats not the problem. We will go back to s/d meta and both you and I know whats gonna happen - Q_Q, so many ports, pls nerf sword 2 Q_Q. Its about mentality, not teef.

Imo what killed roaming except for people leaving the game in general? Cowards. People used to roam solo, look for duels, or even when roaming in bigger groups they roamed with DPS specs. Nowadays most roamers dont leave spawn without pocket healer - FB, tempest, scrapper etc. So I have a question, whats the difference between zerging and roaming nowadays (except for a scale)?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

11 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Q_Q teef so OP, pls delete. You know whats funny and why this comment might receive confused reactions? Its almost 2022 and you guys literally learnt nothing through all those years. Sad truth is that if you were at least average and played proper build, on most classes you should stalemate (because of stealth spam) or win against all but ~10-20 roaming teefs that actually know what theyre doing. You dont even see tryhard teef guilds anymore. But sure, instead of playing class that you have problems with to see what it does and how to counter it - you can go on forums and cry begging for heavy nerfs, just usual gw2 things. 

Yes, Id like to see SA traitline nerfed, but thats not the problem. We will go back to s/d meta and both you and I know whats gonna happen - Q_Q, so many ports, pls nerf sword 2 Q_Q. Its about mentality, not teef.

Imo what killed roaming except for people leaving the game in general? Cowards. People used to roam solo, look for duels, or even when roaming in bigger groups they roamed with DPS specs. Nowadays most roamers dont leave spawn without pocket healer - FB, tempest, scrapper etc. So I have a question, whats the difference between zerging and roaming nowadays (except for a scale)?

Reality is that Teef have too many tools and stealth gives far too high advantage over enemies. Teef used pistol 5 and gained stealth, you smart 300IQ person will go to that circle and 11111 outside it to "maybe" hit it. the reality is, Teef in the moment he gains stealth can: 
a) run away from combat completely
b) get behing xyz object obscuring your vision and just wait for cd without even camping stealth, while you still massage that circle
c) get behind you and just dps the kitten out of you

d) go to kitchen and make a sandwich

e) combo that circle again without being within range of your attacks
In simpler words, you still didn't gain a kitten against teef even though you used your 300IQ brain to "counter"(as some people may claim here).
Doesn't matter how much you try to sugarcoat that, broken mechanic will be still broken, doesn't matter how tryhard you defend it. Teef MUST screw-up hard to die, while other classes will simply die if they screw even 1 dodge(or game will simply refuse to work properly and you get hit even on your invuln), teef can just stealth and go "I'm outta here, kthxbye".

[Widmo.3186]

18 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Reality is that Teef have too many tools and stealth gives far too high advantage over enemies. Teef used pistol 5 and gained stealth, you smart 300IQ person will go to that circle and 11111 outside it to "maybe" hit it. the reality is, Teef in the moment he gains stealth can: 
a) run away from combat completely
b) get behing xyz object obscuring your vision and just wait for cd without even camping stealth, while you still massage that circle
c) get behind you and just dps the kitten out of you

d) go to kitchen and make a sandwich

e) combo that circle again without being within range of your attacks
In simpler words, you still didn't gain a kitten against teef even though you used your 300IQ brain to "counter"(as some people may claim here).
Doesn't matter how much you try to sugarcoat that, broken mechanic will be still broken, doesn't matter how tryhard you defend it. Teef MUST screw-up hard to die, while other classes will simply die if they screw even 1 dodge(or game will simply refuse to work properly and you get hit even on your invuln), teef can just stealth and go "I'm outta here, kthxbye".

Read again my comment, thats exactly what I said. You dont need 300iq, in most cases 100iq is enough to stalemate vs bad permastealth users and somehow people ego wont allow it, they must either kill or they mentaly lost that matchup. And Im not defending it, look above, I literally said Id love to see SA traitline nerfed because d/p is just straightup less fun than s/d in most cases, but thats not the problem. People will always hate teef, no matter what.
I play the game maybe once per X weeks and instead of metaslaving teef I run core dd ele, in 1v1 situations nowadays >90% of teefs are just not competent enough to make them dangerous. Rest are either knowing what to do or play DE (which is hardcounter for obvious reasons). So if retired top weaver on 2012 spec can survive BS/HS spam, Im certain average skilled player can do as well on PoF spec. There you have it, I linked it in similar thread few months ago, its embarassing how average teef fights nowadays, and the worst part is that its not a total pve pleb - food, dodge jump etc.

Also, the statement about screwing 1 dodge...Really? Sustain soulbeasts, previous condi rev, bunker condi necros etc. etc. There are lots of builds that are forgiving way too much, teef is just one of them. Go ahead, be my guest and nerf stealth completly and see what happens, I assure you people wont stop crying because its not about mechanic, its about mentality for last 9 years.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

1 hour ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Read again my comment, thats exactly what I said. You dont need 300iq, in most cases 100iq is enough to stalemate vs bad permastealth users and somehow people ego wont allow it, they must either kill or they mentaly lost that matchup. And Im not defending it, look above, I literally said Id love to see SA traitline nerfed because d/p is just straightup less fun than s/d in most cases, but thats not the problem. People will always hate teef, no matter what.
I play the game maybe once per X weeks and instead of metaslaving teef I run core dd ele, in 1v1 situations nowadays >90% of teefs are just not competent enough to make them dangerous. Rest are either knowing what to do or play DE (which is hardcounter for obvious reasons). So if retired top weaver on 2012 spec can survive BS/HS spam, Im certain average skilled player can do as well on PoF spec. There you have it, I linked it in similar thread few months ago, its embarassing how average teef fights nowadays, and the worst part is that its not a total pve pleb - food, dodge jump etc.

Also, the statement about screwing 1 dodge...Really? Sustain soulbeasts, previous condi rev, bunker condi necros etc. etc. There are lots of builds that are forgiving way too much, teef is just one of them. Go ahead, be my guest and nerf stealth completly and see what happens, I assure you people wont stop crying because its not about mechanic, its about mentality for last 9 years.

Great video showing how Teef must screw-up to actually die, in reality decent Teef would just sit out Ele easily and murder it.
Stalemate doesn't give you anything beside wasted time and since you can't kill it he'll endlessly reset and fight you over and over again until you die. Now let's change location into your own keep that have 1 enemy Teef inside, tell me, how "stalemate" helps you? You can't kill it, he can't kill it, wow gg you lost nothing, reality is that you still have Teef in your keep that can portal more people inside, add some stealth and you have quite a problem right there.
There are broken builds, but they don't have that kind of reset potential like a Teef with stealth and ports.
Complains will always happen if the design of X class is kitten, that's a fact, look how people love Mirage, I wonder why is that, oh right, toxic design, same goes for Teef.

[Morwath.9817]

Personaly, when I solo roam and I see Thief or Mesmer I just turn my back and walk away.

[Kolache.3964]

5 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

. . . in most cases 100iq is enough to stalemate vs bad permastealth users and somehow people ego wont allow it, they must either kill or they mentaly lost that matchup.

 

IMO, playing against a "bad" anything should typically result in their death rather than a stalemate.  Especially if they already expended the advantage of choosing the fight.  No player of any class actually wants to die, given the choice.

[kash.9213]

15 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Thief has been the Meta roaming spec since launch. 
Sure, not all classes that use stealth are abusing it to the same extent, but D/P SA Dash needs to be either straight up deleted or heavily nerfed.

I agree with that, or to avoid a straight nerf that would once again nerf the rest of Thief as consequence, bust up the synergy between the kit and the build as long as the kit remains stacked compared to others.

Edited November 4, 2021 by kash.9213

[Burial.1958]

22 hours ago, suialthor.7164 said:

The "massive" list of skills that reveal: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

Fair would be if it was more accessible.  But I understand why people who main thief feel otherwise. 

Mostly every T2,  T3 Tower and the guards at the flags have reveal too. 

Ps: Thief is fine.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[suialthor.7164]

3 hours ago, Grebcol.5984 said:

Mostly every T2,  T3 Tower and the guards at the flags have reveal too. 

Ps: Thief is fine.

You mean those things you see on the map and can plan accordingly?  It is almost like they have to use strategy in some situations. 

Ps: Spammable invisibility is not fine.  

[Sylvyn.4750]

So last night, 5 of us roamers ran to our T3 north camp to defend, and found a single mesmer.  It took us about 10 minutes of chasing it across the map to finally kill it, and it wasn't just running away the whole time, it would attack and fade, attack and fade, throwing out clones and putting up shields all along the way.  Afterwards, one of our group commented, "Chasing mesmers and thieves is my favorite minigame in WvW".  If two classes can create an entire game within a game, then clearly there is a disturbance in the Force...😉

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

So last night, 5 of us roamers ran to our T3 north camp to defend, and found a single mesmer.  It took us about 10 minutes of chasing it across the map to finally kill it, and it wasn't just running away the whole time, it would attack and fade, attack and fade, throwing out clones and putting up shields all along the way.  Afterwards, one of our group commented, "Chasing mesmers and thieves is my favorite minigame in WvW".  If two classes can create an entire game within a game, then clearly there is a disturbance in the Force...😉

5 of you had nothing like Basilik Venom and pulls? I hope they got that camp.