Why is roaming dead? what happened?

[frareanselm.1925]

I love roaming with thief or mesmer, there's nothing more satisfying... but ultimately I'm gonna quit

I've been playing is Kodash, Desolation, and Baruch Bay, and I dont know if it's the same in other servers but I hardly ever find 1v1 or 1v2 fights (except the typical zone between the 2 pillars next to the guard).

I like defending the camps I capture, but people seem to not care it and let everything be captured and jump to the next point (just participation farming).

Then 4, 5 enemies come and I cannot defend it against them and is super frustrating.  I've followed the zerg in the past with other zerg support classes and I find it very boring, following the com like sheeps, I dont find satisfaction in it.

Also, I've been thinking about joining a roaming guild, but my current job doesnt allow me so much free time and going to bed late.

[displayname.8315]

Check back on Nov 12th.  WvW be dead except for the participation farmers.

[mistsim.2748]

In t2-t3 NA I still see lots of roaming happening. 

That being said, if ANet wants this playstyle to live, they have to create content around it and incentivize with food rewards. It's that simple. Right now running around farming Dolyaks and clearing camps gives me nothing if I'm at Tier 6 participation already. They just need to come up with better content that incentivizes small group play.

[Xenesis.6389]

Various things have killed it over the years, probably mostly from broken specs or stealth and then the support.

Most people roam in groups now because of the various reasons, or because don't care to git gud on their own.

A bag is a bag whether it's from killing someone by yourself or with five others, is the mentality these days, and recap in 5mins is not a big deal.

[ASP.8093]

3 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I like defending the camps I capture, but people seem to not care it and let everything be captured and jump to the next point (just participation farming).

Then 4, 5 enemies come and I cannot defend it against them and is super frustrating.  I've followed the zerg in the past with other zerg support classes and I find it very boring, following the com like sheeps, I dont find satisfaction in it.

There are builds that can usefully take on 4-5 people, especially for Thief or Mesmer. That doesn't mean you're gonna go in and crush 5 people at once. The trick is that you have to pull them apart a bit — you're not fighting 4-5 at the same time, you're picking on 1 while they have maybe 1 additional ally in range to help them, and the other 3 are off being dumb around the corner. This requires some finesse but camp defense makes it much easier since half your enemies will tunnel-vision on killing NPCs the second you take two steps away from them. (Importantly, though, you will not be able to hold the camp against 4-5 once the circle is up — your goal is to whittle them down before that.)

More generally, you can focus on engaging groups with an eye for getting the most value possible before peeling away. Sometimes that means taking a 1v3, stomping a single opponent, and then disengaging. Sometimes that means harassing a larger group when they're preoccupied, throwing Siege Disablers, just generally being a massive menace who's hard to pin down. (Last night I managed to poke a group of 20 sieging Bay, got 4 zerglings to peel off after me, and then turned that into 4 kills, which was enough to give the PUGs defending it even numbers when they engaged a moment later. I am a moderately skilled player at best.)

The other thing you can do is start roaming with a friend or two. You don't have to be constantly hugging each other, 2v1ing every solo player you come across — just move in the same general direction and come together when a larger fight presents itself.

Edited October 23, 2021 by ASP.8093

[asterix.9614]

What? I have been roaming for donkey's years in deso and I find plenty of 1vs1/2/3 quite easily. Only thing is I am now at a stage that I get bored and leave if an enemy decides to just stand there as I probably interrupted them doing their daily and they didn't plan of fighting. I don't know, maybe change game modes or take a break from gw2, roaming alone for a long time can sometimes feel a tad bit lonely and boring combing through the same maps quietly, uttering one or two sentences when a zerg decides to attack your stuff. Also, like you I find following a tag mind numbingly boring and pointless, maybe why I only have a few friends playing gw2 nowadays XD

Edited October 23, 2021 by asterix.9614

[JTGuevara.9018]

14 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I love roaming with thief or mesmer, there's nothing more satisfying... but ultimately I'm gonna quit

I've been playing is Kodash, Desolation, and Baruch Bay, and I dont know if it's the same in other servers but I hardly ever find 1v1 or 1v2 fights (except the typical zone between the 2 pillars next to the guard).

I like defending the camps I capture, but people seem to not care it and let everything be captured and jump to the next point (just participation farming).

Then 4, 5 enemies come and I cannot defend it against them and is super frustrating.  I've followed the zerg in the past with other zerg support classes and I find it very boring, following the com like sheeps, I dont find satisfaction in it.

Also, I've been thinking about joining a roaming guild, but my current job doesnt allow me so much free time and going to bed late.

 

OP, you're not alone. I find the decline of roaming and small/mid scale combat and the rise and prevalence of zergs very sad. I DETEST that wvw has become mostly zerg vs zerg. I hate everything involved: the AoE bombs, the portals, following commanders, the mindless "meta" busted boon-spam builds, and more importantly the fact that there is no inherent in-game counter to them. It honestly doesn't feel like an epic battle, it's a gigantic lag fest. This is a big reason why I LOVE no-downed-state events, they're a BIG equalizer. Open-world pvp, I feel, can be so much more than just massive blobs fighting in one place while other places are empty.

[Sansar.1302]

Hate that wvw have mainly become zerg vs zerg , all types of fights should exist in wvw

I belive the big nerf to strike damage  is the main reason  and warclaw is the second reason., this is becuse smaler grps or solos need to kill fast to get any kills at all, else back upp will come and now with warclaw that happends way to fast.

 

And condi how is it ok that in wvw i can get 5k bleed tick 3 k poison tics   and 2 k burn (10k a sec total ) at the same time from only using a 1 utilety and a few weapon skills but cant eaven with full maurader land a 6 k maul. 

 

This is same problem with all classes not only my main ( ranger ) they do a ton of condi dmg if specced for it but no one have decent strike dmg anymore.

 

[Zizou.2358]

Because you can die from boredom? 

[Dawdler.8521]

42 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

And condi how is it ok that in wvw i can get 5k bleed tick 3 k poison tics   and 2 k burn (10k a sec total ) at the same time from only using a 1 utilety and a few weapon skills but cant eaven with full maurader land a 6 k maul. 

Oh. That one utility doing 30 bleed stacks, 15 poison stacks and 5 burn stacks with 2500 condi damage?

Yeah I use that all the time too. 

[Antycypator.9874]

Some people have no interest to fight other players if you they could just go, take a camp and get that participation needed for rewards. Going into random fight stops them for literally nothing.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Depends if you're talking solo or group roaming. When solo, mobility based builds like core S/D are of limited use now warclaw is a thing because half the group can keep you in combat while the others chase you down on warclaw, and a lot of the old high spike builds lack the punch to justify how squishy they are now. In duos or small groups your allies can cover for you when you get hit hard, which means squishier builds can be more viable than what they would be when running solo. Add to that the number of support builds that are nigh unkillable for solo players unless you specifically build to kill them and you'll see why solo roaming in particular has diminished considerably. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

I think I'd disagree with most comments made in this thread so far.

I think a word of caution is due to begin with: WvW can be seen as a mode with several sub-modes. These sub-modes are different but coexist under the overarching system(s). Sometimes you see players or groups playing cross-mode or cross-scale but that has almost always been reserved for few groups that can carry themselves over into it ("skill" differences has been a determining factor). It is rare, but good, since it opens up for more content. However, it is important to underline, again, that the life of these submodes coexist in an eco-system but are normally different.

For example, roaming or pickups do not necessarily take from oneanother or compensate for the other (while crossmoding is rare and tends to add more positivity than negativity, in my experience; eg., ganking, pocketing or fighting-down scale tend to be determined by balance more so than organisation; ie., pocket healing or small-group roaming profilerating in small-scale is driven by poor solo-small class/build balance and ganking more so than to gank - tldr: it's the result, not the cause). The health of roaming is somewhat exclusively determined by the health of small-scale goals, balance and pools.

With that said, pick your poison, I guess:

1. Overall lack of attention to WvW and it's overall goals, objectives and eco-systems

2. Overall lack of ambition and gravitation toward extremes (small-large), making cross-scaling rarer because it requires ambition (fighting up) and is more sensitive to healthy goals (havoc-capping etc.)

3. More extreme balance/matchup differences between scales or submodes (builds for different things drifting apart; in vanilla 1 heal, 1 cleanse, 1 reveal, 1 cc, 1 rip, 1 boon etc., were all more impactful; now there is more of everything and that compounds into specialistions where sometimes even unique class traits/mechanics are needed to counteract certain things and that ultimately splits roaming- and eg., pickup-builds further apart making content-matching more difficult when caught out of their element)

4. Specific poor class/build balance at small scale (particularily with "seeing" opponents, making it seem more deserted than it may be; generally there are fewer roamers out there who invite to making themselves opened up on)

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by subversiontwo.7501

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

1. Overall lack of attention to WvW and it's overall goals, objectives and eco-systems

2. Overall lack of ambition and gravitation toward extremes (small-large), making cross-scaling rarer because it requires ambition (fighting up) and is more sensitive to healthy goals (havoc-capping etc.)

3. More extreme balance/matchup differences between scales or submodes (builds for different things drifting apart; in vanilla 1 heal, 1 cleanse, 1 reveal, 1 cc, 1 rip, 1 boon etc., were all more impactful; now there is more of everything and that compounds into specialistions where sometimes even unique class traits/mechanics are needed to counteract certain things and that ultimately splits roaming- and eg., pickup-builds further apart making content-matching more difficult when caught out of their element)

4. Specific poor class/build balance at small scale (particularily with "seeing" opponents, making it seem more deserted than it may be; generally there are fewer roamers out there who invite to making themselves opened up on)

 

You forgot option 5:

Nothing has changed, roaming is fine, its just you.

[subversiontwo.7501]

34 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

You forgot option 5:

Nothing has changed, roaming is fine, its just you.

Well, things certainly have changed.

However, I would agree with you if the sentiment is rather that things may not be as bleak or dire as some make it out to be (or that there are no ways to create or find content if you put some effort in).

I would say those are two separate discussions though.

[apharma.3741]

19 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Various things have killed it over the years, probably mostly from broken specs or stealth and then the support.

Most people roam in groups now because of the various reasons, or because don't care to git gud on their own.

A bag is a bag whether it's from killing someone by yourself or with five others, is the mentality these days, and recap in 5mins is not a big deal.

To add to this mounts have made everyone as fast ooc as a thief and is harder to stop unless you're packing a lot of damage or outnumber the person, the latter is a die with or without mounts. It also means you get outnumbered much quicker now.

This in turn has meant more people are able to run "zerg" classes in "roaming" and no longer worry about not being able to get away. This means I see more guards and necros....much more necros actually because there's less drawbacks for them now, even a duo necro and support is hard to kill and can choose their fights much better now than in core.

Then we have build templates adding onto the above where press 1 button and you go from zerg support to meme 1 shot DH/burn guard or  basically any of the face roll necro varients around.
Honestly though I'd say mounts and the shockingly bad balance that is resulting in necro being so strong for so little effort is what's stiffled a lot of the fun of roaming which was playing different builds and having moderately fair fights. It doesn't help that much of the feedback from select players that is directly sent to Devs is very biased and has been mainly focused around zerg and GvG with little consideration to raoming ("roaming's dead LOL").
Before someone misreads that I'm not saying all players giving that direct feedback are evil and want to kill roaming just that they may not appreciate the impact what they ask has for others and for the greater dynamic of play outside their style.

Edited October 24, 2021 by apharma.3741

[Dawdler.8521]

6 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

To add to this mounts have made everyone as fast ooc as a thief and is harder to stop unless you're packing a lot of damage or outnumber the person, the latter is a die with or without mounts.

Except pretty much everyone has it. 

Instead, I've seen people getting lazier and lazier when it comes to intercepting enemies and roamers. The roamers are there, it's just that the "roamers" nowadays are slower than slugs nailed down to a wall. kittens sake I've given 5 kitten minutes warning sometimes on small groups - maybe 2-3 people - coming towards or attacking an objectives. And no one comes to help. At best maybe 1 other person - often a familiar roamer.

You'd think that oh this means the border is dead? LOL! ... No. You go to a camp or something near the enemies you cant beat because they're too many and there's 10 kittening "roamers" waiting for a 2 minute timer to expire.

But noooooo... it's mounts. Because of course it is. Cant possibly be the kitten players.

[JTGuevara.9018]

29 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except pretty much everyone has it. 

Instead, I've seen people getting lazier and lazier when it comes to intercepting enemies and roamers. The roamers are there, it's just that the "roamers" nowadays are slower than slugs nailed down to a wall. kittens sake I've given 5 kitten minutes warning sometimes on small groups - maybe 2-3 people - coming towards or attacking an objectives. And no one comes to help. At best maybe 1 other person - often a familiar roamer.

You'd think that oh this means the border is dead? LOL! ... No. You go to a camp or something near the enemies you cant beat because they're too many and there's 10 kittening "roamers" waiting for a 2 minute timer to expire.

But noooooo... it's mounts. Because of course it is. Cant possibly be the kitten players.

I'm not going to lie...I get a little sad when I see 10-20 plus people waiting on RI for THREE minutes. I'm just sitting there thinking: "I could go to the other camp when there is an RI of 1 minute!...what am I doing here?!..." 

[GutterRat.1269]

The mounts haven't done roaming any favours, I'll say that.

[primatos.5413]

Anet balance logics happened 😞

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 10/24/2021 at 1:57 AM, Sansar.1302 said:

And condi how is it ok that in wvw i can get 5k bleed tick 3 k poison tics   and 2 k burn (10k a sec total ) at the same time from only using a 1 utilety and a few weapon skills but cant eaven with full maurader land a 6 k maul. 

It's called cleansing.  Look into it.

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/23/2021 at 6:26 PM, frareanselm.1925 said:

Then 4, 5 enemies come and I cannot defend it against them and is super frustrating. 

So you think roaming is dead because more enemies can come and you don't like it?

I don't see how that was ever any different or how that makes roaming dead.

[ollbirtan.2915]

16 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Except pretty much everyone has it. 

Instead, I've seen people getting lazier and lazier when it comes to intercepting enemies and roamers. The roamers are there, it's just that the "roamers" nowadays are slower than slugs nailed down to a wall. kittens sake I've given 5 kitten minutes warning sometimes on small groups - maybe 2-3 people - coming towards or attacking an objectives. And no one comes to help. At best maybe 1 other person - often a familiar roamer.

You'd think that oh this means the border is dead? LOL! ... No. You go to a camp or something near the enemies you cant beat because they're too many and there's 10 kittening "roamers" waiting for a 2 minute timer to expire.

But noooooo... it's mounts. Because of course it is. Cant possibly be the kitten players.

OMG this. So true....or 10 ppl waiting for a kitten harpy to spawn - not caring there is a small battle going right in from of them! 

[Aeolus.3615]

Actually ive found more players  trying to go  solo ,  issue here is that most i found  do  300-1k   damage  o  assume  most are traiblazer  and similiar to minstrells or very  defensive stats.... 

GS guardians that do no damage and  QQ when u absord   their CC  and sword skills ...  (most guardians dont  know how  easy its to absord some of their  skills).

Deadeyes doing  max  2k   damage ....

Warriors 300 damage  on  100Blades...

Minstrells mesmers

Useless Condi heralds.. w/o a team to get carried.

No  damage weavers but are unkilable if one  doesnt   have  boon rip  and high damage.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[gloflop.3510]

Roaming is not dead. However, roaming suffers from a huge problem called "class balance". Way too often the outcome of a fight is pre-determined by the classes which are fighting each other.